Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

FROG said:

Obviously there is a difference in the interpretation of the Solar Return and Progressed Chart.
But I need help making these two distinct.

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SOLAR RETURN and PROGRESSED are both read WITH the NATAL
neither SOLAR RETURN nor PROGRESSED are stand alone charts

for example here's a quote from Starlinks article on our EDUCATION BOARD
HOW TO INTERPRET A SOLAR RETURN CHART

FROG said:

So here's my question.

Let's suppose
One Aspect
Mars Square Sun

A1:How would you interpret that when found in the Solar Return?

A2:And how would you interpret that when found in the Progressed Chart on the same birthday?

A3:And now please explain what causes the difference.

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FROG said:

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Second round of questions

Same Solar Return chart with outer ring of Natal Chart.
Vs Progressed Chart and outer Current Transits on birthday or day after (which is approximately the Solar Return)

Same aspect.
Sun Square Mars, between inner/outer ring, A to B, B to A, say which ring.

B1:
B1: How would you interpret that when found in the Natal to Solar Return Biwheel?

B2: And how would you interpret that when found in the Transits to Progressed BiWheel?

B3: And now please explain what causes the difference.
========
Any takers on these questions?
Thank you very very much in advance for replying.

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FROG said:

Thank you

I realize that these charts are used in biwheels for better results.

But just for simplicity, I am trying to sift out some ambiguity.

Both a solar return and a Secondary Progression are used for looking at the year ahead. But basic difference in interpretation between all solar returns and Secondary Progressions done on the same birthday, in the same town is _________________? I am looking for that answer. Except I don't want any description of how they are calculated or determined.

I have heard and read in courses and books that both represent similar material. No source says this for both. Combine sources and they do.

So I am trying to isolate the core difference.

If you need to think of each in a biwheel, to answer this, then do so.

Here's what I think the basic difference is between the Solar Return and the Secondary Progression for same time and place:

1. The Secondary Progression represents the phase of psychological development and challenges to it for the year

Whereas

2. The Solar Return presents the current conditions of the year are for the native, regardless of the inner developments.

Stated over simply --
The Solar Return addresses the outer conditions
The Secondary Progression represents the inner conditions

The SR represents the way current events of the year impact the native's life

The Secondary Progression represents the changes within oneself in reaction to the experience of the years gone by.

I could continue on how this relates in the biwheels, but to keep things simple I will pause here.
Obviously neither chart does a good job of representing the native on its own. And congruity of the character needs to be maintained among the charts.

But have I identified the difference between the two charts?

Example
Sun square Mars
1. Secondary Progression: the sense of self is at odds with one's ambition. Advice: use the conflict as catalyst for change
2'. Solar Return: this person is challenged to stand up for his/her self due to events of the year.
I purposely omitted mentioning house and sign,

in order to address the core difference

no matter what house and sign.

Am I close or far wrong?

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FROG said:

But what if you are trying to teach the basics?

What is the basic difference in what the clsecondary progression indicates as compared to the solar return? Without describng the calculation, what is the difference in meaning?

I am afar advanced from any cookbook methods, use or study.

Let's drop the question of comparing the aspect in one chart to another.

How about taking the same wheel, houses, planets, points, signs,
Now if it is a secondary progression, it should have a different meaning than if it were a solar return.
Of course it is not possible that secondary progression and solar teturn could ever match for one natal chart.

But wouldn't you consider the elements in each in a different way?

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duenderoja said:

To be honest,

I have never figured out the purpose of secondary progressions.

I have also never figured out how to read them –
the best I can do is to study the moon and sign.


So to me, they are useless.

But solar returns on the other hand are invaluable to me. With them, I can see into the future pretty reliably.

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BobZemco said:

A lot of people seem to have problems understanding progressions.

The progressed Planets are nothing more than very very slow moving transits.
Progressions are very internal in nature, meaning they're more likely to affect you mentally than physically.
That doesn't mean progressions don't affect you physically, they can,
for example a Planet progressing into the 6th House or the 6th House Ruler progressing into the 8th
or 12th House or into certain aspects with the rulers of the 6th, 8th or 12th Houses can signify an illness.

Progressions are something you do maybe once in your life, and one of the best ways to do that is to write them down. You can use a spread sheet (like I use) or a word processor or write them on a legal pad, or you can use construction paper and crayons, it doesn't really matter. Other than that, all you need is a list of your Planets and the Ascendant and MC, and an ephemeris, which you should buy, but you can also find them online.

