ASTROLOGY of the 2016 US elections
- Thread starter waybread
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waybread
Well-known member
Thanks, Bob.
This is fascinating. I see you're involved in the birth time discussion over at Skyscript. I've interacted a bit there with "Therese" who prefers the 8:00 pm birth time. I'm still sticking to 8:02 am despite the Marc Penfield claim that he got the Illinois Office of Vital Records to validate 2:18. I But Therese noted that the angles were equally activated, either way: just different angles.
I also think about Geoffrey Cornelius's claim that a chart can be radical without have the accurate time.
For me, one clincher was thinking that if someone is going to be the next POTUS or the unsuccessful major candidate for POTUS, that should show up with something happening on the MC or in relation to the 10th house of public image. Solar arc Uranus conjuncted Clinton's 8:02 MC and squared Trump's MC (Rodden AA) from the November election to the January inauguration.
If another time is accurate, shouldn't we expect at least some MC/10th house activity of major importance?
This is fascinating. I see you're involved in the birth time discussion over at Skyscript. I've interacted a bit there with "Therese" who prefers the 8:00 pm birth time. I'm still sticking to 8:02 am despite the Marc Penfield claim that he got the Illinois Office of Vital Records to validate 2:18. I But Therese noted that the angles were equally activated, either way: just different angles.
I also think about Geoffrey Cornelius's claim that a chart can be radical without have the accurate time.
For me, one clincher was thinking that if someone is going to be the next POTUS or the unsuccessful major candidate for POTUS, that should show up with something happening on the MC or in relation to the 10th house of public image. Solar arc Uranus conjuncted Clinton's 8:02 MC and squared Trump's MC (Rodden AA) from the November election to the January inauguration.
If another time is accurate, shouldn't we expect at least some MC/10th house activity of major importance?
unique_astrology
Well-known member
Attached are the charts for Hillary's progressed natal to 9 pm, EST, (her campaign HQ) and the progression for myself using my favorite toy (progressed anlunar).
Hill's is easy - Jup on the MC trined by Pluto.
Mine has MC at 278°12' using midnight of Nov 8th (277°06' if I used 10 pm) with the midpoint of progressed natal Mercury/Sun on the ASC at 277°00', progressed natal Mercury/Venus at 277°09', return Jupiter on the DESC at 277°45' along with progressed natal Moon there at 277°13'. Planetary positions would not change perceptibly in the 2 hours difference.
And progressed natal Sun and Venus and return Uranus to be swept by the ASC in a few hours to be experienced should I decide to stay up until later.
Is my chart indicative of my happiness that Trump was not elected or that I charmed Hills into revealing her time of birth to me?
Hill's is easy - Jup on the MC trined by Pluto.
Mine has MC at 278°12' using midnight of Nov 8th (277°06' if I used 10 pm) with the midpoint of progressed natal Mercury/Sun on the ASC at 277°00', progressed natal Mercury/Venus at 277°09', return Jupiter on the DESC at 277°45' along with progressed natal Moon there at 277°13'. Planetary positions would not change perceptibly in the 2 hours difference.
And progressed natal Sun and Venus and return Uranus to be swept by the ASC in a few hours to be experienced should I decide to stay up until later.
Is my chart indicative of my happiness that Trump was not elected or that I charmed Hills into revealing her time of birth to me?
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waybread
Well-known member
LOL.
I don't get that Clinton knows or much cares about her birth time. You would have to get her to contact the Illinois Office of Vital records to obtain her long-form birth certificate, and then convince her to release it publicly. Despite the Marc Penfield caper, his 2:18 TOB is still Rodden DD.
But I so hope you're right.
I don't get that Clinton knows or much cares about her birth time. You would have to get her to contact the Illinois Office of Vital records to obtain her long-form birth certificate, and then convince her to release it publicly. Despite the Marc Penfield caper, his 2:18 TOB is still Rodden DD.
