Sr shows Death or Surgery? Is her life in danger?

I have written here about Julia before, but this time she asked me to check out her chart to see if she'll have surgery, and I am not sure what's going on, because it looks like death to me.

Here is the previous thread for background story on Julia if anyone wants to know. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11971

She's about 510 pounds now, having dieted down for gastic bypass which could be happening as soon as the next month, and I am beyond worried, because I don't think she's ready for surgery. scratch that, I know she's not ready, she has no control over her portions, eats whatever she wants, and still doesn't exercise at all. So I looked at her chart for her dec 2011 SR, and I have been feeling ill about it for months, and finally I'm asking for help. Here goes:




So BobZemco once said if someone's 8th house comes to the ascendant, you'd better check things out, and that's where I started. Here's what's worrying me:

1. 8th house is coming to the ascendant. Yes I know the 8th house rules both surgery and death, so maybe this is reflecting the Gastric Bypass.

2. The next thing I notice is that SR saturn is in the 1st, conjuncting her NA pluto in the 1st. The orb is wide, but these planets are indicating a difficult year. I realize it can kind of go two ways: Saturn can indicate the newfound discipline she'll need WRT her new way of eating and exercising, and pluto can show the transformations she could make with this diet... but the planets can also indicate loss and death.

3. Julia's natal saturn is in the 12th, possibly indicating hospitalization, conjuncting SR mars in a 7 degree orb... or perhaps it's showing the depression and need to spend time alone after having this surgery?

4. Julia's SR ruler is venus, and she's located in the 4th house (of endings), conjuncting her natal venus....

5. Julia's natal moon is conjunct her SR 8th house, exactly... my first thought was a peaceful death, I hope I'm wrong. I just hope I'm wrong, it just feels like added up, this is one awful chart. But maybe the surgery is what she needs emotionally as well as physically.

Julia has a 12 year old daughter and a 4 year old son. I just keep thinking how this is going to devastate her daughter. I looked at the 12 year old's chart for april 2012, and she has saturn on the ascendant, conjuncting her natal moon by 4 degrees. I thought it looked like a sentence that says she'll lose (saturn) her mother (moon) this year. yes, it could also be some sort of emotional disapointment, but combining this with Julia's chart, I am just scared. I'm so scared.

Julia's not ready for this surgery, it's one of the most dangerous things you can do,. and it's elective... but Julia sees this as her one shot to lose weight and despite how she's not taking the diet seriously, she seems to think that once she has the surgery she won't be "able" to to overeat, so she's thinking that this surgery will stop her, which means she doesn't have to make any real changes until right before it happens..

We know Julia has make a will, she's already told me she wants me to have medical power of attorney and custody of the children and so forth but I DO NOT WANT this. I mean.. you know? I hope there's no need for this.

What does everyone else see? Is it all as bad as I think? Someone give me hope.

well it all depends on what house system you use. In Equal house Asc falls in 9th. Death in my opinion cannot be seen in a natal chart, cannot be reliably predicted and should not even be looked for either.

She is having a *major lifechanging transit* ie; t Pluto conj sun. for things like surgery I would look for mars square pluto aspects, something going on in 6th house of health and/or asc.

Solar returns http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=265454&postcount=7

All solar returns are about ‘potential’ as is the natal chart, but we don’t always fulfil our potential, whether it’s due to ‘other people or unforeseen circumstances’ or a choice of two things and maybe possibly making different choices meant you didn’t fulfil that potential in this Solar return.

I don't read SR's as stand alone cos you can get far more information from bi wheel, it can give a natal planet an opening or expression by conjuncting SR Asc or MC for example and any SR planets conj natal planets are important to.

when selecting a solar return chart from astro in Extended chart selection it's important to select 2nd option 'with houses' as this will put the degree onto planets and Angles --

http://cafeastrology.com/interpretingsolarreturns.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17763
http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Solar_Return_Chart
http://www.maryshea.com/sr.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/solarreturn.htm

The house in which the Sun falls in the SR chart is the birthday month's forecast and influence, and each house after is the following month, since the Sun transits at the rate of one sign or house per month. Each house is treated as events in that month, and the sign and planet ruling the cusp influences the outlook for that month. The chart is used like a clock, with 12 months on its face instead of 12 hours. As the Sun conjoins or aspects other planets in the SR, it will generate events
http://www.typhonvision.com/art-solarreturn.htm

Lastly, for something 'major' to happen, it should also be reflected in your transits, progressions and possibly solar arcs. So don't ignore these methods in favour of JUST solar returns

The house in which the Sun falls in the SR chart is the birthday month's forecast and influence, and each house after is the following month, since the Sun transits at the rate of one sign or house per month. Each house is treated as events in that month, and the sign and planet ruling the cusp influences the outlook for that month. The chart is used like a clock, with 12 months on its face instead of 12 hours. As the Sun conjoins or aspects other planets in the SR, it will generate events

T Saturn will go over natal pluto in 9th house Equal house before Xmas and this solar return

2. The next thing I notice is that SR saturn is in the 1st, conjuncting her NA pluto in the 1st. The orb is wide, but these planets are indicating a difficult year. I realize it can kind of go two ways: Saturn can indicate the newfound discipline she'll need WRT her new way of eating and exercising, and pluto can show the transformations she could make with this diet... but the planets can also indicate loss and death.

