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  #1  
Unread 10-06-2014, 03:29 AM
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Trying to Understand Squares

I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!

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Unread 10-06-2014, 07:37 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Delineate Venus, by herself....sign, house, motion, position relative to Sun...and condition of its ruler. Also examine the aspects she beholds, other than her square to Moon, and see how they affect her behavior.
Do the same for the Moon.

Now, rather than vague and generalized astrological symbols you can deal with actual personality traits that pertain exclusively to you. Now study the square between Moon and Venus. And keep in mind that we must always take the whole chart into consideration; nothing stands alone.

Venus is the Power of Appreciation. She rules our personal values, which determine what we are attracted toward and/or find repellant. All planets have the capacity to exhibit two faces.

In your chart Venus is "in her Fall" (Virgo, sign opposing Pisces, the Exaltation of Venus. Look up the word "fall" in your dictionary. It will explain the fundamental nature of this condition.). She is also in the Eighth House, one of the three principal "houses of misfortune" (add Sixth and Twelfth). She is thus, before looking at any other factors, doubly afflicted. These two primary conditions of Venus in your chart will provide a wealth of information about the individualized nature of Venus (appreciation and therefore personal values, which determine what/who we are attracted to -- the connections we are drawn toward [as well as what you tend to avoid, are repelled by]. The planet of "harmony" can just as easily be the lady of "disharmony". Which prevails depends on the conditioning of Venus -- every chart factor that affects her. Beauty can become ugliness -- Venus holds the potential for either or both.

Moon is in the unfortunate Twelfth. (The two planets are square by sign but not by house). So, both of these planets, which happen to be in square aspect, are found in houses that cause difficulty, sadness.

Virgo and Sagittarius are Common signs. They are in natural square to each other. Therefore, study the Qualities (or at least the Common or Mutable Quality). Both Moon and Venus operate primarily by "adapting the self to meet changing conditions" -- they are flexible, responsive to the momentary, They are concerned with social relationships and your place or function within them. But each of these signs does this in very different ways, hence the blockage, obstruction, delay and difficulty of the square aspect. The Qualities (Modes) in astrology operate on the external plane fundamentally.

I wonder what this "stellium" looks like. Is it really a stellium? The "old" (tried and true) definition of a stellium is "Four or more planets in one sign (or house), at least two of which are not Sun, Mercury or Venus." Stellium by sign is much more potent than stellium by house alone because of the special emphsis put on Quality and Element. The stricture on Sun, Mercury and Venus is in place because these planets are constant companions often found together. What we are looking for when we designate a stellium is "execptional emphasis" to such degree as to become an overpowering force in the personality.
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  #3  
Unread 10-06-2014, 08:20 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Well all planets, asteroids and fixed stars are supposed to represent facets of our personality, character, strengths, weaknesses and abilities.

So a square is in a way "worse" than an opposition, but then it merely represents a challenge a native can overcome in his or her lifetime. Whilst it is bad, it still like all things in life is something to learn from and surmount.

Even trines and conjunctions between benefic planets (say Sun/Venus or Moon/Uranus) have negative parts to them. Nothing in life is wholly good or wholly bad, depends on the scenario and to some degree how we interpret it.
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Unread 10-06-2014, 08:29 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Originally Posted by ukdesifem View Post
So a square is in a way "worse" than an opposition, but then it merely represents a challenge a native can overcome in his or her lifetime. Whilst it is bad, it still like all things in life is something to learn from and surmount.
IMO, you can work through a square by just trying harder. You see it coming, you know what youare up against.

With an opposition, you generally can't see it at all unless its part of a T-Square(or you either are an astrologer or you employ one). Most people don't solve their oppositions until mid life and often not at all. This is why they call it push-pull: the assumption is that you can't solve it, you just go back and forth.

And if they do work on it, and they do find exactly what it is, and where it is, they cannot simply work harder. IMO, oppositions require a change of consciousness, you have to change how you think about the circumstance of the opposition. The push-pull part comes from people trying to solve oppositions by pushing harder. That simply won't work; no matter how hard you push it, it pushes back with the same power you pushed into it.

Oppositions have no silver bullet solutions. They are always complicated solutions to complicated problems.

IMO, a less powerful-less high friction opposition trumps a square any day. I'd much rather have to deal with squares than oppositions.
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  #5  
Unread 10-07-2014, 09:41 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Okay... I got several different answers, and I don't think I'm really any closer to understanding squares. Please keep in mind, I'm an astrology learner, and what I'm learning is choice-centered, evolutionary astrology. If you have a traditional astrology perspective, it's even harder for me to understand because it's a dialect of the astrology language that I don't speak.

@greybeard: the definition of stellium that I was taught is three or more planets, which can include the sun and/or moon, in the same sign or the same house. Obviously, there's another definition, and no, by that definition, it's not a stellium. However, it looks like that's just a question of semantics. Even if we don't call my sun/Mercury/Venus combination a stellium, it still gives me some concentration of energies in the eighth house, and even if we do call it a stellium, it's not as strong a concentration as it would be if I had additional planets in that eighth house. So either way, we're getting at the same thing.

