The Twelfth House

Carris

Well-known member
I was a young "idealist" who was honorable and who stood up for principles, but when it came to the pain in ordinary people's lives, I just didn't see it, or rather I did not have compassion about it.

Look at my chart, then consider someone with the 12th house placements I have who is not compassionate. I think we all have to learn compassion, but I had a mega-dose of experiences coming my way that would show me I had no choice but to change. I went through deep depression, but I coped. At about age 30, I was knocked on my butt, and in the years that followed, during the Saturn transits to my 2nd house, I felt as if everything had been taken away from me. It was a very "internal" experience.

This is so true for me. My saturn in 12th made me see the importance of compassion and empathy - all my ill-considered careless inconsiderate words/actions came back to bite me in the most painful way possible. The problem was I never thought of myself as an inconsiderate person when I was younger - I just behaved the way I saw my parents, family and community behave - why did saturn not correct me when I was younger? Why did he wait till I was in my twenties to show me the reality? In that sense saturn is harshest of all teachers - but perhaps the most effective - you never want to forget his lessons.

Doesn't this sort of come down to free will vs. predetermination? If so, how much of our lives is predetermined? How much is up to us?

From what I have read, we have free-will only in regards our attitude, thoughts, words and actions. The major events and situations of our lives are fixed before we incarnate - this is kind of like choosing a college program for our spiritual growth - the study course and exams are fixed but it completely depends on us how we perform. For example, a soul might choose to experience poverty - but it depends on him whether he will be strong and work his way out of it or become complaining, bitter and apathetic. It does sound harsh - but thats the way the spirit world works.
 
Last edited:

sandstone

Banned
hi gaer,

i like your energy and philosophical position on the topics you are discussing here.

there are so many ways to take the astro data and process it.. i find myself having to be respectful of others views, while still holding to my own.. let me share some of what i see off your chart as a means of sharing some of my astro views on the 12th and etc. however anyone wants to view life around the age of 30, it is an interesting turning point and one that is well documented in psychology and astrology.. mostly astrologers associate this time frame with cycle of saturn, its sign and place shedding light on how it might unfold for the person. often a major change happens around this time where a person who has been going in one direction has some type of wake up call whereby they need to consider going in a different direction if self realization is going to remain a possibility..

i like looking at signs and how planets align within them.. for me virgo will always be the 12th sign to libra.. in this sense saturn has a 12th house/sign to the strong focus of libra in your chart. further to this i like looking at 40 degree aspects which show up as conjunctions in the navamsha chart that folks in vedic like to use.. this chart brings together saturn/neptune in your chart.. i see neptune as having a 12th house flavour to it which would include concepts life karma, and reincarnation which you mention in your post.. i guess that is all i want to say about whether saturn is in the 12th or 1st or whatever here.. there are so many ways to slice an apple!

yes our world view will impact our view of astrology and can quickly explain why astrology is practiced differently in india then it generally is in the west.. it would also explain why the fascination with hellenistic or medieval astrology seems to capture some folks imagination more then others too.

yes, the position of saturn in a chart is influenced by a number of astro factors that some might or might not consider depending on there level of involvement.. i do see the 'pay the piper' as having much to do with saturn too, but i guess i am repeating myself! saturn transits in a younger persons chart, or someone prior to the age of 30 can knock a person down and force them to look hard on there life and where they are going long term..

thanks for sharing the story on the man who told you ' you are not kind'.. that was helpful for you at that moment in time.. i think idealism goes with being young, sometimes more so.. those of us from the era of the 60s and 70s especially in the west seemed to have a lot of it.. i say that for myself as well and while i may still be idealistic, i feel like i have been able to maintain a position of compassion in it all as well.. life gives people different lessons, or opportunities at different times.. sometimes they might not look like opportunities too..

i really liked your post and comments gaer.. maybe it would have been wiser for me to quote the whole thing and go over it point by point, but i haven't here.. ideas of compassion make me think a few different astro thoughts and while i can see some connection to the 12th, i think jupiter and neptune and the elements water and air which i think have some crazy dynamic between one another that i have yet to fully understand.. thanks for your post..
 

lilly02

Active member
Hello,

Not every astrologer would agree with this 6 degree rule. I would interpret your Saturn as being in the twelfth and conjunct your ascendant, not as being in the first and twelfth simultaneously. On the other hand, an astrologer who uses whole signs would interpret your Saturn as being in the first conjunct your ascendent.

