Pars Foruna in different places in Placidus and equal charts

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi everyone,

I was wonderig if someone could help me understand this. I have pars fortuna in the 4th house in the equal house chart, but the POF is in the third house in the Placidus chart. Does this mean a sibling is going to receive money meant for me? How do you explain the conflict in the placement of the POF?
I am unable to download a chart here. Sorry about that.
These are natal charts, by the way. Maybe this should have been in the natal section?
Could someone help with this? Thanks you very much ahead of time?
Pluto9th
Here is my birth info


Apr 28 1959
9:37 pm
Santa Monica, CA
USA
 
Last edited:
B

Bob

Pluto9th, (10th really)

The Lot of Fortune is supposed to be used with the 'whole sign' house system. In itself the Fortuna house system is an equal house system of its own. The lot describes everything that will physically happen to you. It could mean becoming rich, but it could also mean getting poor. It could mean good health or it could mean poor health, it needs delineating from its own perspective.

Does this mean a sibling is going to receive money meant for me?

All I will say is that any legacy you become involved in will not go smoothly.

Good wishes

Bob
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Bob,
Thank you for replying. Can you recommend a site or sites that have more information about the POF?
I now use only the classical equal sign house system for my natal chart. I think that the argument for it is very sound.

Pluto9th (you're right, it should be 10th!)
 
B

Bob

Hi Pluto9th & all,

The Lot of Fortune has only recently (last ten years or so) begun to be understood properly, most of this due to the work of Robert Schmidt and the team at Project Hindsight. I did produce a treatise on the Lot of Fortune some twenty odd years ago for my first astrology qualification, after which I compiled an encyclopaedic book on the use of it, in every sign, every house, with every planet and every major Ptolemaic aspect. Unfortunately, the websites I have seen where the Lot of Fortune has been used are mostly using it in error, or extremely superficially as a single place/degree. Being that it is capable of showing issues related to the physical body, luck (good & bad), health and general prosperity throughout ones entire life it is a lot more complicated than just being a degree in a sign. The book I have on it is over 600 pages long at the present time.

To give you a little heads up on it, the Lot of Fortune degree is the ascendant of the Fortuna system. As an example, if one has the Lot of Fortune at 10 degrees of Aries, 10 degrees of Taurus is its second house, 10 degrees of Gemini is its third house and so on. There are certain rules that need to be applied, and the first is the calculation; in a day chart one measures the longitude difference from the Sun to the Moon and then adds that distance to the natal ascendant. In a night chart one measures from the Moon to the Sun and adds that distance to the natal ascendant. If the Lot of Fortune degree as related to the birth sect falls in a cadent house, then one uses the opposite measurement (for the timing of events) which would be traditionally called the Lot of Spirit. However, I should mention that Ptolemy used the Sun to the Moon for both day and night births but Dorotheus and Valens who were both practicing astrologers used the reverse formula for nocturnal births. I do likewise.

Once the calculation has been performed, the next operation is to find where it lands in the natal chart. If it be angular, it will have a strong presence in ones life. If it be succeedent it will have a moderate effect in ones life, and if it be cadent it will have a fairly weak influence in ones life. With that said, wherever it falls it will affect the four houses represented by the angularity. The same technique can be applied to the signs; Cardinal = strong, Fixed = mediocre, Mutable = weak, though it does have the power to influence the sign it is placed in. Suffice to say, if it be in a cardinal sign and in an angular house it will have a tremendous influence in the nativity, for good or ill. A new Moon birth will have the Lot of Fortune around the ascendant and a full Moon birth will put it around the descendant. (a good rectification tool).

The next consideration is whether there are any planets in the same sign as the Lot of Fortune ascendant, as these will greatly help of hinder the Lot by their very nature and condition. Next comes the lord of the sign of the Lot of Fortune by nature, placement and condition. Here comes a bit that will throw many of you into confusion; a square to the Lot of Fortune is much more favourable than a trine… However, it does help of hinder the Lot by the nature and condition of the planet squaring the Lot. The best position to hold is the 10th house from the Lot itself (a dexter square). The reason a square is better than a trine is because it is angular with respect to the Lot of Fortune ascendant.

This is all I have time for now, but it should be enough to get most of you started.


Good wishes


Bob
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Bob,

Thank you for the information.
I would like to ask a few questions.
I don't know how to create a chart by hand, so I don't know exactly how to convert the longitude into a sign's degree, minute and seconds. You say that a nocturnal birth should use the reverse formula which is added to the natal ascendent. Could you give an example of how that works? Also,
is my pars fortuna correctly placed in my natal chart's 4th house?
Thank you ahead of time!
Pluto9th
 
B

Bob

Hi Pluto9th,

You say that a nocturnal birth should use the reverse formula which is added to the natal ascendent. Could you give an example of how that works?

