Difficult child - I don't know enough astology

Our child - adult by age - not by demeanor, is driving us up the wall. I am trying to interpret his chart, but I seem to know so little traditional astrology, I am afraid of interpreting anything. By reading most of the posts in traditional astrology, I learned that you either know it or you better drop it, there's no half measures when it comes to it. I do not seem capable of training myself (although I had some attempts), so I will entirely rely on your good grace. And no, I don't believe in any mumbo-jumbo modern astrology.

Now back to my son. He has been brought up in the most traditional environment, with strong values: education, work, family, tradition. He's not into drugs or drinking and is not what you would match with the definition of a bad person, and yet, does not seem to stick to anything (school, work). Is Saturn showing any signs of change?

Cred ca vad problema.

Marte e seful Casa I (Vietii si Personalitatii), si e in Casa a XI-a in Varsator.

Soarele in Scorpion, de fapt, Planetele in Casa a VIII-a sunt problemele.

Am mai mult sa zic in cateva zile.

BobZemco said:

Cred ca vad problema.

Marte e seful Casa I (Vietii si Personalitatii), si e in Casa a XI-a in Varsator.

Soarele in Scorpion, de fapt, Planetele in Casa a VIII-a sunt problemele.

Am mai mult sa zic in cateva zile.

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Multumesc, Bob. Cred foarte tare in stiinta ta.
I thought there was something about Marte and that array of planets in the 8th, but how to tie that together, is well above my knowledge.

BobZemco said:

Cred ca vad problema.

Marte e seful Casa I (Vietii si Personalitatii), si e in Casa a XI-a in Varsator.

Soarele in Scorpion, de fapt, Planetele in Casa a VIII-a sunt problemele.

Am mai mult sa zic in cateva zile.

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So Mars - ruler of both Aries (ascendant) and Scorpio - is 11 in Aquarius, thus peregrine. However, being in the 11th, isn't it in accidental dignity, therefore capable of acting to some extent? Not much probably since the natal Sun attacks it? It's like this kid is his own enemy. The only semblance of help Mars gets is from Saturn. But Saturn is at 7 in Sagittarius, so peregrine. Nu stiu nimic, trebuie sa studiez multi ani.

rox said:

So Mars - ruler of both Aries (ascendant) and Scorpio - is 11 in Aquarius, thus peregrine.

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Mars is also in pitted degree. Something like either falling into or being pushed into a ditch or a well and needing a hand getting out of it. Having the ASC ruler stuck in a ditch...who's driving the bus? Or, to use the ever popular Nautical Metaphor, the helmsman has run aground.

rox said:

However, being in the 11th, isn't it in accidental dignity, therefore capable of acting to some extent?

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Mars is stuck, and Mars is stuck in Fortune's 1st.

rox said:

Not much probably since the natal Sun attacks it?

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This seems like an apt metaphor. You wouldn't normally think of the Sun attacking Mars, but in this chart the Sun is also peregrine. Sun is in feminine sign and quadrant, masculine degree and bound by Mars. The applying square from Sun to Mars is the only applying aspect Mars has. Mars is in the sign of the Sun's detriment, and while Mars receives Sun, Sun does not receive Mars. As the Sun is significator for the father in day charts, do your husband and son argue often?

Looking at this from another angle, Sun is the almuten of the ASC for having the most dignity in that degree. Sun is the exalation ruler. And Sun is in the 8th sign so unable to see the ASC. That's kind of rough, don't you think?

rox said:

It's like this kid is his own enemy.

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Maybe, but it's also like this kids parents are in his house, so he receives them and lets them do what they want. Venus (the mother in day charts) is retrograde in her detriment. Venus applies to Mars, by retrogradation, which Bob has defined as a collision. Meaning Mars is being forced or compelled to do something he doesn't want to. That aspect actually does perfect. I don't know if that means the matter will have resolution at some point.

rox said:

The only semblance of help Mars gets is from Saturn. But Saturn is at 7 in Sagittarius, so peregrine. Nu stiu nimic, trebuie sa studiez multi ani.

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Saturn is in azimene degree, but otherwise fairly well situated. In masculine sign and degree, and a bright degree. However, Saturn is cadent and in a femine quadrant, and his ruler Jupiter is retrograde in the 12th. Saturn rules the MC and is in aversion to it. Mars is exaltation ruler of the MC and is in aversion to it.