An ephemeris will look something like this:

Date............Sun....... Moon..... Mercury...Venus
May 26 1962 04°Ge28' 26°Aq47' 20°Ge23' 03°Cn43'
May 27 1962 05°Ge25' 10°Pi51' 20°Ge22' R 04°Cn55'
May 28 1962 06°Ge23' 25°Pi05' 20°Ge16' 06°Cn07'
May 29 1962 07°Ge21' 09°Ar25' 20°Ge05' 07°Cn19'

The symbolism is "day-for-a-year" so each day after your birthday is one year of your life.

Generally, you want to look at 120 days, which is 120 years of your life. Yes, I know you're not going to live 120 years, but none of you are special. When you die, the Solar System does not grind to a halt; it continues moving. Your chart lives on, even after you die.

There are somethings you might want to know about. Is your Will contested? Does your Estate end up in Probate Court? Does the government seize your Estate? Do your children fight over it? Does your spouse remarry? Maybe you want to comeback and haunt your spouse (or protect your spouse). Do your children marry, divorce, have more children, do your grandchildren marry etc.


Will you receive any awards or accolades, or publish a book? No kidding, a guy in Australia found his grandfather's diary of life in the trenches during World War I. He published it. Guess what? It showed up in the progressions of the grandfather's natal chart.

Here's a snippet from my progressions (sorry the formatting is less than desirable):

Natal .. Position.. Action.. Age.. Date .. ..........Location .. Contact
Venus.. 04°Cn39' Sign .....19 ....Jun 13 1962... 25°Cn14'.. 9th House
Saturn .11°Aq22' Square ..19 ... Jun 13 1962 ...11°Ta17'.. Mars
Neptune 11°Sc29' Opp .....19.... Jun 13 1962 ... 11°Ta17' Mars
Mars 28°Ar29' ...Square ...22 ....Jun 16 1962 .... 28°Cn47' Venus
Uranus 28°Le37' Qu .........22 ....Jun 16 1962..... 28°Cn47' Venus
Venus 04°Cn39' Sign .......23 .....Jun 17 1962..... 29°Cn58' Leo
Mercury 20°Ge22' D ........26...... Jun 20 1962 .....11°Ge52' D Mercury
Mars 28°Ar29' Sextile ......26 ......Jun 20 1962 .....28°Ge23' Sun
Uranus 28°Le37' Sextile ....26 ..... Jun 20 1962 .... 28°Ge23' Sun
Venus 04°Cn39' SSx........ 27 ......Jun 21 1962...... 04°Le41' Venus
Sun 05°Ge13' Con........... 28 ...... Jun 22 1962 .... 05°Le52' Venus
Sun 05°Ge13' Sign ..........28 ....... Jun 22 1962..... 00°Cn18' Sign
Jupiter 10°Pi38' SSx ........28....... Jun 22 1962...... 10°Aq38' Saturn
Moon 07°Pi41' Qu ..........29....... Jun 23 1962 ...... 07°Le03' Venus
Pluto 07°Vi32' Con ........29 ...... Jun 23 1962....... 07°Le03' Venus
MC 01°Vi31' Sextile...... 29 ........Jun 23 1962....... 01°Cn15' Sun

All I've done is write out the year in which there is some contact with progressed Planets.

At age 19, my natal Venus progressed to conjunct the 9th House Cusp at 25° Cancer.

How do you interpret that?

The 9th House Cusp is Cancer ruled by my Moon in my natal 4th House. What is the 9th House? Among things, it's long journeys. 4th House is the home.

I left the United States and didn't return for about 10 years.

See? It ain't so hard.

At age 23 my Venus progressed into the Sign of Leo. I got married. Because Venus progressed into Leo? Not entirely. My natal Mercury was Stationary in the natal 7th House, then it went Retrograde and then it went direct at age 26. In reality, I was actually 25 1/2 years old when Mercury went Direct in my 7th House of Relationships.

That is one of the advantages of writing out your progressions. When you see something like that, natal Venus progressed into the 9th House then into the Sign of Leo while Mercury goes Direct, you want to actually do a chart for that time period and then also look at the transits so you can get a sense of the timing (in this case transiting Moon conjunct Ascendant).

When I was 28, natal Sun changed Signs and entered Cancer. Did I become a Cancer? No, but I did take on some of the traits of Cancer. I became more sensitive, very emotional and extremely traditional, plus I took on a few of the negative characteristics, like brooding and being way too cautious, but then I was suffering from PTSD and the effects were starting to manifest themselves in a serious way.

When my Ascendant progressed into Sagittarius, I did not become a Sagittarius, but I did take on a few traits, like being really straightforward, to the point of being very blunt, and also broadminded and quite the procrastinator.