I most certainly can, and I will use your chart to show you how.

Your Sun is in the bottom half of your chart which is called a nocturnal (nighttime) chart. Because it is a nocturnal chart we start measuring from your Moon which is at 29.49 in Capricorn. Your Sun is at 8.07 in Taurus. The distance is now measured...

You have 0.11 minutes left in Capricorn, a whole 30.00 degrees of Aquarius, 30.00 degrees of Pisces, 30.00 of Aries and 8.07 of Taurus.

3 x 30 degrees = 90 degrees
8.07 + 11 minutes of Capricorn = 8.18

90 degrees + 8.18 = 98.18 degrees

Now we count 98.18 degrees from your ascendant.

Your ascendant is 4.08 in Sagittarius.

What I do now is add the 98.18 degrees to the 4.08 giving us a total of 102.26. Because I added the ascendant degree on to the Sun/Moon total we can now count from the beginning of your ascendant sign a total of 102.26.

Sagittarius = 30.00 +
Capricorn 30.00 = 60.00 +
Aquarius 30.00 = 90.00 + 12.26 into Pisces.

So your Lot of Fortune is 12.26 degrees Pisces.

is my pars fortuna correctly placed in my natal chart's 4th house?

Yes, your Lot of Fortune is in your 4th house ruled by the benefic planet Jupiter.

I hope this helps, if you are not sure of anything feel free to ask.



Good wishes


Bob
 

SimplyRed

Well-known member
Same for me, POF in aries and change of sign . from Aries to Taurus.:)
Thanks for the above about the POF. It would be important cause it represents the ascendant, moon, and sun.

Actually, after accidentally receiving a report for equal house, my chart makes more sense.

Astrologers often use Koch or equal house.

Using the Vertex or POF for the ascendant is revealing,
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Bob, and Simply Red,

Bob, I really appreciate that you took the time to explain this. Yes, it makes perfect sense. If I have any more questions I'll ask again. Thank you!
Simply red,
Did you see other shifts in your equal house chart? My mercury and sun also moved over a house, so that my mercury is in the 5th and the sun is in the 6th. Do you think the Placidus chart is invalid or does it it reveal some kind of conflict? What do you think?
Bob, what do you think about the chart conflicts in planet placement?

Pluto9th
 

SimplyRed

Well-known member
My sun moves into third house, mercury into second, and pluto into eight house. Second or third for sun. Guess that is the major question. It is big issue for the sun to change houses, as your life force is more focused in another area.

I view POF in Taurus to be more accurate than Aries

Neptune and Saturn are in 10th house by equal house.

My fifth cusp became Taurus and the description suited me much more for some reason. Doing earthy things are fun to me.

Guess play with it and see which fits the best. A few people's do not change much at all.
 
B

Bob

Re: Pars Fortuna in different places in Placidus and equal charts

Hi all,

With regard to different house systems there is a lot of conflict and a great deal of misunderstanding within the astrological community. Prior to the medieval times there was no, or very little conflict. It would seem that if you were an astrologer during the medieval period one was obliged to invent a house system. What is known today as the Placidus house system was around, and in popular use at least a hundred years before Placidus de Tito was even born. Then we have the Porphyry house system which was actually invented by Vettius Valens. Another was the system invented by Jean Baptiste Morin who goes his own way in every respect. Now we come to Ptolemy who is said to have invented his own equal house system which starts 5 degrees above the ascendant, what is curious is he did not use it himself, he used the whole sign house system. He did a similar thing with the Ptolemaic planetary dignities listed in a table on another thread. The problem here is, he used the Egyptian dignities, even though he did not like them because he could find no logical pattern in the way they were presented.

Apart from Ptolemy’s equal house system and the whole sign house system, all others are known as quadrant house systems. The difference is, in the quadrant house systems where the Mc is marked as the middle of the heavens from ones present/birth location. Every house system, with the exception of Morin agrees on the same ascendant position. The equal house and the whole sign house system share the same 10th house position; this was termed the culminating pivot. The Porphyry house system was (probably) the first quadrant house system that had the popular Mc as we know it today. Modern astrology equates the 10th house and the Mc as the same thing, this was never viewed that way by the ancients, they have different meanings.

Now we have explained the 10th house and its similarities, the Mc and similarities and the ascendant and its similarities with respect to the basic ways they differed in different systems. All that remains now is to know that with the exception of the whole sign and the equal house systems, all the quadrant systems divide up the earth into various size portions, this gives differing 2nd, 3rd, 11th and 12th (and their respective opposite cusps) house cusp positions. The quadrant house systems do not work when one is born over (approx) 60 degrees north or south of the equator. I one is born at the north pole the ascendant would be at the exact same degree as the 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 11th, and 12th making the nativity look like it has only two giant houses with 5 signs intercepted in each half. This looks as bad as it sounds, and in my opinion invalidates all quadrant house systems.

