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  #26  
Unread 07-19-2007, 12:05 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

All My stuff in Black.
This turned into something looking like, transformational astrology, although I really dont know what that is, wans't going to post it, was just figuring stuff out, didn't look that bad, so I'm deciding to post it for the hell of it.
Tsquare
============================================

CLINICAL FEATURES



PAPD patients characteristically procrastinate, resist demands for adequate performance, find excuses for delays, and find fault with those on whom they depend; yet they refuse to extricate themselves from the dependent relationships. They usually lack assertiveness and are not direct about their own needs and wishes. They fail to ask needed questions about what is expected of them and may become anxious when forced to succeed(who isnt when forced, or rushed, these people have a low confront of the physical enviroment that others dont have a problem with, they are just stuck in things, thats all, mabie a very badly aspected neptune, they cant get enough attention up to present time)or when their usual defense of turning anger against themselves is removed.
(It would be interesting to ask them who wouldn't let them express their anger ever , or who used to restrict their motions that was important in their life, and see their eyes get real big,(this who, or group may show up by house) these people just can't confront force, or using in, and cant use it ever, so I would say badly aflicted mars )

In interpersonal relationships, these people attempt to manipulate themselves into a position of dependence, but others often experience this passive, self-detrimental behavior as punitive and munipulative. People with this disorder expect ( I supose the key word here is expect, mabie its because they have no self stated goals of their own, so when someone asks them to do something they just do it without thought, cause their suposed too (push overs),........ (suposed too's are bad, these people truely feel they have no choice and have a hard time dirrecting their own actions or making their own decisions in present time(mabie alot of water in chart???), seems like unconcious stuff involved, mabie the moon with neptune or something squaring the ascendent)...........and expect other to do the same....sounds like there into sacrafice and also think that this is the direction towards being in charge.....a lack of true self, they feel like property, they dont exist, therefore nobody else really does either-----makes me think mars in 6H badly aspected with a weak first house) others to do their errands and to carry out their routine responsibilities. Friends and clinicians may become enmeshed in trying to assuage the patients' many claims of unjust treatment.(which may have happened) The close relationships of people with PAPD, however, are rarely tranquil or happy. Because they are bound to their resentment more closely than to their satisfaction, they may never even formulate goals(How would you state a goal if you didn't know who you were, or what you wanted, simply no true sence of self, they may be stuck in a valence of another and not know it, once again Id say weak first house and som odd aspects to the ascendent, Also seems to need to prove someone or something wrong as a goal above all else......starting to sound) for finding enjoyment in life. People with this disorder lack self-confidence and are typically pessimistic about the future.(May have been forced to take other's goals as their own, Not sure where to look for that, mabie saturn in the 4thH square sun or moon, in the firstH or ascendent . It would confuse ones sence of identity and pride....places of self sacrafice in the chart for the "good of all")

(they are simply stuck in the past, litterally, and see no future as a reality, they chase the future from where they are in the past, instead of seeing a possobility that they can create a future, or even BE in one....sounds like neurosis is involved as well, Probably cant state goals because the "have enough problems already" they are under the weight of disapointments and failures of there own goals(overwealmed), and have lost too many times in life already, they have given up, they "need" direction and can't create there own interest in things, they need someone elses, not enough randomity in enviroment and have grown accustomed to too little, can't create their own attention or intention, they are simply in a apathy, and live on others dirrection so in "reality" so does everyone else, they are dumbfounded when people dont take their orders cause he cant see any other way of being or achieving things.....Can ya tell I've seen this before??.....I would look at saturn in a chart, also the nodes and see if they need help in theses areas, hard aspects to the NN could indicate blockages to their true purpose....nobodys unhappy for no reason....they have a reason, may not be a good one. I see it as just a problem of not achieving self stated goals(mabie Mars by house could also show where those goals are as well). Or quite possibly destiny. They have a bad sence of self respect....Mabie look for bad aspects to first house as well or a badly afflicted sun. This can be fixed, once a person becomes aware of self once more, through self realization, this may lighten up the transits that set these thing off every now and then in them. if ya just tell em whats wrong with em they arn't getting any better...ever. he probably just got burried under others goals, had alot of failures in life and its easier to cling in them and use them to justify future failures.....its bellow apathy but the person will wear a mask of a smile....also a goal of a person could be in apathy or anything below that like shame or blame and the person could be up in excitement or even stuck in it, This may be the other deffinition below PD)


DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSIS:


PAPD must be differentiated from histrionic and borderline PD. Patients with PAPD, however, are less flamboyant, dramatic, affective and openly aggressive than those with histrionic and borderline PD.
(I think all of this is borderline and to call it a dissease is a little odd....its more like a symptom, a symptom of not achieving ones self stated goals, then comes apathy, then comes needing direction and motion, and living in the past.(nothing wrong with the past, lots of good stuff there, just that future life isnt in the past) I can see where neptune(delusionment) may come in,.
and even mars. and also the nodes, looking at those areas of a chart and with the persons help one may be able to find those areas(houses) where, in the past, which to them may seem present, that they have failed in those areas, and they may move on refreshed, or have a nice realization that then is then and now is now, and now could be later, and there is a future that they could have and help create, by their choice to join I get the feeling these people have been forced arround enough, the past has just become too easy of a place to live for them, this to me screams neptune influence, mabie also a badly afflicted mars, or a saturn influence that they never overcame, mabie bad aspects to the nodes, mabie bad aspects to the sun(will, life) also, murcury is such an interesting charecter himself that it would be hard for me to say just what aspects you may see, once again by house, by sign, by aspect, and then to really know you'd have to also ask the person who has the chart as well, or at least look at the person sitting right infront of you just to see whats there.
so.....lots of things really(laugh))


COURSE & PROGNOSIS:


In a follow-up study averaging 11 years of 100 PA inpatients, Small found that the primary diagnosis in 54 was PAPD; 18 were alcohol abusers, and 30 could be clinically labeled depressed. Of the 73 former patients located, 58 (79%) had persistent psychiatric difficulties and 9 (12%) were considered symptom-free. Most seemed irritable, anxious, and depressed; somatic (internal physical) complaints were numerous. Only 32 (44%) were employed full time as workers or homemakers. Although neglect of responsibility and suicide attempts were common, only one patient had committed suicide in the interim. 28 had been readmitted to a hospital, but the disorders of only 34 had been diagnosed as schizophrenia.

Do they have a drug for this "disease" I kind of hope not.


Looks like "these people" have some extreme guilt for something, what? ....????. doesnt mean they are guilty always, may have been some form of supression, or opression, that put them under or even drug influence. Mabie just a failed purpose that they are stuck in, unfinished business, loose ends. Either way they are having a hard time deciding who they are and just what they do deserve, and probably feel they need to even justify their very existence, may feel undeserving.

Just a Thought.
Mabie a little too opinionated of one.
I'm waiting to get kicked in the nuts for this one.
=============================================
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  #27  
Unread 07-20-2007, 05:38 AM
johnmike59 johnmike59 is offline
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Smile Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

I've always thought that a passive aggressive is one who couches a negative or hostile emotion with something benign. Sarcasm is classic passive aggressive as is being late for an appointment with a friend or family member. You may be furious, whatever the reason, but know that he or she has NO CHOICE but to wait for you -- if they leave, then you can say what made you late and turn your real anger back on them.

If I have one lightbulb and you want to take it, the classic passive aggressive would say, "That's okay, take it please. I don't mind sitting here in the dark" -- when what they're thinking is "You're self absorbed, selfish AND you're taking my light bulb." Eventually, they find a way to even the score.

Sounds like textbook Scorpio to me - if we are assigning passive aggressive behavior to any particular sign. I think it's true of the Water Signs overall. The Fire would never stand for it, the Earth would think it a waste of anger and utterly impractical and the Air would hold a loftier thought or move on to something more important!

