Seeking help with determining hierarchy of significance in chart

FranzSchubert

Active member
Trying to get a better grasp on which placements/aspects of my chart are likely to be more pronounced than others.

If I am to try and quantify a sort of gradient as far as the significance/intensity of certain placements/aspects in my chart goes- what makes the most sense?

I've extrapolated from the interpretations of others that the prominence of my ascendant seems to be somewhat muted, for instance. Or that moon square pluto really stands out. Moon conjunct Regulus has been referenced a few times as well, but I'm still struggling to grasp its impact on the rest of my chart (particularly since I've learned that the star moved into the constellation Virgo in 2011).

I experience tremendous and often times unusual/bizarre difficulties in my dealings with life (although I do also in many feel as though I've been blessed), and so trying to pinpoint what specifically about my constitution is conducive to x or y is really helpful.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/c...uzel_check=on&tolerance=1&tolerance_paral=1.2
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Trying to get a better grasp on which placements/aspects of my chart are likely to be more pronounced than others.

If I am to try and quantify a sort of gradient as far as the significance/intensity of certain placements/aspects in my chart goes- what makes the most sense?

I've extrapolated from the interpretations of others that the prominence of my ascendant seems to be somewhat muted, for instance. Or that moon square pluto really stands out. Moon conjunct Regulus has been referenced a few times as well, but I'm still struggling to grasp its impact on the rest of my chart (particularly since I've learned that the star moved into the constellation Virgo in 2011).


longitudinal conjunction only is accepted by modernist astrologers
HOWEVER

fixed star "...conjunction..." is in fact not entirely longitudinal :smile:
because
majority of fixed stars are BEYOND the ECLIPTIC aka apparent path of the Sun
and
to have any notable influence natally
fixed stars require "...conjunction..." by LATITUDE and/or DECLINATION as well as longitude


declination2.gif


Traditional astrologers use PARANS
PARANS IS LOCATION SPECIFIC :smile:

Some stars will have no effect at certain latitudes
because the star cannot be seen at that latitude.
There is also curtailed passage
in which stars transcribe a circle around the globe yet never touch the horizon.
They make their own circle but never rise and never set.
Bernadette Brady explains
that stars with a curtailed passage of motion
are more extreme in their meaning
than those stars that do touch the horizon line.
Orbs are kept tight, less than 00° 30′.

There is an animated map on The Way the Sky Appears to Move: Diurnal Motion and Parans.


Figure34.gif



I experience tremendous and often times unusual/bizarre difficulties in my dealings with life (although I do also in many feel as though I've been blessed), and so trying to pinpoint what specifically about my constitution is conducive to x or y is really helpful.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.


https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/c...uzel_check=on&tolerance=1&tolerance_paral=1.2
 

FranzSchubert

Active member
longitudinal conjunction only is accepted by modernist astrologers
HOWEVER

fixed star "...conjunction..." is in fact not entirely longitudinal :smile:
because
majority of fixed stars are BEYOND the ECLIPTIC aka apparent path of the Sun
and
to have any notable influence natally
fixed stars require "...conjunction..." by LATITUDE and/or DECLINATION as well as longitude


declination2.gif


Traditional astrologers use PARANS
PARANS IS LOCATION SPECIFIC :smile:

Some stars will have no effect at certain latitudes
because the star cannot be seen at that latitude.
There is also curtailed passage
in which stars transcribe a circle around the globe yet never touch the horizon.
They make their own circle but never rise and never set.
Bernadette Brady explains
that stars with a curtailed passage of motion
are more extreme in their meaning
than those stars that do touch the horizon line.
Orbs are kept tight, less than 00° 30′.

There is an animated map on The Way the Sky Appears to Move: Diurnal Motion and Parans.


Figure34.gif


Thank you for this.

I'm afraid my chart-reading/general astrological wherewithal isn't at a level where I can assess the meaning of this as it pertains to my own chart.

What conclusion have you drawn?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you for this.
I'm afraid my chart-reading/general astrological wherewithal
isn't at a level where I can assess the meaning of this as it pertains to my own chart.
What conclusion have you drawn?
Delineating a complete natal chart takes time :smile:
did you have a specific question?




