Astrology says that woman are submissive!?
- Thread starter fullmoonlibra
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david starling
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Profound man, seriously profound!
david starling
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Why choose to live in an illusion?
waybread
Well-known member
Sigh.....
Binaries are simple to understand. No higher-order mental activity required. But are they objectively real?
When a lot of people believe in some kind of thought-invention, we call it a cultural artifact, not objective truth. As a part of a cultural norm, binaries can be very powerful organizing principles. You know, the usual tropes: female/male, light/dark, good/evil.
It's just that binaries are invented, not discovered. In astrological terms, they do not somehow exist up there in the sky.
Binaries depend, among other things, upon your level of generalization or scale. That tiresome male-female opposition vanishes at the level of a nationality, the human species, or primates.
Here, read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_opposition
david starling
Well-known member
Are there really only two genders?
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
Ancient or traditional astrology was used in a time women were regulated or restricted, but there are many natal charts clearly depicted a woman can have strong characteristics, personalities and attributes, she can exhibit a masculine "alpha" type, even at times when it's harder for women to be equal, independent or self-reliant. In world history, there always been women who have bravery and courage, but most men in all cultures at those times needed to recognize a woman can have strengths. Sexism is still around today (in Anglo-America too) as some men treat women as inferior, expect her to be submissive or docile, and refuse her complete civil rights.
I find Aquarian women to either have gender-neutral or bi-gender qualities, same with many Aquarian men like myself (Sun/Moon in 8th). In this age of Aquarius, the genders will have less boundaries or barriers when it comes to social norms or politics. My own natal chart revealed I have strong Cancer or "feminine" sign influences, or my own gender identity as half-male/female, except I'm biologically male and only heterosexual or straight orientation. 3 indications of what kind of woman I'm attracted to is 1. Sun in Aquarius-8th, 2. Moon in Aquarius-8th (the house ruled by Scorpio-a sign of tough, rough and ready) and 3. "feminine" Venus/Eris/Ceres in fiery Aries-midheaven.
I find Aquarian women to either have gender-neutral or bi-gender qualities, same with many Aquarian men like myself (Sun/Moon in 8th). In this age of Aquarius, the genders will have less boundaries or barriers when it comes to social norms or politics. My own natal chart revealed I have strong Cancer or "feminine" sign influences, or my own gender identity as half-male/female, except I'm biologically male and only heterosexual or straight orientation. 3 indications of what kind of woman I'm attracted to is 1. Sun in Aquarius-8th, 2. Moon in Aquarius-8th (the house ruled by Scorpio-a sign of tough, rough and ready) and 3. "feminine" Venus/Eris/Ceres in fiery Aries-midheaven.
david starling
Well-known member
It's dual (cooperative partnership). It's not duel (oppositional conflict).
david starling
Well-known member
"One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do."--{Three Dog Night}
I don't think it's fair to say the Sun is the all-encompassing personality, or else we'd be falling victim to what is wrong with Sun sign astrology. If the Moon is your emotions and your emotional responses to things, I would think it's just as if not more important than the Sun. The Moon is a very personal and deep part of the personality.
Regarding this addition: "So for example, a woman who has her sun sign in capricorn has a father who has capricorn qualities and she looks for these qualities in his husband too (nice to know that this is scientifical prooven!)
But because it is the sun in this sign, she wants to fuse with his husband, she can't see herself disconnected. And that's the reason why woman have more difficulties then a man when seperating. Because men go further with their lives (their wifes are moon - related, so their personality is not affected), but women suffer more, loosing the sun is like loosing a father, loosing herself. Not knowing what is going to happen to her after the separation.."
In a sociological perspective, a woman looks for traits of her father in men (if she is heterosexual) because this was her example of what a man/husband/partner is to be like. I think women on average have a harder time separating at times because all in all we are taught to consider marriage/partnership as the end goal in life, and when it does not work out we are more crushed than the man is, because we feel that we have failed at our primary life goal. Also, if the man was the primary breadwinner, and/or takes a lot of the assets when they divorce/separate, and/or does not take responsibility for any children when they separate, the woman is undergoing very significant financial stress. Men generally go further in their lives because they are encouraged to pursue material goals and women are generally encouraged to pursue relationships with men and to bear children. It doesn't have to be this way.
Personally I don't think astrology is naturally sexist, but interpretations can be. Also, our natal charts are snapshots of the moment we are born, born in a sexist environment. If I have stressful aspects relating to relationships (and I do), I consider it to be a result of my environment and my family history, not of the universe's grand scheme to make women subservient. Perhaps there is a lesson here to acknowledge this inequity and to do something to change society, and to change for the better in upcoming generations and end the cycle of abuse.
Regarding gender, sex, and binaries, I always view this topic as sex is sex and gender is cultural. We're expected to behave (gender) a certain way based on our sex. The expectations vary per culture but worldwide the female sex is abused for their reproductive capabilities and for sexual access to their bodies. Part of the abuse is through the vehicle of gender - all designed to enforce submission. Think restrictive clothes and submissive postures of models in women's magazines for Western cultures. When naturally, our actual personalities deviate from these expectations but are repressed by culture. Astrologically, perhaps something like an afflicted Sun and/or Moon would indicate the struggle to express oneself as one truly believes one is and not from the expectations of others. I have my Moon inconjunct my MC and I have seen it said this makes one a "people pleaser," for example.
In short, it is two-pronged. Women are not naturally submissive, but because we are generally taught and sometimes forced to be, we can be. This is the self-fulfilling prophecy. It takes some self-awareness to break free.
