Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

petosiris

Banned
How does this apply to the Southern Hemisphere? :biggrin:

If you have a brain, it obviously follows that you need to reverse the zodiac for Southern Hemisphere charts when using the natural method of inquiry, for example the current pope would have Jupiter in Cancer attending the Sun in Gemini.

Its natural rulers are Moon by house (summery and feminine), Jupiter by elevation (north elevation), and Mars by triangle for both day and night nativities, although of the triangle, it is the weakest place for Mars and its depression, because Mars rejoices with fiery south winds when it is nearer to the earth in Capricorn.

This works obviously in the same way with the reversed zodiac, except that the south elevation (of Cancer or Capricorn, whatever you want to call it) brings fecund south winds (which are naturally the opposite nature for the Northern Hemisphere), and the most southern sign is depression for Mars in the Southern Hemisphere on the same principle, it rejoices when burning near to the horizon.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
If you have a brain, it obviously follows that you need to reverse the zodiac for Southern Hemisphere charts when using the natural method of inquiry, for example the current pope would have Jupiter in Cancer attending the Sun in Gemini.



This works obviously in the same way with the reversed zodiac, except that the south elevation (of Cancer or Capricorn, whatever you want to call it) brings fecund south winds (which are naturally the opposite nature for the Northern Hemisphere), and the south is depression for Mars in the Southern Hemisphere on the same principle, it rejoices when burning near to the horizon.

So, you still have the Sun in Cancer when it's Summer in the Southern Hemisphere? Who DOES that?
 

petosiris

Banned
So, a total separation of tropical from sidereal in the Southern Hemisphere by some of the Renaissance astrologers! What about Vettius and Morinus?

Who is Vettius? Valens lived in the second century and people did not know about the Southern Hemisphere and antipodes back then. Morinus foolishly tried to argue for non-reversal in Astrologia Gallica volume 15, chapter I. Last time I checked this chapter in the translation by Holden was freely available at google books. Also sidereal was not a thing in the Renaissance, although it was somewhat debated in the Medieval period (Ibn Ezra supported the usage of the latter only in the case of the zodiacal images).
 

david starling

Well-known member
Who is Vettius? Valens lived in the second century and people did not know about the Southern Hemisphere and antipodes back then. Morinus foolishly tried to argue for non-reversal in Astrologia Gallica volume 15, chapter I. Last time I checked this chapter in the translation by Holden was freely available at google books. Also sidereal was not a thing in the Renaissance, although it was somewhat debated in the Medieval period (Ibn Ezra supported the usage of the latter only in the case of the zodiacal images).

So, there IS proof that Morinus was tropical!
 

petosiris

Banned
The Sun obviously changes its position and effect depending on its location for places other than the Equatorial zone. It would be foolish to assume that the same processes do not equally apply to the Moon and the other five planets, and that these places are not most obviously divided into four seasons, each with three equal parts. If this happens to not occur at the Equator because north and south differ only in location, but not in effect (by elevation), then it logically follows that these places experience all the effects of the stars and angles, but zero effect from the so-called tropical zodiac.

In these geographical places, it is most wise to use only the planets and their aspects with each other, and particularly their placement relative to the Sun (the four phases) and the angles (for they are in full effect here as elsewhere compared to the polar regions). It is not natural to employ the usual division of houses, triangles, elevations and terms here, instead the sublunar influence of heat, moisture, dryness and cold is wholly decided upon the other factors relative to the universe and the nativity - see https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126640

Note that places just below the tropics still experience some degree of change in effect, so they must still give proportional power to the zodiac. Suppose some planet at the exact Equator is always operative relative to the zodiac, it can still be powerful, operative or inoperative relative to its phase with respect to the universe, and powerful, operative or inoperative relative to the angles with respect to the nativity, and not to mention the great power of planets intermingling with each other or with their aspects, which cause the greater change in the quality of the seed. The so-called zodiac is definitely not a necessity for the natural method of inquiry, and in fact, it is simply nonexistent for certain latitudes.
 
