The Twelfth House

Carris said:

Thank You!

Could you tell us more about how the 12th stellium plays out in your life. What has been your personal experience of the 12th? I have an aunt with a stellium of 4 planets in 12th - and she is very active and social in her community, friends and family - it is almost automatic for her to go out of her way to help out people and think nothing of it. She is one of the most clean hearted people I have seen, completely free from malice - though she does lose her temper suddenly and doesn't suffer fools gladly. She has many close friends and loves to socialize - I don't see any of the seclusion, isolation, institutions or self undoing. She works in retail, is happily married and two wonderful children.

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Hello, Carris,

Well, the 12th house has played out over many periods of my life for a long time, so it might be difficult for me to give a specific answer.

There is the not knowing period before you discover astrology. Then there is the trying to understand it and how it relates to the rest of the chart, that probably is triggered at least by the time of the Saturn return and continuing through the Uranus opposition. The stellium continues to present itself through all the cycles of life and allows greater understanding over time.

Perhaps you might want to pose more specific questions when I get my natal chart posted here soon?

Regarding your Aunt, I would be interested to know the planets and sign of her 12th house stellium and the placement of her Sun, Moon, personal planets, if not in the 12th.

Everybody's 12th house plays out differently, depending upon the composition of the entire natal chart, whether there is a stellium or not. It would be helpful for me to see her birthdata, if it is permitted to share birthdata here on the site, and with the permission of your aunt, of course. That way I could construct and view her chart.

Ilene

RaptInReverie, I will be curious to look over your shoulder on this forum, and see how you interpret charts, and what sorts of principles you apply.

I've been studying astrology for something like 22 years, but I am not a pro, and I still have a lot to learn. Generally in my experience, limited though it is, if someone has a trine, s/he is apt to manifest the positive nature of the planet-pair. If s/he has oppositions or squares, s/he is apt to feel the stressful, more negative nature. Sextiles confer a sense of excitement, so while they are generally non-stressors, sometimes people feel a sense of excitement about lying or dominating other people, &c.

Please keep in mind that most charts are a mix of 2-series and 3-series aspects, so the chances are remote for most of us to simply coast through life on a couple of trines.

The exceptions seem to be:

(a) Sometimes you see older people with charts that look like train wrecks. If you suggest that they probably have a volatile temper, they might say, "I used to be like that when I was young. However, I realized at an early age that I had to control my temper." On the other hand, check out Charles Manson's chart sometime.

(b) There are very, very few "vanilla" charts out there. Whatever trines most people have have, they are balanced out by squares and oppositions. Sort of like in real life. Some good, some bad.

(c) Rarely, when you see a chart with few or no 2-series aspects, the person gets blind-sided by difficult transits that hit when they are young adults. I think their harsh experiences occur because they have not had to build up any youthful resilience in the face of adversity.

(d) A grand trine (a triangle) can indicate people who don't develop their talents in terms of getting that university degree or job-training, because life flows all right even if they sit on the couch. They can get sort of lazy, and then wonder why life passes them by. This is different for people where the grand trine is actually part of a "kite" formation, which links them into an opposition.

(e) Because squares indicate "the itch that won't scratch" you often see them relating to ambitious people's careers, or people's avocations or other passions. A Neptune square can indicate an avid sailor as much as the drug addict.

Anyone who gets into the business of reading charts for a lot of people, whether as a pro or an amateur, has to read charts of placements they don't have personally; and may not even be close to someone who has them. One good thing about an astrology forum, however, is that the threads really reveal a lot about what life feels like to people, with all kinds of horoscopes and life experiences. So good show on the 12th house, Carris!

I have a twelfth house planet, but of course mine isn't yours. My aspects to it aren't yours. My life experience isn't yours. Indeed, thinking that my life experience should map nicely onto your life would be extremely arrogant. Astrology is above all a work of synthesis.