But I so hope you're right.
unique_astrology
Well-known member
Trump's demi-anlunar progressed to Oct 7th at 5 PM, EDT in New York City. MC was at 310°37'.
Progressed natal Saturn/Pluto midpoint at 310°42' is on the IC. Oh, happy days!
Breaking: Exclusive Video of Tonight's Meeting at the RNC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512478536
__________________
Progressed natal Saturn/Pluto midpoint at 310°42' is on the IC. Oh, happy days!
Breaking: Exclusive Video of Tonight's Meeting at the RNC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512478536
__________________
unique_astrology
Well-known member
Not good for Trump on election night:
Trump's natal Saturn is at 115°43'. His natal Sun/Mars midpoint is at 115°42'. His secondary progressed Moon at 9 pm, EST, on Nov 8, 2016, will be at 115°15'.
His quotidian progressed solar return (QPSR) precession corrected version, in New York City (birthplace) will have 171°42' on the MC on election night. Return Mars/Saturn midpoint rises at 170°28.
Progressing Trump's announcement chart solar return lunar return (anlunar) to 9 pm in NYC on election night has it with a 239°07' MC. In a 6 hour span from about 6 pm to midnight it will experience transit Sun/Saturn midpoint on the MC, return Neptune//Pluto midpoint on the ASC, and progressed natal Saturn/Pluto midpoint on the Desc. Not a winning combination in the bunch.
Trump's natal Saturn is at 115°43'. His natal Sun/Mars midpoint is at 115°42'. His secondary progressed Moon at 9 pm, EST, on Nov 8, 2016, will be at 115°15'.
His quotidian progressed solar return (QPSR) precession corrected version, in New York City (birthplace) will have 171°42' on the MC on election night. Return Mars/Saturn midpoint rises at 170°28.
Progressing Trump's announcement chart solar return lunar return (anlunar) to 9 pm in NYC on election night has it with a 239°07' MC. In a 6 hour span from about 6 pm to midnight it will experience transit Sun/Saturn midpoint on the MC, return Neptune//Pluto midpoint on the ASC, and progressed natal Saturn/Pluto midpoint on the Desc. Not a winning combination in the bunch.
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waybread
Well-known member
Thanks, Bob-- let's hope you're right.
Yesterday's scandal involving the tape release of Trump's sexual predator remarks in 2005 happened with transiting Chiron squaring his sun-moon opposition, and transiting sun conjunct his natal Chiron. Eris-Uranus squared his natal Saturn-Venus. I don't think next week will go better, as I belief the full moon will hit some of his personal planets.
Yesterday's scandal involving the tape release of Trump's sexual predator remarks in 2005 happened with transiting Chiron squaring his sun-moon opposition, and transiting sun conjunct his natal Chiron. Eris-Uranus squared his natal Saturn-Venus. I don't think next week will go better, as I belief the full moon will hit some of his personal planets.
Osamenor
Staff member
I'd been wondering when his star was going to fall.
I've read several astrological predictions that said things were going to start going downhill for Trump sometime between mid August and mid September. But it didn't look like the tide was really turning until after that first debate.
Any idea why astrologers would've predicted a Trump slide between mid August and mid September? What might they have been seeing that didn't actually show up until late September/early October?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Trump has confirmed his time of birth
But
it is not possible to make reliable predictions regarding HRC
Without a confirmed time of birth
interestingly
now that it is publicly known
that Hillary admits she is:
'....out of touch with the middle class
needs Wall Street Funding
and
is aware about security concerns about blackberries...' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkP0-CUWBcU
this is obviously having an impact on HRC
interesting to have any theories from astrologers on how
We can also just look at the 11th houses (support) and the 11th lords (gains, winning). Mercury is 11th lord for both DJT and HRC.
In DJT's case Mercury is currently in the 3rd house which would be the 4th from the 11th and also the 4th from his natal Mercury, aka a square aspect which indicates obstacles. But from October 21 until election day Mercury will be in his 4th house which would be the 5th from the 11th and also the 5th from his natal Mercury, aka a trine aspect which indicates smooth sailing.