Also, have you used the Gauquelin Chart feature on astro.com? You might have other planets in some of the other key sectors.

Hello RaptInReverie,

Thank you for your answer and opinion about the 6° rule.

I used AstroWin for Gauquelin Plus Zone Planets. According to this software I have Saturn and Neptune in this zone. I have North Node rising too.

I found Howard Sasportas's "Twelve houses" ; “Your Secret Self –Illuminating the mysteries of your twelfth house” by Tracy Marks and Lake Gina’s “ Symbol of the Souls” very rich in information about this house.

The 12th house is associated with the "umbilical effect" and how the embryo is affected, the childhood and the early parental relationship. There are also the institutions like hospitals, orphanages, prisons, libraries , mental institutions and other institutions where the people are stored away, hidden, in the background. If a person choose a job in such an institution this house may be positive. It is a good house for research, withdrawal, public welfare, charity, voluntary work.
The confinement may be voluntary or involuntary. We may ” choose” to live in some remote location or work to serve humanity or being involuntary confined in a mental institution, hospital, prison, etc.
The energies of a planet in a 12th house are turned inward and the effects may be advantageous or detrimental. It is also a karmic experience along with South Node.
The 12th house may be a hidden weakness but also a hidden strength and “dream life”, imagination, meditation, introspection.

The 12 th house sign cusp is important , the 12th house ruler and the aspects from the 12th planet and his ruler, the houses implied in aspects are all important.

For instance a strong aspect between my 12th and my 8th house influence my dream life (I dream about the death person before her/his death. At 7 years I first announced my parents that somebody in our family was to die and two days after my dream there was an accident and my mother’s brother died in a sudden way ; after this first experience, dreams about death occurred all the tife.) This aspect emphasis an interest in occult, psychology, too.

We have aspects, energies but we don’t know how a person uses them. The chart as a whole may be interesting but analyzing only the 12th house planets we can’t see all the picture.

Moon in the 12th is concerned with professions but there is also the possibility with the Moon here to live the mother's death in the early childhood. Of course, not all the Moons here are concerned with this, the other elements in the chart give a direction for this Moon. I know a friend with the Moon in the 12th conjunct the Ascendant. Her Moon is in Scorpio as the Ascendant, and indeed her mother died when she was 6. Moon in Scorpio is also concerned with death of the mother.

The 12th house is the hidden facet but also the hidden strenght. There may be difficult to tolerate failure ( with Leo, Sun or Saturn here). There is a capacity to create an intention and to manifest it in practice with Sun or Leo.

The 12 th house aspects and the houses involved in aspects are very important. With many trines or sextiles or beneficial planets in the 12th - the previous life was full of love, generosity, inner developpement. In this life the person may be rewarded for his past positive actions.
The energies from the 12th are directed in the other houses with aspects from the 12th and the houses they rule. But there are 2 possibilities: a postive construction of these aspects or a tendecy toward escapism.

Tracy Mark has a psychological approach and I found very interesting her book for the positive and negative sides - involving planets, aspects, houses involved- the whole chart.
 

gaer

Well-known member
hi gaer,

i like your energy and philosophical position on the topics you are discussing here.
I don't want to write a book, so I'll try to answer some of your thoughts, on the fly. It's great to have an in depth discussion of such matters.

About age 30: the link to Saturn is obvious. What I hear less about is Uranus, which forms a square to itself at age 21. Then at age 28 (approximately) it trines itself. At 21 we have an incredibly strong need for independence and often find outselves totally at odds with our parents, or society in general. "Never trust anyone over 30." The middle 20s can be a period of incredible freedom, and by that time we may have jobs that allow us to do the things we want to do. We are old enough to be treated seriously. Our bodies are still young. At this age we see athletes hit their peak, although in some sports they may continue for another decade. But not in sports like tennis, where endurance and recovery time rule everything.