But the questions I posted here to ask are about squares. Maybe it would be simpler to break it down this way:

1. How can planets be at cross purposes if their whats are quite compatible? How would a square between them make their whats incompatible?

and

2. If there's a square between a sign and its native house, how does that put them at cross purposes? Maybe my sun/north nodes square isn't a such a good example, so for simplicity's sake, I'll make it a theoretical question: if there's a square between a planet in Scorpio and a planet in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, what does that really do? Eighth house and Scorpio should have a compatible message, shouldn't they? But if they're squared, what does that do? Does it make the parts of the psyche that they rule in conflict in some way?

I used my own birth chart as an example because that's what I've been working with, but I'm not asking for interpretations of my chart specifically. If any of you can think of examples from your own birth chart, or some other chart that you've seen, or even a good hypothetical example, that would be very helpful, too. For that matter, on the question about squares between signs and their native houses, it could be any square involving any sign and its native house.

There's also more I'd like to ask about squares, but this is a complex enough question already, so I'll leave it there for now.

Last edited by Osamenor; 10-07-2014 at 09:42 PM. Reason: typo
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Unread 10-08-2014, 04:46 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!
This is probably completely unrelated to what you are asking, but I'm having a slight problem with squares as well but for reasons concerning orbs. I swear if I see another website that gives squares only 8 degrees of an orb I am going to scream.

Why not 10 degrees? Even better 10 degrees for all major aspects, 6 degrees for sextiles and there you have it. Because I've seen influences of a grand trine with very weak orbs even with the ascendant involved. So why would squares be any different? It's a small thing but there are instances where I was able to feel squares at wider orb much stronger than squares at a tighter orb.
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Unread 10-08-2014, 05:14 AM
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Smile Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.
The square is driving in nature and it doesn't let up. However, I see nothing in the dynamic of the aspect's geometry that necessitates "Cross purposes ... can't see eye-to-eye, no matter what..."

If you choose to look at squares as "at cross purposes ... no matter what" then there is no resolution. That is contrary to purpose and free will within astrology.

Instead look for what positive result can be created. Interpret all aspects, including squares, by what the two planets have in common. This is fundamental aspect interpretation (my method).

Quote:
So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?
Well done. You've already gotten ahead of the curve in aspect interpretation.

Quote:
Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!
I think you are doing fine as evidenced by your above reasoning. Just keep learning. I think you've got a real head for astrology
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Unread 10-08-2014, 09:31 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post

I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!
'.....The tense aspects cause friction between the planets involved.
This friction brings difficulties and problems,
which may be psychological, environmental or a combination of the two.
In coping with these problems many people experience failure,
but some will be driven to overcome their difficulties
and in the process develop their astrological potential.....'


Square is strong,
but less powerful than opposition,
and creates friction between planets
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects2.html
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Unread 10-08-2014, 12:57 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Square (Quadrate) The square is the most dynamically active or energetic of the aspects and tends toward obstruction and disruption. It brings reaction, struggle, and when its challenges are well-met, success. It shows the effort or struggle needed for survival in the general scheme of living, with its risks. In the natal chart, squares show the manner in which the native builds up the peaks of his consciousness, from moments of ecstatic self-fulfillment to agonizing over the state of his being, or inner conflicts, as well as frustrations in the matter of the self’s skills, abilities and personal resources in the course of meeting the problems of life. While the opposition and trine aspects are basically indicators of a general equilibrium or dynamic stasis in living, the square shows the disruption of equilibriums as man acts in the context of the immediate demands of life. From the external perspective these acts are simultaneously seen as rebellion and accomplishment, and have an equal possibility of ending up as either frustration or fulfillment. The aspect indicates the mechanisms of tension and release that lead to self-realization or to the frustration of self-fulfillment. The native’s attempts at self-expression, at building the ego-constructs, at fulfilling desires is blocked and thwarted. The difference between what one wants and what one has, or between what one is and what surrounds him is felt acutely. The aspect reflects the practical considerations of everyday experience. It shows the psychological relationship between two energies that work at cross-purposes, seen in the Elements involved in the aspect. It operates independently, individualistically and self-assertively. Its mode of action is abrupt and creates discomfort, which spurs the native to action of the sort indicated by the Quality in which the square occurs. This aspect has the characteristics of a crossroad, where collisions often occur or progress is blocked by traffic, where a turning point is reached and a choice of direction must be made.
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  #10  
Unread 10-08-2014, 01:25 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Hello.
I have Moon in Taurus in the 10th house square Venus in Aquarius in the 6th. Venus also conjuncts my South node and opposes the North node.

I guess in my case all these aspects are lived through as a huge rivalry with women or other feminine figures who tend to be jealous about my beauty. I mean not just looks, but the ability to arrange things in a nice way. Nicely combined colors in clothes or nice selection of wall paper for the house, well arranged dinner or flowers planted by the house. Also people who are involved into art. Also contradiction art/family matters.