In HRC's case Mercury is currently in the 11th house which would be the 1st from the 11th and also the 12th from her natal Mercury, aka semi-sextile aspect which indicates severe trouble. And from October 21 until election day Mercury will be in the 2nd from the 11th and also in the 1st from her natal Mercury, aka conjunction which would indicates tension but also a period of reorientation or new beginning.
So both go thru a period of trouble in terms of support right now. DJT losing support of GOP officials due to leaked recordings and HRC probably losing Sanders supporters once and for all due to leaked speech transcripts. Notice how both events are also Mercury related events!
If DJT loses endorsements from GOP officials that probably won't mean any significant loss of support from regular voters. But if HRC loses support from Sanders supporters that means half of registered Democrats are not going to vote for her (aka about 15% of all registered voters). Which means HRC is suffering the bigger and more devastating loss right now.
(analysis based on sidereal charts)
Reuters:
Sanders supporters seethe over Clinton's leaked remarks to Wall St.
Evangelical leaders stick with Trump, focus on defeating Clinton
In DJT's case Mercury is currently in the 3rd house which would be the 4th from the 11th and also the 4th from his natal Mercury, aka a square aspect which indicates obstacles. But from October 21 until election day Mercury will be in his 4th house which would be the 5th from the 11th and also the 5th from his natal Mercury, aka a trine aspect which indicates smooth sailing.
In HRC's case Mercury is currently in the 11th house which would be the 1st from the 11th and also the 12th from her natal Mercury, aka semi-sextile aspect which indicates severe trouble. And from October 21 until election day Mercury will be in the 2nd from the 11th and also in the 1st from her natal Mercury, aka conjunction which would indicates tension but also a period of reorientation or new beginning.
So both go thru a period of trouble in terms of support right now. DJT losing support of GOP officials due to leaked recordings and HRC probably losing Sanders supporters once and for all due to leaked speech transcripts. Notice how both events are also Mercury related events!
If DJT loses endorsements from GOP officials that probably won't mean any significant loss of support from regular voters. But if HRC loses support from Sanders supporters that means half of registered Democrats are not going to vote for her (aka about 15% of all registered voters). Which means HRC is suffering the bigger and more devastating loss right now.
(analysis based on sidereal charts)
Reuters:
Sanders supporters seethe over Clinton's leaked remarks to Wall St.
Evangelical leaders stick with Trump, focus on defeating Clinton
waybread
Well-known member
Osamenor, there is a truism in modern astrology of the more spiritual variety, that we cannot really tell from looking at a "blind" chart of the moment of a person's birth whether they will live it out in a more crass material way or in a more "evolved" way, or somewhere in between.
When I first saw HRC's chart, I was shocked at those hard Leo-Scorpio squares. Had I not known this was her chart, I would have thought that such a woman would have enormous, debilitating psychological stress in her life. These squares remain independently of her birth time; but if it is 8:02 am, as many of us believe, then her Scorpio ascendant is in the mix, as well.
Yet a couple of times when I read charts for older people with big Mars squares and suggested they had strong tempers, they responded with, "I used to be that way when I was young, but I had to learn at a young age to control my temper." Clinton's self-control is legendary-- and the alt-right attacks to the contrary have been factually discredited.
Regardless of what people think of Clinton as a human being or candidate, I would place her at the mixed or more evolved end of the spectrum of lower-order to higher-order chart manifestation, in part because her chart is so difficult to begin with. She's also faced harsh media scrutiny her entire adult life.
Clinton was raised a Methodist, and remains active in her faith-- something she doesn't publicize. I think this gives her some emotional advantages to weather the difficult transits. When she quoted the following attributed to John Wesley, her chart fell into place for me better:
"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can"
For people who doubt that she's done so, I point to this article about the various honours and awards she's received during her lifetime:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honors_received_by_Hillary_Clinton
This doesn't mean people have to vote for her, but it is a way of looking at her horoscope beyond the alt-right trash-talk about Clinton.