I started out much the same as most people, where the only table of houses available B.C. (before computers) was the Placidus table of houses. I therefore used the Placidus house system, though I never really liked the idea that moving systems meant planets jumping houses. Another thing that I could not abide was ‘intercepted’ signs. In a medical or decumbiture chart each sign represents a part of the body so the idea of Aries being intercepted meant that persons head was not connected to their body, the same could be said for an intercepted Pisces, the feet were disconnected from the body. How about an Aries ascendant and the 12th house cusp also landing in Aries; the head was connected directly to the feet with nothing in between… Yes, this is how ridiculous the quadrant house systems make themselves look; they need no help from me. There are other reasons too, but it would take too long to go into here.

After spending around 10 years drawing my charts with coloured pencils and the help of a calculator (this was a requirement for my early astrology examinations), I started to mess about with the other house systems. I also spent a couple of years messing about with Ptolemy’s Equal house system and Jean Baptiste Morin’s unique house system I was still left with only hit and miss predictions as well as hit and miss psychological evaluations. There just had to be something I was missing or something wrong with the quadrant systems. My next plan was to invent two house systems of my own but unfortunately, I still lacked the accuracy I was after. A lot of digging and a great deal of reading all the astrology classics later, I realised that the best astrologers of their time all used the Whole sign house system with remarkable success. About 5 years ago I did the same and everything just fell into place, with amazing accuracy.

There is one thing I need to clear up so that anyone trying to learn the systems can have a clear understanding of what the Whole Sign house system is. Where the equal house system uses the degree of the ascendant for each house cusp, the whole sign system uses signs as the boundaries. For an equal house example, if one calculates a chart to have a 10 degree Aries ascendant, the second house cusp is 10 degrees Taurus, the third house cusp is 10 degrees Gemini and so on…

If one calculates a chart using the whole sign system with an ascendant at 10 degrees Aries, any planets in Aries are in the first house, any planets in Taurus are in the second house, any planets in Gemini are in the third house and so on. A common mistake made for those new to whole sign houses is to think that the ascendant becomes the start of the sign on the ascendant as the actual ascendant itself, it is not, the ascending degree is just shown as being 10 degrees into the first house. Another mistake is to think this system is easy or simplistic, in one respect it is, but make know mistake, if you learn all there is to know about the whole sign house system, it is incredibly deep.


Good wishes all


Bob
 

utopia

Active member
Bob said:
Hi Pluto9th & all,


The same technique can be applied to the signs; Cardinal = strong, Fixed = mediocre, Mutable = weak, though it does have the power to influence the sign it is placed in. Suffice to say, if it be in a cardinal sign and in an angular house it will have a tremendous influence in the nativity, for good or ill. A new Moon birth will have the Lot of Fortune around the ascendant and a full Moon birth will put it around the descendant. (a good rectification tool).

Bob

Hi Bob,

I would be very happy if you can make me understand this one;I have concerns on this one; becouse I think POF is something due to luck and in a chart Jupiter indicates luck so in my opion a pisces or a sag. POF must be strong.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...
 
B

Bob

Re: Pars Fortuna in different places in Placidus and equal charts

Hi Utopia,

The Lot of Fortune describes ‘everything’ that will happen to ones physical body.

It could mean winning the lottery but it could also mean getting run over by a bus, now I would not call that very lucky, unless you are seriously into masochism. Luck is the domain of Venus and the 5th house, and to a certain extent the 11th house. Jupiter has nothing to do with luck unless it is so positioned as to be lucky, but this goes the same for every planet. Jupiter in Pisces or Sagittarius makes it act in accordance with the elemental nature of the sign, but it does not make it lucky. If Jupiter is the ruler of the Lot of Fortune sign and is placed in the 12th house conjunct Saturn and out of sect it would be very, very, unlucky, depending again on how much one likes misery.


Hope this helps


Bob
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Bob,
I just wanted to express my appreciation for your fascinating and informative post. This really adds to my knowledge.
It seems that many people tend to underestimate the classical mind.

Pluto9th
 
B

Bob

You are most welcome Pluto9th, I was exactly the same until I kept hitting a brick wall. When one applies the ancient rules astrology really does work well.

Thankyou for your kind words

Bob
 

utopia

Active member
Dear Bob,

I really appreciate the information you have given.:)
I also started drawing charts by hand with the help of a calculator by the way...
And I can't help wondering if you have a Mars Mercury aspect on your natal:eek:
 
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