Basically, rox, I think your son is having trouble figuring out what he wants to do with his life, and is struggling against expectations.

I'd look at trying to figure out where his interests lie outside of expectations, and then seeing if there was a way to help him get there.

As to this

rox said:

Is Saturn showing any signs of change?

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Saturn is the participating triplicity ruler of the ASC, as well as being the bound ruler of the ASC. It may take a while, and certainly profections and solar returns will show when Saturn, though cadent, is able to act. My guess is that later years will be better than the earlier ones.

I have a cousin who is 33. He has never held a serious job, never finished his education (neither have I) and never lived outside his parents' home.

He is an only child born at 28 weeks gestation to parents who were told they would never have children. I kind of get the feeling he never expected to "be here" and so didn't arrive with a life plan.
__________________

tsmall said:

Mars is also in pitted degree. Something like either falling into or being pushed into a ditch or a well and needing a hand getting out of it. Having the ASC ruler stuck in a ditch...who's driving the bus? Or, to use the ever popular Nautical Metaphor, the helmsman has run aground.

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I know very little, which is worse than not knowing diddly and may consult the wrong resources, but, according to an older post of Dr.Farr's, who quotes Ibn Exra here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29126
the pitted degrees in Aquarius are 0 - 11 - 21 - 28. Since my son's Mars is at 10 degrees, it would have escaped the pitted 11, no? He also mentions that, no matter how far in the degree the planet may be (at 10.59, for example), it would still not be pitted unless it was strictly in the 11th degree.

tsmall said:

This seems like an apt metaphor. You wouldn't normally think of the Sun attacking Mars, but in this chart the Sun is also peregrine. Sun is in feminine sign and quadrant, masculine degree and bound by Mars. The applying square from Sun to Mars is the only applying aspect Mars has. Mars is in the sign of the Sun's detriment, and while Mars receives Sun, Sun does not receive Mars. As the Sun is significator for the father in day charts, do your husband and son argue often?

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They do not fight. My husband is actually rather patient and quite understanding of our son. I am more of a tough-love-swim-or-drown parent.

tsmall said:

Saturn is in azimene degree, but otherwise fairly well situated. In masculine sign and degree, and a bright degree. However, Saturn is cadent and in a femine quadrant, and his ruler Jupiter is retrograde in the 12th. Saturn rules the MC and is in aversion to it. Mars is exaltation ruler of the MC and is in aversion to it.

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They say that azimene degrees will burden the native with some kind of physical debility, yet that is clearly not the case here. Conversely, because his Saturn (old age, wisdom) is the planet in azimene, I believe it might be the cause for which he is very childish for his age (biologically - 26, mentally - around 18, if not younger in some cases). Could that be it?

rox said:

I know very little, which is worse than not knowing diddly and may consult the wrong resources, but, according to an older post of Dr.Farr's, who quotes Ibn Exra here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29126
the pitted degrees in Aquarius are 0 - 11 - 21 - 28.

Since my son's Mars is at 10 degrees, it would have escaped the pitted 11, no? He also mentions that, no matter how far in the degree the planet may be (at 10.59, for example), it would still not be pitted unless it was strictly in the 11th degree.

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btw dr. farr refers during the discussion to Serafin5's posting of a link to a useful and comprehensive listing of TRADITIONAL DEGREE INFLUENCES compiled by Deborah Houlding at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html#note

dr. farr and BobZemco highlight the important factor that modern notation of these Degree Influences is at variance with traditional notation

BobZemco said:

That would depend on the system of reckoning:

0 to 29 or 1 to 30.

0 to 29 is a modern thing used mostly to make it easier for software programs to calculate charts

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dr. farr said:

Right, it is through the entire degree.

One thing, though, is the translation of much of the older degree numbers to the numeration we use in our charts today.

We use 0 through 29:59;

the old numeration was 1 through 30.

That means, when translating a degree in an oldtime list, to our current sign numeration, we must subtract from the oldtime list;

ie, exatation of Moon at 3 Taurus in the oldtime lists translates to the 2nd degree of Taurus being the exaltatio degree of the Moon in our current sign numeration.

