Does Pluto conjunct ASC always equal trauma?

echosent

Member
I'm hoping to snare in a few of the more experienced astrologers with this question about Pluto (tightly) conjuncting the ascendant.

Is it possible to have Pluto conjunct ASC (say within 1-3 degrees or even exact) and NOT have had a traumatic birth experience or early life?

Would love to hear some thoughts or experience or observations on this. I'd also like to hear about esoteric knowledge regarding this placement if it's out there.
 

Therese

Well-known member
hi echosent,

I'm not saying that Pluto on the ascendant cannot signify traumatic birth or traumatic early childhood if the rest of the chart supports it, but it can also manifest in other ways, just like there are lots of other placements that can imply trauma in early childhood: neither Pluto, nor the first house have a monopoly on the issue...

Check out Barry Gibb, Marilyn Monroe or D.H. Lawrence, for example.

.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
I'm hoping to snare in a few of the more experienced astrologers with this question about Pluto (tightly) conjuncting the ascendant.

Is it possible to have Pluto conjunct ASC (say within 1-3 degrees or even exact) and NOT have had a traumatic birth experience or early life?

Would love to hear some thoughts or experience or observations on this.

Pluto spends a long time in every sign and the sign's 'spirit of the time' will determine how it is emotionally experienced. A Pluto conjunct Ascendant could be in either the 12th or 1st house. The one is a closed door house, the other is an open door house. They will act entirely differently, yet the Ascending sign will personally identify with Pluto's tendencies should they be in the same sign. This doesn't have to be detrimental of nature. It depends upon aspects made to Pluto, especially from Sun and Moon, as well as Pluto's ruling sign, Scorpio.

As an example:
My daughter has Libra Ascendant, with a Mercury-Pluto conjunction and Sun in Libra in the 1st house. Mercury-Pluto is well aspected, so she has a good 'friendly persuasive reasoning ability'.....a necessity to compensate for her 5 foot nothing size .

Her own birth was the easiest and quickest of my children. Maybe because she's the youngest and 'the way was already paved' for her? She should have been born under Scorpio. I've always said that she couldn't wait to get out and enter the world. Minor contractions for most of my pregnancy with her and she was born 2 weeks before expected, whilst her siblings both arrived on time!

Yet her own 3 pregnancies have all been difficult, demanding hospitalisation. We all wondered why she wanted to go through it all when she knew what could happen. That willpower to survive? Tremendous.

On the other hand, she has seen more traumatic cessations of life in (young) friends and family than the rest of the family put together have seen in all of theirs. She once asked if people ever died a natural death in their beds! Her too young brother-in-law that followed her best friend's demise, both of a terminal disease, occured just before her transit Pluto square itself. It was as if these last two were the proverbial straw. Her attitude towards the meaning of life and survival is even stronger than it was: Live for today.

I think Pluto being in her Ascendant has much to do with the influence of a 12th house Moon. If that's esoteric of nature, I couldn''t say. :smile:
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Therese, I'm just confused as to why you have provided links to the 3 people, since none of the 3 have Pluto on their Asc natally. Was this to signify that there are those without Pluto on their Asc at birth who live difficult lives??? That goes without saying.

And I don't associate Pluto conj Asc with a difficult birth. I'd put that with a Capricorn Asc - struggle to make the transition.

I disagree that planets on the Asc can given one a `difficult and traumatic life'. There has to be a lot of other indicators in the rest of the chart for that to be so. Pluto conj Asc, especially from the 1st house, would render a person somewhat Scorpionic in approach to others and life in general - interested in the deeper issues of existence.
 

Slenkar

Well-known member
I have pluto in the 12th house conjunct ascendant.

My life has been about 12th house themes.
Self-undoing,confinement and isolation.
 

Therese

Well-known member
Raven,

Yes, that's why. I wanted to prove that generalizations don't work. It's easier to bring up examples of people whom we know suffered from early childhood trauma and do not have Pluto conjunct the ascendant than the other way round. I mean, how can we prove that someone with Pluto conjunct the ascendant didn't have a childhood trauma? it might be that the person doesn't want to disclose such information, or they do not remember their childhood, etc. That was all.
 

LyP

Well-known member
I do not think so ...