.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Franz, in terms of planetary strength, and regardless of whether you do traditional or modern astrology, I suggest you first consider your domiciled planets. These are Venus in Libra and (modernly) Uranus in Aquarius. Domiciled planets are compared to "the king in his castle.)

Then look for planets that swap their signs of domicile. Your have Mars in Virgo, a sign ruled by Mercury. Mercury is in Scorpio, a sign traditionally ruled by Mars. So Mars and Mercury are like best friends who truly support and strengthen one another.

A planet in your first house will have a pronounced influence, because the first house rules your outward personality and overall bodily vitality. So Saturn is important.

Traditionally your Jupiter and Saturn are in the signs of their fall. This would weaken them. But modern astrology wouldn't pay so much attention to that.

With Pisces rising, Neptune would be the modern ruler and Jupiter, the traditional ruler of your first house. (Modern astrology would call Neptune your chart ruler.)

You probably know that constellations and signs are not the same thing. Constellations are star-pictures They have varying widths. Signs are 30-degree pie-sectors of the heavens. In tropical western (equinox-based) astrology, these two overlap very little today, due to precession of the equinoxes over the centuries. In the traditional Hindu sidereal (star-based) zodiac, signs and constellations retain a lot of their original overlap.

People with Scorpio suns in the 8th house tend to be very private people.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Franz, in terms of planetary strength, and regardless of whether you do traditional or modern astrology, I suggest you first consider your domiciled planets. These are Venus in Libra and (modernly) Uranus in Aquarius. Domiciled planets are compared to "the king in his castle.)

Then look for planets that swap their signs of domicile. Your have Mars in Virgo, a sign ruled by Mercury. Mercury is in Scorpio, a sign traditionally ruled by Mars. So Mars and Mercury are like best friends who truly support and strengthen one another.

A planet in your first house will have a pronounced influence, because the first house rules your outward personality and overall bodily vitality. So Saturn is important.

Traditionally your Jupiter and Saturn are in the signs of their fall. This would weaken them. But modern astrology wouldn't pay so much attention to that.

With Pisces rising, Neptune would be the modern ruler and Jupiter, the traditional ruler of your first house. (Modern astrology would call Neptune your chart ruler.)

You probably know that constellations and signs are not the same thing. Constellations are star-pictures They have varying widths. Signs are 30-degree pie-sectors of the heavens. In tropical western (equinox-based) astrology, these two overlap very little today, due to precession of the equinoxes over the centuries. In the traditional Hindu sidereal (star-based) zodiac, signs and constellations retain a lot of their original overlap.

People with Scorpio suns in the 8th house tend to be very private people.
by the way
Almutem Figuris is an old doctrine :smile:
where one planet according to certain calculations applied,
receives the honors
of being Ruler or Lord of the Chart.


Robert Zoller applied the therm AlmuteM instead of AlmuteN
in order to differentiate
the Lord of the Chart
from the Lord of a certain house
or place
in the natal chart
such as Almuten Domus aka Ruler of a House.

The word Almutes is an Arabian word which means '...Winner...' :smile:
Because
the planet is the Winner of all the '...life giving...' places.
Or
the places which are most sensible and important in the natal figure.

The method we'll use here is Ezra/Zoller method.
Arabian Astrologer Ibn Ezra (1089 — 1164)
was the first
as far as we at this moment are aware
to explicitly descrbe calculating the Almutem Figuris.
Zoller says about the Almutem Figuris
that it "... is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together."


The method of calculation


1. Find the Essential Dignities (the 5 dignities, apply 3 points to all 3 triplicity rulers), in the Degree of the:
- Sun
- Moon
- Ascendant
- Part of Fortune
- Syzygy (the prenatal lunation, the one that came last, i.e. after which the birth follows - New or Full Moon).

2. Add 7 points for the Day ruler and 6 points to the Hour ruler.

3. Add accidental dignities scores.

For the planet in 1st house you add 12 points.
10th house = 11 points
7th house = 10
4th house = 9
11th = 8
5th = 7
2nd = 6
9th = 5
8th = 4
3rd = 3
12th = 2
6th = 1

The planet which has most points in the aforesaid places is the Almutem Figuris of the chart!


Zoller gives short discriptions for every planet being Almutem Figuris:

Sun:
If the Almuten figuris is the Sun, the native will want to lead, express his creative power and be recognized.

