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  #1  
Unread 09-22-2014, 07:15 AM
Markz0ne24 Markz0ne24 is offline
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Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

I was going to originally ask about what astrology is better. The western tropical or the vedic. But I will read other topics on that. I wanted to logically conclude astrology is so accurate it's insane that obviously there can't be free will. Now I don't know how this ties in to reincarnation.. But all I know it astrology works and I am wise to know that just because I can't explain how it works, doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

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  #2  
Unread 09-22-2014, 11:55 AM
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Hi Mark, I am one Astrologer who does not believe that the commonly understood notion of 'free will' exists. I am aware im in the minority when it comes to taking this view but after the countless number of readings ive done for people, fate lines and destiny is all i see. There is the energy of 'will' but it's certainly not 'free'. All the best with your journeying here on planet Earth. Elra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markz0ne24 View Post
I was going to originally ask about what astrology is better. The western tropical or the vedic. But I will read other topics on that. I wanted to logically conclude astrology is so accurate it's insane that obviously there can't be free will. Now I don't know how this ties in to reincarnation.. But all I know it astrology works and I am wise to know that just because I can't explain how it works, doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
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  #3  
Unread 09-22-2014, 01:33 PM
Markz0ne24 Markz0ne24 is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by Elra View Post
Hi Mark, I am one Astrologer who does not believe that the commonly understood notion of 'free will' exists. I am aware im in the minority when it comes to taking this view but after the countless number of readings ive done for people, fate lines and destiny is all i see. There is the energy of 'will' but it's certainly not 'free'. All the best with your journeying here on planet Earth. Elra.
I am trying to find the proper astrology to use. I know from my readings that the vedic astrology is superior to the tropical western zodiac. However I was born on 3/21/1993 and in the vedic I'm a pisces while in the tropical I'm an aries. I know I'm a pisces, but it seems there's some aries residue in my life.
I am trying to contact the vital records to get my actual time of birth and so far it's a pain.

I know astrology works and there are many complexities many are ignorant to. But my nearly 22 years of living has not been good.
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Unread 09-22-2014, 02:39 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Define free will? Will is never total.

Free will is always bounded, so choice exists.
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  #5  
Unread 09-22-2014, 03:14 PM
Markz0ne24 Markz0ne24 is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by ukdesifem View Post
Define free will? Will is never total.

Free will is always bounded, so choice exists.
Meaning everything we do. I know astrology defines our personality in lock set. But when it comes to events and places and everything being tailored for us from the very moment of birth.
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  #6  
Unread 09-22-2014, 05:24 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Events, situations, places and even people who come into our lives may be predestined, but we still have a choice as to how we react to these and how we deal with the challenges which are presented to us during the course of a lifetime - in my opinion this is where free will comes into the picture.

Last edited by Bina; 09-22-2014 at 05:28 PM.
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Unread 09-22-2014, 05:37 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Reincarnation exists mostly as a genetic thing One could say parents are gradually reincarnating into their kids. There is no other reincarnation apart maybe from the group/tribe/society passing on traits to the younger generation. But I agree, once the dice are rolled, maybe since the beginning of time, human life unfolds like dominoes, ours chart are set from birth and future childrens' chart too....
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  #8  
Unread 09-22-2014, 06:32 PM
Markz0ne24 Markz0ne24 is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Reincarnation exists mostly as a genetic thing One could say parents are gradually reincarnating into their kids. There is no other reincarnation apart maybe from the group/tribe/society passing on traits to the younger generation. But I agree, once the dice are rolled, maybe since the beginning of time, human life unfolds like dominoes, ours chart are set from birth and future childrens' chart too....
Really? Because the studies show that reincarnations never had a direct genetic cause. They never even demonstrated that genes store memory like a computer, since humans aren't computers. PCs are binary and genes are basically sugar and protein with a 4 base sequence. You just literally voided astrology as a spiritual reality. Because my past life memories are legit and I have no family recollection or documentation of that incarnation, so explain that situation? Ian Stevenson's work ruled out genetic play, because the people who reincarnate are always doing it in a recent time miles and miles away. Unless genes are wifi, then you can't say that.
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Unread 09-22-2014, 07:11 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by Markz0ne24 View Post
Meaning everything we do. I know astrology defines our personality in lock set. But when it comes to events and places and everything being tailored for us from the very moment of birth.
Not necessarily. How we use the information on our chart is up to us. Choice exists, it's just it's very limited.

