Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

petosiris

Banned
Re: cause and effect, to Hyhoang

Science is USUALLY about observable cause and effect...and so far no one can say there's any "cause" to astrology that affects things on Earth to come out a particular way. However astrology does INDICATE what is going on on Earth.

I disagree. If there is indication (that can be measured), there is causation, even if there happens to be a hidden variable responsible for two things, the movement of the planets and terrestrial affairs. So astrology only needs to prove a statistical correlation to be recognized, and it is not necessary to have the mechanism for it (even though it would be useful).
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Because Martin Fluegelmeyer had a car wreck at the same time that Charlene Hughes had her wisdom tooth removed does not mean there is a correlation between the two events. Astrology will have to do better than that.

There is no demonstrable causative link between earth and sky.

You are trying to meet science on its own terms, "proving" astrology. That is a losing proposition from the gitgo.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Because Martin Fluegelmeyer had a car wreck at the same time that Charlene Hughes had her wisdom tooth removed does not mean there is a correlation between the two events. Astrology will have to do better than that.

There is no demonstrable causative link between earth and sky.

You are trying to meet science on its own terms, "proving" astrology. That is a losing proposition from the gitgo.

So you either believe that astrology is a subjective phenomenon like waybread, or you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

petosiris

Banned
The title pretty much explains itself. I am no skeptic, I'm just wondering if there is any way for us to look at astrology and explain it scientifically. Just why does astrology work, and how can it influence our lives, individually and collectively? Also are there any books on this particular topic that I can read on?

Aside from physicists or biologists discovering an hitherto unknown effluence coming from the planets to our biology, there is a much more easy, accessible and productive research that can be done with statistics.
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
The title pretty much explains itself. I am no skeptic, I'm just wondering if there is any way for us to look at astrology and explain it scientifically. Just why does astrology work, and how can it influence our lives, individually and collectively? Also are there any books on this particular topic that I can read on?

I definitely think you can approach astrology using the scientific method, and by formulating hypotheses about certain facets of astrological concepts and ideas. It's like with any large branch of knowledge (history, medicine, language, etc.). We don't know everything, so we have to keep digging and searching and experiencing or experimenting. At least that's how I think about it.

I guess I struggle a bit when I really think about the definition of science, rather than the connotations we generally have. First thought that popped into my mind was physics and then medicine was next, but these are just aspects of 'science' rather than 'science' itself, imo. I almost want to define the term 'science' as more of an approach, like 'science' is actually the attempt to explain the universe systematically. I'm not sure I'm explaining this all that well... lol Anyway, if I think of a better way to articulate my thoughts, I'll make another post.

I think astrologers study and approach the physical and natural world through the use of observation and experimentation. I figure astrology is meant to be a system, a set of interconnecting parts working together to offer an explanation of the observable and shared reality.

(Sometimes, I think words and language in general have so many connotations that it's necessary to give some definitions so there's less room for miscommunication.)

The definitions I'm using are from google's dictionary. lol

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Scientific Method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

Hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

System: a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.
 
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rahu

Banned
Your talking about Quantum Physics. It is a legitimate question but beyond the scope of this webcite.


I agree with this.you have to reject the standard model and consider astrology within the parameters of quantum theory, if you are looking for a deductive pattern.
rahu
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Here's a true story.

I'm an old cab driver. One night in Fort Worth I was having a good night, keeping busy, making money. But there came a lull. So I parked in front of the Old South Pancake House, waiting on a call.

My mind slipped into a meditative state, and I was passively observing my thoughts as they passed by one by one like the cars on a train.

The thought came by: "Wouldn't it be cool if I got a $25 round trip?" Other thoughts followed. Two or three minutes later I got a call. It was to pick up the hotel just down the street.

As I pulled into the hotel parking lot I saw three young men running toward me.

"You're a cab driver. You know where the girls are!"

"Yes, I do. But:
1. It's late.
2. It's cold.
3. It rained a couple of hours ago and drove the girls off the street. I don't think you will find any girls tonight."

They insisted. I took them on a tour: no girls in sight. So I dropped them off at the hotel, collected my $25 fare, and went back to the Old South. Exactly the thought I had a couple of minutes before I took the call...a $25 round trip.

That is a true and objective report of what happened.

Now explain this scientifically. The same difficulty plagues proving astrology.

No takers?
What possible explanations?

Quiet mind, disengaged, no thinking going on, just observing thoughts as they hatch and march off to where ever undeveloped thoughts go. My mind was at rest, still. Quietly watching, nothing more. That was my subjective state, which occurred spontaneously and was not consciously directed, at the moment the thought "$25 round trip" came into view and sailed on.

Two or three minutes after I had noticed the thought, the call to pick up the hotel came onto my computer screen. The computer works by radio; just in case it's pertinent...I had some metallic fillings in my teeth.