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YonyGursho

Well-known member
Aries all the way to pisces is about starting off with baby mentality, all about me mentality, and ending with the "greater good" mentality.

Aries is the start, the beginning, the top of the human body. The head/face which is our most unique feature, and thus is our own unique "identity" as it is the main thing that distinguishes ourselves from others on the surface.

We start only thinking about ourselves, with no experience or knowledge to do anything more than that.

Taurus is second, and rules the neck/throat. Taurus rules material things/practical things anyways, so the neck symbolizes what we swallow/eat through, which is most closely associated with material things, so this is no coincidence either.

Taurus isn't much more experienced than Aries, thus the reason why Taurus rules practical things. At this point it is not merely about self (aries), but still very far from being about the very end of the zodiac sign evolution (pisces).

Taurus is when the baby is still very young and has the bib and pacifier still, all it does is basic/practical things all day like sleep and eat.

Gemini is third, and rules the brain, shoulders, the arms, and the nervous system. Gemini rules thinking, communication, and thus wit and wit is born from speed, speed is born from nervousness. So it is no coincidence that Gemini rules the nervous system. The shoulders and the arms are very jittery and built in a way so that they move very quickly compared to other body parts, so this is no coincidence. Obviously it's no coincidence that without our brain we wouldn't be able to think.

Also, the shoulders and arms is right below the neck/throat (taurus) too, so this makes sense moving forward. Gemini is when more awareness of life is gained, and it is no longer the toddler (Taurus) but is now the young kid archetype. Very jittery, very thoughtful and communicative at this point over all other points, this is when thinking, wit, restlessness, and communication is at it's highest, this is the stage where learning and thinking about the surrounding environment is naturally at it's greatest and the best time to be done in the lifetime.

Cancer is fourth, and rules the hands, and is the crab (and crabs are unique for their claws/hands). Cancer rules the mood, emotions, the mothering character. This makes sense to be right after Gemini, because after communicating with and learning about the environment is at it's highest (gemini), the environment has thus been analyzed for whatever exactly it is, so now nurturing and taking into account the feelings of others is now possible (cancer's whole theme) and the the most important at this age.

Leo is fifth, and rules the heart, and is the lion. At this phase, self-image is developed, a prideful stance. Leo's theme is pride/heart after all, as ego is it's theme. At this point, dramatic tendencies and playfulness is developed, it is the focus of our lives here, and never before too, as it is when we have finally experienced enough to let loose and start to understand who we are and what we are meant to do, it has become most important.


Virgo is sixth, and rules the digestive system. Virgo is all about peculiarness, details, organization. This is no coincidence, as the digestive system is used to break down food into small parts and puts it exactly where it has to go (organization of scattered messiness).

At this point, we are looking at the age where organization becomes important and becomes the main priority, as the smallest details are the focus. This makes the most sense to happen right after leo (when we acquire our self-image), as right after that we have all of the tools necessary to start preparing for adulthood/maturity (capricorn). We are still in the center/middle-ish area of the body, and have been since Leo, and will be for one more sign: Libra.

Libra is the seventh, and rules the kidneys. The kidneys are physically most similar to the scale, which measures the pros and cons of every situation, and is all about fairness in that way. This is the age where we are about agreeability with others, love and romance affairs have become most important and the main priority. This is the high schooler archetype.

Scorpio is the eighth, and rules sexual matters, power, and extreme things. It rules the reproductive organs. This is the age where we are most about sexual matters and all about being dominant over our surroundings. This is the young adult archetype, fresh out of high school and of college age.

Sagitarrius is the ninth, and rules expansion, largeness, freedom, far from home travels and far from home places. It, among other things, rules the thighs, the legs, and the hips. The thighs contain a lot of fat and are large, same thing with the legs and the hips. These body parts can and tend to grow large and prominently large, sag = largeness and growth/expansion so this is no coincidence either.

