Traditional vs modern. state your case

wilsontc

Staff member
personal and generational, to Kaousei

Kaousei,

You said:
Are they less valid? No. Are they less personal? Yes. Uranus spends about seven years in each Sign, will that affect the world? Definitely. Will it affect individuals? I don't see it happening, unless that person's chart is colored with a specific member of the Outers (or perhaps more than one) regarding house position and aspects to by the Inners.

So we do agree that the outer planets can affect individuals. Perhaps it is a matter of how much it affects individuals. As we agree, there are situations in which a person will feel the outer planets more strongly and personally, so making blanket statements such as "the outer planets are less personal" is very clearly not true in all situations. As you say, if a "person's chart is colored with a specific member of the Outers (or perhaps more than one) regarding house position and aspects to by the Inners" then they could be very personal indeed. For example, if these outer planets "gang up" on the Ascendant (self), then the person may be able to personally use all the outers' energies.

Which brings us to the idea of "personal" and "generational". If something affects a person "personally" then they are immediately aware of it and see it in their life. If something affects a person "generationally" then they STILL experience it, even if they are less aware of it. And, yes, it DOES affect the person themselves...things that affect the "world" affect us, since we are in the world. It comes down to a matter of how "tuned in" a person is to the effects of the outer planets. If something affects a "group" (or a generation) it also affects the people IN the group. If a group of people all identify with certain "generational" things, then they also both individually identify with those things as well.

Which raises the question, what is the difference between "Inner" (so-called "personal" planets) and "Outer" (so-called generational planets). As you mentioned, it is all about time. The "personal" effects of transiting personal planets are one-off and quickly gone. They are the "day to day" challenges that we can easily handle: for example, if we have a Mars transit, we might feel angry for a few days and then the anger goes away. The "impersonal" effects of transiting outer planets are longer-lasting...and much more strongly felt.

As you say, when you have a Uranus transit it lasts a LONG time. And during that time the full power of the sign and the house are in effect. The sign is important since it colors the effect of the outer planet. So, for example, when transiting Uranus hits (conjuncts) your Descendant (others), there is a STRONG, LONG lasting effect on how you handle others. The way this energy comes out will be affected by the sign of Uranus, which will interact with the sign on the cusp of the Descendant. When Uranus is in one sign and the Descendant is in another, the challenges of the Uranus energy will be much more strongly felt, since the Uranus sign will "fight" with the Descendant sign. Once Uranus moves into the sign of the Descendant, the "fight" is over and things seem more "normal" to us, even though we now have this new Uranian energy affecting how we inter-relate with others.

So we have to always consider sign, planet and house in astrology, no matter which planet it is. Arbitrarily throwing out one of these important parts of astrology because it is "generational" only hurts our ability to fully understand the energy and lessons of the chart and the transits to the chart.

Generationally personal, ;)

Tim
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Re: personal and generational, to Kaousei

As we agree, there are situations in which a person will feel the outer planets more strongly and personally, so making blanket statements such as "the outer planets are less personal" is very clearly not true in all situations.

Yes we do. However, you yourself just said the Outers are less personal. Again, we agree, but yet you still feel the need to call me out on it. The Outer planets are less personal unless specific criteria are met. On the other hand, the Inners are always personal, regardless. So yes, the Outers are less personal than the Inners as the Outers have to perform something special for someone to 'tune in' to them, whereas the Inners are always personal, regardless.

As you say, if a "person's chart is colored with a specific member of the Outers (or perhaps more than one) regarding house position and aspects to by the Inners" then they could be very personal indeed.

Yes, they could be, but are not always. Again we agree, but you're angry about it.

If something affects a person "generationally" then they STILL experience it, even if they are less aware of it.

Perhaps, but I dare say we usually have a choice about just how much we let a generational happening affect us.

And, yes, it DOES affect the person themselves...things that affect the "world" affect us, since we are in the world.

