I've been banned from astrology because of my Christianity

abisert

Member
I used to be a avid fan of astrology until my dad catched me on a astrology website, and banned me from that website. Two days later, he found out that I've been reading books on astrology, and told me I shouldn't be doing this.


To be honest, I do find it easy to stay away. But, sometimes I think he was unfair, and I get really bored, so I do a little more research. Even if it doesn't turn out as a sin or not by myself, I'm violating the Fifth Commandment to obey my parents, and it's just heavy weight. :sad:

I would really like your opinion on this situation.

EDIT: To give more background information, my dad is one of the people who think of it as magic and witchcraft. Is he right?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
The catechism of the Catholic church and some Orthodox and Protestant denominations explicitly ban astrology. But oftentimes they misunderstand it. The catechism probably says it best when it cautions against forms of divination likely to turn people away from faith in God. (First commandment.) However, we have several Christian members here who don't see such a conflict.

First off, astrology is not star-worship. Back in ancient Mesopotamia, people thought the planets were gods, and prayed to them. But nobody does that any more.

If you look up astrology in a biblical concordance (index to words used in the Bible,) you will see very few references to astrology of any kind! The main criticism is that people might believe in the predictions of astrologers, rather than in faith in God. The God who created planets can obviously change whatever events they predict.

Around 500 BC when a lot of the Old Testament was codified, there was hardly any birth chart astrology as we understand it: character analysis through horoscopes didn't really exist. Astrology was pretty much used to predict wars and events happening to king and country. So I don't think the Bible actually prohibits natal chart interpretation. It might prohibit predictive astrology.

There is almost no mention of astrology in the New Testament. Some people think the Three Magi were astrologers.

For the next two millennia, the Catholic church had a real on-again off-again relationship with astrology. During the Middle Ages it was a subject in the great Catholic universities of Europe. But early Protestant leaders condemned it.

For now, you have to decide what's best for you in the practice of your faith. Maybe your parents wouldn't mind engaging in a conversation with you about astrology: why they see it as forbidden. Then when you're an adult, you'll be free to make up your own mind.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Just one more thing, is that if you feel you must follow your parents' and church's teachings on astrology, see if they have any problem with your studying "backyard" astronomy. If you live in a place where you can see the stars at night, you can get to know the planets and zodiacal constellations (for which the signs were named) first hand, along with a lot of other cool stuff. Astronomy isn't astrology, but hopefully the two still share a common wonder in the night sky-- the work of the Creator.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Why is it banned by Christianity, exactly?

It's not star-worship so it's not worshiping idols. Also back when the decree of magic = bad, astrology was not considered magic or witchcraft -- though whether it was bad or good was still debated because of its predictive powers. Is that what they're worried about?
 

waybread

Well-known member
If you look at the 10 commandments, the first one given by God to Moses says, "You shall have no other gods before Me."

Back in biblical times, the Israelites' neighbours like the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians worshipped all kinds of gods. The Israelites also backslid and worshipped different gods, according to the prophets who scolded them!

Astrology really begins in ancient Mesopotamia, notably with the Sumerians and Babylonians-- some of whom were called Magi, Chaldeans, and soothsayers or prognosticators of different sorts.

The Sumerians thought the planets were gods, and prayed to them as such. The (later) Babylonians sometimes described the planets as gods, and sometimes as omens or signs from their gods.

I think this is the context in which astrology was first seen as a violation of the first commandment. Then ancient people often made idols of their planetary gods, as well, so worshipping them was a form of idol worship; a violation of the second commandment.

A third problem is that astrology in ancient times, before the Greeks got hold of it, was pretty much restricted to large-scale predictions for the monarch and country. The positions of the planets with different star-clusters might mean drought or an invading army.

Note that most of these pantheistic gods were not supreme creator gods. Nergal (Mars) ruled warfare, Ishtar (Venus) ruled love, and so on.

The God of the Israelites, in contrast, as Creator of the heavens, has the power to overthrow astrologers' predictions. Isaiah, in fact, mocks them, asking whether their forecasts will save them from the coming war. The Israelites are constantly warned not to follow false prophets or other gods.

This seems to be the theme picked up by anti-astrology religions today; that it is a violation of the First Commandment.

However, our type of natal chart interpretation, based on Greek methods, didn't exist before about 200 BCE. It's not clear what the prophets would have said about it. The New Testament says hardly anything about astrology, which was widespread and popular at the time.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
It is my (meager) understanding that "astrology" as in day- and hour-rulers were used by people in ancient Israel, though. So that would mean that the planets as having "power" could not be entirely thrown out, and that it wasn't that they were "gods". It seems more that astrology having predictive power is folly when God is running the show and has granted free will.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
To be honest, I do find it easy to stay away. But, sometimes I think he was unfair, and I get really bored, so I do a little more research. Even if it doesn't turn out as a sin or not by myself, I'm violating the Fifth Commandment to obey my parents, and it's just heavy weight. :sad:

Go get a Bible and read the ten commandments. Where exactly is the word "obey"?

The fifth commandment doesn't say to obey your parents. It says to honor them. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord gives you." (Revised Standard Version)

Honor and obey are not the same thing.