Somewhere between about age 28 and a year or so later, as age 30 is just around the corner, all sorts of things change. People who are unusually wise in their 20s sail through this difficult period, but I think even they usually have to make some kind of difficult adjustment. Those of us who have not been doing our homework get slammed by reality. I think that about age 30 we realize, for the first time, how mortal we are.

At age 30, approximately, I not only had Saturn conjuncting itself, it all happened in the 12th. At the same time I had Pluto transiting my 2nd house, all my Libra planets, including Sun and Moon. Uranus conjuncted Mars. I think what happened should be rather obvious to anyone who has studied charts and transits. :)

I think we are all potentially able to read our own charts better than anyone else, dependent on how hard we have worked to be honest with ourselves.

When Saturn entered the first quadrant when I was very young, I was cut off from other people. I lived in my own world and had no friends. Almost exactly as Saturn moved past my IC, and away from my 2nd house and 3rd houses, everything changed, though slowly. At the end of high school, just about the time Saturn moved past my DC into the 7th, I got nothing but recognition, and the moment I entered college my life totally changed. Looking back at the whole cycle, I can see clearly just how it all played out. I had my greatest success about the time Saturn passed my MC. I became invisible, again, when Saturn passed into my first quadrant again for the 3rd time (past the second Saturn return). Just now Saturn has moved past my 2nd house planets, presently Rx but not again getting any closer than 5 degrees to my Moon, and after three years of nearly losing my career it has come roaring back.

So in my life these cycles have been eerily valid.

The "pay the piper" theme in my life is directly linked to dealing with loneliness (Saturn/Venus in the 12th) combined with explosive, destructive anger (Mars/Pluto square, among other things). It is about learning that loneliness is not caused by being a victim, it is caused by what we project, and I was projecting arrogance, coldness, and to some extent cruelty (because of fighting back imappropriately), and it was all destroying my life.

When I think in terms of reincarnation, even considering it as a reality, I always see myself as a responsible, honorable person with power, but one who was incredibly intollerant, judgmental. Sort of a cold-hearted judge, condemning other people whom I did not see as worthy of being respected or deserving compassion/mercy. Everytime I go in that direction in this life, I get totally slammed. I see other people getting away with it, although I am sure that ultimately it will destroy them too. For me it feels as though I get no breaks in that direction, and it feels RIGHT that I don't get them. At some point we become aware of incredible faults, and ignorance is no longer a defense. We feel that they are deeply ingrained, habits, and suddenly they just don't work any more. We HAVE to change.

That is how I see 12th house lesson. Thus the potential undoing. You learn and change, or you are destroyed. No more free passes. Time to do hard work!

That's where the comment about "not being kind" came from. I was radiating coldness, arrogance. People who are very judgmental are cruel. When I began studying astrology and considering reincarnation, it was very easy to imagine what I said above. You can't be kind in this world if you are convinced that you are better, or superior to others. And that was where I was stuck. I still take on that attitude when I am angry or resentful, but now I catch myself about 1000 times faster and keep moving forward on a different path. :)
 
Last edited:

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Gaer,

I also have Venus in 26°26’ Leo in the twelfth house and Virgo on the Asc. Everything you said about your inherent tendencies of intolerance, arrogance, superiority, and judgment really resonate with me, for I have them too. Fortunately I have learned early on how destructive these traits can be, and I have humbled myself tremendously, although I have a ways to go still. I receive no leniency in this area either; when I resort to these old habits, I am immediately chastised, whereas, like you said, other people seem to get away with it.

A lot of this has to do with Saturn and its aspects; however, my Saturn is not in the twelfth.
 

Carris

Well-known member
Gaer,

I also have Venus in 26°26’ Leo in the twelfth house and Virgo on the Asc. Everything you said about your inherent tendencies of intolerance, arrogance, superiority, and judgment really resonate with me, for I have them too. Fortunately I have learned early on how destructive these traits can be, and I have humbled myself tremendously, although I have a ways to go still. I receive no leniency in this area either; when I resort to these old habits, I am immediately chastised, whereas, like you said, other people seem to get away with it.