Yes we may feel it, but what makes it 'personal' is that it affects us and not everybody else around the world. Hint person being one individual. I'm not denying the Outers their powers, I'm just saying that what's the same for you is going to be the same for EVERYBODY else, which is not personal. For instance, that which is personal property is mine. My house, my car, my stuff. Now, I may share this stuff with select individuals, but otherwise it's mine. Public ('generational') property is something I have no control over and that I must share with everyone else. Now, to apply this analogy with astrology, personal planetary placements (nice alliteration, right?) are going to affect me and those who are close to me, while the Outers and their generational placements are going to affect myself and everyone else. Not personal.

As you say, when you have a Uranus transit it lasts a LONG time.

I don't believe I've said anything about someone experiencing a Uranus transit...

So, for example, when transiting Uranus hits (conjuncts) your Descendant (others), there is a STRONG, LONG lasting effect on how you handle others.

What you are referring to here are transits which I believe are classified as a type of Predictive astrology, I believe we've been speaking of Natal astrology and the Outers' affects therein. To which house and aspect placements are what is important as they are personal, whereas the Sign placement is not so.

So we have to always consider sign, planet and house in astrology, no matter which planet it is.

Perhaps in Mundane and Predictive, but not in Nativities.
 

gaer

Well-known member
Re: personal and generational, to Kaousei

Kai,

I would sum up my own view this way, using my own chart, and I'll use Uranus, since somehow it seems to have appeared in this topic UNEXPECTEDLY. ;)

I was born when Uranus was just entering Cancer. But because of the annual Rx motion for the outers, it backed up into Gemini again, much as Mars is about to do soon now.

Uranus finally entered Cancer and stayed there in July of 1949.

So, I suppose I was a "Uranus in Cancer" pioneer. :)

But what does Uranus in Cancer mean to me and for all the people who were born with it in this sign for the next seven years? This MAY be valid: it marks a period of time in which TV suddenly changed everything. Is it personal? No, because countless people my age were affected in much the same way.

The importance of the sign of Uranus may become "personal" due to aspect. I have Mercury about 4 Scorpio, so trine. The fact that the trine is formed between two water signs (which is not always the case, since Uranus could have been at 29 Gemini) is much more personal, because Mercury is involved.
So yes, the Outers are less personal than the Inners as the Outers have to perform something special for someone to 'tune in' to them, whereas the Inners are always personal, regardless.
That's pretty much how I look at it. To make the outers "personal", I want to see them angular, in meaningful aspects to other faster moving bodies, etc. The most personal would be a relationship to points, since they move so quickly. The second most personal would be to the Moon, fastest moving. Mercury and Venus CAN be more personal than the Sun in terms of movement, since at their fastest (from our perspective) they move faster than the Sun, and that makes them very tricky, since they also can be suprisingly motionless for at least a few days.

The best example I can think of involving an aspect that is truly multi-generational is that of Neptune to Pluto. The fact that we find the sextile so often in charts from the latter half of the 20th century makes that sextile, by itself, something I would pay little attention to unless there is some kind of personal connection to one of those two planets, although in a surprising number of instances there is. :)
Now, to apply this analogy with astrology, personal planetary placements (nice alliteration, right?) are going to affect me and those who are close to me, while the Outers and their generational placements are going to affect myself and everyone else. Not personal.
That's also my point of view. :) However, it's hard to find charts where the outers do not form significant aspects to the "inners".
 
Re: personal and generational, to Kaousei

would anyone like to add what they think are the main differences between modern and traditional astrology are..................
 

wilsontc

Staff member
this discussion is about the difference, to Green

Green,

This discussion is an interesting case of a modern interpretation vs. a traditional interpretation. The modern interpretation attempts to use every planet in the chart from the point of view in how it personally interacts with the person's psychological makeup. So the modern astrological view is to look at what does the sign, planet, and house do for every planet as an indication of the psychological reality of that person.