When I was a kid, me and my Mother didn't live together with my Dad. When I learnt writing I wrote a fairy tale and she sent it to him. And he made very sarcastic comments about it - saying it's too grammatically correct for a kid -- meaning my Mom wrote it for me to attract his attention. Which was 88% so. Noone cared about the tale itself, the pure expression... they were into their points and neglected my small peace of art.
When I was a teenager I painted a small water color miniature and used it as a bookmark. I took this book to a small journey with other kids. When they were running around they dropped my book, stepped on the painting with wet feet and it was completely ruined.
When I went to cinema institute someone threw out a box with my course movie made by hand out of pieces of used film. I don't know - was it done on purpose but looks like - people were just cleaning shelves in the room.
I hand painted the wall in my Mother in law's kitchen, but after sometime she removed it motivating she had a bad dream about it.
My husband is a 3d artist and he is jealous about my photos, drawings or any attempt to start a career in some artistic field.
My always makes derogatory comments about my looks especially when she drinks a glass of wine on gets in an other way relaxed. She does her best to undermine my self esteem in general. She doesn't only desencourages my artistic projects, but even when we talk about regular works - she does her best to pursuade me I am no good for the amount of salary I am offered.
My family basically sees me only as a modest housewife who should always be there for their needs.
But not only family. My profile on facebook contains millions of my artistic photos, sketches, my own nice pictures. I put it all there to get noticed by my friends many of whom work in fashion industry, magazines, are photographs. But noone notices. On the contrary I regulary -- really regularly receive requests --- would you promote my music\painting\photography? would you lend me some money
etcetcetc

I wouldn't say it was like that all the time. I got some esteem myself. I worked in a fashion magazine as an editor and retailing company as a fashion market analyst, travelled a lot, waled as a model for friend's fashion show, modelled for a fashion shooting. But it never started out into a carreer. Also things hugely changed when I gave birth to my second child. Everyone only sees my mother side or - the Moon, say people want me to be supportive of their (especially) beauty projects, but neglect my own talents, style and looks.

I guess the point is that i tried to make career (10 and 6 th houses) in the beauty field which brought too much rivalry into my life - both from men and women. But thinking back i guess there was not other choice, because the square ususally starts like trine - something pleasant and offering opportunities, but gives unexpected difficulty.

For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss. It gave the illusion that we can be supportive to each other in the work, make projects together. But whenever we start doing something together or even living closely - the different vision, different ideals, jealousy - becomes evident.

Sorry for such long reply. Just my sore spot.
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  #11  
Unread 10-08-2014, 03:40 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Hypotheticals don't really work in understanding astrology. Its too complicated.

To go further the OP is going to have to post his/her chart.
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Unread 10-08-2014, 03:45 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss.
This is a perfect reason why, without a look at both charts, without looking at a mini analysis of both charts and then a look at the synastry between houses and planet, & planets and planets, the simple example above doesn't describe the complexity of what humans are in the universe.

There are no silver bullets in astrology. Everything affects everything else on a completely non-linear way.
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Unread 10-08-2014, 05:29 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
IMO, you can work through a square by just trying harder. You see it coming, you know what youare up against.

With an opposition, you generally can't see it at all unless its part of a T-Square(or you either are an astrologer or you employ one). Most people don't solve their oppositions until mid life and often not at all. This is why they call it push-pull: the assumption is that you can't solve it, you just go back and forth.

And if they do work on it, and they do find exactly what it is, and where it is, they cannot simply work harder. IMO, oppositions require a change of consciousness, you have to change how you think about the circumstance of the opposition. The push-pull part comes from people trying to solve oppositions by pushing harder. That simply won't work; no matter how hard you push it, it pushes back with the same power you pushed into it.

Oppositions have no silver bullet solutions. They are always complicated solutions to complicated problems.

IMO, a less powerful-less high friction opposition trumps a square any day. I'd much rather have to deal with squares than oppositions.
this is true. Though I'd say still no "bad" aspect is doom and gloom.
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Unread 10-08-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

I have lots of squares in my natal chart, involving Sun, Moon, Mars and Saturn. If I were to boil down the feeling of the square to few words, I would say that it has a sense of ambush to it, matters that come up behind you and grab you by the neck before you can see them. Or like rounding a corner at the same time something is coming at you.

There is an abruptness to it.

But after a long life I can tell you that, at least for me, it never ever really felt like gloom and doom. Perhaps because of signs and house placements involved, along with other aspects to these planets?

It is helpful to remember that there is much in everyone's chart, along with their squares.
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Unread 10-12-2014, 06:38 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
The square is driving in nature and it doesn't let up. However, I see nothing in the dynamic of the aspect's geometry that necessitates "Cross purposes ... can't see eye-to-eye, no matter what..."