Unfortunately I've stopped saying too much about my chart after several run-ins with forum members trying to get my birth date. As a real privacy wonk with concerns about identity theft, I don't want that to happen.

9
10

12
SATURN 2B
8

1
ASCENDANT
7
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as per your information your chart would have saturn as shown above. my intrepratations would be as follows.
01-no benefic results would accrue, but many malefic results are blocked since saturn is a functional benefic in this situation.

I've attached the chart of Jimmy Carter, former one-term US president. Carter is noteworthy for having been the most visible and successful ex-president in recent times. As president Carter visited foreign leadersall over the world in an attempt to improve global understanding. His Jimmy Carter centre now observes elections all over the world, in addition to his other diplomatic missions.

With a 12th house sun, we see someone identified with causes greater than himself: peace, global understanding, and democracy. It makes only one major aspect, the Pluto square, which indicates a fair bit of ambition (which is indeed how people who know him describe his personality). So here is where an aspect can counter-act some of the house tendencies. There is also a semi-square to Venus-Neptune-NN, indicating a public image and vocation of promoting peace (Venus) in an idealistic way (Neptune) and with a sense of mission (NN.) Venus is the 12th house ruler.

These are widely trined by a domiciled Jupiter. It would be hard to argue that grand trines necessarily discourage people from developing their talents!

Libra is often deeply concerned with fairness, something that comes out with the Libra sun and Libra rising.

Carter is also a deeply religious Christian, another reading of a 12th house sun semi-square Venus-Neptune.

If we go to a whole-sign system, we lose the 12th house sun, which moves into the first house; but we gain a strong domiciled Mercury in Virgo in the 12th. Then Venus Neptune move to the 11th house of hopes and wishes for the future and of organizations.

Waybread,

As bold and assertive as I am about my views (Mars in Gemini), I certainly wouldn’t dare challenge someone with ten times the experience. I am not challenging you. My demeanor is sometimes militant and truculent, but I promise this is unintentional.

I am not an experienced astrologer by any stretch of the imagination--just an occultist with an insatiable curiosity about many different esoteric subjects. I could definitely be wrong about aspects. Perhaps harmonious aspects do always indicate favorable outcomes. In my application of astrology, however, I have seen them produce ill results as well, especially in the case of the Sun, Jupiter, or Venus being essentially dignified and in the first house. This is not to say that all or even most natives which such placements possess selfish, narcissistic, and superficial tendencies, but some definitely do. I feel that certain harmonious aspects can create a sense of pride and entitlement in situations where the native has done nothing to deserve a particular honor or privilege--just my thoughts.

Perhaps it would do this thread a bit of good for us to post our charts. I have no objections to it, and in regards to your privacy, you can always post an anonymous chat void of all your birth information.

P.S - Upon posting this, I noticed your second response above. I have put celebrity charts on the backburner for now. I want to address all of the responses to my previous posts first. So I am not ignoring you or Sandstone's evidence.

a few things i immediately note with jimmy carters chart are the close venus/neptune conjunction on the north node.venus and sun are in mutual reception, while venus is also the ruler of the ascendant.. to me this speaks to the compassionate nature that seeks fairness to all regardless.. how much is 12th house and how much is the strong neptune influence here? using whole-sign house puts mercury as ruler of the 9th and 12th houses.. mercury is especially strong in this chart which might partly explain his focus on 9th and 12th house matters as well as all the other considerations to his chart.. it would be interesting to examine interesting turning points in his life to see what exactly is highlighted via the transits, progs, directions and etc.. at this point with saturn moving over his ascendant headed down into the bottom half of the chart, i would think he will continue to move off the public stage and out of focus..

interesting when he took office as president of the usa jan 20 1977 solar arc midheaven is on his mercury, while sa mercury is conjunct natal moon, ruler of his 10th.. this coincides with transit of jupiter exactly 120 his mercury, while t mercury is stationary direct squaring exactly onto his sun..