Donald Trump, in contrast, has an easier-looking chart; but people who have studied him or know him personally have commented that he's never really had to deal seriously with any kind of authority-- other than his late father's or his own. It seems very important for Trump to be "king of the mountain"-- always the most alpha of the alpha males. He loves the role of the tycoon surrounded by sycophants whom he can order around and fire at will. He was born into a very wealthy family and has remained in that stratum of society.
Despite some financial reversals in his past, I don't think anyone, even his staunch supporters, would place Trump high on the spiritual "evolution" scale.
Consequently, if someone lives his horoscope through the more material manifestations, I think he's more likely to get blindsided by hard transits. He's not had to build up a repertory of temperate emotional and verbal responses to press criticism, because he was so used to lackeys falling into place around him.
With his natal sun-Uranus NN opposite moon-SN, when Trump feels challenged, he reverts back into his "hit them back harder" trope; which might have worked OK for him as a real estate developer. But it doesn't help him with a critical press, Democrats, or sectors of the public.
Uranus-Eris finally caught up with Trump's Saturn-Venus. (Venus ruling women.)
For some Republicans who held their noses to support Trump, they reached a tipping point. So we might also consider what is going on with the country more generally.
When I first saw HRC's chart, I was shocked at those hard Leo-Scorpio squares. Had I not known this was her chart, I would have thought that such a woman would have enormous, debilitating psychological stress in her life. These squares remain independently of her birth time; but if it is 8:02 am, as many of us believe, then her Scorpio ascendant is in the mix, as well.
Yet a couple of times when I read charts for older people with big Mars squares and suggested they had strong tempers, they responded with, "I used to be that way when I was young, but I had to learn at a young age to control my temper." Clinton's self-control is legendary-- and the alt-right attacks to the contrary have been factually discredited.
Regardless of what people think of Clinton as a human being or candidate, I would place her at the mixed or more evolved end of the spectrum of lower-order to higher-order chart manifestation, in part because her chart is so difficult to begin with. She's also faced harsh media scrutiny her entire adult life.
Clinton was raised a Methodist, and remains active in her faith-- something she doesn't publicize. I think this gives her some emotional advantages to weather the difficult transits. When she quoted the following attributed to John Wesley, her chart fell into place for me better:
"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can"
For people who doubt that she's done so, I point to this article about the various honours and awards she's received during her lifetime:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honors_received_by_Hillary_Clinton
This doesn't mean people have to vote for her, but it is a way of looking at her horoscope beyond the alt-right trash-talk about Clinton.
Donald Trump, in contrast, has an easier-looking chart; but people who have studied him or know him personally have commented that he's never really had to deal seriously with any kind of authority-- other than his late father's or his own. It seems very important for Trump to be "king of the mountain"-- always the most alpha of the alpha males. He loves the role of the tycoon surrounded by sycophants whom he can order around and fire at will. He was born into a very wealthy family and has remained in that stratum of society.
Despite some financial reversals in his past, I don't think anyone, even his staunch supporters, would place Trump high on the spiritual "evolution" scale.
Consequently, if someone lives his horoscope through the more material manifestations, I think he's more likely to get blindsided by hard transits. He's not had to build up a repertory of temperate emotional and verbal responses to press criticism, because he was so used to lackeys falling into place around him.
With his natal sun-Uranus NN opposite moon-SN, when Trump feels challenged, he reverts back into his "hit them back harder" trope; which might have worked OK for him as a real estate developer. But it doesn't help him with a critical press, Democrats, or sectors of the public.
Uranus-Eris finally caught up with Trump's Saturn-Venus. (Venus ruling women.)
For some Republicans who held their noses to support Trump, they reached a tipping point. So we might also consider what is going on with the country more generally.
