Current Sign Ruler Influence On Transiting Moon Did Ancients use Tropical or Sidereal

david starling said:

Since they used Heliacal reckoning, the 4 Fixed Signs presided over the MIDDLE of each Season. 2000 years later, due to precession, they once again aligned with the middle of each Tropical season, as the images attached to the Constellations will continue to do in Tropical Astrology. In Heliacal reckoning, the Sun has passed through a constellation. In Tropical, it's just entering a constellation. That's where the 30 degree differential applied, due to Precession.

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david starling said:

You cited mysticism as the reason. The Greek version of Heliacal as 15 degrees is unreliable. Makes perfect sense for the Ancient Babylonians to have waited for a constellation to FULLY emerge from the Underworld at the start of each seasonal month. Another example, the Ram fully visible at the beginning of the first month of Spring, known as the "Month of Sacrifice". And, the Overflowing Basin (now known as Aquarius), fully visible at the beginning of the 2nd month of Winter, known as "the Month of Rain". 2000 years later, those same matchups were temporarily achieved by switching to Tropical Astrology, whereby the the Sun was entering the constellation just BELOW the Eastern horizon at dawn.

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david starling said:

Visible constellations becoming fully visible at the beginning of a seasonal month makes perfect sense. They had a solar-lunar calendar for both mundane and religious activities, and the Constellational imagery fits some seasonal months quite well. Lions on the banks of the Nile in the middle of Summer matches the image for the Constellation Leo, and Scorpions swarm the banks in mid-Fall. Notice the claws of the Scorpion had to be used for Libra, in order to have one constellation for each seasonal month.
My point is, Tropical Astrology CAN be justified as a viable Zodiac by looking at the historical record, including the imagery (which is less important than the Elements and Modalities [IMO]). The Tropical Signs are areas of the sky that correspond to Earth's inclination to the star it orbits. In that context, there's no need for the more distant star-clusters to occupy the Signs of the same historical names. You're right about "Tropical" referring specifically to the Soltisces, but it can be taken to include the Seasons themselves. Just as "Precession of the Equinox" applies to all four seasonally-measured points.

One thing I'm pleased about
since I consider the Tropical Signs to be numbered
beginning with Aries as the 1st Sign
and use basic numerology in that regard
is that the Persian Zoroastrians
used the beginning of Spring at the Vernal Equinox
as the beginning of the New Year.

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petosiris said:

I agree with you that the Hellenistic rising range is unreliable, but you were talking of signs making a helical rising which is even more unreliable, just my opinion though. Do you happen to have a scholarly evidence for this matter. I cited a few reasons. Chaldean mysticism was an argument from history that such a particular grouping exists from long ago.

The strongest argument is the imagery and conceptual part itself. Double-bodied images being of well, two parts is undeniable. The second strongest argument is the linguistic and historical one.

The Hellenists used the term bicorporeal/δίσομος which really makes zero sense when applied to a month=sign as done in tropical. I do not see how you can say that a month or season has two bodies.

Even the word they used for cardinal which is related to turn/change/τροπικός can't be applied to Aries and Libra, because they are not related to turning, but just indicate the equinox.

This is even acknowledged by Ptolemy who acknowledges !four groupings! because of his bizarre schemes - ''The first distinctions, then, are of the so‑called solstitial, equinoctial, solid, and bicorporeal signs.'' - Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, 1,11

The tropical zodiac played little, if no part in establishing the quadruplicities as you can see.

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david starling said:

There is an interesting connection between the order of the Tropical Elements
and the formation of the Earth as a habitat for lifeforms as we know them:
First, a fiery ball of molten lava (Cardinal-Fire) then a hardening crust (Fixed-Earth), then, a chaotic atmosphere (Mutable-Air), containing water vapor, which finally condensed, and rained down, covering the Earth with oceans (Cardinal-Water). Fits the Tropical sequence.

I actually was unaware that Ancient Siderealism had Elements associated with the Constellations.
I thought that was an addition of Modern Siderealists (like Fagan-Bradley).

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however with regard to signs vis a vis seasons
dr. farr who has studied astrology for more than fifty years
comments as follows at

dr. farr said:

Personally I do not credit much to signs vis a vis seasons
nor do I attempt to "explain" sign qualities
by connecting these qualities to the qualities of the seasons.
I believe this tendency to make these qualitative connections was
(and is)
due to the origination of astrology
(Western and Vedic and Chinese) in the northern hemisphere.

I myself follow the alchemical "circulation of the elements" concept relative to the order (sequence) of signs, which concept has no connection with the quality of the seasons: this "circulation" of elements regarding the equinoxes and solstices and the sequential order of equinoctial and solstitial signs, flows from a "higher" element to a "lower" element and back again, in a four part annual cycle, viz. Fire (Aries, first equinox of the cycle) to Water (Cancer, first solstice of the cycle), then to Air (Libra, second equinox of the cycle)and lastly to Earth (Capricorn, second solstice of the cycle): thus high element (Fire/Aries) to low element (Water/Cancer) back to high element (Air/Libra) and finally to low element (Earth/Capricorn)
This cycle also follows the symbolic sequence of the "generation" of the elements
-highest element Fire with its opposing element Water
-next highest element Air with it's opposing element Earth

The equinoctial and solstitial signs also connect with the apogee and perigee of the Earth in relation to the Sun:
: solstitial Capricorn is at the time of the Earth perigee to Sun
: the first equinoctial sign (the first time in a 12 month period when Earth is equidistant from the Sun) is Aries
: the second solstitial sign, Cancer, is at the time the Earth is apogee from the Sun
: the second equinoctial sign (the second time in a 12 month period when the Earth is equidistant from the Sun) is Libra
So, Aries is equidistant from the Sun, followed by Cancer-when the Earth is apogee to the Sun, followed by Libra, with Earth again equidistant from Sun, followed by Capricorn-when the Earth is perigee to the Sun. We find the sign sequence:"midpoint" (Aries) then "furthest" (Cancer) then "midpoint" again (Libra), then finally "closest" (Capricorn).

I shall add that very ancient astrology
calculated the time sequence
using the Capricorn solstice
as the beginning of the astrological year:
Capricorn (closest to Sun) then to equidistant (Aries equinox)
then to Cancer (furthest from Sun) lastly back to equidistant from Sun
(the Libra equinox)

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muchacho said:

JA, that's interesting. Dorotheus has about a dozen charts in his book. So after reading your post I've just tested it with his first chart. And it didn't work with tropical, however, it did work with sidereal (Raman again, not Lahiri)! I've got April 12, 268 BC as the exact date. The best guess Pingree could provide in the appendix was May 2, 29 AD (with Mars in the wrong sign!). So yeah, sidereal seems to be the original thing, not tropical.

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david starling said:

More like about 6000 years ago, with cuneiform records dating to about 3300 B.C. The Uruk culture was a city-building civilization, credited with writing, astronomy, mathematics, and the use of wheeled vehicles, the plow, and domestication of animals used for labor. Inanna "Queen of the Heavens" was their most cherished deity, and was identified with the Planet now known as Venus. They also mined and refined copper, silver, and gold. The Sumerian culture was derived from the Uruk c.3100 B.C., and Inanna became known as Ishtar.

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5,500 Year Old Sumerian Cuneiform Tablets Reveal Stunning Revelations

david starling said:

The Athenian Greeks used the Summer Solstice, beginning "Hektombaion", their New Year's Day, at the 1st new Moon following the beginning of Summer in the Northern hemisphere. Zoroastrian New Year began with the Spring Equinox.

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