raptinreverie

the difficulty with looking at aspects, soft or hard is that many are going on at the same time which makes it always more of a challenge to define just what the ingredient is that is most at work.. i think the general idea of hard aspects being more challenging while soft ones representing an easier time has some truth to it.. however, i could imagine where a trine might coincide with difficulties, but i would be looking somewhere else in the chart for those difficulties.. another thought is that 2 planets that don't seem to connect well in a chart will have difficulties any time they do connect via a hard or soft aspect.. the reverse would be true as well - 2 planets that appear to work well together can work well regardless of the aspect type.. i tend to see the possibilities in everything though which might drive others crazy.

no 2 astrologers are going to see astrology working the same way... we might have a number of ideas in common, but not all of them.. i think the idea that hard aspects tend to come out into the world in some concrete manner, verses soft aspects that may only indicate a passing energy experienced not directly thru a specific event, is a popularly held idea..

Carris said:

Yes - Undoing is an excellent thing. It causes disenchantment with this gross, dense, physical earthly dimension - you begin to get a desperate desire to leave this horrible plane and go back home forever.

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Hahaha! One would think! Not true though (at least not conclusively). As Mars has been retrograde in my 12th for what feels like for ages. I have become less enchanted with the ethereal and spiritual and more enchanted with the physical and 'real.'

To be fair, I have simultaneously had Pluto squaring my natal Saturn/Jupiter Conjunction in Libra (1st house) and conjunct my IC. It is now also 4 degrees from an exact conjunction with my Capricorn sun as well so I'm not 100% what's to 'blame.'

sandstone said:

president obama has the planets saturn and jupiter located in the 12th house with saturn the ruler of the 12th and 1st using traditional rulerships. mars, the ruler of his midheaven aspects saturn directly and saturn forms a fairly close sextile to the midheaven as well. saturn is in the sign capricorn, a place where saturn is said to work well and in the 12th it is said to be in it's house of joy. it is occidental to the sun which suggests less strength based on planetary phase.. i am not sure how many would view obama at this point, but i think a life of service to the public sphere thru politics is a good way to quickly describe it. going by whole-sign houses jupiter would be considered more 1st house in nature which is in keeping with my thought of jupiter being associated with politics in general..

have the 12th house planets in obama's chart been a blessing or a curse? maybe it isn't a fair question to ask.. is politics his undoing? i doubt it.. i think it is more his calling. saturn is ruler of his ascendant and placed in the 12th house in capricorn. his wife michelle has sun conjunct obamas 12th house saturn. we see a mix of what i was talking about upstream- the sun and saturn polarity which i described as representing a type of strength and weakness regardless of sign or house position, which can flip either way depending on the maturity of the people involved.. one sees these sun/saturn contacts in long term relationships quite often. here it is placed in obama's 12th house. michelles saturn is conjunct his ascendant and widely opposite his leo sun as well..

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I want to say 'Bingo!' but I feel that is incomplete so I shall comment later.

Sandstone,

At last, my languid response to your #201 post!

Honestly, I am still scratching my head after reading it. I have no idea where you stand on this.

There are disadvantages to utilizing notorious figures as specimen for our astrological analyses. We are not privy to the private lives of such personages. What we perceive about them is what the media has portrayed. Even with news reports and interviews, we are rarely informed enough to make sense of their affairs.

Anyhow, I don‘t think either of your examples have much to do with the twelfth house. Bernie Madoff was a criminal who was prosecuted and convicted of a multi-billion dollar ponzi scheme--the case garnered public attention. Dominique Strauss-Kahn was caught up in a public sex scandal. Interestingly enough, both men have Mars in the tenth house squaring their ascendants and Jupiter. Neither men have prominent twelfth houses. Neither of their twelfth house lords are significantly afflicted either; in fact, Madoff’s twelfth house lord is in its Joy and only makes harmonious aspects: two conjunctions, two trines, and a quintile (one conjunction, one trine, and one quintile without the outers).