Interesting thread, as per!
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  #28  
Unread 07-20-2007, 06:49 PM
Damari Damari is offline
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

Forgive my ignorance guys but what is referred to as the DSM could someone explain that to me please?:34:
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  #29  
Unread 07-20-2007, 07:08 PM
johnmike59 johnmike59 is offline
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Smile Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)

You do a Google Search to read more about DSM. There's a wikipedia article as well. By the way, you're not ignorant. There's no shame in asking questions and I've found everyone here so very nice and helpful. ))

Hope that helps!
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  #30  
Unread 08-11-2007, 04:45 AM
Mitchatron_5000 Mitchatron_5000 is offline
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

Perhaps a twelfth house Mars with some bad aspects may indicate passive agressive behaviour?
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  #31  
Unread 08-11-2007, 09:15 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

How about this?

Mars in Capricorn. Should be strong, exalted, right? And trine Saturn, sextile Uranus, looks good so far. Conjunct Sun, square Pluto. If anything, explosive.

In fact, this person has a violent temper, when he finally expresses his anger, though so far the anger has been taken out on things (destroying personal possessions of other people, for instance).

Where I see the problem is here:

Moon in Pisces, opposing Saturn in Virgo, both square to
Mercury conjunct Neptune [lack of judgment, repression]

Sun conjunct Mars, square Pluto [explosion]

T-square in 4th, 6th, 10th (3rd, 6th and 9th with equal houses).

Saturn in the 4th (HUGE problems with father), T projecting into 12th house (more Piscean issues).

If anyone is interested, I'll attach a file (if I can), but minus name and any personal information (place of birth, etc.)

I would REALLY like thoughts on this chart.

Gaer

PS: I was able to upload the file, obviously...

Last edited by gaer; 04-16-2009 at 10:00 PM.
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  #32  
Unread 08-15-2007, 03:08 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

Hi Gaer, I have had a quick look here...just briefly:
I notice Saturn is detrimented in Virgo and retrograde and opposite the moon with a T square to sun/mars on house 8 cusp...hmmmm.
saturn, in H4- the home, the way things turn out...Its ruled by mercury, as his ascendant...gemini-duality..a theme that is reiterated by his mercury/neptune right on the cusp of H7 (other people)...This suggests to me a person who rules the roost in the home even though his behaviour contradicts his *rules* (and I'm sure the *rules* would be piscean whims born of his moon dreaming big in the tenth but squared by his explosive violent tantrums.Other peoples resources denied him because of his unreliable irresponsible nature. The moon in pisces sure is a dreamer but the unstable saturn means they have no basis in reality...his dreams will bring him down. And when I say dreams* I also mean his fantasies...now look at uranus venus all alone in H6, daily life....in the house of scorpio-sex, death, dark stuff...I think he could be sexually sadistic.
This chart is very scary to me. I'm glad I don't know this person.(Well, I hope I don't.....)
I would say he is domestically irresponsible, lying to people (esp. partner),having a secret dark side.Impulses that cannot be controlled..who cannot separate fantasy from reality but becomes enraged if anyone tries to give him a reality check...A true sociopath who does not respect others and lives in his own world...Pluto square the sun/mars makes me shudder to think how he would approach sex...nothing is loving at all here.The positive aspects you outlined are maybe helping him get away with it....Wow.What a chart...With all that saturn he might not be very physically attractive either..Jupiter square chiron...big wounds to the ego..my my. Best wishes Lillyjgc....ps maybe a NARCISSIST.
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  #33  
Unread 08-15-2007, 08:52 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly
Hi Gaer, I have had a quick look here...just briefly:
I notice Saturn is detrimented in Virgo and retrograde and opposite the moon with a T square to sun/mars on house 8 cusp...hmmmm.
saturn, in H4- the home, the way things turn out...Its ruled by mercury, as his ascendant...gemini-duality..a theme that is reiterated by his mercury/neptune right on the cusp of H7 (other people)...This suggests to me a person who rules the roost in the home even though his behaviour contradicts his *rules* (and I'm sure the *rules* would be piscean whims born of his moon dreaming big in the tenth but squared by his explosive violent tantrums.
I would have to enlarge on this in private, but you are correct.