Besides, even if the planets didn't control us, we still have limitations. Nothing is absolutely free in life.
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Unread 09-22-2014, 08:03 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by Markz0ne24 View Post
Really? Because the studies show that reincarnations never had a direct genetic cause. They never even demonstrated that genes store memory like a computer, since humans aren't computers. PCs are binary and genes are basically sugar and protein with a 4 base sequence. You just literally voided astrology as a spiritual reality. Because my past life memories are legit and I have no family recollection or documentation of that incarnation, so explain that situation? Ian Stevenson's work ruled out genetic play, because the people who reincarnate are always doing it in a recent time miles and miles away. Unless genes are wifi, then you can't say that.
I did not "void astrology as a spiritual reality"...it's all spiritual...just because it's genes doesn't mean it's materialistic. But it's like you're denying that members of a same family look and think alike...
And I said society reincarnates but I guess there can be direct channels of consciousness that pass on to someone else. Like you were the same person. I saw a docu on that, a young boy who described a Scottish town he'd never been to nor heard of..
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-b...-lived-before/
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  #11  
Unread 09-22-2014, 08:08 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

I don't know that free will exists. I don't think astrology is to blame for this. It's just the nature of reality, and of things that are here in this universe. Everything is a series of causes and effects, traced back to the very first cause...whatever you believe that to be. Everything that has happened since then can only happen because of the things that came before it...and could have happened only the way that it did.
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  #12  
Unread 09-22-2014, 08:24 PM
Markz0ne24 Markz0ne24 is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I did not "void astrology as a spiritual reality"...it's all spiritual...just because it's genes doesn't mean it's materialistic. But it's like you're denying that members of a same family look and think alike...
And I said society reincarnates but I guess there can be direct channels of consciousness that pass on to someone else. Like you were the same person. I saw a docu on that, a young boy who described a Scottish town he'd never been to nor heard of..
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-b...-lived-before/
I'm sorry for the harsh sentencing. I just misunderstood what you meant. I myself have nothing in common with my parents or family for that matter. So genes clearly are not the way Darwin laid them down. I recommend you watch the work of Bruce Lipton and epigenetics from the 50s. Basically genes are receptors to external stimuli, they aren't these agents that have some programmed direction. The genes only make up a physical body from the mix of my biological parents.
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Unread 09-22-2014, 08:26 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Planets give out (or are linked to?) certain energies that rule certain chakras, and in turn, rules certain parts of the body and soul. The chart is a reflection of that. You certainly have free will, but only if you can escape the influence of the planets. One way is through sublimating any powerful energies that the planets will put out at a given time. Some energy work is required to do these though...
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  #14  
Unread 09-23-2014, 06:18 AM
astretina astretina is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

programmed to an extent, no one asked me if i wanted to be born and sure as hell no one asked me what kind of soul-mind-body nature i wished to have

fundamentally programmed because man's life is destined, no such thing as free will, but that doesnt mean i cant choose which canned fish to buy at the supermarket

thats my life view - basically fatalism, my personal opinion

Last edited by astretina; 09-23-2014 at 06:21 AM.
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Unread 09-24-2014, 12:13 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Vedic astrology is "better than" western?

Oh. That's nice.

Who told you so?

*************

Fate vs "Free Will".....

Watch horoscopes as they become manifest through a life.
And what you see is a person living out a script.
Gaze beyond Earth to the Cosmos and what you see is that things are born, live, grow, evolve, die..... and seem to have nothing to say about it. (stars for example, or mountains or fruit flies.)

Human beings evolved from, and in fact are still composed of one-celled organisms. We are nothing more than colonies of one-celled organisms. Humanity is nothing more than a continuation of what came before and we are the seed of what will be (in our particular line). We did not will ourselves into being -- the Cosmos did. We live between the two unseens of pre-birth and post-birth and have no say in either. Why, in the vast expanse of the eons should we, alone among all the creatures of Creation, suddenly and uniquely have "free will"?

A long time ago I was walking in the woods, thinking about astrology. And suddenly I realized that I am a puppet on cosmic strings...a slave if you will, with no control over my destiny. And in that moment I became Free.

I have no control over the stock market, the weather, the fact that I live on Earth, that I am male, American, a lousy singer..... All these things have a powerful, dominant influence on my life, how I live it, the choices I make.
I am often driven by emotions, passions...not under my control.
Most of what I do in life is driven by unconscious forces (I was raised to believe certain things -- many of them not true -- ) and these beliefs control me and my life.