As for the Sun/Saturn issue, “strength” and “weakness” are qualities or conditions that something is in. They are not intrinsic meanings behind any of the planets. When you break the planets down to their base definitions, the Sun essentially represents one’s state of “being” or consciousness. Saturn essentially represents limitation and structure. From these rudiments are all the subsequent qualities and attributions formulated. This cannot be done when you substitute these definitions with “strength” and “weakness”.

Edit: I mistakenly said they both had Mars conjunct Venus; only Madoff did.

RaptInReverie-- I appreciate your efforts to come to a mutual understanding!

So far as charts go, it is easy to find someone's birth date from an anonymous chart, provided you have an ephemeris. A really skilled astrologer can get the birth location off it, as well. Most people don't care about such things, and that's fine. I do.

I sure wouldn't attribute any and all problems to the 12th house! People with multiple sexual contacts (call it what you will: polyandry, "fooling around", &c.) oftentimes have contacts between Mars, Venus and Jupiter. Mars and Venus are the sexy planets. Jupiter is often the energy of, "If a little is good, a lot is better."

So far as I know,however, Madoff was faithful to his wife, if not his investors! Jupiter is the traditional ruler of Madoff's 8th house of investments; and Neptune, the modern ruler. He has an unaspected Saturn in solo Aries in his 8th house.

We know quite a bit about some celebrities. While I don't know what Jimmy Carter is like at home in private, for example; he was constantly in the news while President; and even now appears on the news occasionally. Many famous people have full-length biographies; and some, autobiographies or in-depth interviews. So I wouldn't speculate on something I couldn't see from public information-- unless I emphasized that it was only speculation.

hi raptinreverie,

astrology is a symbolic language as i know it.. if the basic concept of sun as a symbol for strength and saturn for a symbol of weakness is something you can't make any sense of, then it is not going to change by putting either in a sign or house to give it more meaning.. that one can grow and come to terms with the weaknesses implied by saturn hinges on whether a person wants to accept responsibility for ones place in life and see about turning lead into gold..

as for my examples, i was pondering the thought of 'self undoing' and madoff quickly came to mind.. that his life unraveled is a fact, not speculation.. that it had great bearing on his immediate family is also without contest.. one of his two sons committed suicide as a direct result/response to the dynamics of madoffs mechanisms on dec 11th the same day madoff was arrested..

it is a strong story that must have some strong astro to go with it that i might learn something from and indeed i do from examining the data to the important dates that go with this story.. june 29th 2009 madoff is sentenced to 150 years in prison.. this coincides with the primary direction of pluto to midheaven for june of 2009.. now whether pluto is a 12th house planet in madoffs chart or not may hinge on your choice of house system, and whether you believe the time of 150pm is accurate or not.. for me the planet that rules madoffs 12th is the moon which is combust at the final phase of sun-moon.. although it is said to be strong in the sign of taurus, i think we can get some indication the type of 'self undoing' madoff was involved in here thru the sign, house position and close conjunction to the 2nd house ruler mercury retro.

i would definitely include the role of neptune in much of the symbolism for madoff and if you examine the data on the events at the turning point when the extent of the unraveling became publicly known i think you will conclude the same.. now, just what does neptune have to do with the 12th sign or house is up to others to decide, but i think there is a connection - the same connection that people make to ideas of spirituality.. for me, i don't just rely on a house to define a particular area of life and actually liked what you said about 'self undoing' being possible from any part of the chart, or something to that effect.. i would point to neptune as being quite connected to all of these ideas on either side of the line.. thanks for the conversation and no sweat about the slowness of your reply.. it is all good..

Munch said:

Hahaha! One would think! Not true though (at least not conclusively). As Mars has been retrograde in my 12th for what feels like for ages. I have become less enchanted with the ethereal and spiritual and more enchanted with the physical and 'real.'