Regarding this addition: "So for example, a woman who has her sun sign in capricorn has a father who has capricorn qualities and she looks for these qualities in his husband too (nice to know that this is scientifical prooven!)
But because it is the sun in this sign, she wants to fuse with his husband, she can't see herself disconnected. And that's the reason why woman have more difficulties then a man when seperating. Because men go further with their lives (their wifes are moon - related, so their personality is not affected), but women suffer more, loosing the sun is like loosing a father, loosing herself. Not knowing what is going to happen to her after the separation.."
In a sociological perspective, a woman looks for traits of her father in men (if she is heterosexual) because this was her example of what a man/husband/partner is to be like. I think women on average have a harder time separating at times because all in all we are taught to consider marriage/partnership as the end goal in life, and when it does not work out we are more crushed than the man is, because we feel that we have failed at our primary life goal. Also, if the man was the primary breadwinner, and/or takes a lot of the assets when they divorce/separate, and/or does not take responsibility for any children when they separate, the woman is undergoing very significant financial stress. Men generally go further in their lives because they are encouraged to pursue material goals and women are generally encouraged to pursue relationships with men and to bear children. It doesn't have to be this way.
Personally I don't think astrology is naturally sexist, but interpretations can be. Also, our natal charts are snapshots of the moment we are born, born in a sexist environment. If I have stressful aspects relating to relationships (and I do), I consider it to be a result of my environment and my family history, not of the universe's grand scheme to make women subservient. Perhaps there is a lesson here to acknowledge this inequity and to do something to change society, and to change for the better in upcoming generations and end the cycle of abuse.
Regarding gender, sex, and binaries, I always view this topic as sex is sex and gender is cultural. We're expected to behave (gender) a certain way based on our sex. The expectations vary per culture but worldwide the female sex is abused for their reproductive capabilities and for sexual access to their bodies. Part of the abuse is through the vehicle of gender - all designed to enforce submission. Think restrictive clothes and submissive postures of models in women's magazines for Western cultures. When naturally, our actual personalities deviate from these expectations but are repressed by culture. Astrologically, perhaps something like an afflicted Sun and/or Moon would indicate the struggle to express oneself as one truly believes one is and not from the expectations of others. I have my Moon inconjunct my MC and I have seen it said this makes one a "people pleaser," for example.
In short, it is two-pronged. Women are not naturally submissive, but because we are generally taught and sometimes forced to be, we can be. This is the self-fulfilling prophecy. It takes some self-awareness to break free.
craft94
Well-known member
david starling
Well-known member
In that case, Science is only real if one believes it is.
craft94
Well-known member
Not me.
I hate when people say that.
And I don't want some Freudian type contradicting me and telling me I must be repressing it or something like that.. lol
It might be true for some people but there is no one-size fits all model for these things
I know myself pretty well and what I look for in a man is actually someone to replace my father... meaning someone who's the complete opposite of my father
Ascendant-Sun aspects can also show this.
For instance, my Sun and Ascendant (and MC!) are trine so it's very easy for me to "be myself"
But someone with Sun square Ascendant may have a harder time with this.
david starling
Well-known member
There's an entrenched theory that woman are attracted to men with the Sun in their Mars-sign, whereas men are attracted to women with the Sun in their Venus-sign.
Using the example of sexism and gender as a social construct - I think it is important in these types of cases to acknowledge that something like gender is cultural, however, the impact of these intangible concepts has a material consequence. For example, women are not naturally inclined to wear dresses and to be submissive. However, these kind of immaterial ideas have material consequences, such as domestic violence.
Gender is a social construct and is not "real," but sexism can be proven with statistics, proving that is real. Race is a social construct and is not "real," but racism has material consequences - genocide, assault, denial of resources, etc.
Science is a process and method of gathering evidence and testing hypotheses. Perception is subjective. However, largely held beliefs have material consequences. People form societies and rely on each other and create rules that large bodies of people follow in order to maintain some sort of predicability and order. So our perceptions are not generally much out of line with the societies we live in. We are social creatures and products of our environments, so we are not truly that unique.
david starling
Well-known member
I believe it goes deeper than that--"Reality" itself is fundamentally an agreed-upon Paradigm. Personally, I'm expecting the current Paradigm to change over to a new one, for an Astrologically-defined reason.
craft94, I certainly don't mean to sound fatalistic as if it is inevitable. I myself don't want to end up with someone like my father as well. I just mean to say it is your first example of someone in that partner role and we unconsciously take in these messages as we grow up. We certainly have free will and make our own choices about who to engage with, and have the ability to reflect on what we want in a relationship as adults.
Uranus in Taurus?
david starling
Well-known member
Much deeper and MUCH longer lasting: Age of Aquarius. Pluto in Aquarius should trigger the gradual shift.
Oddity
Well-known member
Astrology is its own system. If you give it a heavy overlay of psychology, you're simply using it to do psych with a veneer of astrology. And arguably doing a disservice to both fields.
There are a lot of things astrologers can see that psychologists can't (like Mercury ruling trans everything), so we don't need to repeat those old chestnuts like women will invariably marry their fathers. Some will, sure. But a lot won't.
Generalisations and statistics don't hold up well when you've got a person and their chart sitting right in front of you.
There are a lot of things astrologers can see that psychologists can't (like Mercury ruling trans everything), so we don't need to repeat those old chestnuts like women will invariably marry their fathers. Some will, sure. But a lot won't.
Generalisations and statistics don't hold up well when you've got a person and their chart sitting right in front of you.
Personally I find psychological astrologers and social workers turned astrologers like Donna Cunningham very insightful, but to each their own.