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waybread
Well-known member
muchacho, I appreciate your subtle analysis. I'm all for it. However, see what you think of my above analysis, as to whether people manifest their charts, at the "bestial, terestrial, or celestial" level.
I think Clinton's got the practical life experience to weather difficult actual and astrological events better than Trump. Moreover, as of October 7, a lot of Republican office-holders and leaders announced they could not vote for or endorse Trump, based on his recently released predatory remarks about women, where he boasted about sexual assault (the legal definition of "groping".) These remarks won't affect Trump's loyal blue-collar fan base, but neither will they help him with other voting blocs, like suburban Republican women.
With Clinton, I don't think the hard-core Sanders supporters planned to vote for her, anyway. I think Clinton's strategy has been more to woo (1) visible minorities, (2) moderate Republicans, (3) her core Democratic base. I cannot see a lot of millennial women voting for Trump now. Can you?
Moreover, astrologers have yet to demonstrate that a difficult period in someone's life means that s/he wins or loses the election.
I think Clinton's got the practical life experience to weather difficult actual and astrological events better than Trump. Moreover, as of October 7, a lot of Republican office-holders and leaders announced they could not vote for or endorse Trump, based on his recently released predatory remarks about women, where he boasted about sexual assault (the legal definition of "groping".) These remarks won't affect Trump's loyal blue-collar fan base, but neither will they help him with other voting blocs, like suburban Republican women.
With Clinton, I don't think the hard-core Sanders supporters planned to vote for her, anyway. I think Clinton's strategy has been more to woo (1) visible minorities, (2) moderate Republicans, (3) her core Democratic base. I cannot see a lot of millennial women voting for Trump now. Can you?
Moreover, astrologers have yet to demonstrate that a difficult period in someone's life means that s/he wins or loses the election.
Osamenor
Staff member
Interesting, and this matches a discussion I had with some other astrology folks IRL. Someone described this whole election as "very Marsy" and pointed out that all of the top candidates--Clinton, Trump, and Sanders--have very strong Mars. Clinton is a very mature Mars person, while Trump is the eptiome of an immature Mars.
However, my question back there was about timing. I saw several predictions that Trump would experience a downfall of some sort sometime between the last half of August and mid September. What transits might have made astrologers say it would happen then, when his really big blunders didn't happen until the last couple of weeks?
unique_astrology
Well-known member
Here are my findings and thoughts about them regarding tonight's debate:
I think that Trump will do worse in the 2nd debate than he did in the first. . . . I think he will fall back on what he knows, what he is well practiced at – be the bully supreme, attack so viciously that his opponent is overwhelmed. He may be rebuked for being too much of an interloper when she is speaking. When the early results are in he will know he is worse off than he was before.
My favorite toy (his progressed anlunar) has transit Saturn exactly on the Desc and transit Neptune exactly on the Zenith at the beginning of the debate.
That same chart progressed to about 8 am the next morning has his natal Sun on the Asc and his natal Moon on the Desc with return Mars/Saturn midpoint there also as it was on his natal Moon and opposite his natal Sun when the lunar return began on October 1st before his most famous video surfaced. The bad news is there for all to see and knocks him for a loop. If he leaves St Louis, flying East soon after the debate, the angles will move forward to the Sun, Moon, Mars/Saturn midpoint configuration during the flight.
I do not think Hillary will be fazed by Trump’s behavior but will use it against him, having sized him up during the first debate, the end result being that he is made to look even more foolish than he would without her.
I think that Trump will do worse in the 2nd debate than he did in the first. . . . I think he will fall back on what he knows, what he is well practiced at – be the bully supreme, attack so viciously that his opponent is overwhelmed. He may be rebuked for being too much of an interloper when she is speaking. When the early results are in he will know he is worse off than he was before.
My favorite toy (his progressed anlunar) has transit Saturn exactly on the Desc and transit Neptune exactly on the Zenith at the beginning of the debate.
