Pluto Aspects lead to narcissism?

OuterPlanets89

Well-known member
I feel like hard Pluto aspects indicate a feeling of powerlessness as a child in some capacity, and this usually manifests itself in one of two ways, since Pluto is an extreme, black/white, all-or-nothing type of energy.

1) The person never wants to feel powerless again, and chooses to project this onto the world, with how they do it is determined by which planet(s) are aspected by Pluto, along with which aspect/house/sign. This is where the potential for Narcissism could come in.

- Sun/Pluto: The ego, in some capacity, was broken at an early age (sometimes could also = loss of father, literally or figuratively); person vows to not let others break their sense of self ever again (via hiding their true self, or over-compensating, in its negative manifestations)
- Moon/Pluto: Emotional safety was not present or taken away at an early age; person vows to shield or protect their deep emotions from others (becomes psychologically manipulative if immature).
- Mercury, Venus and Mars all have their own negative manifestations as well. Mercury using speech and logic to maintain control, Venus using attraction and love to do so, and Mars using will/force to do so.

2) The powerlessness felt by the person as a child causes them to explore this issue, and get to the true core of it, which is something mature Plutonians are able to do better than others. This can result in leaders, revolutionaries and people who are strong enough in their views to combat the more negative aspects/institutions of society.

--

I think that Pluto often represents our concept and perception of Free Will. Those who feel like they didn't have any free will early on can either use this inner pain to manipulate others to make themselves feel "in control" later on, or they can recognize the unfairness/imbalance from that situation, and use it to make a change in their behavior in the opposite direction (i.e. selflessness).

Whether you believe Free Will is real or not, human beings need it as a concept -- otherwise you could say Fatalism would win out. Plutonic people often come from an environment of power-imbalance, which can be from archaic societal structures (i.e. unhealthy familial patterns, immigrants dealing with a new country which doesn't accept them, or whatever else). Either way, Pluto gives them the power to "go deep" and use this energy to combat the imbalances that humanity has accrued over the years, taking them further away from our original essence.

Neptune on the other hand represents surrender and connectivity, which shows the interconnectedness of all things, beings, and actions/reactions. I could probably go on for a while but it's certainly an interesting topic. The outer planets are all quite fascinating to me (hence the username).
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
...Since Pluto is an extreme, black/white, all-or-nothing type of energy.

1) The person never wants to feel powerless again, and chooses to project this onto the world...

- Sun/Pluto: The ego, in some capacity, was broken at an early age (sometimes could also = loss of father, literally or figuratively); person vows to not let others break their sense of self ever again (via hiding their true self, or over-compensating, in its negative manifestations)
- Moon/Pluto: Emotional safety was not present or taken away at an early age; person vows to shield or protect their deep emotions from others

... Mercury using speech and logic to maintain control...

All this rings true for me! Pluto conjunct Sun and Mercury and square Moon.

This is all quite new to me, especially Pluto. REALLY nice post, Outer Planets, you put things in a way I can understand a lot better.

(I'm following you around these topics...)

I have a pretty complicated Pluto, and every little bit more I learn helps unravel just a little bit more of my complexes & neuroses. :)
 

OuterPlanets89

Well-known member
All this rings true for me! Pluto conjunct Sun and Mercury and square Moon.

This is all quite new to me, especially Pluto. REALLY nice post, Outer Planets, you put things in a way I can understand a lot better.

(I'm following you around these topics...)

I have a pretty complicated Pluto, and every little bit more I learn helps unravel just a little bit more of my complexes & neuroses. :)
Thanks, I really appreciate that!

All of that Pluto gives you a ton of potential, and self-awareness is the biggest step to turning that energy into something good. I'm trying to do that myself!
 
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love-thinking

Well-known member
I have
Mars in Pisces 7th Square Pluto (exact)
Sun in Capricorn 5th semi square Pluto (exact)
Midheaven in Gemini opposite Pluto (wide)
Ascendant in Virgo Square Pluto (wide)

Since narcissism leads to being power-hungry would this be prime examples of that? Personally ive self-diagnosed with it (need to diagnose it from proffesional)

There isnt alot about Sun Semi square pluto but i think its much more significant to me than i thought.