My bet: The list of things over which you have control or power -- over which your Free Will reigns supreme -- will be far shorter than my list of things beyond my control.

This does not negate the fact that we constantly make choices, important choices. We can't do otherwise. But if we look deeply within, we might find that those choices in themselves are predetermined by our very nature.

Jesus (and others) said..."Not my will but thine be done". And then he walked down the hill, willingly, to meet his fate. If we look at this not as history but as symbol and guide for living wisely.... (P.S. I'm not a Christian. But I look for and accept wisdom wherever I can find it.)

Last edited by greybeard; 09-24-2014 at 01:17 AM.
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Unread 09-24-2014, 01:15 AM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markz0ne24 View Post
I was going to originally ask about what astrology is better. The western tropical or the vedic.
To some extent, it is based on society. For example Vedic Astrologers give name to baby based on Astrim. That sound vibrates life time in the name of child and makes influence of Moon dominant. There are several rituals and practices are based on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markz0ne24 View Post
I wanted to logically conclude astrology is so accurate it's insane that obviously there can't be free will.
Those, who have more planets in angles (angular houses) have more free will. Meet people with 7-8 planets in angular houses - they are likely to be out of astrological boundaries.
[/QUOTE]

Last edited by dhundhun; 09-24-2014 at 01:24 AM.
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  #17  
Unread 09-24-2014, 02:34 AM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Astrology REFLECTS the psyche. It doesn't "cause" anything. The planets actions stamp us with potentials at birth. the birth map is the metaphorical picture of that psyche.

FreeWill, like all other potentials vary from person to person (chart to chart.)

Some people have more freedom within their lives, or at different times in their lives than other people or other times of their life.

All oppositions (all planets including the Sun and Moon) allow us to make decisions. During any week we make hundreds of decisions. These may be studied, or planned or foreseen or impetuous, or impulsive. Some of these will depend upon all or many of the previous choices (decisions). To think that every one of our choices is pre-destined is nuttier than thinking that our whole life is lived with total free will.

One big hint is HOW programmed you are in your childhood. The more programmed you are, the less free and authentic you will be in the rest of your life.

Having said ALL that: we all live with "the perameters" of our chart. We cannot go outside the boundries of our potentials.
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  #18  
Unread 09-24-2014, 03:49 AM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Greybeard... "A long time ago I was walking in the woods"... curious to know what transits/progressions were happening in your Chart/s during this walk? For me the revelation that 'free will' is an illusion came in bulk during my Saturn Return. There were snippets of insights with earlier transits, but I feel that the Saturn 'structure' allowed for the ripple of awakening to arrive and plant itself more steadily Elra

Last edited by Elra; 09-24-2014 at 04:00 AM.
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Unread 09-24-2014, 06:48 AM
astretina astretina is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Watch horoscopes as they become manifest through a life.
And what you see is a person living out a script.

And suddenly I realized that I am a puppet on cosmic strings...a slave if you will, with no control over my destiny.

This does not negate the fact that we constantly make choices, important choices. We can't do otherwise. But if we look deeply within, we might find that those choices in themselves are predetermined by our very nature.

Jesus (and others) said..."Not my will but thine be done". And then he walked down the hill, willingly, to meet his fate. (P.S. I'm not a Christian. But I look for and accept wisdom wherever I can find it.)
these are the parts that i like and agree with greybeard, nicely put
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Unread 09-24-2014, 03:34 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Elra...

Transits in effect (I really can't pin the date down...) were
Pluto square Sun (8th)
Neptune at the Dsc
Saturn Rx trine himself (waning trine from his own house)
Jupiter crossing the Asc (and opp t.Neptune)

Sec. Pr. Moon was crossing Asc, which she rules (conj. t.Jupiter & opp. t.Neptune)
Neptune is powerful in the radix.

Last edited by greybeard; 09-24-2014 at 03:40 PM.
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  #21  
Unread 09-24-2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

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Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post

To some extent, it is based on society. For example Vedic Astrologers give name to baby based on Astrim. That sound vibrates life time in the name of child and makes influence of Moon dominant. There are several rituals and practices are based on that.


Those, who have more planets in angles (angular houses) have more free will.
Meet people with 7-8 planets in angular houses - they are likely to be out of astrological boundaries.
Sam Harris on "Free Will" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 09-24-2014, 05:11 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Lin's post prompts me to comment.

