Morality of Predicting Death?

Paul_

Account Closed
Tim

Thank you for your moderation, I feel we have been keeping you far too busy.

I mean this only for myself, and only as advice, but I have a very thick skin, I can take some critical posts and some character attacks. I am somewhat used to them.

It may save you inconvenience to let personal attacks against me stand. I am of the opinion that they better serve my arguments anyway.

It is your call, as always, but I'm not feeling under threat or hurt or bullied, I am not emotionally invested in the topic enough for that. If you want a breather, you can ignore attacks against me - if something strong comes up that I think is unwarranted I will ask you to apply your judgement as usual.

Paul
 

waybread

Well-known member
So Paul, without qualification, but as a set of concise take-home principles, can you itemize our areas of agreement?

Let's cut to the chase, shall we?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Actually, what I meant to describe by "accidental" was the magnitude of seriousness for prediction. It's not an absolute truth that predicting death is bad for everyone.

Perhaps in a world where predicting death were commonplace, then all would have a more common sense attitude :smile:

i.e. death is inevitable

how interesting to speculate as to when
I agree that death is serious, but you can't say that it's more serious to everyone than anything else, ever. You just can't know that.

Just as it's not possible to know the damage and upset an horary astrologer may cause by predicting that the querent is likely to fail their impending exams

I totally 100% disagree that it's in a league by itself, though. In fact I don't understand how you can hold that view.

Prediction of death is definitely not in a league of its own - it's simply a prediction of a more specific time for an event that is inevitable from the moment of birth.

You have to admit that there are other things astrologers can predict that can potentially harm an unstable querent; why are you not also for banning those things?
Indeed there are and I have mentioned one example.
 

Marinka

Well-known member
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

Are you up to a new, on-topic challenge?

Howbeit you and I (and everyone else so inclined) develop a platform of areas of agreement? I copied and pasted a few of them last night. Am I correct in saying:

1. We both believe in a ban on death prediction on Internet forums, presumably including this one.

2. We both believe that the amateur astrologer's first duty is study, before even contemplating predicting death for the native in a face-to-face consultation. [Whether s/he takes the next step is off the table for the moment.]

You read my posts in detail. Do you see other areas of agreement (such that your principal quarrel seems to be that I didn't properly get your position?)

We know about the disagreement. Let's momentarily hit the "pause" button.


Just for the record - I am not in favor of any ban although, the site owners are the final arbitrators of this decision as it is their site. IMHO, this is starting to remind me of "book burning".

It is not my place to decide what the first duty of an astrology student is.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Marinka, I don't know what comment of mine could have been perceived as "attacking" but no doubt the mod knows best.

Nobody is book burning. I have said repeatedly that if people wish to study death prediction techniques and apply them to deceased people, that's fine by me. I seriously question the wisdom of applying them to living people. There are books out there on death prediction, notably the one by Richard Houck, who was incorrect in both the time and manner of his own death. That one might be worth considering.

That death is inevitable is a given. I don't think that some people on this thread have a clear idea of the physical and emotional process of dying-- which can take a while and be humiliating and painful for the patient. I don't think people have come to terms with the collateral impacts of death on the survivors. Otherwise I cannot fathom why they should post as though death prediction in real time for real people were merely an intellectual exercise.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Nobody is book burning

Book burning can be EMBLEMATIC of a harsh and oppressive regime which is seeking to censor or silence an aspect of a nation's culture.

Emotively-termed, 'death clock prediction' IS an aspect of not only European national culture but also of Vedic as well as Indian national culture.
I have said repeatedly that if people wish to study death prediction techniques and apply them to deceased people, that's fine by me
Those standards are ones you follow - others are entitled to abide by their own personal standards
I seriously question the wisdom of applying them to living people.
I seriously question the wisdom of NOT applying them to LIVING people. Obviously, by definition, only the deaths of living people ARE predictable

'Predicting' the death of an already deceased person is obviously not a prediction

There are books out there on death prediction, notably the one by Richard Houck, who was incorrect in both the time and manner of his own death. That one might be worth considering
Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes we have an opportunity to 'edit them out'.
Due to being deceased of course, Richard Houck cannot now revise/edit that particular prediction.
However just because Houck was wrong on one prediction does not mean he was therefore wrong on ALL predictions

- neither does it mean that the predictive method he used was incorrect, others using those methods got it right.
Houck simply made a mistake.