Well I don't know all the symptoms of NPD off the top of my head, but in general I can say that a geeneral disregard for others, an inflated sense of self and often characterized with fantasies of self-grandeur is often the case in NPD. NPD and all cluster B personality disorders are a defense mechanism and sometimes caused by trauma that also has effects on the brain (reducing hippocampus and amygdala size-there's a lot of processes that get to this point but this isn't a psych post). This neuro-biological state in general lead to bouts of dissociation, and overall a very poor ability to manage one's emotions. Also, hypervigilance caused by the amygdala to overreact to salient stimuli.

So in order to get to certain states, the moon needs to be damaged in some way, there needs to be neptune at least slightly involved, and there needs to be squares/oppositions (maybe even in-conjunctions if we are talking below 2 degrees).

So how do we get that? Something in the chart needs to spell out a need to compensate for the lost sense of self. Something in the chart needs to spell out not being full, the opposite state of being well/full/fulfilled/nurtured. Another thing that needs to be present is a tendency to dissociate and/or daydream which is neptune.


These fantasies are neptunian in nature (although neptune can bestow upon the person a heightened sense of compassion so other things must be present in the chart).

So moon in scorpio/opposite/square pluto or moon in the 8th with moon/mars/sun square/opposite neptune WITH at least the ascendent/moon or sun in a bitter nakshatra (jyeshta, mula, ardra, aslesha), with the North node(a restless empty entity known as rahu with no head and is always hungry that can rival neptune in its ability to day dream). For anti social tendencies, some aries signature (especially in aswini but also reveti -these are the naskatras, maybe something conjunct the planet Eris that's been in aries forever). Moon/Asc conjunct lilith and Algol is another aspect I find in incredibly damaged/broken people. So if the moon is not damaged by being debilitated in scorpio, with pluto, in the 8th house, in bitter nakshatras, or the moon/asc with north node, moon with algol/BML is an alternative indicator. Venus-Pluto is less likely to create someone narcissistic but can be a verifiable factor if you feel like the person whose chart you're reading is a narcissist.

The reason why I say this is because when the moon is THAT damaged, the individual is usually put in a situation where the abuse or the emotional pain is soo strong that they have to feed their sense of self through different means, and often go "rogue" to survive. This tendency is often present in tendencies when no matter what the child does, he/she is exposed to a lot of pain. For example, if a child is severely abused but are constantly told and reminded that parents are the best sources of love and these people will always love you no matter what. And if you don't love your parents, or have loving parents, there is something wrong with you. This will create a disorganized attachment style.

I'll give you an example (I don't have NPD though). I have moon in 8th opposite pluto. And I have a mom that has raised me. If I don't do what she wants, she will emotionally black mail me, say that I'll make her sick or go into the hospital even if what she wants is unreasonable and what I want is very reasonable. After the pain of losing my dad (he passed away), these threats are almost unbearable and often I get in line but also contemplate suicide. She was incredibly controlling when raising me. She even chose who my friends were. And if I didn't get in line, I was humiliated.

But it has turned me into a hyper-vigilant liar with an anxiety disorder. I don't know how to explain the feeling but surviving through as much trauma as I have, and learning to get what I want despite it being impossible sometimes, has almost wired me to be different from others. It makes me kind of have a different type of respect for myself. Seeing how illogical, immoral, non-self aware others are, I've learnt to hyper-analyze them, and sometimes even think about how I can play them like pieces on a chess board. I've learned how each and every person has the potential to hurt me and in what ways they may be defective. I have kind of a plan to get what I want, and even have my suicide mapped out if nothing works out. Because I've personally made a choice to go full at it, protecting myself from pain in anyway shape or form and enabling self preservation.

Note: I have moon in 8th opposite pluto conjunct algol in the sign of taurus (exalted). And I have rahu (north node) in the first house. Don't know whether I'm NPD but I do try my best not to be a bad person and live morally. But I have trained myself to operate in ways that are almost too tragic and relentless for the average person.

But anyways:

Without these features, I seriously doubt you're narcissistic. Sun-pluto is not bad although the square is hard. I think you're probably incredibly choosey and critical with your virgo but probably has faced creulty and aggressiveness from authority or the father or males in general. However, I did read a post on this site called chirotic journal, that sun-pluto aspects does lead to megalomaniacal ways. To be honest, I think others probably find you too critical, fault finding and you find yourself megalomaniacal which lead you to diagnose yourself with a unsavory mental disorder.
 
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