The traditional view of planetary chart interpretation stops at Saturn, so planets that go beyond Saturn (such as Uranus) are looked on as something that may be of interest to the public as a whole, but that don't matter that much in individual charts. So the traditional interpretation accepts that the planets exist, but insists that they don't have that much of a personal affect on the person. In order to understand the "person"'s chart (in the traditional view) it is only important to focus only on the more "personal" planets that stop at Saturn. Beyond that point the planets aren't interpreted in the person's chart.

So, as a modernist, I insist that Uranus (and other "outer" planets - planets beyond Saturn) also have a personal effect. And, as a traditionalist, Kaiousei insists that the effects of the Uranus (and other "outer" planets) are mainly generational effects and have little or no personal effect, so are of no or very little importance in birth charts.

Explaining,

Tim
 
Re: this discussion is about the difference, to Green

tim,

thanks for explaining, wasnt sure if there was much othr difference.....your good at this job, helping us all out!

Thankfully
LG
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Re: this discussion is about the difference, to Green

And, as a traditionalist, Kaiousei insists that the effects of the Uranus (and other "outer" planets) are mainly generational effects and have little or no personal effect, so are of no or very little importance in birth charts.

No no no. Kaiousei (as someone who likes to mix Traditonal and Modern) insists that the Outer planets are not personal unless made personal by placement and aspect. My Pluto in Scorpio tells people absolutely nothing about me, except that I was born within that 13 year period Pluto was in Scorpio. Now, upon closer examination, you find Pluto Squaring Sol and Luna, this makes Pluto (the otherwise generational and Outer planet), personal to me as Pluto is not Squaring everyone's Sol and Luna.
 

Carole

Well-known member
Gaer:

I don't accept every idea that has been, in my opinion, sometimes blindly accepted simply because astrologer A or B declared it so. I'm going to test things (this is part of Saturn too, find the limitations), but I'm going to go wherever my ideas lead me (freedom), which you may associate with Uranus. So I see no problem whatsoever in seriously thinking about how Saturn relates to Aquarius.

I very much agree with your thoughts quoted above.

As a person who has Mercury conjunct Saturn and both trine Uranus, all I can say is that I don't consider myself either strictly traditional or strictly modern. I like to test things to see if they work and if they do, then I bring them in to my own astrological book. What does that make me? Mmmm...Definitely eclectic. But then, I don't like labels!:rolleyes:


Carole
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
coffee said:
I guess one of the main differences is rulers used. Traditional uses Saturn as co-ruler of Aquarius and Mars as co-ruler of Scorpio.

Which would give a different interpretation.
If you concentrate on a certain house ruler, and give Saturn the weight instead of say, Uranus - you will come up with a different and most likely wrong interpretation.

I guess this is where an astrologer's best intuition comes in. I sometimes will look at Saturn when dealing with an Aquarius issue, or Mars for Scorpio. Sometimes I don't. I let my gut feeling guide me on what's important in that chart and what's not.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
Pluto in Scorpio, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
My Pluto in Scorpio tells people absolutely nothing about me

A modernist would say that a person with Scorpio (transformation, also control, power, research) modifying Pluto (transformation, also control, power, research) would have a strong need to gain power and influence wherever they are and need to be in control of all situations. It also suggests a deep need to research things. And that seems to apply here! ;)

Plutonically yours,

Tim
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Re: Pluto in Scorpio, to Kaiousei

Me and everyone else born within 13 years of me.

However, is it really Pluto in Scorpio that does that? Or am I that way because he Squares my Lights? The keywords you supplied for Scorpio and Pluto were exactly the same, so it seems it's one of those toss-ups. When it's something like this it's hard to break it apart.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
sensitivity, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
However, is it really Pluto in Scorpio that does that? Or am I that way because he Squares my Lights?

This goes back to an important point I raised earlier: signs DO matter with the "outer" planets...but people don't have the same sensitivity to the effect of the signs. Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy. For the other people (with the "outer" planets in areas of the chart that aren't emphasized) they are much less aware of the sign energy of the "outer" planet. But it IS there all the same...the people simply aren't aware of it.