If you choose to look at squares as "at cross purposes ... no matter what" then there is no resolution. That is contrary to purpose and free will within astrology.
The book I got that from is from a free will astrology perspective. Maybe I didn't paraphrase that very well.

After going back and reading and thinking on it some more (and I read and thought over all these posts in the last couple days, though I didn't have a chance to respond til now) the word that stands out for me is friction. Squares create friction. In the physical world, what does friction create?

Sparks. Fire. Transformation. Wearing something down. Destroying something (in case of too much friction). Making something what it is.

Friction between a blade and a whetstone sharpens the blade and wears the stone smoother. It eats away particles from each and in doing so, makes each of those things more what it is. Sharper blade, smoother stone.

Is that what astrological squares do?

Forrest uses the analogy of predators and prey, which in nature, strengthen each other's species by weeding out the weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Instead look for what positive result can be created. Interpret all aspects, including squares, by what the two planets have in common. This is fundamental aspect interpretation (my method).
Of course positive results can be created, even from "negative" readings. So to use my Venus/Moon example, there's a friction between them, which makes each of them and its message and purpose more what it is?

I like what you say about starting with what the planets have in common. I just did that, and that's where I got confused.

So, to take things further and use some analogies from human relationships: in my chart, Venus and Mercury are a couple, Sun is their cordial roommate, and Moon is Sun's best friend--united in common endeavors--but doesn't get along so harmoniously with Sun's roommates. There's some friction between them, particularly between Moon and Venus, which keeps them on their toes whenever they're in contact with each other. (Which, of course, they always are, since these are symbols for parts of my own psyche).



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Well done. You've already gotten ahead of the curve in aspect interpretation.



I think you are doing fine as evidenced by your above reasoning. Just keep learning. I think you've got a real head for astrology
Thanks for the kind words!
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Unread 10-12-2014, 06:46 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
I have lots of squares in my natal chart, involving Sun, Moon, Mars and Saturn. If I were to boil down the feeling of the square to few words, I would say that it has a sense of ambush to it, matters that come up behind you and grab you by the neck before you can see them. Or like rounding a corner at the same time something is coming at you.

There is an abruptness to it.
Interesting. Are there any specific examples of this that you would like to share? Chances are I've had something like that happen myself. Besides the Venus/Moon square, I also have a T-square in which Saturn squares Uranus, which is conjunct the MC, and Jupiter, which is conjunct the IC, and a square between Mercury, which is conjunct Venus, and Neptune, which is conjunct the Moon and also squares Venus, so a decent amount of squares for me as well.

Would you say that this sense of ambush comes from external situations, or from your own psyche? Or is it both?

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But after a long life I can tell you that, at least for me, it never ever really felt like gloom and doom. Perhaps because of signs and house placements involved, along with other aspects to these planets?

It is helpful to remember that there is much in everyone's chart, along with their squares.
So these are issues that blindside you, but don't feel fated and don't make you feel helpless?
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Unread 10-12-2014, 06:57 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Square (Quadrate) The square is the most dynamically active or energetic of the aspects and tends toward obstruction and disruption. It brings reaction, struggle, and when its challenges are well-met, success. It shows the effort or struggle needed for survival in the general scheme of living, with its risks.

In the natal chart, squares show the manner in which the native builds up the peaks of his consciousness, from moments of ecstatic self-fulfillment to agonizing over the state of his being, or inner conflicts, as well as frustrations in the matter of the self’s skills, abilities and personal resources in the course of meeting the problems of life.

While the opposition and trine aspects are basically indicators of a general equilibrium or dynamic stasis in living, the square shows the disruption of equilibriums as man acts in the context of the immediate demands of life.

From the external perspective these acts are simultaneously seen as rebellion and accomplishment, and have an equal possibility of ending up as either frustration or fulfillment. The aspect indicates the mechanisms of tension and release that lead to self-realization or to the frustration of self-fulfillment. The native’s attempts at self-expression, at building the ego-constructs, at fulfilling desires is blocked and thwarted.

The difference between what one wants and what one has, or between what one is and what surrounds him is felt acutely. The aspect reflects the practical considerations of everyday experience. It shows the psychological relationship between two energies that work at cross-purposes, seen in the Elements involved in the aspect. It operates independently, individualistically and self-assertively.

Its mode of action is abrupt and creates discomfort, which spurs the native to action of the sort indicated by the Quality in which the square occurs. This aspect has the characteristics of a crossroad, where collisions often occur or progress is blocked by traffic, where a turning point is reached and a choice of direction must be made.
Greybeard (and everyone), I had to copy this post and break it up to be able to get any clue what it said. I am completely and totally unable to read electronic text if it's in a block any longer than seven or eight lines. You posted this in a much longer block, without creating any spaces in it, and that made me unable to read any of it.