Moon:
If the Moon, s/he will want to care for, be cared for, eat and make love, dream

Mercury:
If it is Mercury, s/he will be diligent in the sciences, business and communications

Venus:
If it is Venus s/he will be a lover of beauty, of music, of men and women etc.

Mars:
If it is Mars, s/he will fight in order to dominate

Jupiter:
If it is Jupiter, s/he will philosophize and teach

Saturn:
If it is Saturn s/he will retire from society, investigate hidden things and suffer adversity.


.
 

FranzSchubert

Active member
Franz, in terms of planetary strength, and regardless of whether you do traditional or modern astrology, I suggest you first consider your domiciled planets. These are Venus in Libra and (modernly) Uranus in Aquarius. Domiciled planets are compared to "the king in his castle.)

Then look for planets that swap their signs of domicile. Your have Mars in Virgo, a sign ruled by Mercury. Mercury is in Scorpio, a sign traditionally ruled by Mars. So Mars and Mercury are like best friends who truly support and strengthen one another.

A planet in your first house will have a pronounced influence, because the first house rules your outward personality and overall bodily vitality. So Saturn is important.

Traditionally your Jupiter and Saturn are in the signs of their fall. This would weaken them. But modern astrology wouldn't pay so much attention to that.

With Pisces rising, Neptune would be the modern ruler and Jupiter, the traditional ruler of your first house. (Modern astrology would call Neptune your chart ruler.)

You probably know that constellations and signs are not the same thing. Constellations are star-pictures They have varying widths. Signs are 30-degree pie-sectors of the heavens. In tropical western (equinox-based) astrology, these two overlap very little today, due to precession of the equinoxes over the centuries. In the traditional Hindu sidereal (star-based) zodiac, signs and constellations retain a lot of their original overlap.

People with Scorpio suns in the 8th house tend to be very private people.

I have been inclined to look at my Venus in Libra in such a light, but had honestly completely neglected my Aquarian Uranus towards that same end (in trying to stick to traditional astrology, I've largely neglected the outer band of planets in my studies). Upon further inspection, Uranus actually seems quite pronounced in my chart as a whole. Does that seem like an accurate assessment to you? As for Libra Venus its significance -although ostensibly high- does seem to be muted by a number of other chart placements from what I've heard from others (and this is seemingly backed up by life experience as well).

Re: Mars/Mercury, are you suggesting that because there is a swap in domiciles here that these two otherwise (to my knowledge) conflicting planets are more likely to be harmonious with one another? I've never really looked into domicile swapping, but it seems very interesting (particularly if you see it as being an important aspect).

What does Saturn mean for my bodily vitality? And why do you suppose modern astrology wouldn't take Saturn/Jupiter being in fall as seriously as it would other planets? Do you know how these differences in conception evolved? Intuitively, planetary dignities do seem to matter to me (interested in being proven wrong, however).

I'm a bit confused with how Neptune and/or Jupiter become rulers of the first house, when Saturn is there. With regards to chart rulership, is that not determined by the degree to which certain planets are aspected by others in ones chart? I've only recently started paying any attention to overall planetary prominence, and it seems as though Uranus, Pluto, and my Sun stand out the most in mine (in that order).

I did know that about the constellations, but had forgotten :lol:. I suppose that would mean Regulus's having shifted into the constellation Virgo only has predictive relevancy in the sidereal tradition?

I don't know how private I am. I'm extremely prideful to the point where I will very rarely share with my closest of friends/family the depths of my suffering/seek out help (a predisposition that I sometimes feel will be the death of me), but conversely I am also very much open in another sense (something I've chalked up to my scorpio placements being offset by leo moon/libra venus). This fluctuation seems even more pronounced between my seeking-out/basking-in the limelight, while also finding extended periods of this to be incredibly draining and not reconcilable with my sense of true-self.

Thank you for your reply! Much to chew on.
 

FranzSchubert

Active member
by the way
Almutem Figuris is an old doctrine :smile:
where one planet according to certain calculations applied,
receives the honors
of being Ruler or Lord of the Chart.


Robert Zoller applied the therm AlmuteM instead of AlmuteN
in order to differentiate
the Lord of the Chart
from the Lord of a certain house
or place
in the natal chart
such as Almuten Domus aka Ruler of a House.