Quote:
Other peoples resources denied him because of his unreliable irresponsible nature.
True, again.
Quote:
The moon in pisces sure is a dreamer but the unstable saturn means they have no basis in reality...his dreams will bring him down. And when I say dreams* I also mean his fantasies...now look at uranus venus all alone in H6, daily life....in the house of scorpio-sex, death, dark stuff...I think he could be sexually sadistic.
I can confirm dreams with no basis in reality. You are very close, perhaps closer than I know myself, since as you have already guessed, this person does not allow anyone to know what is going on in "their" head.
Quote:
This chart is very scary to me. I'm glad I don't know this person.(Well, I hope I don't.....)
You don't, and your analysis is correct. I won't say more here!

Gaer
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  #34  
Unread 08-16-2007, 05:02 AM
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Saturn, to lilly

lilly,

You said:
Quote:
Saturn is detrimented in Virgo
Saturn is not in detriment in Virgo. Saturn is in detriment in Cancer. In the chart Saturn is in detriment by house (Saturn is in the 4th house, the house of its detriment).

Saturnally,

Tim
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  #35  
Unread 09-04-2007, 08:38 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

yes water signs especially cancerian females seem to resonate as a passive aggressive energy.
Sun mars or ascendant in cancer in a potential candidate.
passive aggressive means the actual ability to assert is blocked in some way imo.
So perhaps saturn could be in there too with the cancerian energy.

Libra can be passive aggressive if it wants something but doesnt want to be open about it - instead wants to get someone else to do it for them
why well - its a part of the manipulation thing as seeing the world having an external locus of control

so perhaps there is more than one sign / configuation which shows up as passive aggressive.
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  #36  
Unread 09-04-2007, 03:24 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

Wow I totally had that one wrong....I know this guy who I once thought was passive aggressive...was I wrong??
Here I go:
He gets very aggressive....when he does not get his way, like throwing a chair...then in the next instant becomes like a child, apologizing and this baby talk is his way of getting what he wants....never physically abusive
Passive....acting like a baby to get his way....aggressive....acting aggressive to show his distaste for the situation not going in his favor....Cancer moon, Mars in gemini
Or would the term better fit my aunt...she is sick and she cries and sits there and tells my cousin that she had better not go to school or else here mommy might be dead when she comes home....Heavy water influences throughout
I guess I really dont know.....these are extremes situations I can point out to see which one fits...
I personally have mars in 2nd house taurus...I dont get mad, I take my anger and let it build up...I do want to have my position heard, but my moon in Virgo wont allow it right away...I walk away...get some good witty or smart comebacks, find where I stand, brew over it for awhile then I go back to the situation and fire away...where people dont get me is that it can be a few days and then people are like "what are you talking about" The problem with me is that I walk away from every stressful situation...like facing it is too much for me...but I want to keep my emotions in check so I find some analytical verbal or written way to show my feelings, sometimes with calm verbal attacks (I like that much better)...now when I dont get the chance to leave, like I am at dinner or at work...my emotions get all crazy and I cannot get my words right and I internally go nuts!...unable to deal with emotions on a level where I am totally uncomfortable with them sun in gemini, virgo moon, aquarius rising, mars in taurus...only 9% water in my chart
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  #37  
Unread 09-04-2007, 04:41 PM
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passive-aggressive, to steph

steph,

Here's one defintion for passive-aggressive:
Quote:
personality in which individuals resist demands for adequate performance in work and social situations. The resistance is indirectly expressed, for example, by misplacing work assignments, or being late to appointments or forgetting things.
Notice that the passive-aggressive person is passive in their resistance: they don't outright refuse to do the work, but they resist by doing it poorly, or slowly, or not very well, etc. So the man who blows up is not "passive" and so not passive-aggressive. Your aunt is trying to "guilt" people into doing what she wants, but doesn't have any "aggressive" actions to back up the guilting, so she also doesn't fit as a "passive-aggressive".