I was willing to do it this one time because I wanted to know what you had to say. But I need everyone to be considerate of the fact that not everyone can read without ample spaces between lines. It's much easier to make paragraph breaks every four or five sentences while writing a post than to have to try to fix it later. Usually, when I see something like that online, I don't even try to read it because it's so much trouble. So if you want any responses from me on these boards, please make posts I can read!

What I get from reading this post is that squares are disruptive, while trines and oppositions just feel like business as usual. Is that correct? But I thought an opposition was considered an unharmonious aspect. If it doesn't disrupt anything, how is it unharmonious?

That maybe a bit off the subject of squares, but since T-squares have been touched on by more than one of us, maybe oppositions are relevant here, too.
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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Hello.
I have Moon in Taurus in the 10th house square Venus in Aquarius in the 6th. Venus also conjuncts my South node and opposes the North node.

I guess in my case all these aspects are lived through as a huge rivalry with women or other feminine figures who tend to be jealous about my beauty. I mean not just looks, but the ability to arrange things in a nice way. Nicely combined colors in clothes or nice selection of wall paper for the house, well arranged dinner or flowers planted by the house. Also people who are involved into art. Also contradiction art/family matters.

When I was a kid, me and my Mother didn't live together with my Dad. When I learnt writing I wrote a fairy tale and she sent it to him. And he made very sarcastic comments about it - saying it's too grammatically correct for a kid -- meaning my Mom wrote it for me to attract his attention. Which was 88% so. Noone cared about the tale itself, the pure expression... they were into their points and neglected my small peace of art.


When I was a teenager I painted a small water color miniature and used it as a bookmark. I took this book to a small journey with other kids. When they were running around they dropped my book, stepped on the painting with wet feet and it was completely ruined.

When I went to cinema institute someone threw out a box with my course movie made by hand out of pieces of used film. I don't know - was it done on purpose but looks like - people were just cleaning shelves in the room.

I hand painted the wall in my Mother in law's kitchen, but after sometime she removed it motivating she had a bad dream about it.

My husband is a 3d artist and he is jealous about my photos, drawings or any attempt to start a career in some artistic field.

My always makes derogatory comments about my looks especially when she drinks a glass of wine on gets in an other way relaxed. She does her best to undermine my self esteem in general. She doesn't only desencourages my artistic projects, but even when we talk about regular works - she does her best to pursuade me I am no good for the amount of salary I am offered.

My family basically sees me only as a modest housewife who should always be there for their needs.

But not only family. My profile on facebook contains millions of my artistic photos, sketches, my own nice pictures. I put it all there to get noticed by my friends many of whom work in fashion industry, magazines, are photographs. But noone notices. On the contrary I regulary -- really regularly receive requests --- would you promote my music\painting\photography? would you lend me some money
etcetcetc

I wouldn't say it was like that all the time. I got some esteem myself. I worked in a fashion magazine as an editor and retailing company as a fashion market analyst, travelled a lot, waled as a model for friend's fashion show, modelled for a fashion shooting. But it never started out into a carreer. Also things hugely changed when I gave birth to my second child. Everyone only sees my mother side or - the Moon, say people want me to be supportive of their (especially) beauty projects, but neglect my own talents, style and looks.

I guess the point is that i tried to make career (10 and 6 th houses) in the beauty field which brought too much rivalry into my life - both from men and women. But thinking back i guess there was not other choice, because the square ususally starts like trine - something pleasant and offering opportunities, but gives unexpected difficulty.

For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss. It gave the illusion that we can be supportive to each other in the work, make projects together. But whenever we start doing something together or even living closely - the different vision, different ideals, jealousy - becomes evident.

Sorry for such long reply. Just my sore spot.
Long replies are fine. Just please break up the paragraphs if you're writing long ones!

Venus conjunct the south nodes sounds like you're working out past life--or ancestral past--issues surrounding Venusian sorts of things, like art and beauty and femininity. North nodes represent the place to work toward, growing away from those south node patterns. Yours would be in Leo, so it sounds like it's a Leo sort of direction you need to go in.

Maybe the squares are the challenges that get thrown at you to, hopefully, push you in that direction? But it sounds like you're still falling back on south node patterns. Without knowing more about what's going on for you, it's hard to say what would help you grow toward those north nodes.

Thanks for helping me try to understand squares!
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

I suspect the Moon - empathy principle just got too much activated specialy when my second child came so that i became too emotional and easy to take offence, etc.

I studied popular science film making at cinema school, so I guess this was exactly my nodal direction - from Aquarius to Leo - make progressive ideas look good on screen, attract attention. But my Moon (kids, family matters, emotions) knocked me off this way.

Intrestingly now that Jupiter in Leo transited my North node and ascendant i got several job invites from my hometown. One of them is to work in a ski resort which is shaped like space station or alien ship in the mountains and has 3D simulations of planets inside, museum of science and so on. The salary is OK to take care of all my family. But it's 2000 kms away from my husband's hometown where we live now.