To be fair, I have simultaneously had Pluto squaring my natal Saturn/Jupiter Conjunction in Libra (1st house) and conjunct my IC. It is now also 4 degrees from an exact conjunction with my Capricorn sun as well so I'm not 100% what's to 'blame.'

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Thanks Munch. Yes, mars as a planet that requires physical activity, is active and dynamic, can cause the 12th be more about the physical world. Since mars is ruler of the 7th, it could be causing you to think in a more spiritual/selfless (12th) way about partnerships/others (7th) - which is very much an earthly matter. Also if you think of all the planets as professors which teach us specific subjects and qualities, then professor mars is showing you that spirituality/selflessness has a very solid, dynamic, active, energetic aspect to it - we need to be active about spirituality/selflessness - not passive.

I'm also going through pluto in transit exactly conjunt my natal sun (8* capricorn) ruler of 2nd and 3rd in the 7th. Professor Pluto is the ruler of my 5th, so is he trying to teach me be creative, play, have fun (5th) in a transformative way (pluto) so that I reconstruct my sense of self worth (2nd) and improve communication (3rd) which transforms the way I function in partnerships (7th)? I wonder. As of now I don't feel as if my self/identity/individuality/ego is being crushed/devasted/annihilated (pluto) during this transit (or perhaps it was already destoyed long ago by my saturn!). How are you experiencing your pluto transit?

RaptInReverie, Waybread, Sandstone

The 12th is about spirituality and spiritual growth of our soul. Karma is an experiential teaching tool for spiritual growth. Only by facing the consequences of our words/actions and by getting a dose of our medicine do we get an all round perspective of the far-reaching and painful affects of our words/actions.

Why shouldn't we lie, steal, cheat, murder, mislead, hurt or harm anyone? Well most of us don't understand it until we are at the recieving end of it. If you have been cheated out of your hard earned money then you will (hopefully) never want to cheat anyone. That is how the 12th teaches you and this brings about spiritual growth. If you refuse to learn your lessons, then the 12th will keep repeating your lessons (i.e. karma).

Hopefully, people such as bernie madoff will listen to their 12th house. It is not "self-undoing" - why would anyone want to "self-undo"? His soul probably needed this experience to grow spiritually - and perhaps he has come to give karmic payback to a lot of people who needed the experience of being cheated - maybe these people were cheats in their former lives - or maybe madoff did it out of his free will and got instant karma (a great blessing, instant karma).

waybread said:

Gaer-- Is that you???? Welcome back!!

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Yes. I'm back. I lost a very close, dear friend who was a big part of this forum, and I think I had to go through a grieving process to find my way back. I'll tell you more about this in a PM, if you are interested.

I take your point about a parental planet indicating the person's experience of the planet, not what the parent was objectively like. Obviously you could have siblings each with different Saturn or moon placements, yet it's the same parent notwithstanding. And of course, our experiences can change over time.

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I'm sure you remember me as a bit of a maverick. I tend to be "agnostic" in a very large sense, not wanting to be taken for a mark by fully committing to any belief system, but I could never be an atheist, also in the largest sense, a person who rejects things as impossible just because they may be unlikely.

For that reason I take "wisdom" with a huge grain of salt unless I have experience the truth of it personally. Any word we throw around can be viewed from many different perspectives. What is "service"? Is it really harder to serve than be served? Is it really less rewarding? Is un-doing a bad thing? Don't we all need a bit of it now and then? That is sort of the a Scorpionic point of view, perhaps. We can wait for life to un-do us, which then happens in ways that are horribly timed and terribly painful, or we can make up our minds to deliberately un-do ourselves, periodically, consciously and with clear goals.

I would argue that the people who are "un-done" by life, or karma, or fate, are those who have learned to turn off reality-checks, or worse, have learned NOT to listen to their own inner voices.