This is the age where we are most about freedom, travelling far and abroad and doing whatever we want, and exploring, to have fun, as it is the the prime of our youthfulness. This is the college graduate, who has studied and amassed so much knowledge through college and their education during scorpio, freedom and having fun is the main priority now, as it is the last time it will be available to this extent.

Capricorn is the tenth, and rules the skeletal system and the joints. The skeleton and joints are most responsible for our body's overall stability, without the skeleton and joints we would be a gooey, slimy mess of mere flesh and blood with no actual structure whatsoever.

Capricorn is all about determination, as it is about work, challenges, and climbing up the ladder to success, at the top. Capricorn is the sea goat, whose nature is to climb from the water depths all the way to the top of the mountain (the top of the social ladder). This is the age where building our reputation socially and our career matters are most important, as it is right after sagitarrius, the stage of merriment, optimism, fun and travels, freedom right before the start of true adult hood. This is the age where we are middle age-old age, and the stage of disciplining ourselves more than ever.

Aquarius is the eleventh, and rules the ankles and the circulatory system. It is about discovering who others are, and thus the hopes of all. The circulatory system is the flow of blood to everywhere in the body, similar to how aquarius is the water-bearer, who knows of the hopes of all. This is the age where this is the focus and most important, it is when we are of old age - elderly age, and have acquired the knowledge of what needs to be given to the world for advancement and how to advance society as a whole.

Aquarius is slightly ruled by saturn, saturn rules stability and the entire skeletal system. This is why aquarius rules the ankles, which is a very small portion of our skeleton. Saturn stablelizes the radical, wild eccentricism of Uranus (the main ruler of aquarius). Without as much of saturn's power as aquarius has, it wouldnt be what it is and would be a wild, uncontrollable eccentric mess, with no maturity.

Pisces is the twelfth, and rules the feet. It is when we have acquired compassion for everything, no matter what it is, as of course, this could only be acquired after realizing what the hopes of all are (which was done during aquarius). Pisces is about sacrifice, universal compassion, the death of self, and the end, and when we have developed a very broad, in most cases universal love and understanding. This is the age where we die.

Why it rules the feet is unknown, however it is the bottom of the human body, and as we all know we started at the very top (the head/aries).


That's my take on it all. Hope you enjoyed. :smile:
 
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petosiris

Banned
I just noticed something about the order starting with Cancer


It starts with the signs ruling the Moon and the Sun, which makes sense


I don't really get why the signs ruled by the most important planets would be almost in the middle of the Zodiac, when the Sun is really the start of it all, and the Moon is the life giver and representant of Planet Earth, which we live in

Cancer and Leo are flanked by the other houses. Aries is exaltation of the Sun, and Taurus of the Moon, and exaltations are arguably equal or even greater in importance than houses. They are most likely derived from the Babylonian New Year, which put the beginning of the year at Aries.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I just noticed something about the order starting with Cancer


It starts with the signs ruling the Moon and the Sun, which makes sense


I don't really get why the signs ruled by the most important planets would be almost in the middle of the Zodiac, when the Sun is really the start of it all, and the Moon is the life giver and representant of Planet Earth, which we live in

It's about the sequence of Modalities and Elements. The Cardinals are the initiators, and Cardinal-Fire leads it off. The Earth began as Fiery plasma; hardened (became "Fixed" in alchemical terminology) into planet Earth; formed the atmosphere, the Mutable mantle of Air; and the moisture in the atmosphere condensed into rain, and covered the planet with Water.
Starting with Aries as Sign#1 follows that pattern.
 

petosiris

Banned
It's about the sequence of Modalities and Elements. The Cardinals are the initiators, and Cardinal-Fire leads it off. The Earth began as Fiery plasma; hardened (became "Fixed" in alchemical terminology) into planet Earth; formed the atmosphere, the Mutable mantle of Air; and the moisture in the atmosphere condensed into rain, and covered the planet with Water.
Starting with Aries as Sign#1 follows that pattern.

Although Aries is stormy (house of Mars) and increasing heat (elevation of Sun), it is still predominantly moist and the beginning of spring, which element is Air, not Fire.
 
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