So my Mother in law (Taurus Sun nearly exactly on my Moon\her own Moon in Cancer) is extremely against, because she has established business here where we live now and doesn't want to let anyone go away from her control, or say "intensive care" ))

But I would say i got through this situation using my Aquarian Venusian energies. Studying astrology, being able to emotionally withdraw from extremes, abstract and even laugh after all at how all really works.

The conclusions i made would probably be
1) Moon got really activated after i gave birth to second child (she has ascendant in Taurus - so too much Tauri around got it out of me after all)
2) I disliked this experience and it was difficult to master this side of myself because i guess Taurus Moon is exalted so if it's also damaged sharp angles get exggerated.
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Unread 10-12-2014, 06:05 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

The moon & Venus, as you say, are both about emotions & connections. But the moon is much more instinctive. Lunar patterns are established very early in life, and have to do with survival on the most basic level. Venus patterns show up a little later, when you've clearly distinguished between yourself and others. Basically, the moon is about what you need, and Venus about what you want.

So it's easy to see how things can be at odds. You need healthy food to survive, but you want Cheetos. You need a mutually supportive relationship, but you want that super-attractive person who just walked by. You need security, but you want to max out your credit card on something extravagant.

So generally the moon is much more security-conscious, while Venus is more pleasure-oriented. But you refine their differences further by looking at their signs. What does the moon need? What does Venus want?

Sometimes our instinctive needs don't seem all that healthy for us, but there they are. For example, someone with a lot of nervous energy may need to run around a lot, even while they want a life that's balanced and calm. So it's not always that the moon represents what's considered traditionally healthy. It's more that it stems from early instincts that can't be denied (without making you depressed or ill) but that have to be expressed somehow. Usually there are both healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our moons.

Your moon in Sagittarius doesn't seem all that security-conscious, but it shows an early pattern that connects security with the need for excitement, passion and adventure. It can indicate a feeling that, in order to maintain security, you have to run away from things on a regular basis. Or that you need to make passionate, sweeping commitments to things. Or sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Venus, by its nature, is more of a creature of choice. So while your moon is doing passionate things by instinct, your Venus in Virgo is making clear, dispassionate choices about what is well-designed, fitting, symmetrical, and practical. This is what she wants.

You can also see a square as a judgment from one side of your psyche to another. For example, from the standpoint of your Venus, your moon in Sagittarius is dangerously impulsive, messy, tending to a lot of loose ends. From the standpoint of your moon, your Venus in Virgo may be repressed, overly concerned with control. So they have to find a way to combine these two different approaches to relationships and to emotional well-being.

Hope this perspective helps...

Jenny
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

This thread has been very enjoyable and informative to read. Thank you everyone for contributing. I love Osamenor's questions.

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post

But the questions I posted here to ask are about squares. Maybe it would be simpler to break it down this way:

1. How can planets be at cross purposes if their whats are quite compatible? How would a square between them make their whats incompatible?

and

2. If there's a square between a sign and its native house, how does that put them at cross purposes? Maybe my sun/north nodes square isn't a such a good example, so for simplicity's sake, I'll make it a theoretical question: if there's a square between a planet in Scorpio and a planet in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, what does that really do? Eighth house and Scorpio should have a compatible message, shouldn't they? But if they're squared, what does that do? Does it make the parts of the psyche that they rule in conflict in some way?
No sign and house are the same. Even if 8th house has loosely been associated with Scorpio, it's not "the house of Scorpio", so there isn't quite the compatibility angle there, in my opinion. Greybeard said it best to take each planet individually and look at its condition, then you can evaluate the relationship to one another easier.

This also highlights the differences between Moon and Venus, which I think Jenny very eloquently described. I've noticed it's very easy for people to get confused between the functions of Moon and Venus. The inherent compatibility between the "whats" that you supposed is not there, either.

12th house and 8th house square is interesting. Those two planets are governing additionally confused domains. I still have trouble separating them.

12th house is isolation, oblivion, prison, release, metaphysical, the subconscious. 8th is secrets, resources of others, death and rebirth, sex, taxes. Both are heavy houses. The differences can also be seen as 8th is succedent (analogous to fixed) and 12th is cadent (analogous to mutable).

I'm going to add in addition to every else's comments about this square, which of course may be modified by other parts of the chart which we haven't been privy to.

Moon is in the 12th, in a mutable sign of Sagittarius. Moon requires freedom of anonymity. Moon needs room to breathe, and it needs to be able to contemplate the meaning of life without the influences and trappings of material existence. Moon would rather disregard the physical on all levels and flow freely in and out of existence, and Moon is highly principled, but this isn't always obvious because of the carefree attitude.

This is extremely different from Virgo (mutable) Venus in the 8th, in Fall. Venus wants something concrete to latch onto. Venus wants to have physical resources. Venus wants every detail controlled and under a microscope. Venus wants to have a lot of sex. Venus likes predictability. Venus is concerned about money.

I really like your friction analogy. How it can start fires, slow movement, be abrasive. Can you see how these two planets conditions might do these things?