I would interpret my own 12th house experiences as incredibly intense. I can never shake a very strong feeling that "the hour of midnight is about to arrive", and by that I mean that the time for change is NOW. For me wrong actions, including any kind of cruelty or selfishness, have immediate, powerful consequences. I literally get sick when I lose my temper unfairly, lash out at people impatiently, or - worst of all - appoint myself judge and jury in a way that tells me I have the right to look down on other people.

Which does not keep me from making those mistakes!

I think the 12th house is easier to explain for people who have read Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now; Buddhism, Hinduism, or some of the human potential movements that encourage people to get their egos out of the way and just be still.

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Again, I think a 12th house emphasis makes realizing this more critical. Is there a person on this planet who does not need to learn more about stilling the ego and learning to be still? But perhaps those without this 12th house emphasis are better able to defer that growth. That is the only thing that resonates with me. It's as if letting my ego get out of control brings karmic lessons 12 times as fast as for many others. If I did not know that, I would spend my whole life totally miserable. In fact, if I had not learned that lesson at least to some extent, long ago, I am quite sure I would have been long dead.

Some people who are not really meant to be happiest in highly visible positions with lots of obvious recognition may limp along living such a life. They may never realize another path might make them much happier. For me the moment I went in that direction, looking for a more obvious, visible place in the world, I got the absolute opposite of what I thought I wanted. I was totally miserable.

I also need an incredible amount of quiet time, time to recharge.

Here is another idea. Unlike most here I do not read books or study astrology. That may be my loss, but I only have my own experience and those of other people I've known, both as people and as "natives" (with charts). The more refined our knowledge of good and evil becomes, right and wrong, wise and foolish, the more immediate and critical "paybacks" become when we violate that knowledge, for any reason.

I suspect that people who live tragic lives who have "difficult" 12th house placements probably have to work overtime to "kill" their own intuitive sense of what they should and should not be doing, so if they do ignore their own inner knowledge and willfully choose to go against what they really know to be right and true, their suffering is unbearable.

Looked at from this perspective, the ego might be a good servant but it is definitely a poor master. As the modern "house of self undoing" the 12th house works best if we learn how to let our self be run by What-Is rather than by me, me, me. I think this shift in consciousness is felt most strongly by 12th house sun people; but as Carris indicated, it can take a while for the individual to make this transition.

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That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I don't think all people with such placements delay in making necessary transitions, but those who do are going to feel the pain of not doing so MUCH more keenly. However, I don't have my Sun there, so I can't comment on this personally. In fact, none of my friends or family members have Sun in the 12th. That is strange, really, because statistically I would think one out of 12 people would have that placement.

gaer said:

For that reason I take "wisdom" with a huge grain of salt unless I have experience the truth of it personally. Any word we throw around can be viewed from many different perspectives. What is "service"? Is it really harder to serve than be served? Is it really less rewarding? Is un-doing a bad thing? Don't we all need a bit of it now and then? That is sort of the a Scorpionic point of view, perhaps. We can wait for life to un-do us, which then happens in ways that are horribly timed and terribly painful, or we can make up our minds to deliberately un-do ourselves, periodically, consciously and with clear goals.

I would argue that the people who are "un-done" by life, or karma, or fate, are those who have learned to turn off reality-checks, or worse, have learned NOT to listen to their own inner voices.

I would interpret my own 12th house experiences as incredibly intense. I can never shake a very strong feeling that "the hour of midnight is about to arrive", and by that I mean that the time for change is NOW. For me wrong actions, including any kind of cruelty or selfishness, have immediate, powerful consequences. I literally get sick when I lose my temper unfairly, lash out at people impatiently, or - worst of all - appoint myself judge and jury in a way that tells me I have the right to look down on other people.

I also need an incredible amount of quiet time, time to recharge.

The more refined our knowledge of good and evil becomes, right and wrong, wise and foolish, the more immediate and critical "paybacks" become when we violate that knowledge, for any reason.