We can easily get misled about a degree and its meanings/connections if we do not take this into account, when referencing the oldtime degree lists.

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And in fact Deborah Houlding clearly states at the top of the list she has compiled that

QUOTE

Note: Deg. 1 equates to 0°00' - 0°59 ; deg. 2 equates to 1°00' - 1°59, and so on, ending with deg. 30 equating to 29°00 - 29°59

Sun at 4° in Scorpio, 7 H - angular, the house of open enemies and partnerships. And if I read again Valens' description of men with a Scorpio Sun, I get depressed, as I used to take his words literally.
Mars governs it by term, sign and triplicity. By term, Valens has it as "of few children and many brothers". Again, not to take him to literally, the kid has only one sister.
Mars is not in good shape: peregrine and in a pitted degree. Mars is also the AC ruler. Mars has probably given my son a rather impulsive nature, gradually tempered with age (as a kid, he found it difficult to negotiate toys, games etc. and would always seek somewhat passive play-partners).
Sun square to Mars can mean that he must fight for what he wants, never has things handed out to him (true: his mere arrival in this world was a struggle for him, although he did everything right). Sun square a weak Mars can also be a good thing, since Mars is a malefic?

I know, modestly talking to myself. But learning.

rox, I'd start by trying to determine if Mars is capable of doing what he has been tasked to do as ASC ruler. Mars is a masculine, nocturnal planet. He is above the horizon in a day chart, so -1. He is in masculine sign, +1. I made a mistake (probably because it was late and I was looking too quickly, so I apologize) in calling the 11th degree of Aquarius pitted. It's dark, not deep. I got the D's mixed up. And I don't know enough about how that would affect the interpretation to offer anything there.

Mars is in masculine quadrant, +1, but feminine degree -1. So far it's a wash for Mars, but I'm thinking (someone may please feel free to add or correct me here) that Mars being in the 11th house of Good Spirit is another +1. Mars coming behind the Sun in a day chart? -1. So over all a wash, which means not great and not bad.

I originally glanced at the square to Sun and saw that Mars receives Sun from the detriment of the Sun, which is why I asked about arguing. I should have paid more attention to the applying square with Venus. Because Venus is retrograde. And that square perfects before the Sun can get to Mars. If you recall from reading BobZemco's recent posts, this is a collision. Venus represents who in a day chart?

And, Venus is retrograde, in detriment, received by Mars and in her own triplicity, which kind of suggests she is able to ignore the limitations of her bound ruler and do what she wants. In this case...well it is a square with Mars. So we have a theme of Mars colliding (being forced or compelled to do something he doesn't want to do) with Venus.

Notice too that the 7th house, where Venus actually is, is intercepted. There was a thread about intercepted houses...but from what I remember it means frustration or having a hard time with what that house represents. Again, if I am misremembering I more than welcome a correction.

My thought is...what does he want to do? I'd look at delineating career in this chart.

tsmall said:

My thought is...what does he want to do? I'd look at delineating career in this chart.

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He does not seem to want much. So far, a professional student. And that's the bother.
I'll try to follow your advice and delineate his career, with the lame tools I so far possess.

MC is in Capricorn. According to Bob, this indicates his potential status in life. The parameters are good, as Capricorn shows the ability to lead and all those wonderful things that come with it. Now let's see if I can tell what is really going on.

The ruler of the 10th Saturn, in 8th. I don't like this house, as it signifies other people's money, implicitly, inability to earn. Saturn is at 8° in Sagittarius. Lame degree. Reduced power, impeded. His only aspects are a square with a retrograde Jupiter in 12th (Pisces) and a trine with a debilitated Mars in a pitted degree in Aquarius - 11th. I guess we could rule the army career out.

I'll probably have to look at his second house as well, but my brain is scrambled eggs.

BobZemco said:

Cred ca vad problema.

Marte e seful Casa I (Vietii si Personalitatii), si e in Casa a XI-a in Varsator.

Soarele in Scorpion, de fapt, Planetele in Casa a VIII-a sunt problemele.

Am mai mult sa zic in cateva zile.

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Hello Bob,

Is this "cateva zile" already? I've been waiting for your view for a long time!

rox said:

Hello Bob,
Is this "cateva zile" already?

I've been waiting for your view for a long time!

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BobZemco has not posted on our forum for three and a half years