I could see this square playing out as a need to learn to moderate resources. Either having too much or too little. Perhaps you feel the urge to get rid of everything, all you have, and go traveling, only to become uneasy with your condition, or your ability to take care of others and yourself in a physical way. Of feeling free and wanting control over your comfort and well-being or the comfort and well being of women in your life especially, and that started from early childhood.
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Unread 10-14-2014, 03:55 AM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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I studied popular science film making at cinema school, so I guess this was exactly my nodal direction - from Aquarius to Leo - make progressive ideas look good on screen, attract attention.
To me, that sounds like a south node pattern still. You have your south nodes in the sixth house--house of service. That suggests that your deepest unconscious expectations--and south nodes create very deeply unconscious expectations--include the assumption that whatever you do must be in service to others. And they're conjunct the seventh house cusp, which shades that in service to others expectation with an expectation of partnership, of marriage. Furthermore, Aquarius isn't just about progressive ideas, it's also about transcending personality. Mix an expectation that you must constantly be in service to others with an expectation that you must transcend your personality, and you've got an expectation to always put others first and never develop yourself outside of that.

Put that together, and it sounds exactly like traditional expectations of women. A woman is always supposed to be in service to her family. A woman should never do anything she enjoys unless she can create something useful or helpful to others out of it. The modern world adds career expectations to that mix, but doesn't take away any of the expectation that you have to be constantly serving others. Nor does it take away the expectation that you're supposed to put others' needs first and your own needs last, if you even attend to your own needs at all.

The rest of your posts also indicate that kind of expectation. You've said a lot about yourself in relation to your work and your family, but very little about yourself in relation to you. You seem to believe, very deeply, that the only way you can grow in a north node direction is through your work.

But I don't think that's what your north nodes are saying. Feel free to take it or leave it, but this is what I see:

Your north nodes are in Leo, which is the sign of personality development to the fullest. And they're in the twelfth house, which is an inwardly directed house. Planets in that house very strongly influence your inner life, but not necessarily your outer life, at least not to the point that others will readily see their influence. And your north nodes conjunct your ascendent, so they also have a message about your sense of self.

Leo is the most obviously selfish of the twelve signs. It insists on developing its personality for itself and only itself. Doesn't matter if Leo is useful to others or not--what Leo does is enjoy life, on Leo's own terms. But that doesn't mean nobody likes Leo, or that Leo is mean and unkind. Far from it. Leo is like a cat that demands to be stroked and then purrs from bliss, rubbing its face against its owner, making the owner very happy, too. Leo is like a small child that's such a joy to be around because she lights up the room just by being herself. Leo is like a comedian making everyone laugh because he just loves telling jokes.

But the cat doesn't purr just to make its owner happy, it purrs because it's happy. The comedian doesn't worry about how useful he's being to the world when he's telling those jokes. The child isn't looking around for how she can be of help. They're all just being themselves, doing what makes them happy.

North nodes indicate what your soul has not yet learned how to do. It sounds like you haven't learned how to develop your own self without a sense that the validity of your existence depends on being useful to others. The nodes' placement near your ascendant reinforces that this is about developing your own self, and their placement in the twelfth house suggests that your own self needs to develop in a hidden, private way--at the very least, away from the expectations of others.

Digression from the theme of squares. I just had to get that out there. I'll look more later at what you actually said about squares!
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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The moon & Venus, as you say, are both about emotions & connections. But the moon is much more instinctive. Lunar patterns are established very early in life, and have to do with survival on the most basic level. Venus patterns show up a little later, when you've clearly distinguished between yourself and others. Basically, the moon is about what you need, and Venus about what you want.

So it's easy to see how things can be at odds. You need healthy food to survive, but you want Cheetos. You need a mutually supportive relationship, but you want that super-attractive person who just walked by. You need security, but you want to max out your credit card on something extravagant.

So generally the moon is much more security-conscious, while Venus is more pleasure-oriented. But you refine their differences further by looking at their signs. What does the moon need? What does Venus want?
Great explanation!

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Your moon in Sagittarius doesn't seem all that security-conscious, but it shows an early pattern that connects security with the need for excitement, passion and adventure. It can indicate a feeling that, in order to maintain security, you have to run away from things on a regular basis. Or that you need to make passionate, sweeping commitments to things. Or sometimes one, sometimes the other.
Very true. I see both kinds of patterns in my life, for sure. I wouldn't have thought that the need for freedom was about security, though. I've been seeing it as just what I thrive on. Is that perhaps security, in its own way?