The hotel was about two hundred yards from my position, on the other side of the built-up earth that carried the freeway.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Here's a true story.

I'm an old cab driver. One night in Fort Worth I was having a good night, keeping busy, making money. But there came a lull. So I parked in front of the Old South Pancake House, waiting on a call.

My mind slipped into a meditative state, and I was passively observing my thoughts as they passed by one by one like the cars on a train.

The thought came by: "Wouldn't it be cool if I got a $25 round trip?" Other thoughts followed. Two or three minutes later I got a call. It was to pick up the hotel just down the street.

As I pulled into the hotel parking lot I saw three young men running toward me.

"You're a cab driver. You know where the girls are!"

"Yes, I do. But:
1. It's late.
2. It's cold.
3. It rained a couple of hours ago and drove the girls off the street. I don't think you will find any girls tonight."

They insisted. I took them on a tour: no girls in sight. So I dropped them off at the hotel, collected my $25 fare, and went back to the Old South. Exactly the thought I had a couple of minutes before I took the call...a $25 round trip.

That is a true and objective report of what happened.

Now explain this scientifically. The same difficulty plagues proving astrology.
No takers?
What possible explanations?

Quiet mind, disengaged, no thinking going on, just observing thoughts as they hatch and march off to where ever undeveloped thoughts go. My mind was at rest, still. Quietly watching, nothing more. That was my subjective state, which occurred spontaneously and was not consciously directed, at the moment the thought "$25 round trip" came into view and sailed on.
the fact that no one on this forum has provided "a scientific explanation"
does not mean there is none :smile:
i.e.
ours is an astrological AMATEUR learning forum
not "a scientific forum"
in any event

no one has as yet defined "scientific explanation"
 

greybeard

Well-known member
The scientific method is drilled into us from very early on and we are absolutely unaware of the degree to which this influences our mode of perception and thought.

As I am easy to live with and undemanding, I would settle for "reasonable" or "logical" in lieu of "scientific".

I use "scientific method" in the loosest way here.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
It wasn't intuitive.

Round trips are not that common.
There is no set price for any trip. $25 is an unusually large fare, not common.

I have a sensitive and active intuitive mind and am used to watching it work. This was very different.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
I bring up this personal experience to illustrate the difficulty in explaining how astrology works. This simple personal experience can't compare to astrology in level of complexity, yet even so I have never found a suitable explanation that does not contain mystery. And mystery is unscientific.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Second cab story.
I pick up a man going to DFW. It turns out he is a crew leader at JPL...a real rocket scientist.
So I mention that I had read of an experiment in which two separate beams of light, travelling in opposite directions from a single source act really weird. Beam A is intercepted in its course by a mirror which makes it turn north. Companion Beam B, which is not intercepted, simultaneously turns north too.

He said he was familiar with the experiment. And then he said, with a dramatic pause..."Kinda Metaphysical, isn't it?"

And astrology is kinda metaphysical, isn't it?
 

greybeard

Well-known member
So you either believe that astrology is a subjective phenomenon like waybread, or you have no idea what you are talking about.

Petosiris, mind your manners. You are welcome to your viewpoints; there is no need for insulting behavior. That's the second time. No mas. Ya.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
There are some highly competent astrologers among our amateurs. And some professionals.

You are going round and round, avoiding the question. If we are going to spend the day quibbling about "scientific" or logical, about whether an amateur is entitled to a thought, then count me out.

What explains this mysterious event? "Scientific", as defined by the OP, deals with "material and physical" matters. This event was not physical-material; it was an experience on the psychological plane.

It was not "intuitive".
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Astrology does not "work" through physical means (gamma rays, gravitation, etc.).

Will someone please explain to me how "entanglement" works?

Long and short, astrology works. I have no need to either defend or explain it, but only to learn to use it wisely.
 

petosiris

Banned
Ok, you are entitled to your opinion.

But in the real world, if something is measurable, it is physical/scientific. Astrology, unlike most religious beliefs, is falsifiable.
 

petosiris

Banned
You do not need a mechanism, you only need to show results. Every sincere practitioner tries to do that, just with not enough methodological vigour.
 

petosiris

Banned
Long and short, astrology works.

You are making a falsifiable statement. You are declaring that the whole or some part of astrology is physics, which is an extraordinary claim that may or may not be correct.
 

petosiris

Banned
Denouncing astrology as unscientific is a futile endeavour and an implausible contradiction for astrologers. Its main attraction is the promise that it contains entirely new and extremely important knowledge that might be gained from its study. People just need to be less arrogant and go more humble about it, because certain favourable views upon the subject may turn out to be false, and as it was stated before, there is no available mechanism or solid enough evidence (there are a lot more things that are to be tested though). In this way it has potential to outgrow its fringe theories.
 
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