The word Almutes is an Arabian word which means '...Winner...' :smile:
Because
the planet is the Winner of all the '...life giving...' places.
Or
the places which are most sensible and important in the natal figure.

The method we'll use here is Ezra/Zoller method.
Arabian Astrologer Ibn Ezra (1089 — 1164)
was the first
as far as we at this moment are aware
to explicitly descrbe calculating the Almutem Figuris.
Zoller says about the Almutem Figuris
that it "... is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together."


The method of calculation


1. Find the Essential Dignities (the 5 dignities, apply 3 points to all 3 triplicity rulers), in the Degree of the:
- Sun
- Moon
- Ascendant
- Part of Fortune
- Syzygy (the prenatal lunation, the one that came last, i.e. after which the birth follows - New or Full Moon).

2. Add 7 points for the Day ruler and 6 points to the Hour ruler.

3. Add accidental dignities scores.

For the planet in 1st house you add 12 points.
10th house = 11 points
7th house = 10
4th house = 9
11th = 8
5th = 7
2nd = 6
9th = 5
8th = 4
3rd = 3
12th = 2
6th = 1

The planet which has most points in the aforesaid places is the Almutem Figuris of the chart!


Zoller gives short discriptions for every planet being Almutem Figuris:

Sun:
If the Almuten figuris is the Sun, the native will want to lead, express his creative power and be recognized.

Moon:
If the Moon, s/he will want to care for, be cared for, eat and make love, dream

Mercury:
If it is Mercury, s/he will be diligent in the sciences, business and communications

Venus:
If it is Venus s/he will be a lover of beauty, of music, of men and women etc.

Mars:
If it is Mars, s/he will fight in order to dominate

Jupiter:
If it is Jupiter, s/he will philosophize and teach

Saturn:
If it is Saturn s/he will retire from society, investigate hidden things and suffer adversity.


.

I'm not proficient enough in the field to really comment on any of this, and I know that this particular comment wasn't even directed at me, but I did want to give you kudos for the diligence and gravitas your methodology imparts upon your character.

Although I find myself most attracted to natal chart analysis/horoscopes personally, I do find modern astrology's fixation on this subject -at the expense of the bigger picture- to be a bit distasteful and irreverent (particularly when you take into consideration that this is humanity's oldest surviving science).

I do hope that my own inclination towards neglecting other aspects of astrology is something I'll outgrow. I sense that the exploration of my own chart/natal astrology generally -achieving more peace/understanding within- might be the key to realizing that desire.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Given your familiarity with fixed stars in particular,
I would love to hear your analysis of their prominence in my chart
(if at all present).
I'm no expert - ours is an astrological learning forum
we are all simultaneously "...teachers..." as well as "...learners..." :smile:
for anyone with the time and inclination to learn:


The Fixed Stars in Natal Astrology

https://www.constellationsofwords.com/the-fixed-stars-in-natal-astrology/


The Bright Beams Of The Fixed Stars In Your Astrological Chart

https://www.llewellyn.com/journal/article/1362


.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I have been inclined to look at my Venus in Libra in such a light, but had honestly completely neglected my Aquarian Uranus towards that same end (in trying to stick to traditional astrology, I've largely neglected the outer band of planets in my studies). Upon further inspection, Uranus actually seems quite pronounced in my chart as a whole. Does that seem like an accurate assessment to you? As for Libra Venus its significance -although ostensibly high- does seem to be muted by a number of other chart placements from what I've heard from others (and this is seemingly backed up by life experience as well).

I am somewhat (!) ambidextrous with modern and traditional astrology. When in doubt, I'd look at both. It is hard to say what is "accurate" for you without knowing anything about you personally.

I don't know what are your views of Venus. In the 7th house, it is an indicator of a committed relationship being very important to you, whether you are in one at any given moment or not. Modernly Venus is in an intercepted sign, which can hamper its full and normal expression.

But keep in mind that Venus also rules the fine and performing arts, luxuries, esthetics, and young women in general. The Saturn-Venus opposition may make you feel that a good relationship (Venus) is not possible for you due to personal limations (Saturn,) but a good way to combine these two planets is through self-discipline, patience, and perseverance. Chiron in the 7th suggests your share of heart-break. If so, join the club.