Explaining,

Tim
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  #38  
Unread 09-04-2007, 08:22 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

Thanks Wilson!!!

I read here in the thread and on the National Institute of Mental Health that one may not necessarily become "agressive" to be considered for this type of illness..

Symptoms include:
  • Contradictory and inconsistent behavior. An individual with passive-aggressive personality disorder may appear enthusiastic to carry out others’ requests, but he or she purposely performs in a manner that is not useful and sometimes even damaging.
  • Intentional avoidance of responsibility. Some behaviors that may be used to avoid responsibility include:
    • Procrastination – to delay or postpone needlessly and intentionally
    • Deliberate inefficiency – purposefully performing in an incompetent manner
    • Forgetfulness
  • Feelings of resentment toward others
  • Stubbornness
  • Argumentative, sulky, and hostile, especially toward authority figures
  • Easily offended
  • Resentful of useful suggestions from others
  • Blames others
  • Chronically impatient
  • Unexpressed anger or hostility (does not express openly)
The aggressive qualities are expressed through the symptoms above, but they are unable to show qualities of real aggression, so they sabotage their feelings into these other symptoms. They would rather place blame and anger onto another person, so that they wont have to feel it themselves, but they still do. It is deplacement of feelings onto another, classically. Although anger is commonplace for these individuals they would rather supress it or displace it onto another. That is why they call it passive agressive...passing the aggression onto someone else while remaining passive; the martyr so that they themselves seem like the victim...
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  #39  
Unread 09-04-2007, 10:09 PM
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exactly! to Steph

Steph,

You said:
Quote:
one may not necessarily become "agressive" to be considered for this type of illness
Exactly! The person doesn't openly express their hostility in an open or "aggressive" way, but makes their anger known through their actions (e.g., deliberately misplacing, misdelivering, misdoing, etc.).

Agreeing,

Tim
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  #40  
Unread 09-07-2007, 08:21 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

This is a very interesting thread, I wanted to ask if anyone has studied anyones chart who has PAB? I wanted to share my chart, because I have alot of water and most people assume that I am passive by looking at my chart. I wanted to know what you think.
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  #41  
Unread 01-15-2008, 05:42 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

It is intresting that cancer comes up alot but what about a mars in pisces 12 th house,with an aqua moon 12 house?? from what ive seen of this person i speak of,hes very passive agressive with his mars being afflicted.His anger goes to one extreme to the next,being verbally abusive to goin thro periods of apathy and sulkiness and manipulations to get his own way,and also guilt is a big thing for him too he uses against others.Would this be considered passive agressive as well??
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  #42  
Unread 01-15-2008, 09:42 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

The passive agressive pesonality is sweet as pie on the outside, everything they say seems to have ones best interest at heart, however sometime afterwards (perhaps the next day) one is pulling the dagger out of ones back.

PA's are highly rebellious in a sweet and seemingly above board way. I have know some good ones with Mars in 12th. Doesn't matter what sign it seems.

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  #43  
Unread 01-16-2008, 04:40 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

My brother has Mars in 12th and he is definately passive-agressive. Thank god he loves sports, so he can channel all that energy into that.

But I have some serious problems with one of my friends. I don't know what to do with her. She has very hardly aspected Mars in Aries, squaring Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and directly opposing MC. She also has Venus in Scorpio conjuct Pluto.

She has all the symptoms that smilingsteph said and because I am very sensitive Cancer-Moon with very many Neptune aspects, I have very hard time with her cause I feel every minute her anger. I love this girl, but it is just so hard...She has had some very bad experiences in her life and I understand very well why she is like this (protecting herself) but it is so **** hard for me. If I do not do EVERYTHING right ALL the time, I get bad looks and notes and evil words that are said in some odd way to make me feel completely bad. She does not have to be perfect (in her own words) "cause she is what she is" (Sun in Sagittarius) but I have to understand her and be something that she wants me to be ALL the time...That is so hard....