Another way people can become aware of the power of signs in the "outer" planets is when there is an out-of-sign conjunction, such as Virgo modifying Uranus conjunct Libra modifying Mars. In this case the Virgo energy of the Uranus "fights" with the Libra energy: the Virgo side wants to have a routine while the Libra side wants a relationship of some sorts. This means the person has to find a way to "make peace" between Virgo and Libra energies in their life.

So it comes down to a level of people's awareness of the sign's effect on their "outer" planets. Some are more aware, and some much less so. However, an astrologer can bring a person's attention to the sign of their "outer" planets and how it affects them, so they use them effectively. Obviously, in your case, you are very aware how to combine sign and planet to use it most effectively, as you have shown many times on the forum...but other people are not so aware and so need an astrologer to "show" them their sign energy so they can use it effectively in their life.

Signing off,

Tim
 

gaer

Well-known member
Carole said:
Gaer:



I very much agree with your thoughts quoted above.

As a person who has Mercury conjunct Saturn and both trine Uranus, all I can say is that I don't consider myself either strictly traditional or strictly modern. I like to test things to see if they work and if they do, then I bring them in to my own astrological book. What does that make me? Mmmm...Definitely eclectic. But then, I don't like labels!:rolleyes:


Carole
Carole, I don't like labels either. :) When people ask me if I am a Modern or a Traditonal person, I simply say: I'm Practical. ;)

In other words, I want things to work, and they have to work according to my own personal experience! :)

g
 

wilsontc

Staff member
Traditional rulers, to all

To all,

I do use traditional rulers in charts as well as modern rulers.

Traditionally modern,

Tim
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Re: Traditional rulers, to all

Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy.

Aquarius, Pisces, and Scorpio? Or the Sign the Outer is in?

This is where I've got to disagree personally. I don't feel Uranus in Capricorn, Neptune in Capricorn, or Pluto in Scorpio. I do feel Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto though. Uranus is on my MC, Neptune tightly Trines Venus, and Pluto Squares my Lights. Now, these things I feel and I could give a multitude of examples for how and why and where I feel them. Would there be a difference if say...Pluto was Squared from Taurus instead of Scorpio or Neptune was Trine was from Taurus instead of Capricorn? I don't think so, except that the 'where' of houses would change. They would jump from my Eighth and Tenth to my Second. (Heh...the idea of Neptune and Pluto jumping. ^.^)

Also, your posting about Pluto and Scorpio reflected what is another weakness of Modern astrology. Apparently Neptune exploded all over it and there are no lines or distinctions between planets and Signs. Basically; where does Scorpio end and Pluto begin?
 

gaer

Well-known member
Re: sensitivity, to Kaiousei

wilsontc said:
This goes back to an important point I raised earlier: signs DO matter with the "outer" planets...but people don't have the same sensitivity to the effect of the signs. Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy.
But Tim, the moment we consider the outer signs conjunct one of the angles, especially when the conjunction is really close, that becomes very personal, since only people with the same AC will have an outer in the same degree of the same sign in that same place.

To me personal has to do with how many people share the same "detail" in a chart.

"Personal" is a very relative term. Suppose we consider just Pluto.

Pluto in Leo, is about as "generational" as it can be.

(It was in Leo part of 1939, all of 1940 to all of 1955, most of 1956, about eight months 1957, and finally very briefly 1958).

That's most of a period lasting more than 15 years. What does anyone know about me so far if they know I have Pluto in Leo? Only that I was born during that period.

How about Pluto in Leo square Mars in Scorpio? Even so, that square can last a fairly long time when Mars is moving slowly, and the that square occured about every 26 months during the whole Pluto in Leo cycle. Still not too personal. But at least I know that only a few people born close to my birth have Mars in Scorpio.

Pluto in the 12th? A bit more personal, since I will share that with perhaps one person in 12.

More personal: 12th house cusp is Leo.