A lot of this has to do with Saturn and its aspects; however, my Saturn is not in the twelfth.
Maybe the 12th has to do with "instant karma" as a form of spiritual growth? Since atleast the three of us are experiencing our 12th planets in this way. I wonder if other 12th people experience their 12th planets in a similar way.

It could also be seen in terms of the axis - since the 6th requires hard work to maintain our earthly selves, maybe the 12th requires this kind of "hard work" (i.e. to always have to be kind, compassionate, considerate, etc. Not allowed even an inch of deviation) to maintain our spiritual selves.

Also RIR, your venus is in a Gauquelin sector - do you have a venus type of career or vocation? Or do you have to work in a venus like way?
 
Last edited:

StillOne

Well-known member
You can't be kind in this world if you are convinced that you are better, or superior to others.
Very wise assessment gaer. I enjoyed reading and pondering your post. Thanks for the thoughtful insight.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it yet in this post... I also have my Moon in the 12th house Gemini (equal, placidus and whole sign). Any thoughts on this placement?

For a long time now I've strived to be humble and compassionate. I do need quite a bit of solitude in order to recharge. I've tried to reduce my ego although I feel I still have work to do there. Gemini makes my emotional structure more analytical... it actually works surprisingly well with my Mercury in scorpio although they are quincunx...
 

Carris

Well-known member
Very wise assessment gaer. I enjoyed reading and pondering your post. Thanks for the thoughtful insight.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it yet in this post... I also have my Moon in the 12th house Gemini (equal, placidus and whole sign). Any thoughts on this placement?

For a long time now I've strived to be humble and compassionate. I do need quite a bit of solitude in order to recharge. I've tried to reduce my ego although I feel I still have work to do there. Gemini makes my emotional structure more analytical... it actually works surprisingly well with my Mercury in scorpio although they are quincunx...
The moon is supposed to show where we are most at home, comfortable, where things come automatically, unconsciously, instinctively, spontaneously. Perhaps your moon in 12th makes you feel comfortable talking/communicating/seeking/learning (gemini) about 12th house significations (spirituality, selflessness, altruism, letting go, feeling detached from the world, compassion, etc). Perhaps, the moon would make these things innate, instinctive, spontaneous in you. If the moon is the ruler of the ascendent, then this would be even more so.

As far as "instant karma" is concerned, maybe the 12th would try to curb the moon's negative aspects - for example you would be instantly chastised for getting too emotional, being irrational, moody, nad habits, prejudices, etc.

Does this sound somewhat true for you?
 

sandstone

Banned
hi gaer,

thanks for your insightful post... i like your overview on how the cycles overlap and suggestion to not ignore the uranus cycle or the fact that pluto transit to the libra planets coincide with saturn return to better describe your unique experience around the age of 30.

i see the saturn/venus conjunction and the mars/pluto square in your chart having a lot to do with this observation made by the man when you were very young.. for me saturn can be the judgmental part that gives the cold shoulder to those that don't measure up to ones sense of values as described by venus to an extent.. perhaps saturn/venus conj the 12th doesn't allow one to fool themselves, but i am not so sure.. again, i see saturn rising as not letting a person get away with anything and more 1st house in nature, but i am going over previous ground here.. the issue of what house planets land in will remain a very personal matter.. the chart can only properly be read by the persons who it belongs to as you said and to which i agree.

regardless, planetary combos like this conjunction of saturn/venus are significant and need to be understood fully.. less is more would be a part of it.. cutting things/people out of your life superfluous to it would be another part of it.. that might come across as cold and ruthless to others, but more pragmatic to you.. saturn will have dominate..

planetary combos - especially a conjunction, pack a strong punch in a chart, with the mars/pluto square providing the follow thru in no uncertain terms..i think you've expressed your personal understanding of this 4 planet combo together really well.. maybe there is more 12th house to it then i am seeing as i haven't lived your life...