I suspect that people who live tragic lives who have "difficult" 12th house placements probably have to work overtime to "kill" their own intuitive sense of what they should and should not be doing, so if they do ignore their own inner knowledge and willfully choose to go against what they really know to be right and true, their suffering is unbearable.

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Thanks Gaer!

I can completely identify and relate with this! I had not thought of this before - about immediate powerful consequences of wrong actions - but it is so true for me.

I think this is an excellent thing - to correct yourself immediately rather than after a long time (or in a future life, if you believe in reincarnation). I think this is a great blessing from saturn - he keeps his cane ready - ready to thrash me at the slightest hint of wrongdoing. A more easygoing planet like jupiter or venus would let me get away with it till I end up with a huge mess and large karmic debt to payback.

dOOdle,

thanks for your prevoius comments which appear to have gone missing..

gaer,

i am curious how you factor in the strong neptune in your chart involved in the new moon and a couple of degrees off both sun and moon? i have seen sun/neptune conjunct in charts of a weak or absent father figure, although you did go over commenting on that earlier.. i think neptune energy and the 12th sign/house have some parallels.. thanks for your comments here.

carris,

interesting take on madoff.. i am not sure what the bigger picture for him is in all of this and i can see how someone could say that the 12th house is not prominent in his chart.. a case can be made for venus on the south node having some connections to the concept of 'self undoing' as well..

sandstone said:

gaer,

i am curious how you factor in the strong neptune in your chart involved in the new moon and a couple of degrees off both sun and moon?

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Well, this gets interesting re tradiational and non-traditional astrology. There are those who completely deny any influence from Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I am not one of them.

One astrologer I knew claimed that reading the chart of someone who is far more evolved than we are is pointless. She was a believer in reincarnation and based her POV on the idea that a chart cannot tell us the spiritual path on which any "native" is traveling. I find that a very interesting idea.

I think we are safe in linking Neptune to the absolute opposite of practicality, materialism, being grounded, common sense. So if the influence of Neptune is not balanced with other factors that indicate some kind of strong grounding, there is great danger. I dislike money. I dislike all practical things. I have been attracted to music and fantasy from the time I was very small. I do what I have to in order to keep the materialistic side of life sane, but I am happiest lost in a dream-world, making up my own reality. However, if we "create our own reality", and that reality does not make us irresponsible or self-destructive, I do not see that as a bad thing.

I also grew up in a very alcoholic environment, where drinking was considered the norm, and not drinking was considered a "hang-up". Up to age 30 I was very connected to other people who drank or who used other drugs (since alcohol itself is a drug) - so I was in great danger of falling into the Neptunian world of escape, in the worst sense.

i have seen sun/neptune conjunct in charts of a weak or absent father figure, although you did go over commenting on that earlier.. i think neptune energy and the 12th sign/house have some parallels.. thanks for your comments here.

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I think they are different. To me the 12th is about "time to pay the piper". Or "thing are now due". Since human beings, in general, are very good at not seeing what they don't wish to see, they are often even better at not seeing the really big SCARY and DESTRUCTIVE things they don't wish to see. Those who believe in reincarnation believe that 12th problems point to deeply ingrained habits that have been developed over many lifetimes and that have not been addressed. I am not a believer or a non-believer in reincarnation, but I think the model is at least worth keeping in mind.

If we concentrate on the negative, not paying attention to affairs that must be taken care of, then a Neptunian desire to escape, not face things, in combination with avoiding seeing ourselves as we are and taking action, is lethal.

But ANY influence that causes us not to pay attention to the affairs of this house is incredibly dangerous. I would merely say that Neptune indicates a certain KIND of self-delusion, and it is self-delusion itself that causes the "un-doing".