Click to expand...

7' orb is far far to wide...stop worrying

3. Julia's natal saturn is in the 12th, possibly indicating hospitalization, conjuncting SR mars in a 7 degree orb... or perhaps it's showing the depression and need to spend time alone after having this surgery? [her natal saturn is in 8th house, what chart are you looking at?]

4. Julia's SR ruler is venus, and she's located in the 4th house (of endings), conjuncting her natal venus....[AND? venus here suggests, getting pleasure in being in the home roots and with family]

5. Julia's natal moon is conjunct her SR 8th house, exactly... my first thought was a peaceful death, I hope I'm wrong. I just hope I'm wrong, it just feels like added up, this is one awful chart. But maybe the surgery is what she needs emotionally as well as physically.

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my goodness, it sounds like you have 'talking yourself into this!'

why don't you post the natal with progressions and transits, and SR as separate chart?

Merriman's book on solar returns says you should use the SR house to indicate the location of the planets. While her natal 8th house comes to the ascendant, you still use the SR house, so with that, Julia's natal saturn is in her SR 12th house. Not in equal signs, of course.

If I come off as sightly hysterical, I'm ok with that. This is my real life and if something goes wrong, I'll have to face her children and tell them what happened and then raise them, so I'm not bothered by seemingly worrying over nothing. This surgery is probably the most dagerous surgery she could have, and this chart worries me for days. I hope I sound crazy, and I hope I'm wrong.

This solar return is the biwheel with the natal/SR combo.

Julia's SR for 2010 has the Sun/Pluto conjunction in the 6th, which will be in effect til dec 2011.

In this 2011 chart you suggest she'll get pleasure from family and home, I live here, I very much doubt it. She'll be in pain from the surgery, and probably tortured because she can't eat regular foods... or sick because she ate too much... And that's not including the pain from the surgery, healing time, and possibly infected scars and so forth... this is a very dangerous time for her. I'd be a fool to quit worrying and hope for the best.

Here is the chart you're requesting... I couldn't add it as an attachment cause it was too big.




So... as you say... transitting saturn is going to hit her natal pluto in the 8th house of death before xmas. on top of everything else. I feel like I want to throw up.

here's the stand-alone SR for 2011



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lastly, for something 'major' to happen, it should also be reflected in your transits, progressions and possibly solar arcs. So don't ignore these methods in favour of JUST solar returns.

I will say again SR are all about *possible potential* nothing more

I REPEAT DEATH CANNOT BE 100% RELIABLY PREDICTED and should not be sought, on ethical grounds either....

Now, I notice prog mars has now turned retrograde, suggesting her finding it harder to 'take action'. Now in Equal house it's well out of 8th house and transiting her 9th house. Now as this pluto is not in her 'personal area houses' ie: 1-4 I doubt whether she will feel this transit on any kind of personal level, besides which pluto is 'well aspected' so please stop worrying.

her prog MC is now conj natal mercury, so communications should be more easy, at least for a while.

So 9'43" SR Asc falls in 9th house of philosophies, higher learning

Merriman's book on solar returns says you should use the SR house to indicate the location of the planets. While her natal 8th house comes to the ascendant, you still use the SR house, so with that, Julia's natal saturn is in her SR 12th house. Not in equal signs, of course.

Click to expand...

I suggest your widen your research into SR and other predictive methods. You could try posting a horary chart, to asking a direct question.

I felt like offering an update...

So I was looking at Julia's 8th house activity, and looking at her daughter's SR for 2012, and seeing that moon conjunct saturn it looked like she was going to lose her mother. Well, she did. Just not the way I thought.

Julia had gastric bypass in Dec, and then moved into a rehab place to recover. For the past few months she'd fallen in love with a woman, and since they lived with me, it was a big deal because Julia was being disrespectful and having the woman over 12 hours a day.

What actually happened is that after Julia returned from rehab in Jan, we fought a ton (venus in 4th did NOT make her happy at home) and she moved in with her girlfriend in March, leaving her children with me. Julia and her lover fought a lot, and at the end of April, she attempts suicide at the woman's home by slicing her wrists. This is the first of 5 suicide attempts over her lover, the last one was July 26th.

At the end of May child protective services finds out that she's gone and they take custody of the kids, on paper, leaving the children with me. At a hearing a few days ago, they lawyers discussed plans to have me become a permanent guardian to the children if Julia doesn't get her act together. Se is currently living in a alcohol recovery/home for abused women, after being homeless for 2 weeks at the end of July.

Question: Does it seem likely that she will ever get the kids back? Julia's going through pluto conjunct sun, and I've heard that things taken from you during that transit, you don't get back. I know I could ask a horary about it, but supposedly horary questions are only good for 6 months, so can anyone speak about pluto/sun transits and losses? Her sun is at 6 degrees, and pluto is retrograde at 7 degrees, so this transit is definitely not over...