david starling
Well-known member
Sometimes, there IS no available solution. Saturn can only tell you to expect disaster. But, is that really Saturn's fault?
Grow up is a very vague term that can literally mean anything. I can't "grow up" because I don't even know what, if anything, it means. Does it mean get a job? Does it mean physically grow? Does it mean move out? Pay rent? I've done all of that.
As an archetype, Saturn has a very unsavory reputation:
•The Devil, "Satan, Prince of this World", from Christian scripture.
•The "Grim Reaper" , which carries Saturn's symbol, the harvest sycthe.
•The "Devourer of Children".
•The "Greater Malefic", of ancient astrology.
Are we supposed to ignore these appellations entirely, and go only with "The Wise Teacher"?
"Saturnine" is derived from the name of the planet Saturn:
•Dour, meaning relentlessly severe.
•Gloomy
•Humorless
•Melancholy
•Somber
According to the ancient Roman religion, Saturn went insane with lust for power after committing patricide, then devoured his own children for fear they would usurp his authority.
Fear is the emotion most associated with Saturn.
Oh, right. And then we have that lovely castration story involving Uranus.
I think we have to understand this metaphorically. Ancient societies were often at war with one another, or overwhelmed each other with population migrations. A big example would be the various Indo-European invasions into Europe. One one regime replaced another, the conquerors installed their own gods as rulers of the pantheon, and described other gods as losing their power and authority.
^Is all of this completely irrelevant to an understanding of what Saturn means in astrology?
You don't need to ignore them, but let's interpret them.
I don't believe in the existence of the devil or Satan. Do you, seriously?
Saturn symbolized the passage of time, as the god Chronos, from which we get our word chronology. Until recently (and in some cultures even today) infant mortality was really high. Even a child didn't have great odds of survival.
But metaphorically, the living child disappears anyway, with the passage of time, so that the young man or woman can take its place. The child is gone ("devoured") but the young adult continues.
Everybody is going to die eventually. Saturn represents that inevitable passage. It's not somehow hard luck that people die. That is the condition of being human.
Traditional astrology holds that really bad things happen to people. Saturn symbolizes this outlook, as do (to a lesser extent) Mars, the 12th, 6th, and 8th houses.
OK. So "into each life some rain must fall." Saturn says, "Bring an umbrella."
What makes you think I am "lazing around the whole day"?Grow up should be seen in the context of things being discussed. When talking of Saturn, if one knows a bit about Saturn, one would have the basic understanding at least of what "grow up" means.
Even without discussing Saturn, grow up is in the context of one's age and can be well understood. When one tells a 5 year old why they must finish their meal so they can grow up - it is clearly meant "physically" without one having to spell it out. The same grow-up said to a 30 year old lazing around the whole day or not going to work on time (context) can be understood as - mature up and act responsibly. That is what Saturn is about. It really is not that difficult if one is clear about the context.
What makes you think I am "lazing around the whole day"?
I do not agree with how many people look at Saturnian issues. I see many Saturnian people who work too hard
and who take on too much responsiblity. They get overburdened,
used by others and they get exhausted. The solution for this is not the one we read about everywhere when we read about Saturn: "work harder and be more responsible and patiently await your rewards".
Saturn represents governments and the structures of our socities and our reality. We have been
programmed with the belief that things like money, status and materialism is what matters in life and many people who don´t achieve those things will feel like failures.
The people who get the most amount of power and money are narcissists and psychopaths.
There has never before in human history been such a huge discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
I believe I have read that there are about 30-40 million trafficking victims in the world and there are many slaves who work
hard for a bowl of rice per day. People in the western society have more money than
the poor slaves, but they are programmed to work hard and to spend the extra money they have on buying
things the slaves have produced.
They feel that they
never have enough and their aim in life is to work harder and buy more things to add to their level of status
(both their work and
their consumerism yields more money to the rich). More people are starting to realize
that they feel like slaves and that their lives feel meaningless. We call this as a rise of mental health issues. I call it a process of awakening to reality.
"It is no measure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti
In the past it was easier to get ahead in the western society. Workplaces are now more demanding,
houses are more expensive and old people hold on to high positions so that it gets more
difficult for the young to climb. Many young people have studied at the university
and worked hard like they were told to and still find themselves failing at getting "succesful" and
happy in this system.
Many young people have mental and physical issues which makes
it even more difficult for them. I believe that
things are like this because the stars have aligned in order to create big changes.
Many are born with charts that gives them urges to break free. They long for something better. Like the thread starter has mentioned, human relationships are the
most important thing and more and more people are starting to feel that they lack the deep, meaningful
and loving connections that
they desire to experience with other people. People are harsh towards each other (also at this forum) and we
need more kindness.The harshness adds to the despair and depression among people.
Uranus makes us want to break free from the Saturnian prison and create new structures of the society
and our personal lives
that are aligned with our true nature. Chiron (our deepest wounding) is said to be
the rainbow bridge between Saturn and Uranus that unlocks the conscious awareness of the outer planets
(Barbara Hand)
As I see it, this world is structured in order to satisfy the needs of heartless psychopaths and narcissists and they need slaves that they can use and abuse. Instead the world should be adapted to the needs
of the most humane people among us. They are the ones who understand how we can create a wonderful world.
In the dark ages life was even more brutal than now. Which type of people do
you think improved things? The ones who repeated "this is how life is, life is unfair,
accept it and adapt to it and follow the societal rules. If you don´t like it you are too sensitive/weak or you expect too
much from this world", or was it the ones who said: "This world is sick and I can´t stand it, it has
to be changed".
Avicii had a T-square with Neptune/Uranus/Saturn opposite Jupiter/Chiron squaring Mercury. Look at the
video below. Due to his chart he was able to SEE and FEEL that this world is not ok and he longed for something better.
Despite his "success" he felt like a slave to the musical industry and he was suffering.
Have a look at his video "For a better day"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-knHXSKYY
I just don't believe that Saturn is up in the sky to make people's lives miserable.
Politically I am fairly liberal, but I also have a strong pragmatic streak.
Powerful people usually work very hard, as well. That's how they became powerful.
I live in Canada. I don't think either of us lives in a country where religion still has much control over people. Religion isn't Saturn, anyway. It's a 9th house matter.
Maybe you've got a better solution for elevating the status of poor people than has been tried to date. Blaming Saturn for social hierarchies isn't going to change them.
There are horoscope placements involving Saturn that can lead to insecurities and self-doubt. Saturn square the sun or moon, Saturn involved with Chiron come to mind.
I have natal Saturn opposite sun . It is wide, but the orb is getting closer by progression. I think it works best to view a planet opposite one's sun as one's teacher.
There are actual enslaved people on the planet today. But most hard-working low-wage earners are not slaves.
Saturn doesn't say to ignore or abandon one's inner truth. Just that if one has that sense of an inner truth, there are better vs. worse ways of pursuing it. Otherwise it just remains a pleasant dream.
If you wish to change "the system" as you construe it, I hope you are organizing with a large group of like-minded people.
I quote when you said:Waybread, in your opinion
ARE the planets themselves, as physical objects,
"making" us do things, feel things, think and believe things?
Or, is it about synchronicity and noticeable correlations?
You know the saying: "Correlation isn't necessarily Causation".
the rain is - arguably - "making" us bring an umbrellaBut, you have to learn to bring an umbrella on your own,
after getting caught out in the rain at least once.