i think you have also articulated the cycle of saturn thru the different hemispheres quite well here too.. i was commenting on another thread to someone how saturn is moving up towards their midheaven which often coincides with a period of achievement if a person is strongly focused on a goal they are working towards with determination.. this will hinge on saturns natal location and other factors too, but saturn rising up by transit towards the midheaven is very different then saturn moving down over the ascendant into the lower part of the chart. in this sense the 12th house area in relation to saturns cycle is a type of letting go and retaining the wisdom of what did or didn't work in preparation for the next cycle.. we only have a few of these cycles in life - usually 2 or 3 at most and not everyone has saturn in close proximity to the ascendant as do the both of us.. thanks for the comments.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Does this sound somewhat true for you?
It sure does. Thanks for the interpretation Carris!

The moon is supposed to show where we are most at home, comfortable, where things come automatically, unconsciously, instinctively, spontaneously. Perhaps your moon in 12th makes you feel comfortable talking/communicating/seeking/learning (gemini) about 12th house significations (spirituality, selflessness, altruism, letting go, feeling detached from the world, compassion, etc). Perhaps, the moon would make these things innate, instinctive, spontaneous in you. If the moon is the ruler of the ascendent, then this would be even more so.
Thanks for reminding me about the other areas that the Moon is responsible for. I tend to get caught thinking that the Moon is only responsible for emotions when that's just one aspect of it! Also I'm glad that you mentioned that there would be additional focus on this since the Moon would be my chart ruler.

This makes things quite interesting in light of my interests in 12th house matters as we've discussed them in this thread. I agree with your assessment that I quite enjoy exploring the realms of spirituality; contemplating, discussing, learning about, etc. I do find myself rather grounded in 12th house elements (I also have SN conjunct Saturn here) and feel that there may be previous lives spent in this type of area as it seems like a familiar realm to me. One thought I had, since my NN is in the 6th, was that maybe my destiny involves bringing 12th house experience/knowledge into some type of service for people.

As far as "instant karma" is concerned, maybe the 12th would try to curb the moon's negative aspects - for example you would be instantly chastised for getting too emotional, being irrational, moody, nad habits, prejudices, etc.
Indeed, I always feel bad when I go against common moral beliefs. I strive to not engage my ego. I can't stand arrogance.
 

Carris

Well-known member
There are some really intelligent and interesting ancient astrological teachings...

Around the fifth century B.C. there appeared for the first time maxims that related a man's birthdate to his possible destiny. At first these predictions were obviously made only for the kings. The forecasts were based on the motion of the planets. Here are a few examples translated by Sachs:

If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long.
If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long.
"If a child is born when Venus has come forth, (then his life will be) exceptionally calm; wherever he may go, it will be favorable; his days will be long.

In general, the rising (i.e. the 12th HOUSE!) of heavenly bodies was considered favorable because then the positive characteristics of the gods were at their peak. By contrast, the setting of the same bodies was held to be a bad omen.

The tablets that recorded the forecasts based on the setting of the planets have been lost, but we know the evil influence attributed to the setting from the previsions based on the motions of two planets at a time, one of which is on the way up, the other on the way down: "If a child is born when Jupiter comes forth and Venus has set, it will go excellently with that man; his wife will leave and . . ." The rest of the fragment is missing, but its meaning is clear. We have seen that Jupiter represents the King. If it rises when Venus, its bride, disappears over the horizon: "his wife will leave," that is, she will have to die before him.

The decline of Jupiter was a bad omen for the King: "If a child is born when Venus comes forth and Jupiter has set, his wife will be stronger than he." As she rises, Venus dominates her groom, Jupiter, who is disappearing in the darkness. Some royal predictions based on the twelve signs of the zodiac have been found.

The Chaldeans were quite clear about the rising and setting of planets - they definitely thought of the 12th house as a very positive place!