Does that train of thought make any sense?

gaer said:

<...>

I think we are safe in linking Neptune to the absolute opposite of practicality, materialism, being grounded, common sense. So if the influence of Neptune is not balanced with other factors that indicate some kind of strong grounding, there is great danger. <...>

To me the 12th is about "time to pay the piper". Or "thing are now due". Since human beings, in general, are very good at not seeing what they don't wish to see, they are often even better at not seeing the really big SCARY and DESTRUCTIVE things they don't wish to see. Those who believe in reincarnation believe that 12th problems point to deeply ingrained habits that have been developed over many lifetimes and that have not been addressed. I am not a believer or a non-believer in reincarnation, but I think the model is at least worth keeping in mind.

If we concentrate on the negative, not paying attention to affairs that must be taken care of, then a Neptunian desire to escape, not face things, in combination with avoiding seeing ourselves as we are and taking action, is lethal.

<...>

Does that train of thought make any sense?

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Hello, Gaer.

With strong 12 house placements and significant Neptune influence in my natal chart, I think that the way you have synthesized your observations makes a lot of sense. I think you hit the nail on the head with your description of the 12th house. Whether one believes in past lives, reincarnation, genetics or none of the above, my experience and observation and given the sign and planets in my 12th house, it does have the feel of "time to pay the piper" or accounts that are past due. I especially agree that the sign, ruler and placements in the 12th point to deeply ingrained habits that have not been addressed.

Regarding Neptune, its symbolic gifts are seen as boundlessness, imagination, selflessness, surrender, empathy, compassion, truth. If the individual lacks mastery over its ego [Saturn] then Neptune can suggest illusion, delusion, confusion, deception.

Carris, again-- not everybody has it in him/her to be spiritual. I wish it were otherwise, but I can't, based upon people I know. This doesn't mean that they are not ethical, caring people. It's just that there is no metaphysics behind life for them. I don't think we can judge what is right or wrong for such people.

One thing I've hesitated to mention but might be worth including, is my personal belief is that houses were actually a Greek interpretation of Egyptian religious beliefs.

On the one had, the early morning house of the sun as "bad", from a diurnal perspective, makes no sense. Shouldn't this house be very fortunate from the perspective of the "underground" sun suddenly making its way into the heavens? Yet Manilius (1st century AD, Astronomica) says that the 12th is misfortunate, and the house of Typhon. Well Typhon (from whom we get our word typhoon) was none other than the Egyptian god Seth (Set,) a trickster god. Then Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos, 2nd century AD, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt) said that the 12th was misfortunate because of the early morning mists that blocked a clear view of the stars (and presumably, the sun.)

I don't know how many people here have read Plutarch's Isis and Osiris, but he was a Greek author writing on ancient Egyptian religion; and although he didn't mention astrology, he said that the Egyptian people lit incense 3 times daily to ward off evil spirits: once just after dawn, once in mid-afternoon, and once at sunset. These precisely coincide to the dirunal time periods of the 12th, 8th, and 6th houses. The "misfortunate" ones in traditional astrology.

I did some research on Seth, and found that although the Egyptians highly prized order and the fertile Nile Valley; Seth was the god of the uninhabited desert and its sandstorms. Sandstorms are a common feature of life even within the Nile Valley, at certain times of year, so Ptolemy's idea of obscured stars may not be far off the mark. The beautiful, orderly, and fertile Nile Valley was endangered by desert winds obscuring the sky with blowing sand. Sandstorms would be seen as disorderly and inimicable to human well-being. Then I googled "Egypt sunrise" images and saw that in many of the photos, the sun was difficult to see due to particulates in the atmosphere!

If I make a metaphor out of Egyptian mythology and ecology, I think that 12th house terrain is that realm of obscurity. As I posted above, oftentimes our 12th house matters are hidden from us, even though others may see these traits in us pretty clearly. This is one reason why 12th housers are best being very altruistic and "self-sacrificing": because the "self" in this placement is always an obscure target.

Spirituality is not about preaching to others about spirituality. Then it turns into theology, a 9th house matter.