I had some unusual events in childhood,i have Pluto in the 12th house conj asc

but there are many people with a childhood/birth difficult that don't has pluto conj.asc
depends more of transits to me

I had a classmate that the mother took many shots because, wanted to revenge her husband and was romantic involved with a drug dealer.
I do not remember if he saw she dying , anyway, uuuuhhhh,omg horrible, man!
I do not think Pluto was in the ascendant.
 

echosent

Member
Wow, thank you, everyone! I didn't expect to return to so many wonderful and helpful replies.

I have been researching my own chart and when reading descriptions of natal Pluto-Asc both online and in books, it's often mentioned as being linked to a traumatic birth experience, or of some vague notion of a difficult painful early life. It made me doubt the accuracy of my birthtime since the event itself wasn't especially traumatic for my mother or myself, aside from the general trauma that is giving birth and being born.

I'll now respond individually to each post. Just wanted to say thanks first.
 

echosent

Member
hi echosent,

I'm not saying that Pluto on the ascendant cannot signify traumatic birth or traumatic early childhood if the rest of the chart supports it, but it can also manifest in other ways, just like there are lots of other placements that can imply trauma in early childhood: neither Pluto, nor the first house have a monopoly on the issue...

Check out Barry Gibb, Marilyn Monroe or D.H. Lawrence, for example.

.

Raven,

Yes, that's why. I wanted to prove that generalizations don't work. It's easier to bring up examples of people whom we know suffered from early childhood trauma and do not have Pluto conjunct the ascendant than the other way round. I mean, how can we prove that someone with Pluto conjunct the ascendant didn't have a childhood trauma? it might be that the person doesn't want to disclose such information, or they do not remember their childhood, etc. That was all.

This was actually a brilliant way of illustrating your point. It makes so much sense when you lay it out like that. Of course, it is quite the generalization.

Thank you, Therese.
 

echosent

Member
Pluto spends a long time in every sign and the sign's 'spirit of the time' will determine how it is emotionally experienced. A Pluto conjunct Ascendant could be in either the 12th or 1st house. The one is a closed door house, the other is an open door house. They will act entirely differently, yet the Ascending sign will personally identify with Pluto's tendencies should they be in the same sign. This doesn't have to be detrimental of nature. It depends upon aspects made to Pluto, especially from Sun and Moon, as well as Pluto's ruling sign, Scorpio.

As an example:
My daughter has Libra Ascendant, with a Mercury-Pluto conjunction and Sun in Libra in the 1st house. Mercury-Pluto is well aspected, so she has a good 'friendly persuasive reasoning ability'.....a necessity to compensate for her 5 foot nothing size .

Her own birth was the easiest and quickest of my children. Maybe because she's the youngest and 'the way was already paved' for her? She should have been born under Scorpio. I've always said that she couldn't wait to get out and enter the world. Minor contractions for most of my pregnancy with her and she was born 2 weeks before expected, whilst her siblings both arrived on time!

Yet her own 3 pregnancies have all been difficult, demanding hospitalisation. We all wondered why she wanted to go through it all when she knew what could happen. That willpower to survive? Tremendous.

On the other hand, she has seen more traumatic cessations of life in (young) friends and family than the rest of the family put together have seen in all of theirs. She once asked if people ever died a natural death in their beds! Her too young brother-in-law that followed her best friend's demise, both of a terminal disease, occured just before her transit Pluto square itself. It was as if these last two were the proverbial straw. Her attitude towards the meaning of life and survival is even stronger than it was: Live for today.

I think Pluto being in her Ascendant has much to do with the influence of a 12th house Moon. If that's esoteric of nature, I couldn''t say. :smile:

Hi Frisiangal,

Are Pluto and Moon making an aspect in your daughter's chart?
 

echosent

Member
And I don't associate Pluto conj Asc with a difficult birth. I'd put that with a Capricorn Asc - struggle to make the transition.

I disagree that planets on the Asc can given one a `difficult and traumatic life'. There has to be a lot of other indicators in the rest of the chart for that to be so. Pluto conj Asc, especially from the 1st house, would render a person somewhat Scorpionic in approach to others and life in general - interested in the deeper issues of existence.

R4VEN,

Your take on Pluto-ASC sounds right on the money. "Deeper isues of existence" is so accurate. Depth questioning is important to me, and shallow inquiry is something that angers and frustrates me.