Astrology was born five thousand years ago in Chaldea. The Chaldeans developed the zodiacal system, which astronomers still use. The Babylonians, who succeeded the Sumerians, developed the art of prediction to a considerable extent. The Chaldean priest-astronomers divided the sky into three large strips, which they called "the heavenly paths" - in the middle was Anu's way, flanked by the paths of Enlil and Ea. Anu's way was the zodiac astronomers use today: a space sixteen degrees wide, which contains the constantly repeated path of the sun, the moon, and the planets.

The zodiacal belt with its constellations was known in Babylonia as early as 700 b.c. The rules by which predictions were made were a mixture of observations and analogies. For instance, the shape of Scorpio reminded the Chaldean priest of the hated insect whose pincers seemed to be marked in the sky by two brilliant stars. The celestial Scorpio was held to be just as fearsome as the poisonous scorpion of the desert: "If Mars approaches Scorpio, the King must die of the bite of this insect."

The priests had some difficulty in following Mercury, since that planet, the closest to the sun, is often hidden by the latter's stronger light. The Chaldeans held it to be the dwelling of Nebo, a god who was untrustworthy, shy, shrewd, and voluble.
 

Anachiel

Well-known member
I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Additionally, when we take the signficator of a house (like in horary this used much more), we are then simply looking at what that planet is doing with or to other planets to find an answer. Whereas, in natal astrology the placements of the planets seem to be emphasized. Therein, might be part of the conundrum when we speak about planets being in the 12th. They may actually still be in the ASC according to older rules. Perhaps the 12th is not directly above the ASC but farther up....

Also, this may be where the signs and houses started, at one point in recent (modern) history to be the same thing, like Aries=the 1st and Pisces the 12th, etc. Perhaps there is some division that we are not seeing there as well that distinguishes, along with the cusp of the houses, the difference between the ASC and the 12th.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....
Anachiel, it was on the "Whole Sign Or Placidus?" thread that dr. farr mentioned that although "cusps" are now used as "borders", historically in fact "cusps" actually ARE the middle of the house as you have recalled - and there was a discussion of this at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311413#post311413 :smile:
Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Dorotheus, 1st century AD, seems to have used houses, for he speaks of "cadent" and " the seventh from the Ascendant," and Valens, 2nd century AD, describes the Porphyry quadrant system of houses. The basis for so dividing the sky, according to Valens, was that a noticeable decrease in the strength of the planets as they became more distant from the angle whose quadrant they occupied seemed to occur, and the houses may have been developed at least in part with a view to identifying these zones of power.
 

Zaphod

Well-known member
Most of the commonly used quadrant house systems (not all) are actually divisions of the equator, with the "results" of the division expressed in celestial longitude, that is, along the ecliptic. But the divisions are actually equatorial and then projected onto the ecliptic.

This is a point I was trying to make in another thread. The Ascendant and Midheaven longitudes are first located on the ecliptic and a perpendicular is dropped to the celestial equator from each one, creating the Right Ascension Ascendant and MC. Using trigonmetry, the distance between these points along the equator is calculated and then divided either according to time or space (depending on house system) into three segments, after which a perpendicular is raised from each of the two intermediary points on the equator to the ecliptic, thus providing the zodiacal degree on each house boundary. I understand from reading an old book by Charles Jayne that L. Edward Johndro used this method to perform SA directions: first convert each planet's ecliptical longitude into Right Ascension, apply the Solar Arc increment to those positions, and than convert the new RA positions back into ecliptical longitude. This is also why Pluto with its exaggerated orbit can be in the 1st House by zodiacal longitude but its "rising point" as measured in Right Ascension can actually be in the 12th House when it is at its maximum northern celestial latitude. Some quadrant systems use the Prime Vertical instead of the celestial equator. For all practical purposes, Tables of House (and now computers) do all of the heavy lifting for us so the most we ever have to learn is double interpolation. As I understand it, Right Ascension is mainly used by astronomers to keep track of the diurnal motion - rising, culminating, setting - of all celestial bodies. While researching Right Ascension last year I found some excellent diagrams of the various quadrant systems in the Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology.
 