Perhaps we now need to ban ALL prediction because once, one astrologer made one mistake and inaccurately predicted some event
:smile:

Meanwhile, there are indeed 'books out there' on death prediction - Vettius Valens THE ANTHOLOGY for one -
AND due to the kindness of Professor Riley available for a FREE, gratis and for nothing read at
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf
That death is inevitable is a given. I don't think that some people on this thread have a clear idea of the physical and emotional process of dying-- which can take a while and be humiliating and painful for the patient. I don't think people have come to terms with the collateral impacts of death on the survivors. Otherwise I cannot fathom why they should post as though death prediction in real time for real people were merely an intellectual exercise.
On the contrary - we all gain a clear idea of the physical and emotional process of dying because it begins when one realises one's own mortality.

For all, the process of dying begins at birth that's why death is promised in the natal chart
for some the process of dying ends within hours of birth
for others the process of dying takes days, weeks, months, years
and in many cases the process of dying continues on for decades
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Well, I congratulate you, JA. My email inbox showed several additional posts (which I read in that form) that have since been deleted.

I don't think you have nearly addressed my points. Never mind. Kassandra was right, notwithstanding the curse that nobody believed her.

1. I know the "book burning" metaphor. I am hardly a "harsh and repressive regime;" merely one woman standing up for ethical principles that mostly have to do with protecting vulnerable people. Is this what bothers you?

2. Since "book burning" is a metaphor, perhaps you're OK with other metaphors, like the metaphor of "death-clock" for predicting the timing of death. We use the word "clock" in metaphors all the time that refer to a broader time-frame than seconds, minutes, and hours. For example, "the clock is ticking" as a metaphor for time constraints. At some point that can be measured in literal clock time, a person will expire, moreover.

3. On the matter of on-line death prediction, JA, please refer to my responses to Eternal Autumn. A dying person isn't going to come back and post whether you were right or wrong, so any education value is lost. ("Hey, there, JA: this is my ghost speaking..... ) If you were wrong and she comes back and says so, you might have given her a terrible fright for no reason. Or her loved ones, if she tells her family.

I have used the word "post-diction." Take a chart of a deceased person and her family, as Alice did with Princess Di, and run the diagnostic on it. You could learn a lot from them.

3. The Houck case is fascinating. Surely you are by now also aware of the "Jeane Dixon effect," whereby correct astrological predictions are touted, and incorrect ones are discretely ignored. So let me ask you again, what percentage of error in predicting death is acceptable to you? Two out of five? Three out of four?

Your slippery slope argument about banning all prediction is misplaced, and I have addressed this type of debate fallacy in previous posts.

4. I've got the Valens translation, thanks. Fortunately we don't live in his era. When Valens wrote, chattel slavery was perfectly legal, Christians could be dismembered as a form of public amusement, there was no democracy except in a limited way for elite males, women had hardly any rights, and the average life expectancy at infancy was around 30 years old. Question: have you used Valens's techniques yourself to predict length-of-life?

5. I have previously shown on demographic grounds why death prediction from a natal chart simply cannot work. If you re-read my arguments on this point, perhaps you could respond to them.

Question, JA: how much time have you spent recently around dying people or recent survivors of a loved one's death? Have you ever been within a nick of dying yourself? What did that feel like, if so? [deleted possibly trolling comments - Moderator]
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
1. I know the "book burning" metaphor. I am hardly a "harsh and repressive regime;" merely one woman standing up for ethical principles that mostly have to do with protecting vulnerable people. Is this what bothers you?
Harsh and repressive regimes are composed of individuals
2. Since "book burning" is a metaphor, perhaps you're OK with other metaphors, like the metaphor of "death-clock" for predicting the timing of death. We use the word "clock" in metaphors all the time that refer to a broader time-frame than seconds, minutes, and hours. For example, "the clock is ticking" as a metaphor for time constraints. At some point that can be measured in literal clock time, a person will expire, moreover.

3. On the matter of on-line death prediction, JA, please refer to my responses to Eternal Autumn. A dying person isn't going to come back and post whether you were right or wrong, so any education value is lost. ("Hey, there, JA: this is my ghost speaking..... ) If you were wrong and she comes back and says so, you might have given her a terrible fright for no reason. Or her loved ones, if she tells her family

3. The Houck case is fascinating. Surely you are by now also aware of the "Jeane Dixon effect," whereby correct astrological predictions are touted, and incorrect ones are discretely ignored. So let me ask you again, what percentage of error in predicting death is acceptable to you? Two out of five? Three out of four?

Your slippery slope argument about banning all prediction is misplaced, and I have addressed this type of debate fallacy in previous posts.
On the contrary, if, as you term it, 'death clock prediction' is immoral on the grounds that it may upset the recipient of that 'death clock prediction'
THEN obviously the question arises as to whether or not ANY form of astrological prediction is immoral since any form of astrological prediction may indeed cause upset to the querent.