1. We are born with a certain chart that prescribes our potentials.
2. We spend our childhood immersed in the culture of birth, and immediately influenced by parents.

At puberty our mind crystallizes and becomes different in quality from that of the child. The sponge-like absorptive character of the mind in childhood rapidly acquires structure, hardens. Our individuality is now set firmly and will not change.

All of our childhood experience, good or bad, is deeply ingrained in our psyche, and this creates our "innate" character. Our path has been marked -- we set off in a certain direction. That direction will lead us into new experience (which is set out along the path waiting for our arrival) which in turn forms our character even further.

So now we are pulling a cart full of pre-conditioning along with us. Unless we can empty and finally discard that cart, we are controlled by it. We have been convinced (unconsciously, by childhood experience), that we must stay in the traces pulling that cart until the day of doom. Very few people ever fully rid themselves of the cart and its baggage.

Suppose my father was a cruel and brutal man, and I bear the scars to prove it. Now I become a father. As a parent one of two courses is probable regarding how I deal with my own children -- I will either be a cruel and brutal father like my own dad, or I will react to that childhood cruelty by being very soft, permissive etc with my own kids, having taken a sacred vow to never treat my children as I had been treated. Either way, my actions as a parent are pre-determined by my own childhood experience.

We need to be aware that the horsocope shows not only our deep and immutable natural inclinations but also the nature of those early experiences. [Think on the essential and the accidental dignities]. Both our inherent nature and the nature of our formative experiences is shown in the horoscope. If this is so then there really isn't much room for a sovereign free will.

Liken your life to a ship, departing San Francisco and bound for Yokohama. Once at sea, the command of the ship, its course, is in the hands of the master. If he runs into a storm, or pirates, or sirens beckoning from the rocks of Scylla, he can change course, speed up, slow down...but he must arrive at Yokohama. Depending on the time of departure from San Francisco, those storms and pirates and sirens are already in his future path, waiting. The changes of course the ship makes (decisions, choices, free will) are already determined because the events to be met are there waiting. The ship must respond to them, and the captain's choices are determined by his character.

President Lincoln had a devil of a time finding a general who would fight the war and win. Then he found Grant. Here was courage, aggression, determination, tenacity in one package. Grant's character determined his choices in battle and won the war. That innate character met each passing circumstance -- made choices, exercised free will -- in accord with the general's inherent and acquired traits. In other words, his choices were pre-determined. McClellan would not have made the same choices.

A good book that has to do with this theme: Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl.

Oh. I don't think the word "programmed" is appropriate here. We are not computers or robots. We are living creatures (I think they call it sentient). We have emotions, desires (our bane) and so on. We do have the power of choice (free will) although it is far more limited than most of us would like to believe.

Last edited by greybeard; 09-24-2014 at 05:31 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 09-24-2014, 05:36 PM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Lin's post prompts me to comment.

1. We are born with a certain chart that prescribes our potentials.
2. We spend our childhood immersed in the culture of birth, and immediately influenced by parents.

At puberty our mind crystallizes and becomes different in quality from that of the child. The sponge-like absorptive character of the mind in childhood rapidly acquires structure, hardens. Our individuality is now set firmly and will not change.

All of our childhood experience, good or bad, is deeply ingrained in our psyche, and this creates our "innate" character. Our path has been marked -- we set off in a certain direction. That direction will lead us into new experience (which is set out along the path waiting for our arrival) which in turn forms our character even further.

So now we are pulling a cart full of pre-conditioning along with us. Unless we can empty and finally discard that cart, we are controlled by it. We have been convinced (unconsciously, by childhood experience), that we must stay in the traces pulling that cart until the day of doom. Very few people ever fully rid themselves of the cart and its baggage.

Suppose my father was a cruel and brutal man, and I bear the scars to prove it. Now I become a father. As a parent one of two courses is probable regarding how I deal with my own children -- I will either be a cruel and brutal father like my own dad, or I will react to that childhood cruelty by being very soft, permissive etc with my own kids, having taken a sacred vow to never treat my children as I had been treated. Either way, my actions as a parent are pre-determined by my own childhood experience.

We need to be aware that the horsocope shows not only our deep and immutable natural inclinations but also the nature of those early experiences. [Think on the essential and the accidental dignities]. Both our inherent nature and the nature of our formative experiences is shown in the horoscope. If this is so then there really isn't much room for a sovereign free will.

