The Lunar Mansions

I wonder is there any consensus among astrologers about positions of the lunar mansions?

For instance, old texts place Al Sharatain @ 0 Aries, Robson (in Electional Astrology, 1937) places it @ 19 ARI 11, website constellationsofwords places it @ 04 TAU 03 (for year 2007) on account of the fixed star Sheratan which is @ 04 TAU 10 today in year 2014.

1) There is too much difference between these two positions (Robson and website) since fixed stars move approximately 1 degree in 72 years

2) Placement of the mansions given by constellationsofwords doesn't follow the rule that each mansion is 12 deg. 51 min. in extent given by Robson and ancient authors

Apparently, there is much confusion about this. Does anyone uses lunar mansions and what is your approach?

Hi Cap.

The first thing to discuss about the lunar mansions is which system are you using? Chinese? Western? Vedic?

The Vedic system has 27 mansions, the Western and Chinese have 28. This means there are 13° 20' between each mansion in Vedic astrology and 12°51' some odd seconds in the Western and Chinese systems. This may be the cause for the descripency in Constellation of Words. I haven't looked so I am not sure.

If using the Western system, there are, again, three versions to pick from. There is the Tropical measurements which recon all mansions from the Vernal Equinox point (Al Sharatan begins at 0°). There is the sidereal version which precesses them (Al Sharatan is now somewhere in Pisces). Then there is the constellational version which attempts to anchor them to their locator star.

Which one you use is mostly going to depend on the philosophy you want to go with. It's clear that the mansions began as observational astronomy, but then were attached to the tropical zodiac by Arabic authors. The Picatrix states that the lunar mansion are a non-precessing, Ninth Sphere phenomenon, which is really all I needed to hear about that to come to my conclusion (the lunar mansions begin at the Vernal Equinox point for the same reason Aries does, keeping the solar and lunar zodiacs in sync).

The sidereal system precesses them to keep them more in line with their actual indicator star, (this is the system that Ben Dykes advocates), but it is open to the same attacks as the sidereal zodiac itself is.

Finally, the constellational system attempts to keep true to the original practices of the mansions by completely missing the point. If the lunar mansions are based on the distance the Moon travels in a day, why are some locator stars only 6° of longitude apart?

Clearly my vote is for the tropical system, it saves a lot of headache of trying to calculate mansions, they are always where they are supposed to be. However, Janus does calculate Al Sharatan as beginning somewhere around 25°21' Aries. It calculates the sidereal mansions and there does not seem to be an option to change that. Much to my dismay.

Hope any of this helped.

If one is interested in making a study of the Lunar Mansions, I would recommend the following sources:

-if one wishes to investigate the Chinese Lunar Mansions: Derek Walter's "Chinese Astrology" and his "Chinese Astrology Bible"

-if one wishes to investigate the "Arabic Mansions" (the Lunar Mansions of the West): Warnock's "Mansions of the Moon" (which also contains an ephemeris of the uneven sidereal asterisms, should one be interested in them over the more traditionally followed "fixed" Mansions connected with the tropical zodiac of signs)

-I cannot be as succinct for the Nakshatras (jyotish "lunar mansions") since nakshatras are an integral component of Vedic astrology, and are mentioned in pretty much every Vedic astrrology textbook.
Historically, 27 asterisms were described in the Rg Veda (c1700BC); 28 asterisms were described in the Atharva Veda (c1100 BC)-mainstream (Parasara) jyotish uses the 27 asterism system for most purposes (such as for the assigning of "time lords", called "dashas), however, 28 asterisms are used in various specialzed computations (such as in jyotish horary, called "prashna"), and in various "chakra" techniques found in Vedic astrology (the 28th jyotish asterism-"Abhijit" consists of the single star, Vega, the 2nd brightest star in the Northern Hemisphere, once the Pole Star-which it will be again thousands of years hence; interesting that Vega is not connected with the 28 Mansion system of the "arabs", nor with the 28 Mansion system of China)

Thanks Kaiousei! Very helpful introductory! Yes, I was referring mostly to Western/Arabic lunar mansions, although other systems, especially jyotish nakshatras are interesting also.