4. I've got the Valens translation, thanks. Fortunately we don't live in his era. When Valens wrote, chattel slavery was perfectly legal, Christians could be dismembered as a form of public amusement, there was no democracy except in a limited way for elite males, women had hardly any rights, and the average life expectancy at infancy was around 30 years old. Question: have you used Valens's techniques yourself to predict length-of-life?
Unfortunately chattel slavery remains evident in today's world. Perhaps you have encountered the phrase: 'Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose'....

EVIDENCE

PORTRAITS OF THE NEW CHATTEL SLAVERY: WSJ Artist Exposes How the Other 20th Lives’ By Donald Vandelay, on 16 January 2013


QUOTE

'…..This month a brilliant artist at The Wall Street Journal has broken new ground in the flourishing investigative journalism market by going where cameras could not. You can click here to see these images in their original context, alongside a breathtaking column by Laura Saunders. Witness the pain of these Americans’ faces, as the fruits of their brow sweat are ripped away....'
http://www.chronicle.su/news/portra...-wsj-artist-exposes-how-the-other-20th-lives/


'….There are 27 million people in slavery today. They are forced to work without pay, under threat of violence, and they’re unable to walk away. You can find them in brothels, factories, mines, farm fields, restaurants, construction sites and private homes. Many slaves have been tricked by traffickers who lure vulnerable people with false promises of good jobs or education. Some slaves are marched to work at gunpoint. Others are trapped by phony debts from unscrupulous moneylenders. Slavery is illegal everywhere, but it happens nearly everywhere...'


Modern day slaves are malnourished as well as brutally treated, and for those who are unable to escape, their lives are predictably short
5. I have previously shown on demographic grounds why death prediction from a natal chart simply cannot work. If you re-read my arguments on this point, perhaps you could respond to them.
I have previously responded to those arguments. Natal chart 'death clock prediction' clearly does work on demographic grounds.
Question, JA: how much time have you spent recently around dying people
or recent survivors of a loved one's death?
Since day one, because anyone I have ever met is either dead or dying
- that's because death is inevitable
:smile:
Have you ever been within a nick of dying yourself? What did that feel like, if so? [deleted possibly trolling comments - Moderator]
In my opinion, the matter is irrelevant to whether 'death clock prediction' is immoral or not
I have used the word "post-diction." Take a chart of a deceased person and her family, as Alice did with Princess Di, and run the diagnostic on it. You could learn a lot from them.
Thread title concerns Pre-diction not Post-diction
 

waybread

Well-known member
Sorry, JA but I am not part of a repressive regime according to any global standard. I live in Canada, which despite its flaws, is one of the more enlightened nations on the planet. I clarified my full awareness of the human trafficking issue-- which is totally off-topic for this thread. My point being that your appeal to Valens doesn't address the fact that ethical norms have changed since his day.

I think you've admitted that you've not had much direct experience with friends', neighbours', and family members' death and dying. As you move through life and gain this experience, you may come to realize the morality issue much differently. Right now, it seems to be abstract for you. Assuredly, dying does not exist in the abstract for suffering patients and their families.

I don't see where you addressed my demographic arguments. I have also addressed your untenable slippery slope arguments about prediction more generally ("If you state A, then you must believe N,") as a logical fallacy.

Bottom line, folks:

1. This debate is about individual amateur astrologers' desire to predict death for living individuals vs. the moral duty we have as members of the human race to protect vulnerable people.

2. To strike any sort of responsible balance, we rely on mostly-volunteer moderators who cannot be on-line 24/7, and who cannot pre-scan erroneous or harmful posts.

This still looks like a no-brainer to me.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
My point being that your appeal to Valens doesn't address the fact that ethical norms have changed since his day.
That's your opinion, however there are cultures worldwide such as India, China where 'death clock prediction' as you term it IS the ethical norm.
I think you've admitted that you've not had much direct experience with friends', neighbours', and family members' death and dying.
You think so? Where's the evidence?
As you move through life and gain this experience, you may come to realize the morality issue much differently. Right now, it seems to be abstract for you. Assuredly, dying does not exist in the abstract for suffering patients and their families
Death is not unusual and all inhabitants of this planet are continually dying as well as continually being born. Death is a fact of life. Yet you continually give the impression that you believe that death is a terrible event.
I don't see where you addressed my demographic arguments.
If you would be specific with a summary of those then that would be useful - a sentence would do
I have also addressed your untenable slippery slope arguments about prediction more generally ("If you state A, then you must believe N,") as a logical fallacy.
There is no slippery slope only plain common sense.
i.e.
You claim 'death clock prediction' is immoral on the grounds that predicting a querent's death may cause them to feel upset
yet you appear unaware that - to use your own terminology - it's a no-brainer obviously that predicting ANY event COULD potentially upset a querent

Bottom line, folks:

1. This debate is about individual amateur astrologers' desire to predict death for living individuals vs. the moral duty we have as members of the human race to protect vulnerable people.
That's not the OP's question. The OP makes no mention of the status of individual amateur astrologers and although obviously vulnerable people require protection, the debate necessarily includes those who ask for 'death clock prediction' but may be denied such a prediction on the grounds of immorality
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)

If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?

Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
That is the topic of this thread, as intended/stated by the OP :smile:
2. To strike any sort of responsible balance, we rely on mostly-volunteer moderators who cannot be on-line 24/7, and who cannot pre-scan erroneous or harmful posts.

This still looks like a no-brainer to me.
This thread and all threads on this forum are moderated regularly, judging from recent comments posted by moderators
 

waybread

Well-known member
Sigh....

JA, if I repeatedly ask a question and you repeatedly side-step it, conclusions can be drawn from it. You don't have to like my conclusions, but if not, by all means, show me your evidence on this one.

I have never said with no qualification that " believe that death is a terrible event.

Sometimes the actual death is a blessing for the patient and, to be honest, for the family care-givers. But not always. I repeatedly distinguish between death and dying. As I said to Caprising recently, I have metaphysical beliefs that hopefully will see me through my inevitable death. But not everyone is like this.

For example, I had a friend (we've since lost touch) who is a RN and who invited me to visit her mother in the hospital where she worked. The mother was in a late stage of dying of cancer. This formerly robust and beautiful woman was a gray skeleton of her former self. She was so afraid of dying in her sleep that she taught herself to sleep with her eyes open. I stayed with the mother for a while, as she lapsed in and out of sleep/consciousness with her eyes open.

So yes, some people are terrified of death-- or certain types of death.

I also think of my now-deceased neighbour with lupus: a little spitfire of a woman even in her final illness, who was always impeccably dressed even as her lung capacity dwindled to 5% and she was constantly on oxygen. In Canada's western mountains, there is a lot of old lumber slag burning going on at certain times of year, and she suffered terribly from the pervasive smoke. Once we invited her for dinner with other friends (her final time) and she tried so hard to enjoy herself, but just couldn't and had to be taken home early in real distress. Her hoped-for outing was physically painful and emotionally humiliating for her.

My father got a serious cancer with 0 recovery odds. He didn't fear death, and indeed told me that he seriously considered suicide as a way out of a prolonged dying experience, but decided against it because most of the estate he left for my mother was tied up in life insurance. It would have been voided in the event of suicide. He lived 18 months after his initial diagnosis in extreme discomfort when the cancer spread: an autopsy revealed a major tumour that hadn't been removed. I saw a confident, successful man at the top of his career endure the erosion of his body and self-esteem.

Did these experiences scare me about my own mortality in some way? No. I felt deeply sorry for these people, but I didn't transfer their experiences onto myself. But these episodes plus others I recall convince me that proponents of death prediction who have been sheltered from death and dying have no idea what the human side of their calculations really means.

[deleted by request reference to another Forum member that could be misunderstood - Moderator]

Nobody here has come on record arguing that astrologers who predict death at a minimum get some type of professional credentials, at the level mandated even for orderlies and nurse's aides in many jurisdictions.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
JA, just to address another of your points.

If we accept that astrological death prediction is "normed" in a few other societies like India and China, that in itself is not evidence that it is a good idea.

Their ethical standards are evolving, shown most recently by India beginning to take a serious look at the abuses of women and girls. At one time, suttee was perfectly legal, as was marriage of girl children--who might then face a lifetime in the "widow's house" with some of them having to support their house-mates through prostitution. The caste system condemned hundreds of millions of "untouchables."

Just because a traditional society has some long-standing traditions doesn't mean they are ethical in today's world, and progressive people in India recognize this and work to change their society.

Similarly, do we want to hold up China as a paragon of moral virtue? You've written strongly against repressive regimes. You've written strongly about abortion, and in China, there is no "too late" for an abortion. Today China has all kinds of problems with corruption in government, some leading to the collapse of buildings that kill children. Dissidents in China point out these problems to western media-- at great risk to themselves. Simply because a particular practice is common in China doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

As you continually misread my response to your slippery-slope argument about "any" type of prediction, I see no point in fueling this particular flame; except to say that obviously some types of "upsets" cause people deep shock and fear, whereas others are frequent and low-order. As you read more charts for people, you will see this. And I'll let you do your own homework on the demography question-- you'll find it if you scroll back a few pages.
 