With your NN conjunct Venus, your personal growth requires you to develop one or more traits associated with Venus.

Re: Mars/Mercury, are you suggesting that because there is a swap in domiciles here that these two otherwise (to my knowledge) conflicting planets are more likely to be harmonious with one another? I've never really looked into domicile swapping, but it seems very interesting (particularly if you see it as being an important aspect).

Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception. These two planets have no inborn conflict. I can think of all kinds of ways they could combine advantageously. Mercury rules the hands, along with one's mental abilities. Mars rules cutting instruments. This would be a great aspect for a surgeon.

What does Saturn mean for my bodily vitality? And why do you suppose modern astrology wouldn't take Saturn/Jupiter being in fall as seriously as it would other planets? Do you know how these differences in conception evolved? Intuitively, planetary dignities do seem to matter to me (interested in being proven wrong, however).

Saturn in the first can limit your vitality, but it has other kinds of expressions. Saturn rules the bones and teeth. It can confer troubles with them, such as crooked teeth or poor posture. Saturn tends to reduce or limit what it touches, so sometimes people with Saturn in the first are physically small-- but not always. With Saturn in Aries and Pisces rising, you may not feel very courageous.

Traditional astrology is all about dignities and debilities, as with this chart: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html . Modern astrology tends to take a more optimistic view of human potential, and to focus on aspects.

You can choose either modern or traditional (or Vedic, for that matter.) These days I am a bit of a hybrid.

I have Jupiter in Capricorn in the 4th and I haven't found it to be a huge problem. It manifests as a love of old books, antiques, old houses, and certain brances of history. Possibly a lot of luck and good fortune has passed me by, but I think my life turned out OK, anyway.

I'm a bit confused with how Neptune and/or Jupiter become rulers of the first house, when Saturn is there. With regards to chart rulership, is that not determined by the degree to which certain planets are aspected by others in ones chart? I've only recently started paying any attention to overall planetary prominence, and it seems as though Uranus, Pluto, and my Sun stand out the most in mine (in that order).

One of the most important (and sometimes overlooked) techniques in astrology is to work with house cusp rulers. With Pisces rising, you can choose Jupiter, Neptune, or both. Then looking at where these planets are in the chart and what they are doing will give you a lot of information about the nature of your first house. "The house over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands."

A planet in its own sign is a dispositor, meaning if you tour around the chart, looking for which planet rules which other planets, you generally wind up with domiciled planets having the final say. With planets in mutual reception, you get a 2-way dispositorship going.

And then a chart can change a lot depending upon which house system you use. Switch to whole signs houses, and Saturn moves to your second house.
The free charts section at Astrodienst www.astro.com has a couple dozen different house options. You might enjoy playing around with them.

A planet with a lot of aspects is a chart focalizer but it's not necessarily Numero Uno in your horoscope. If you're interested in identifying your strongest planet, check out the "almuten" and "lord of the geniture" in the Skyscript glossary.

OK, so your Jupiter falls in Capricorn but it traditionally rules your ascendant. It rules your MC and appears in the angula 10th house. It closely sextiles your sun. Jupiter is in its own terms and sect (since you have a day chart.) So it's not doing too badly.

I did know that about the constellations, but had forgotten :lol:. I suppose that would mean Regulus's having shifted into the constellation Virgo only has predictive relevancy in the sidereal tradition?

Check out Constellation of Words for a gold mine on fixed stars, including their current degrees in signs. https://www.constellationsofwords.com/ Regulus was at 29 Leo in 1900 and 0 Virgo in 2000.

I don't know how private I am. I'm extremely prideful to the point where I will very rarely share with my closest of friends/family the depths of my suffering/seek out help (a predisposition that I sometimes feel will be the death of me), but conversely I am also very much open in another sense (something I've chalked up to my scorpio placements being offset by leo moon/libra venus). This fluctuation seems even more pronounced between my seeking-out/basking-in the limelight, while also finding extended periods of this to be incredibly draining and not reconcilable with my sense of true-self.

Thank you for your reply! Much to chew on.

Hey, no problem!

Keep in mind that the astrological human being is more like a committee or extended family of planets with different natures and goals. There are no unified human beings.
 
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