As I dwell deeper into this interesting subject I can see what you mean:

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Which one you use is mostly going to depend on the philosophy you want to go with. It's clear that the mansions began as observational astronomy, but then were attached to the tropical zodiac by Arabic authors. The Picatrix states that the lunar mansion are a non-precessing, Ninth Sphere phenomenon, which is really all I needed to hear about that to come to my conclusion (the lunar mansions begin at the Vernal Equinox point for the same reason Aries does, keeping the solar and lunar zodiacs in sync).

Clearly my vote is for the tropical system...

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Indeed, this approach is upmost in sync with the spirit of tropical astrology.

For now, I have few more questions:

In some references there are planetary rulers assigned to every mansion.

Is there any special practical significance to this (e.g. in election chart)?

Planetary sequence is the same as that of planetary day rulerships (Sun/Moon/Mars/Mercury/Jupiter/Venus/Saturn). Does this mean correlation between particular mansions and days in a week?

dr. farr said:

If one is interested in making a study of the Lunar Mansions, I would recommend the following sources:

-if one wishes to investigate the Chinese Lunar Mansions: Derek Walter's "Chinese Astrology" and his "Chinese Astrology Bible"

-if one wishes to investigate the "Arabic Mansions" (the Lunar Mansions of the West): Warnock's "Mansions of the Moon" (which also contains an ephemeris of the uneven sidereal asterisms, should one be interested in them over the more traditionally followed "fixed" Mansions connected with the tropical zodiac of signs)

-I cannot be as succinct for the Nakshatras (jyotish "lunar mansions") since nakshatras are an integral component of Vedic astrology, and are mentioned in pretty much every Vedic astrrology textbook.

Click to expand...

Thanks Dr Farr! Very helpful recommendations!

dr. farr said:

Historically, 27 asterisms were described in the Rg Veda (c1700BC); 28 asterisms were described in the Atharva Veda (c1100 BC)-mainstream (Parasara) jyotish uses the 27 asterism system for most purposes (such as for the assigning of "time lords", called "dashas), however, 28 asterisms are used in various specialzed computations (such as in jyotish horary, called "prashna"), and in various "chakra" techniques found in Vedic astrology...

Click to expand...

In Western/Arabic tradition the main use of the lunar mansions is for the purposes of electional astrology and astrological magick. Were there any attempts in the western tradition to incorporate lunar mansions in the "reversed cousins" of electional astrology: horary and event astrology? (similarly to jyotish prashna)

dr. farr said:

...(the 28th jyotish asterism-"Abhijit" consists of the single star, Vega, the 2nd brightest star in the Northern Hemisphere, once the Pole Star-which it will be again thousands of years hence; interesting that Vega is not connected with the 28 Mansion system of the "arabs", nor with the 28 Mansion system of China)

Click to expand...

Is there any particular reason for this (that you know of)? Fixed star Vega and 28th jyotish asterism "Abhijit" are of great personal interest for me since I have natal Jupiter almost exactly on Vega (0° 03') and it's been the strongest planetary influence in my life up to now...

In some references there are planetary rulers assigned to every mansion.

Is there any special practical significance to this (e.g. in election chart)?

Planetary sequence is the same as that of planetary day rulerships (Sun/Moon/Mars/Mercury/Jupiter/Venus/Saturn). Does this mean correlation between particular mansions and days in a week?

Click to expand...

I was aware that the Chinese system does this, but was not aware that the Western system did this too. May I please have a link to this source?

The Chinese begin their mansions with Spica and it is ruled by Jupiter, but the first mansion in the Western system is ruled by Mercury in the Chinese tradition. Is this the same?

I'm a bit confused about what you're asking about in regard to elections. Are you asking if the ruler of the mansion is important? I have not seen this mentioned before in regard to standard elections as typically we are only focused on the Moon's presence in a mansion (and even this is only a very rudimentary form of electing). However, in magical elections I will regard or mention the mansion ruler in some way.