Very interesting about the Capricorn ASC ... Would you say the experience would be similar for someone with Saturn conjuncting their ASC?
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
R4VEN,

Your take on Pluto-ASC sounds right on the money. "Deeper isues of existence" is so accurate. Depth questioning is important to me, and shallow inquiry is something that angers and frustrates me.

Very interesting about the Capricorn ASC ... Would you say the experience would be similar for someone with Saturn conjuncting their ASC?
The short answer to your question is `absolutely'.

I have birth`memories', in which I was reluctant to make my way through the birth canal, having some inkling as to the life I had programmed for myself. My own birth trauma was mainly my mother's, but my experience was of being (very roughly and reluctantly) dragged out of the birth canal with forceps, and 3 weeks early also. And given I have Sun-Pluto conjunction natally, I have had a lifetime hatred/fear of being pushed/pulled into doing something I am not prepared for. Birth is a very, very important transition. (Oh, and I may not have mentioned that my Asc is Capricorn)
 

echosent

Member
The short answer to your question is `absolutely'.

I have birth`memories', in which I was reluctant to make my way through the birth canal, having some inkling as to the life I had programmed for myself. My own birth trauma was mainly my mother's, but my experience was of being (very roughly and reluctantly) dragged out of the birth canal with forceps, and 3 weeks early also. And given I have Sun-Pluto conjunction natally, I have had a lifetime hatred/fear of being pushed/pulled into doing something I am not prepared for. Birth is a very, very important transition. (Oh, and I may not have mentioned that my Asc is Capricorn)

I'm amazed that you can remember the experience of birth. My earliest memories begin around age 3-4. I can't imagine how visceral the memory experience must be since a newborn is pure openness, a fresh sponge.

I have a Saturn-Pluto conjunction conjuncting my Ascendant. I do have that Capricorn-Scorpio edge to me: I relate really well to people with strong placements in these signs or planets. However, my mother says giving birth to me wasn't especially traumatic for her. I mean, of course, childbirth is difficult and frightening, but she would never use the word traumatic to describe the experience. I was also a happy, contented baby. Didn't cry much or anything. Apparently I was calm and quiet.

Do you know many other Capricorn Risers who share similar birth experiences?
 
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R4VEN

Well-known member
I'm amazed that you can remember the experience of birth. My earliest memories begin around age 3-4. I can't imagine how visceral the memory experience must be since a newborn is pure openness, a fresh sponge.

I have a Saturn-Pluto conjunction conjuncting my Ascendant. I do have that Capricorn-Scorpio edge to me: I relate really well to people with strong placements in these signs or planets. However, my mother says giving birth to me wasn't especially traumatic for her. I mean, of course, childbirth is difficult and frightening, but she would never use the word traumatic to describe the experience. I was also a happy, contented baby. Didn't cry much or anything. Apparently I was calm and quiet.

Do you know many other Capricorn Risers who share similar birth experiences?
Just to clarify, my `memories' of my birth have been intuitive, but have - at quite dramatic times in my life - reached my conscious mind. It's a bit hard to describe here.

I don't know any Cap Rising people, other than those who have contributed to this forum. I think that the `difficult birth' thing is not universal for any Asc.

My youngest son has Scorpio Asc and Pluto-Sun conjunct in the 12th in Libra. He is very Scorpionic, and has always looked at everything in depth, and often symbolically, even in childhood.
As I interpret it, a Saturn-ruled Asc will have some kind of stuggle to be born, and may take that experience into their lives, until they begin to lighten up, understanding that they don't have to create obstacles at every turn.
On the other hand, a Pluto-ruled Asc grants a person depth and intensity. From my observation, those with a Pluto-ruled Asc generally have a very good bullsh*t detector, given they perceive the layers in everything, and can `feel/see' behind the surface behaviour of others.
 
I have Scorpio ASC conjunct Pluto and was born one month prematurely.
I was bullied at school but was not particularly traumatized by it; other than that I had a happy childhood with lots of friends. No traumatic events so far (except almost losing a whole finger once, hehe).

I have also always been interested in the so-called "deeper isues of existence".
 

echosent

Member
Just to clarify, my `memories' of my birth have been intuitive, but have - at quite dramatic times in my life - reached my conscious mind. It's a bit hard to describe here.