In this discussion between Brennan and Johnston it brings out the fact that in India it was so taboo to speak or ask an astrologer about a relationship, marriage, courtship, etc., that unlike western astrologers those in India would get up and walk away when the topic came up.

But there was no problem discussing or consulting the astrologer in India about death.:surprised:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theastrologypodcast/astrologypodcast-ep009.mp3

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/07/26/hellenistic-and-indian-astrology/
.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
In this discussion between Brennan and Johnston it brings out the fact that in India it was so taboo to speak or ask an astrologer about a relationship, marriage, courtship, etc., that unlike western astrologers those in India would get up and walk away when the topic came up.

But there was no problem discussing or consulting the astrologer in India about death.:surprised:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theastrologypodcast/astrologypodcast-ep009.mp3

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/07/26/hellenistic-and-indian-astrology/
.
Very interesting - thanks for that :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
In this discussion between Brennan and Johnston it brings out the fact that in India it was so taboo to speak or ask an astrologer about a relationship, marriage, courtship, etc., that unlike western astrologers those in India would get up and walk away when the topic came up.

Oh, great. So by JA's reasoning, we should follow this example.

Actually, we westerners get requests all the time from people born in India to talk about their marriage prospects.
 
Waybread the audio is over an hour!

You couldn't have possibly have listened as Forum note the last time I posted with the website and the time Waybread posted!

You could take the time to listen and learn from this discussion instead of run so fast on the keyboard appearing that 'no matter what anyone says I'm Not moving'!

This is Not the type of student of astrology I want to be:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=ggpOUqzNF8H7igKPjIHwDg&ved=0CEQQ9QEwCg

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh, great. So by JA's reasoning, we should follow this example.

Actually, we westerners get requests all the time from people born in India to talk about their marriage prospects.

Waybread the audio is over an hour!

You couldn't have possibly have listened as Forum note the last time I posted with the website and the time Waybread posted!

You could take the time to listen and learn from this discussion instead of run so fast on the keyboard appearing that 'no matter what anyone says I'm Not moving'!

This is Not the type of student of astrology I want to be:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=ggpOUqzNF8H7igKPjIHwDg&ved=0CEQQ9QEwCg

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
'twas just one hour nine minutes after you posted the link to the discussion :smile:
 

Mandy

Well-known member
Dear Waybread,

I want to express my sincere condolences for the recent passing of your dear friends. I thank you again for sharing your real-life and profound stories with us. They certainly touch my heart and mind. In terms of their relevance to this thread, I also can relate, both, experientially and evidentially. Death is one of those life facts that we learn from an early age, but people often find that no amount of knowledge can prepare them for the shock and the adjustment that inevitably follows. Even the process of greiving often does not follow a linear pattern and it is possible for grieving to start too early or even needlessly (as we have highlighted) to detriment. Whatever death is it cannot be separated from those who are affected, and this is apparently shown in astrology also. The question of morality about death prediction is not concerned with a scientific and objective view of death, as some posters have highlighted, it is concerned with how such news from astrology may affect all the different humans who consult it. If we would not consider every human the same when it comes to sitting for one's child, then we should not consider every human the same when it comes to the controlled delivery of uncontrolled information. Death can unpredictably elicit fear and sometimes fear is worse than the event itself, as many anxious people will tell you. It still seems on many fronts like a no brainer to me too.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Thank you, Mandy!

In reflecting on this thread a little while ago, it seems to me that a major issue is that death (on the earth plane) is not only final, total, and absolute; but human beings don't get a dress rehearsal for it. If dying doesn't go well, we don't get to stop the video, hit "rewind," and then replay it differently. Some people may survive a near-death experience, but most of us don't, and then who can say whether a near miss at Time A confers a happier sort of death at Time T? This makes it nearly impossible for a major goof or show of insensitivity by an astrologer to be remediated.

Also, I truly don't buy the comparable with Indian astrology that posits: "If it's part of the Hindu cultural tradition then it is OK as part of a western Internet forum." Or more mystifyingly yet, that if we don't somehow allow death prediction by rank amateurs on this forum, this is a sign of disrespect against the astrologers of India or the Indian people.

This "logic" truly does not compute. Astrology in India recently got a boost from a judge who declared astrology was part of an ancient Indian cultural tradition. But if you unpack that tradition, it requires professionals to engage in massive amounts of study and attention to a religious faith that few westerners adopt. Their tradition has nothing to do with a bunch of amateurs on an Internet forum. It is actually a big piece of hubris to assume that participants on this Internet forum (usually anonymous amateurs) are somehow the equal of a Vedic professional working in a very different context.
 
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