As for the mansions being related to a day of the week, I'm not completely sure why the rulers of the mansion are listed in that order. For the Chinese mansion system it kind of makes sense since Chinese astrology is generally reckoned from Jupiter (Jupiter's 12 orbit inspired the twelve signs of the Chinese zodiac), but as for our system I am unsure.

dr. farr, do you have any information on this?

Cap said:

Is there any particular reason for this (that you know of)? Fixed star Vega and 28th jyotish asterism "Abhijit" are of great personal interest for me since I have natal Jupiter almost exactly on Vega (0° 03') and it's been the strongest planetary influence in my life up to now...

Click to expand...

It isn't included in Chinese or Western because it is too far from the ecliptic. The Mansions are a lunar zodiac, after all, so the Moon should be able to rest within them.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

I was aware that the Chinese system does this, but was not aware that the Western system did this too. May I please have a link to this source?

Click to expand...

http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/pub/journal/picatrix.html

It is mentioned in some other web sources also. I realize internet is not the best source for learning, just haven't got the time to gather the books yet...

Cap:
-I am not aware of the Mansions having been applied for horary, nor specifically, for event astrology (at least not in any of the literature I am familiar with)
-the exclusion of Vega in the Arabic and (much earlier) Chinese mansion systems I cannot accout for; since the Chinese system is based on the equator, not the ecliptic, Vega (or any star) being beyond the ecliptic path, would not have been an exclusionary criteria
-in Vedic astrology, of course, the nakshatras ARE based on the ecliptic-yet we find the Vega-nakshatra included in the 28 mansion system of the Atharva Veda, and we find it also included at times-for special purposes-even in the mainstream 27 nakshatra system (from Rg Veda times through the present)

I have no idea why this situation regarding Vega/Vega "mansion" exists, except a speculation that the "Vega mansion" represented something special and "out of the ordinary" to the Vedic rishis of ancient times

the exclusion of Vega in the Arabic and (much earlier) Chinese mansion systems I cannot accout for; since the Chinese system is based on the equator, not the ecliptic, Vega (or any star) being beyond the ecliptic path, would not have been an exclusionary criteria

Click to expand...

Ah, you're right. Chinese astrology is equatorial. I'm used to looking at the mansions on star maps where the ecliptic runs through or near to the majority of the mansions. Either way, Vega (or any star) being so far from either line is very clearly the reason why it doesn't participate in a mansion constellation.

And yet it (Vega) is the star of the Vedic 28th nakshatra Abhijit, which was part of the 28 nakshatra system of the Atharva Veda and which continues to be used for special purposes in mainstream jyotish to the present time (eg in prasha-Vedic horary-and in special chakra delineative applications in various predictive directions)...certainly, since jyotish (like Western astrology) is eclpitic centered, the exclusion of stars far from it, would make sense-so (I ask rhetorically) why does Vega/Abhijit "count" for some considerations (horary, chakra applications) and yet not for others??

(Note: I have no answer to my own question)

Here is what David Frawley, the author of the "Astrology of the Seers" says:

The Star Vega or Abhijit

Vedic astrology regards the North Pole as the spiritual pole of the globe from which higher spiritual influences come into the planet. However, the North Pole star does not remain the same throughout the precessional cycle. At the opposite side of the precessional cycle, the point of greatest light, the bright star Vega (alpha Lyra) serves to mark the North Pole. Vega is part of a special constellation which is used in Vedic astrology and which is called Abhijit or “complete victory;” it is ruled by Brahma, the cosmic creative power.

Vedic astrology shows a connection between our sun and the star Vega. Vega may be a controlling star for our Sun, its guide; or perhaps our Sun may revolve around it or with it around some greater center. Vedic astrology looks back to a time some fifteen thousand years ago when Vega was the North Pole star. Apart from the galactic center, Vega may be another important point of light that governs life on Earth.

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http://www.vedanet.com/2012/06/secrets-of-the-yugas-or-world-ages/

Also, in Bhagavad Gita Krishna says: "...among the nakshatras I am Abhijit..."

Evidently, Vega was regarded to be of the highest (spiritual) importance and yet is not even mentioned in other mansion systems...