Last edited:

Carris

Well-known member
I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Additionally, when we take the signficator of a house (like in horary this used much more), we are then simply looking at what that planet is doing with or to other planets to find an answer. Whereas, in natal astrology the placements of the planets seem to be emphasized. Therein, might be part of the conundrum when we speak about planets being in the 12th. They may actually still be in the ASC according to older rules. Perhaps the 12th is not directly above the ASC but farther up....

Also, this may be where the signs and houses started, at one point in recent (modern) history to be the same thing, like Aries=the 1st and Pisces the 12th, etc. Perhaps there is some division that we are not seeing there as well that distinguishes, along with the cusp of the houses, the difference between the ASC and the 12th.
But - what about all the births when the ascendant was in beginning of signs and planets were in the previous sign?

There must be many people born with ascendants at 0 to 10 degrees of a sign and planets in the previous sign. In that case are the planets not considered to be in the 12th house - even in whole house system?

My saturn was 20 degrees risen above the eastern horizon when I was born - would you consider that as the 1st house? Saturn was in 15 gemini and my ascendant is 5 cancer. Are you saying that the ancients would consider gemini to be my 1st house? That does not make sense! They are very clear about rising and setting planets and what that means.

Lets suppose: The chaldean king was born with jupiter at 21* aries and ascendant at 10* taurus. So would the ancients still consider jupiter to be in the 1st house? Would the king not be considered lucky anymore? Jupiter would not be considered as "rising" anymore?

Chaldea (modern day Iraq) is land bound on the east and west and somewhat mountainous - planets had to be risen quite a bit before they became visible on the eastern horizon - so they had to definitely be in the 12th house.
 
Last edited:

dr. farr

Well-known member
In the example given, whole sign (ie, Hellenist astrology, not Babylonians or Egyptians) would consider the 1st house to be all of the sign of Taurus, and the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be in the 12th whole sign house.
But the ancients also considered the concept of "rising bow" and "descending bow" (see for example al-Biruni, 1058 AD), which were segments (!!) consisting of 3 houses:
+Risng Bow (considered auspicious as a segment, vide al-Biruni, also Maximus, etc) segments were houses (whole signs) 1,2, 3, and also 10, 11 and 12
+Descending Bow (considered unfortunate or difficult as a segment) segments were houses (whole signs) 4,5,6 and 7, 8, 9

So, in the given example, the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be:
a) in the 12th whole sign house
b) in the Rising Bow
...giving a mixed indication (delineation-wise) with a slightly more favorable cast to it because of the "benefic" quality of the planet concerned (Jupiter)
 

Zaphod

Well-known member
But the ancients also considered the concept of "rising bow" and "descending bow" (see for example al-Biruni, 1058 AD), which were segments (!!) consisting of 3 houses:
+Risng Bow (considered auspicious as a segment, vide al-Biruni, also Maximus, etc) segments were houses (whole signs) 1,2, 3, and also 10, 11 and 12
+Descending Bow (considered unfortunate or difficult as a segment) segments were houses (whole signs) 4,5,6 and 7, 8, 9

So, in the given example, the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be:
a) in the 12th whole sign house
b) in the Rising Bow
...giving a mixed indication (delineation-wise) with a slightly more favorable cast to it because of the "benefic" quality of the planet concerned (Jupiter)

Hemisphere emphasis in 1058? Seems like it must be a vestige of the solar myth about the daily death and rebirth of the Sun.
 

Carris

Well-known member
In the interpretations by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, the risings of the planets are mentioned again and again: "If a child is born while Venus is rising, his life will be quiet, rich, wherever he goes he will be loved, he will live long. . ." (Gundel, 1933). "If a child is born at the instant of Jupiter rising and Mars setting, he will be lucky and will see the fall of his enemy" (Shulman, 1978).

The historians of astrology unanimously point out that rise, and increasingly with the Greeks also culmination, were considered to be the most important positions in the planets' diurnal motion (Boll, Bezold, Gundel, 1966; Henseling, 1924, van der Waerden, 1966, ). According to Plato, who believed the celestial bodies to be the visible gods, the gods were filled with a special joy at the instant of the planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, as well as upon meeting a planet with whom they were "on friendly terms" (Gundel, 1966).
 
Top