Natal .... Position .. Action ....Age... Date ............ Location .. Contact
Asc...... 20°Sc43' ..Sextile ....90 .... Aug 23 1962 ...20°Vi41' ... Mercury
Sun..... 05°Ge13' .. Sign .......91 .... Aug 24 1962... 00°Vi33' ....Virgo
MC ......01°Vi31' ....Sextile.... 91 .... Aug 24 1962 .. 01°Cn06'... Mars
Sun.... 05°Ge13'.... House .... 92..... Aug 25 1962 .. 01°Vi31' ...10th House
MC ......01°Vi31'..... Con .......92 .... Aug 25 1962... 01°Vi31' ... Sun

There's where I exit stage left. Not because of those particular progressions, mind you, but because of that and other things going on with transits and the Anareta wants to Tango.

The other benefit to writing out your progressions is that if you don't know the houses, signs, elements and natures (and that would be about 80% of you), then you will when you're done. The elements trine, the natures oppose and square, sextiles are always Fire/Air or Earth/Water etc.

I recommend using some of the minor aspects, like the quincunx, semi-sextile and semi-square.

Often in your life you might notice periods where your relationship with your children, spouse, parents, friends, co-workers or supervisors is a little testy and irritating. I guarantee you'll always find a semi-sextile or semi-square there. And the advantage of knowing that in advance is that you can take a "time-out," give yourself a "yellow card," take a different approach or do other things to make your life and everyone else's more pleasant.

Aspect orbs for progressions are 30' to 1° maximum. In addition to aspects, Planets changing Signs, Houses or going Direct or Retrograde are very important to note. For Planets that go Direct or Retrograde, flip ahead in the ephemeris and look to see if any transiting Planets are conjunct that point, because it will be emphasized. The same is true if a progressed Planet goes Direct or Retrograde at the pre-natal eclipses or the last Moon before birth (which will either be a Full Moon or a New Moon).

What if a progressed Planet goes Direct or Retrograde at the same point where there is a transiting Eclipse or New/Full Moon for that month? I don't know, but note it and look at it in detail later. You can ignore Lunar Eclipses after 3 months, but for Solar Eclipses it'll depend on the nature of the Sign (ie 3 months for Cardinal, 6 months for Mutable and 12 months for Fixed).

After you make your list or table, look at past events and see if you can make sense of them. As I said, not everything will manifest itself in a way that you can physically see. Once you get a feel for past events, you can start looking at future events.

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Rawiri said:

Both solar returns and progressions (and various other methods) are simply timing methods, to discover WHEN something will occur that was previously identified in the natal chart.

They both show the timing of external events occurring, as well as internal - because there is no difference. A sincere change in the consciousness will bring about an external change. They may show separate events, not shown or at least not readily seen in the other method of timing. But ideally, they will confirm the event for each other. As you note, normally they would not confirm in the same way, but there are numerous ways some event can be signified.

For example, a few years ago I "flew" off a cliff and broke my back. That year, I had a primary direction of Saturn to my ascendant. This indicates some kind of harm to the physical body, and Saturn himself can signify gravity, falling etc. This identifies Saturn as important that year. In the solar return, Saturn was also found to be important, being the Lord of the Year, exalted and in the 10th House. Both these represent being "up high" quite clearly and Saturn often will cause a "rise" and then sudden fall in that position (typically career rise, but as Lord of the Year and also previously confirmed focus on physical body, that is where one would look). I was also in a Saturn sub-period in Vimshottari dasha, which had certain similar significations possible. On the exact day I broke my back, my progressed moon became exactly conjunct my 12th house cusp (Campanus). There were numerous other things showing in other timing methods too.

They showed the same theme, or same event, but in a different manner. This is typical of important events. They will show up in different timing methods but perhaps in a slightly different form. Ideally you should look for such confluence in timing methods before making a prediction.

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davidk said:

The Solar Return Chart is just for one year only and as such is just a memory after that year has passed. The Progressed Chart is an ongoing unfolding of the Birth Chart. For Secondary Progressions one day after your birth equates to your progressed chart one year later.

One could say the Solar Return is a snapshot of the year to come while the Progressed Chart is a moving chart which changes slightly , if not very much each day. As such the aspects of a progressed chart are moving aspects , possibly getting closer or further away over time. The Solar Return Chart being a snapshot does not move. This gives a different feel to the aspects in a Progressed Chart to a Solar Return Chart.

Both charts can be overlayed onto your birth chart for aspects to your natal planets.

Thanks

David

www.thebirthchart.com

Progressed Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/progressed-chart-report_tbc.php

Solar Return Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/Astrology-Chart/Astrology-Report?status=sre

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Since BOTH progressed AND Solar Return charts are based on natal chart
and cannot be calculated without a natal chart to base them on
then
neither is reliably delineated as a "stand-alone" chart
BOTH require delineation with the natal promise of the natal chart kept in mind