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Venus, by its nature, is more of a creature of choice. So while your moon is doing passionate things by instinct, your Venus in Virgo is making clear, dispassionate choices about what is well-designed, fitting, symmetrical, and practical. This is what she wants.
Interesting. I have a bit more trouble seeing how this plays out in my life, but maybe this is a good example:

I don't do physical intimacy (and I mean that in both the euphemistic and the non-euphemistic senses of the term!) unless it's with someone I know quite well and have a fairly deep emotional and mental connection with. (Did I mention that my eighth house Virgo Venus is retrograde, and it's conjunct Mercury?) A reasonably committed relationship is typically required for me to be comfortable going beyond a kiss (that doesn't mean we have to be engaged or even longterm committed, but it does mean that it doesn't work for me if it's only expected to be a short term thing). And I only date people who are my age peers. No significant age differences for me. No one night stands or short term flings, either.

Except that I once did have a short term fling, and it was with someone 14 years older than me. He was 39, to my 25 at the time. I knew him somewhat, but not terribly, terribly well. And I felt no qualms at all about it. Not at the time, and not at anytime since.

But that's still not my pattern. I still have the same basic rules regarding relationships, I just accept that there might be an occasional exception to those rules, and that's okay, too. (And now that I'm 39 myself, 14 years older might be more like peer age, so the acceptable age difference is widening.)

Seems like that might have been a case of that square's friction. Most of the time, Venus's practicality wins out in my relationship choices, but that time, Moon won, and they reached a different agreement.

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No sign and house are the same. Even if 8th house has loosely been associated with Scorpio, it's not "the house of Scorpio", so there isn't quite the compatibility angle there, in my opinion. Greybeard said it best to take each planet individually and look at its condition, then you can evaluate the relationship to one another easier.
Good point. The only square I have with those particular placements is my sun/north nodes, and I may go start another thread about that. After interpreting a couple of other people's north node questions (one in another thread, too), I'm wondering more and more about mine, since it seems like house placement is so key to that.

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12th house and 8th house square is interesting. Those two planets are governing additionally confused domains. I still have trouble separating them.
For that reason, maybe it would be better to use some other examples. I have a cardinal sign ascendant (Capricorn), so I also have other squares between signs and their native houses. I have a square between a planet in Libra and one in the seventh house, and between that seventh house Cancer planet and one in Aries in the fourth (or rather, on the fourth house cusp, technically in the third)--so it's a T-square.

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
I could see this square playing out as a need to learn to moderate resources. Either having too much or too little. Perhaps you feel the urge to get rid of everything, all you have, and go traveling, only to become uneasy with your condition, or your ability to take care of others and yourself in a physical way. Of feeling free and wanting control over your comfort and well-being or the comfort and well being of women in your life especially, and that started from early childhood.
Except for the comfort and wellbeing of women in my life part, I would say that's true. And, interestingly (relationship theme again), I had a ten year committed relationship with someone who showed those same kinds of patterns. We did lots of traveling and living out of cars, campers, tents, etc. I've seen his birthchart once and don't remember it exactly, but I do remember that he had Venus in Virgo, too, and very possibly a Venus/Moon square as well. His moon's in Taurus, which could put it within the orb of a square with Venus if it's in late Taurus and Venus is in early Virgo.
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

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12th house and 8th house square is interesting. Those two planets are governing additionally confused domains. I still have trouble separating them.

12th house is isolation, oblivion, prison, release, metaphysical, the subconscious. 8th is secrets, resources of others, death and rebirth, sex, taxes. Both are heavy houses. The differences can also be seen as 8th is succedent (analogous to fixed) and 12th is cadent (analogous to mutable).
Poor, misunderstood 8th and 12th houses! As a native of both, here's how I see them working in my life:

The eighth house is about transpersonal development. That's what everything on its list has in common. Death. Shared resources. Secrets. The occult (that word literally means "hidden," so fits perfectly with that theme). Sex.

My sun is in Leo, whose purpose is to develop personality to the fullest. But its house placement gives it a paradox. I have to develop my personality by transpersonal means. I have to transcend personality in order to develop it.

My moon, meanwhile, is in the sign of the lifelong learner in the mystical house of transcendence--again, what all those twelfth house things have in common. Soul, moon, needs those things.

I am constantly seeking out profound transformational experiences. I'm always being changed by them. And with that deep Sagittarian desire for learning and change, with placement in the mystical and fluid realm, Moon needs exactly what Sun--personality--needs in order for it to develop.

And they're trine. No surprise.

I do wonder about that sun/north node square, though, because it seems like what I'm heading toward, in Scorpio, is exactly the way Sun wants to develop. Maybe it's the house placement that adds the friction.

I would like to post my chart, but I can't figure out how to do it. When I open the Attachments window, it shows a little red block for the chart I've uploaded, but it doesn't show me any list, so there's nothing to select. How am I supposed to attach it?
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Unread 10-14-2014, 11:16 PM
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Re: Trying to Understand Squares

Click the manage attachments under 'additional options' when replying to a thread, and then click the button that says 'choose file' in the popup window (it's in a box above the list that has that header "Upload File From Your Computer").

Alternatively you can enter a URL in the box below that if you have the file hosted somewhere.

Click 'Upload' button and it should upload. When you close the popup menu you should see the filename listed under attachments.

Hope that made sense. It would really help to see your chart!
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