Finally, Pluto in Leo in the 12th, square Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd is something you might have to look through a lot of charts to find, and adding other planets in signs and other aspects finally makes everything unique.

We all know this. So I think our discussion is becoming totally circular.

The position of the Moon in any sign, by itself, is somewhat personal, since it is shared by one in 12 people. In a specific degree of a sign, shared by only one person in 360.

I don't even want to THINK about how many people are born while Pluto makes its way through one degree of one sign. Those who are saying that the "outers" are not felt personally in the same way as the "inners" are simply expressing this point—in my opinion. :)

Gaer
 
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starlink

Well-known member
Re: sensitivity, to Kaiousei

Hello friends! It is Sunday and that gives me time to look over other threads and I found this one, which I thoroughly like. I have seen that Kaiousei does not want to use sign rulers. I personally do think that signs greatly influence the basic energy of the Planet . A Pluto in Leo will take on Leonic traits, is more of a despot than say, a Pluto in Pisces where it's destructive qualities (face it) sort of swim into all directions and diminishes it's powers. Pluto in Virgo gets terribly nitty gritty, obsessively clean in many cases and critical, Pluto in Libra, very possessive in relationships or a formidable mediator and so on and so forth. I always look at the background because that background shows me how that planet is likely to use it's energies.
The rulers of the houses show us where we will use that energy elsewhere, apart from the house he is in, so lets say that Pluto is in Virgo in the 4th. We could, amongst other interpretations probably find a dominant parent who could me mentally abusive. When the ruler of that house is Mars placed in the 7th, in Leo, these same traits (all that we experienced in childhood)will be brought over (in stronger or weaker form) to partners or closed one's (mainly,) but also to others in gereral and will then be expressed in yet another way, mainly to attract attention (Leo) or by trying to be the leader , in a business relationship maybe or the boss (Mars).
By looking at this from that point of view (houserulers in other houses), we can then see why people have become the way they are and do things in such ways. How often dont we see abusive patterns, or patterns of self sacrifice repeat itself! Always keep in mind that a house represents a certain department of our lives. The 1st, the personal , the 4th, the family , the 6th, the work or health department. So the ruler of one house and the planets therein, can influence, through the house ruler, another department of our lives. Thats at least how I have always used it anyways. Rulers for me are extremely important. Look at my 6th house for instance. BADLY aspected. Sun in T-square with Pluto and Moon (yes Kai, I also have the lights connected to Pluto!!), but the ruler is Mars and Mars is very well and strongly placed in the 5th house in own sign and trines the MC and conjuncts Venus, ruler of my Sun. So, with that really not nicely aspected Sun AND Mercury square Saturn as well in that house, you would think I would be spending my life in hospitals. I have been twice in hospital in my entire life so far and only one of them was an acute intestinal operation. The other I almost asked for to be operated on. Why?? because the ruler determines (in my point of view) the outcome of what happens in that house, by its placement in another sign and house. When the ruler falls in the same house and sign, then yes, you get exactly what you see.
Then, about traditional and modern astrology I can only say the following:
If the antique Astrologers would have been able to see Uranus, Pluto and Neptune, they would have, just like the modern one's, used them accordingly. Maybe they would have assigned them to different signs, that we will never know of course, but they would have used them!! I do use them, but also only when they rule Sun, Moon, Ascendant and MC. and when personal planets like Mars, Mercury and Venus aspect them strongly. Personally I use them as main rulers when they rule Sun, Moon and Ascendant and use Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as co-rulers, not the other way around. I do look at both always and depending on how many aspects either receives, I make them more important in a chart.
Greetings to you all, Starlink
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Shining Ray said:
I have Pluto in Libra and was born at a time when marriage and social values went through a profound change. Also obsession over beauty and fashion and cosmetic surgery. Pluto is supposed to function poorly in Libra as Libra is an Air sign and can be too superficial for intense emotional Pluto. My depositor of Pluto is Venus and squares Pluto in the 2nd. Power battles in relationships have been a strong theme for me. I can be obsessed with my appearance and how I look, I always used to buy all sorts of beauty products to try and look beautiful and feel like I socially fitted in, my Venus is in Capricorn 5th. Low self worth feelings would drive me to fit in but in a superficial way. Having Pluto in 2nd is forcing me to change my values, my feelings about my self worth as a person through relationships (Libra). That was just part of a personal experience of how I have felt with Pluto in Libra in my chart when connected to personal planets.
This is the part that confuses me. I would have made that exact same interpretation, regardless of what sign Pluto was in. The 2nd house reflects our values, what we consider important, and self worth. You have Pluto here, which signfies deep introspection, analysis, and transformation of those values. Which values? Well, Venus rules the 2nd house traditionally, and you have Venus square Pluto. So the values related to beauty and feelings of self worth would be examined, as well as what makes us feel secure. In what manner? Venus in Capricorn lends a practical, analytical process to what it takes to evaluate this value. Change your clothes, change your hair, find ways to "fit in". Whatever it takes to make you fit in with society (which means for most people, "what makes me attractive to the opposite sex", 5th house). For me, that Pluto is in Libra had no bearing on that interpretation, yet we come out with the same result. :confused:

The only relevence I can find is that with Pluto in Libra, your generation in particular is more concerned with superficial values. Okay - but what, specifically, does that have to do with you? It only has value because natal Venus is square Pluto, and Pluto is in the 2nd, which is far more important than your generation as a whole is more concerned with superficialiaties. If Pluto was in another house and made no aspect to Venus at all, it may have made absolutely no difference, other than you're aware of the superficiality of your generation but choose not to focus on that element.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Shiny, as always, you do a marvellous job explaining something! I agree totally with what you wrote. Me, having Scorpio Asc. and Pluto in Leo square Moon and Sun and trine Venus, ruler of my Sun, what do you think I feel!!! And you are (in my case at least) totally right when you say:
On a positive note the person with the Moon/Pluto aspect could grow up to be a very good family therapist and help other people process their painful feelings.
My kids, nieces, future daughters in law, all come to me for advice and it is all about love relationships in turmoil!!
also this:

I can be obsessed with my appearance and how I look
This is in my case caused by Venus in the 5th trine Pluto and Venus ruler of my Sun who is in the 6th (perfection, beauty treatments). I even became a
beautician and did modelling, so you can imagine, it was all about "the exterior". I am better now as I am getting older and even dare going out without make-up at times which I never dared to do LOL!!!
Yes, for me, those planets do affect us personally BIG TIME when connected with Asc. and/or personal planets. Cheers, Starlink
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Shining Ray said:
I think your nitpicking Mdinaz :rolleyes: I don't think I have to answer you on my own personal value system that is private.
Ummm, I wasn't asking your values, that was a rhetorical question.


I am not understanding what you are getting at, please clarify. I think the interpretation is how I personally experience it, I don't know what it is you don't understand about the interpretation I will try to help you out with keywords. :D And it wasn't just a Pluto in Libra reading it was a Pluto in Libra 2nd house square to Venus in Capricorn 5th house.
Yes, I know, I agreed already that we made the exact same interpretation.
The question is: how much difference does the outer planet sign make in the interpretation, whether or not it makes an aspect to a personal planet. My thought is, we made the same interpretation on this aspect even though I did not consider the Pluto sign and others did. For me, it made little difference that Pluto was in Libra, what was important was the house positions, the hard aspect of Pluto to Venus, and the Venus sign.


The point is I do have a personal planet connected to Pluto which disposits it and squares it. So I do connect into Pluto in Libra 2nd. If I didn't have this placement, I obviously would not be talking about this aspect. As I wouldn't personally connect into the superficial values or be influenced by them as much.
My only point is that it would have been important to you whether your generation agreed with it or not. Hence, the fact that Pluto was in Libra, to me, has little bearing. Just my thoughts here. I think we essentially agree on this topic, just for different reasons. :)
 
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