Liken your life to a ship,
departing San Francisco
and bound for Yokohama.
Once at sea, the command of the ship, its course, is in the hands of the master.
If he runs into a storm, or pirates,
or sirens beckoning from the rocks of Scylla, he can change course,
speed up, slow down...but he must arrive at Yokohama.
Depending on the time of departure from San Francisco,
those storms and pirates and sirens are already in his future path, waiting.
The changes of course the ship makes
(decisions, choices, free will)
are already determined
because the events to be met are there waiting.
The ship must respond to them,
and the captain's choices are determined by his character.

Two thousand years ago HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGERS did exactly as you recommend

THE NAUTICAL METAPHOR
or
ANALOGY OF A SHIP AT SEA


'…...Hellenistic astrologers use the nautical metaphor to describe a natal chart.
The ship itself = the native’s life = predominator.
First and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of predominator = winds that carry the ship to its destiny.
The third trigon (triplicity) lord = oars moving the ship.
Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of chart = ship owner = the one who sets agenda or destiny for native
under restrictions set by bound ruler of the pre-dominator.
Kurios (Lord of the nativity) = Captain of the ship = Executor = the one responsible to bring the ship to the destination
set by Oikodespotes (Domicile Master).....'



'…..Ascendant sign = “helm” of ship = physical life.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant = Helmsman = First Officer of ship.
Lot of Fortune = everything that befalls the native that is not of his own doing.
Domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune = man on prow of ship = Second Officer who is on the look out
for the things and/or events that are going to befall the native.
It is important that the Lord of Lot of Fortune be able to communicate with the Domicile Master or Ascendant (Helmsman)
or Lord of the nativity (Kurios)....'


Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
President Lincoln had a devil of a time finding a general who would fight the war and win. Then he found Grant. Here was courage, aggression, determination, tenacity in one package. Grant's character determined his choices in battle and won the war. That innate character met each passing circumstance -- made choices, exercised free will -- in accord with the general's inherent and acquired traits. In other words, his choices were pre-determined. McClellan would not have made the same choices.

A good book that has to do with this theme: Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl.
MORE ON THE NAUTICAL METAPHOR THAT COMPARES THE NATAL CHART TO A SHIP http://www.projecthindsight.com/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #24  
Unread 09-25-2014, 12:21 AM
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Thanks Greybeard for sharing these!

See below for my take on some of these transits, although I won't say too much as I do not have a visual of your Chart/s:

Pluto square Sun (8th) - Tension pulling one to ask very deep question/s that places one in a 'something has to give' state of being, there is incentive to transform sense of place in life/universe etc.

Neptune at the Ds - In my method of interpretation, I say Neptune is a planet that pulls one in with allure of mystery but then pushes one away to find 'answers' to its dissolving/confusing/dreamy energy...this then would have pushed you over to your transiting Jupiter which is a great planet to get answers/knowledge/expansion from....

Saturn Rx trine himself (waning trine from his own house) - The trine may of added to the feeling of a slave to destiny/cosmos that then becomes 'free' in that same realisation...

Jupiter crossing the Asc (and opp t.Neptune) - As I said earlier would have been providing the download of awakened/knowledge hitting your conscious mind/body...curious to know what sign this Jupiter was in?

Sec. Pr. Moon was crossing Asc, which she rules (conj. t.Jupiter & opp. t.Neptune) - Adding to the above self-realisations, although Moon crossing Asc. would have pulled you to a place where you feel you can nurture yourself/or where you feel at home,...namely the forest/woods!

Elra
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Unread 09-25-2014, 12:55 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
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Re: Does astrology make humans programmed souls?

Prediction in the past tense is so much fun Elra.
But that is how we learn.

As far as t.Jupiter's sign, I told you....look at progressed Moon. I don't usually talk about my own chart unless I think it can illustrate something. I was born 6 Feb 1942.

The experience was 12th House...the Slave and the Liberated slave...if you want to look at it that way. It was an "epiphany" with deep and far-reaching effects in my life. Natal Jupiter stands on the cusp of the 12th and by transit comes conjunct progressed Moon and opposition t.Neptune right across the horizon.

Funny that no one asks how the realization that I am a puppet results in freedom. How can being a puppet, a slave, a computer program lead to liberation? It does. But only if you can see it. But most of us see that free will is an illusion and then moan and groan about cruel fate.
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