I know what you mean! :smile:

I don't know any Cap Rising people, other than those who have contributed to this forum. I think that the `difficult birth' thing is not universal for any Asc.

That's a good thing to keep in mind, that nothing is universal for any Ascendant.

My youngest son has Scorpio Asc and Pluto-Sun conjunct in the 12th in Libra. He is very Scorpionic, and has always looked at everything in depth, and often symbolically, even in childhood.
As I interpret it, a Saturn-ruled Asc will have some kind of stuggle to be born, and may take that experience into their lives, until they begin to lighten up, understanding that they don't have to create obstacles at every turn.
On the other hand, a Pluto-ruled Asc grants a person depth and intensity. From my observation, those with a Pluto-ruled Asc generally have a very good bullsh*t detector, given they perceive the layers in everything, and can `feel/see' behind the surface behaviour of others.

Very true about the ******** detector, although it has its challenges, particularly when you don't know that not everyone sees/feels/experiences in the same way, at the same time. I feel the Pluto-ASC aspect can lend itself to feelings of paranoia. You get a sense of something else, but when no one else seems to share that feeling, it can make you feel the odd one out. I think, for me, having Saturn in the mix has held me back from being more forthcoming with my intuitions on situations or people; Pluto makes me secretive, but Saturn makes it easier for me to hide my secretiveness. At least that's what I think. Maybe I'm not really fooling anyone at all.

R4VEN, thanks so much for discussing this with me. It's been very helpful.
 

echosent

Member
I have Scorpio ASC conjunct Pluto and was born one month prematurely.
I was bullied at school but was not particularly traumatized by it; other than that I had a happy childhood with lots of friends. No traumatic events so far (except almost losing a whole finger once, hehe).

I have also always been interested in the so-called "deeper isues of existence".

Perhaps the Scorpio ASC with Pluto gave you strength as well as perspective on bullies, or being bullied. I'll bet there are many people out there who share similar experiences with you, but they had a much harder time with it. I've noticed that in listening to others' experiences and sort of feeling 'casual' about it internally even when the teller is reliving a very intense (for them) moment. I feel empathy and can usually ride the memory with them, but rationally it often feels like the other person is making a mountain out of a molehill. Of course I'll never express this, since my thoughts have no bearing on their felt experience.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
I think Pluto being in her Ascendant has much to do with the influence of a 12th house Moon.
Hi Frisiangal,

Are Pluto and Moon making an aspect in your daughter's chart?

No; there is no direct link between them, yet both are aspected to Neptune in Sagittarius.
Moon close square Neptune; and the generational Neptune (exact degree) sextile Pluto.
 
Perhaps the Scorpio ASC with Pluto gave you strength as well as perspective on bullies, or being bullied. I'll bet there are many people out there who share similar experiences with you, but they had a much harder time with it. I've noticed that in listening to others' experiences and sort of feeling 'casual' about it internally even when the teller is reliving a very intense (for them) moment. I feel empathy and can usually ride the memory with them, but rationally it often feels like the other person is making a mountain out of a molehill. Of course I'll never express this, since my thoughts have no bearing on their felt experience.
I don't know. Compared to some stories I've heard, my experience of being bullied was not very intense. I do seem to "get over" some stuff more easily, but I also have a optimistic Sag Moon conjunct Uranus.
 

Glinda

Well-known member
Therese, I'm just confused as to why you have provided links to the 3 people, since none of the 3 have Pluto on their Asc natally. Was this to signify that there are those without Pluto on their Asc at birth who live difficult lives??? That goes without saying.

And I don't associate Pluto conj Asc with a difficult birth. I'd put that with a Capricorn Asc - struggle to make the transition.

I disagree that planets on the Asc can given one a `difficult and traumatic life'. There has to be a lot of other indicators in the rest of the chart for that to be so. Pluto conj Asc, especially from the 1st house, would render a person somewhat Scorpionic in approach to others and life in general - interested in the deeper issues of existence.


Umm … with a pluto on your ascendant you can die at very young age (my brother) or have a life-threatening accident sometimes (friend oaf mine) when the ascendant is afflicted by heavier transits – one thing we can generally sa is maybe that it makes you prone to be confronted "with the other side". So, It's definitely no jupiter on the ascendant.

G.

_
 
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