Furthermore, the "honor your parents" has all the weight of the culture it came from behind it. What did it mean to the people of Moses' time and tribe to honor their parents? We don't know, but my sense is that it's much more similar to, say, Confucian ideas of family harmony, than to doing whatever your parents tell you without question, even if your own conscience says otherwise.

And to get honor, people have to behave honorably. Demanding absolute obedience and saying it's what God wants... isn't honorable behavior. That's instilling fear. Also, arguably, breaking the third commandment. Taking the name of the lord in vain doesn't really mean saying, "omigod" or something like that, it means using God's name to further your own desires or your own agenda or your own convenience.

Finally, the Hebrews who received the ten commandments were a collectivist society, not an individualistic one, like we are. Ask someone from a collectivist society about their opinion on something, and they won't say, "I think...." they'll say, "We think...." Ask them to tell you about themself, and they'll tell you about their relatives, while we in an individualistic society would talk about ourselves as individuals.

Since they had a collectivist mindset, they would have heard and interpreted the commandments in a collectivist way. In that light, "Honor your father and your mother" isn't a specific directive to honor your individual parents, it's a collective commandment, telling the whole tribe to honor its elders. "That your days may be long...." spells out the results. A tribe that does not honor its elders will not survive as a tribe. A tribe that does honor its elders will keep its sense of identity and last through the ages.

Perhaps tellingly, Judaism is the only religion that existed back then and still exists today. They must've taken that one to heart.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
The New Testament says hardly anything about astrology, which was widespread and popular at the time.

And was practiced by the magi who visited the baby Jesus (as you pointed out in an earlier post). That's how they found him.

If they were not astrologers, they wouldn't have been stargazing, and wouldn't have taken the appearance of a new star as an omen. Back then, astrologers and astronomers were the same thing.

Funny thing, the Bible says nothing against that.

If anything, that those astrologer/magi were in such favor that they got to see the Son of God before just about anyone else, and got warnings from angels, too, suggests that God approved of their practice.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
incidentally

"... historians argue the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion
and that Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt.
Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani)
includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife.
These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing..... :smile:
The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh...."
Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE
The Schofield Reference Bible estimates Hebrew Exodus from Egypt
and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai
occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later.
Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists
have concluded
that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document
rather than vice-versa
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Comparison of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew texts :smile:

A comparison of the Book of the Dead text
with the version of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:2-17 is striking.
Both consist of a series of negative statements.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Comparing another translation of Book Of The Dead with the King James Version of Exodus :smile:

topbul1d.gif
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Book of the Dead:
I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully.
I have not belittled God.
I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep.
I have not murdered or given such an order.
I have not used false balances or scales.
I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods.
I have not stolen.
I have not uttered lies or curses."


[/FONT]
topbul1d.gif
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Exodus 20:7-16:
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain....
Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery...
Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor...

[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]One major difference between the two documents
is that statues of the Gods and Goddesses formed a major part of the ancient Egyptian religion.
The religion of the ancient Hebrews forbade any image or statue of Yahweh.
Another difference was the Decalogue's emphasis on the Sabbath
one day of rest each week.
It is not found in the Book of the Dead or in ancient Egyptian culture
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm
[/FONT]
 

waybread

Well-known member

Good "proof texts" tsmall. They show a general abhorrence of prognosticators outside of the approved prophets, but astrologers are actually mentioned only a few times. In the original Hebrew of the OT they were called "Chaldeans" or "star-gazers."

Osamenor, you make a good point. There are other passages in the Bible that order children to be obedient to their parents, like Ephesians 6:1 https://www.openbible.info/topics/children_obeying_their_parents

We also have to consider the context of the patriarchal society of ancient times, as well as specific post-biblical teachings of particular denominations today.

My feeling is, that if the parents' opposition cannot be solved through an open discussion, abisert might simply study similar and astrologically helpful subjects like amateur astronomy (or psychology, for that matter,) and wait until s/he is old enough to be an autonomous adult.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I think that if abisert is from a devout family, which is how I read the OP,we need to be extra sensitive to his/her religious and family situation.

I hope abisert will come back, but I have seen another Christian on this forum, with whom I was in a lot of PM contact, leave when she ultimately decided her lot was with the teachings of her church, not with astrology. The fact that a couple of other forum members were very critical of her views didn't help matters.

Perhaps another issue to raise, though, indicated by graay ghost, is that some astrologers take a more "free will" approach to astrology, whereas others are more fatalistic and deterministic. A fatalistic view of astrology is more consistent with the thinking of the ancient pagan Greeks who founded our horoscopic astrology. Throughout the history of European astrology, back when most people who could even read were members of the clergy; they were mostly OK with "wiggle room" for moral choice within the broader confines of the horoscope.

This window of acceptance for astrology within the church began to close during the late Middle Ages, and was pretty much gone by the 1700s. William Lilly's book, Christian Astrology (1647,) could only occur in an England of greater tolerance for diverse secular and religious beliefs. After his day, astrology was eclipsed until its modern revival around 1900.
 

Stephen

Well-known member
Abraham in the old testament started the original religion and was an astrologer. God only told him that he didn't need astrology because he had raised himself above the stars. The only people who have reached this level are Jewish. My opinion is that it can help you and I find direction in life.

Stephen
 

waybread

Well-known member
Stephen, you won't find this belief in the Bible itself. You will find it in ancient Jewish lore, and in Josephus, History of the Jews.
 
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