And I have Venus in Aquarius in 12th and many Neptune aspects, you can imagine how much I will do for her and how much I will adapt...I just don't know what to do...We have very good relationship, except for this. I am very hard for myself and when someone makes me feel even worse about myself than I already do...oh well, I just feel veeryyy bad.

If someone has found a way to deal with this kind of stuff, I would be very pleased to know about it.
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  #44  
Unread 01-16-2008, 07:00 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding about this problem. Being "passive" (lots of water, Mars in Cancer, etc.), and managing anger so that one does not explode, etc. does not make one a passive-aggressive!
(For PAB I understand a symptom of a personality disorder rather than a mild trait.)

My ex-husband showed PAB as part of a psychiatric disorder.
His chart has Mars (afflicted) in the first, and a rather complex pattern involving hard aspects between the Asc and its ruler, Mars' dispositor conj. MC (and both opp. Sun), and the ruler of MC which is the planet that "hurts" Mars the most. This planet is not Saturn as many could think but Pluto.

I don't think that we can say "Mars in Cancer" or "Mars in Water" are significators for this disorder without really understanding a bit more about the - allow me the term - physiology of the whole individual's chart and the behavioural patterns they present, their history, what triggers the behaviour, etc.

If anyone knows of other serious, clinically diagnosed cases of PAB, I would be interested to hear about them.

@Ebenia:
Serious cases need psychological help and treatment. Otherwise, they'll drive you mad and manipulate the situation and end up blaming you for it. Beware of falling into a situation were you feel responsible for this girl. I understand you want to help her, but if she is a Passive Agressive kind, then there is a limit to what you can do for her. The closer you become, the more you will suffer her "passive agression". PM me if you want.
Best,
Bizquit

Last edited by Bizquit; 01-16-2008 at 07:07 PM.
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  #45  
Unread 01-16-2008, 10:11 PM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agreesive Behavior

Well said Bizquit, and a very intersting indicator for your ex husband. Sort of sticks right out.

best

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  #46  
Unread 07-09-2016, 06:50 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

Mars in the water signs
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Unread 07-09-2016, 07:03 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Mars in the water signs
I would modify that to afflicted or debilitated Mars in water signs. If someone has a strongly placed Mars in Scorpio, with nice, supportive aspects, then I don't see that as an indication of passive/aggressive behavior. Even Mars in Pisces can be very direct, if there is an angular placement and a solid or grounding aspect from Saturn or the Sun , Jupiter perhaps.
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Unread 07-09-2016, 07:05 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I would modify that to afflicted or debilitated Mars in water signs. If someone has a strongly placed Mars in Scorpio, with nice, supportive aspects, then I don't see that as an indication of passive/aggressive behavior. Even Mars in Pisces can be very direct, if there is an angular placement and a solid or grounding aspect from Saturn or the Sun , Jupiter perhaps.
I suppose. Mars in cancer is pretty passive-agressive no matter what.
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Unread 07-09-2016, 07:13 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

I think afflictions between Mars/Mercury, especially in mutable sign or cadent houses, can signify Passive- aggressive behavior patterns. [ one's actions do not match up with one's words]

One example that comes to mind is a long time friend, with Mars in Sag and Mercury squaring it from Pisces in the 4th house. She is a long time family friend, and has some nice qualities. She is helpful, funny, and very kind when she wants to be. But she has been very two-faced at times, telling me one thing and then saying another behind my back/ And when I confront her, she can be kind of passive/aggressive about it. Gives a weak, insincere, fake, sweet apology, couched in an explanation for her back stabbing behavior. [ I was going to tell you when I thought you could handle hearing it...] It really bugs me because she is at most of our big family functions and it kind of puts a damper on Thanksgiving sometimes...
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Unread 07-09-2016, 07:17 AM
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Re: Indicators of Passive Agressive Behavior

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I suppose. Mars in cancer is pretty passive-agressive no matter what.
LOL, yup. I kind of left that one out of my example because it is 'afflicted' just by it's sign placement.
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