That same chart progressed to about 8 am the next morning has his natal Sun on the Asc and his natal Moon on the Desc with return Mars/Saturn midpoint there also as it was on his natal Moon and opposite his natal Sun when the lunar return began on October 1st before his most famous video surfaced. The bad news is there for all to see and knocks him for a loop. If he leaves St Louis, flying East soon after the debate, the angles will move forward to the Sun, Moon, Mars/Saturn midpoint configuration during the flight.
I do not think Hillary will be fazed by Trump’s behavior but will use it against him, having sized him up during the first debate, the end result being that he is made to look even more foolish than he would without her.
waybread
Well-known member
Osamenor,I'd have to read their rationales.
I did notice that some of Trump's bigger "episodes" such as criticizing the gold star Khan family, occurred during a hard Mars transit. I think there was another one around this time a few weeks ago, and I thought he might say something else nasty then that would get him in trouble. But not really. I think it was around then that Trump changed his top management team, and fired Paul Manafort and replaced him with Kellyanne Conway, so there may have been some internal martial events within his inner circle.
A lot depends upon how well someone manages his or her natal planets. If s/he does a good job of managing natal Mars, then Mars transits probably won't create the upsets that they would with a poorly managed natal Mars.
Bob, I'll be glued to the TV-- we'll check back in on your predictions.
I did notice that some of Trump's bigger "episodes" such as criticizing the gold star Khan family, occurred during a hard Mars transit. I think there was another one around this time a few weeks ago, and I thought he might say something else nasty then that would get him in trouble. But not really. I think it was around then that Trump changed his top management team, and fired Paul Manafort and replaced him with Kellyanne Conway, so there may have been some internal martial events within his inner circle.
A lot depends upon how well someone manages his or her natal planets. If s/he does a good job of managing natal Mars, then Mars transits probably won't create the upsets that they would with a poorly managed natal Mars.
Bob, I'll be glued to the TV-- we'll check back in on your predictions.
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
Trump has Mars in Leo which is ascendant and from what I know, his Gemini sun is exalted in the first house. Hillary has Mars in Leo and Gemini ascendant according to one of two alleged natal charts (if she's born in 8pm, oct 26, 1947, she may well be a Gemini rising).
Osamenor
Staff member
I'm looking at Trump's chart... a few weeks ago, Mars trined his natal Mars as it transited his moon and opposed his sun. Maybe the sun opposition was the hard transit. Right now, Mars is in opposition to his natal Mercury.
Makes sense: Trump's mouth was what got him in trouble all along.
aquarius7000
Well-known member
HRC's TOB 8:02 am
Hi,
One of the tests I do when double checking the Asc, is to see how the various house rulers are placed. This calls for traditional Astrology and to see whether the house rulers are dignified/ exalted, or debilitated/fallen, or even neutrally placed. Then compare these with their actual life situations. So, for e.g., Hillary's 4th house proves: "The daughter and first-born child of a textile company owner, she was raised in an advantaged environment with a good education." (Wikipedia). Per the 8:02 am, Hillary's 4th house is in Pisces, ruler Jupiter, which is in Sagittarius, is thus dignified. I do not have the time give more such examples, but I do think that 8:02 am seems about correct to me.
Hi,
One of the tests I do when double checking the Asc, is to see how the various house rulers are placed. This calls for traditional Astrology and to see whether the house rulers are dignified/ exalted, or debilitated/fallen, or even neutrally placed. Then compare these with their actual life situations. So, for e.g., Hillary's 4th house proves: "The daughter and first-born child of a textile company owner, she was raised in an advantaged environment with a good education." (Wikipedia). Per the 8:02 am, Hillary's 4th house is in Pisces, ruler Jupiter, which is in Sagittarius, is thus dignified. I do not have the time give more such examples, but I do think that 8:02 am seems about correct to me.
Osamenor
Staff member
I predicted all that without using astrology. Especially since this debate's a town hall. Clinton's handled those before. Trump hasn't. Now that the debate's on, it's obvious.
In short, he's getting exposed.