Does Pluto Rule/Co-Rule Scorpio?

[StillOne]

Does Pluto rule/co-rule Scorpio or does only Mars rule Scorpio?

Please elaborate as you see fit but also try and keep your opinion limited to one powerful post!

Do you have any planets natally in Scorpio? Any planetary aspect to Pluto natally or in transit you'd care to mention? Any particular belief, theory, study, technique etc. to support your opinion?

Since it seems such a recurring topic, maybe the Mods could consider making this a sticky so we can get a lot of participation!

[Note: since these discussions about which planet rules what usually turns into a knock-down drag out fight between traditional and modern astrologers, it's in the Forum's best interest not to make these recurring rulership questions a sticky - Moderator]

[astralrabbit]

Mars in Scorpio is wicked sexy right~
However, Mars slays and does not care about what is left; only that the blood has been released and that the flesh no longer consumes the spirit;
Where as Pluto takes the blood and fertilizes the earth, and renews the spirit after it has experienced the depths of experience. IMO, Mars is Pluto's soldier.

Those that I observe with Mars in Scorpio; I see (I mean their energy of thought and spirit) in their expression, that longing to conque,r but much more tactical in nature; meaning they are studying how to cut and disable you but none the less it is martial in nature.

A person that is heavily influenced by Pluto, completely breaks down the Psyche and creates something new from it before you are even aware.
The energy is much different.

[acmicasa]

A person that is heavily influenced by Pluto, completely breaks down the Psyche and creates something new from it before you are even aware.
The energy is much different.

That's true... I know what its like to have pluto and ascendant in scorpio

[Bunraku]

What's up with this poll? Doesn't modern astrology include Mars as a co-ruler? Why completely kick Mars out?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Bunraku

What's up with this poll?

Doesn't modern astrology include Mars as a co-ruler?
Why completely kick Mars out?

Exactly ~ there's another modern astrology option
that includes Mars as co-ruler
excluding Mars entirely is extreme modern astrology
the vast majority of modern astrologers include Mars
Mars has ruled Scorpio for thousands of years

e.g.

Originally Posted by waybread

StillOne,
I couldn't vote on your poll,
because I view Pluto as the modern ruler of Scorpio, a
nd Mars as the traditional ruler.
I think both have value.

Also, how do you ensure that nobody votes more than once?
(I have my suspicions....

[Vyri]

Astral Rabbit et all.
Have a bit of Mars in third in critical Scorpio/Square Exalted Pluto in the 12th; Mutual reception harmony; to relate of Pluto/Mars effectiveness upon an individual's experience as sign ruler-ship as well as a nation of impressionable youth politically.
During the era of the 50's when some of us baby boomers were born, Pluto was in Leo. Some astrologer's give Leo as the exalted sign for Pluto some don't. When abortion was coming into its political world effective
beginnings, about the decade of the 1970's, Pluto was receiving it's own translation to it's underpinnings. Not to say that Pluto should not be considered beneficial in this sign each consideration should be considered as individual, but Pluto can translate its effectiveness not only on a very personal level but has its greatest trials demonstrated on a national scale. A directive motivation is the process of any trans-Saturn planet such as Pluto to achieve "change." Michael R. Myers author of the "Handbook for the Humanistic-Astrologer" hails Pluto as a Cosmic Integrator. Pg. 216 - 218, A Dyad of re-focalization.
What Saturn is to the personal-social identity of a person, Pluto is to his or her spiritual-universal identity. On the one hand Pluto may be seen as a higher octave of Saturn, and on the other Saturn's arch rival. Saturn acts as the structuring agent within the realm of particulars, while Pluto restructures and redefines what has been broken down and dissolved by Uranus and Neptune, re-focalizing the consciousness that animated the old Saturn forms within a more transcendental and universal frame of reference. In a way Pluto does the same thing as Saturn, only in a more universal and less ego centered way.
It was a personal period for me. I was in my 20's at the time when Pluto in Leo became effective in its transits by the other heavier trans-Saturn planets.
I don't think Pluto should be overlooked. In a Mythological reference or as just a satellite of Neptune. Although Pluto might have an extremely eccentric orbit and be considered by the wigs as not a planet at all I find its placement in the individual nativities whom effect universal change quite meaningful therefore a planet to be considered transcendentally.
Pluto rules Scorpio with Mars

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Initially I had more choices but figured I'd make it a simple yes or no.
I realize that it may be oversimplified

and I'm not discrediting Mars as co-ruler.

I have tried to adjust the poll answers but can't without moderation.

Create a new poll if you wish.
I take it you believe they have equal weight in matter.

We can possibly make the assumption that a Yes answer be also for those that include Mars as co-ruler
since a No answer would eliminate Pluto altogether.

Better to modify your poll with moderator assistance
since you are not discrediting Mars as co-ruler

[JUPITERASC]

I have requested moderators to modify the poll

[astralrabbit]

Originally Posted by Bunraku

What's up with this poll? Doesn't modern astrology include Mars as a co-ruler? Why completely kick Mars out?

Evolutionary thought~
We have a plethora of testimonies since Pluto's discovery to bear witness to the correlation of the Planetary energy with the sign of Scorpio; so naturally it would certainly appear that it is a subject that needs to be debated and that will need further intellectual analysis.
I do personally look at the Mar's position and observe how it relates to where the sign of Scorpio sits within the chart; however it is fair enough to say that there are several different ways that any one's Mars can hold sway to that piece of the pie.

[Tessie]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Does Pluto rule Scorpio or does Mars? ... Please elaborate as you see fit but also try and keep your opinion limited to one powerful post!

Broadly, traditionalists accept Mars, and have an accompanying philosophy which limits them to this view. Modernists have an alternative philosophy which does not justify this limitation. A further subset, the 'eclectics,' recruit asteroids, octaves, etc. into rulerships to get the answers. And then we have the different overlays, Chinese and Vedic, for example, which use a completely different system of signs and planets to describe that same quality about a person which would be otherwise represented by Mars/Pluto. When searching for the true answer, in general, it pays to falsify. If someone selected planetary rulerships at complete random trials, would one be able to produce delineations that ring astoundingly true for the native, if not even uncover some truths missed by the traditional/modern/eclectic/Chinese/Vedic delineation?

A true answer is one which stands up to falsification. If it does not, it loses the statistical effect of being true, meaning the cause of the effect is anybody's guess. If you want the objective (tested) true answer you can find it by testing for falsification. If you want the subjective 'true' answer, you can find it on the personal opinions of others.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Nah thanks though, I'll leave mine as is.

So you reject Mars entirely in common with extreme modern astrologers

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Better to modify your poll with moderator assistance
since you are not discrediting Mars as co-ruler

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

I have requested moderators to modify the poll

The poll has been modified!

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

So you reject Mars entirely in common with extreme modern astrologers

Umm, seriously? I certainly don't reject Mars as an astrological influence. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with me completely rejecting Mars...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

We can simply set up a new poll.

However, if people wish me to adjust this poll I will.
Let me know how you should like it to read.

and yet moments ago you said

Originally Posted by StillOne

Nah thanks though, I'll leave mine as is. I think it serves a purpose.

If you read the posts, it is clear the total exclusion of Mars is remarked on

EDIT
for clarification

i.e.
the total exclusion of Mars from rulership of specifically scorpio

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

and yet moments ago you said

If you read the posts, it is clear the total exclusion of Mars is remarked on

Umm... we all have Mars in any scope right? Therefore, Mars can never be excluded...

[Bunraku]

Can anyone here demonstrate, with charts, pictures, graphs, and all, their use of Pluto as a ruler of a sign?

[horarymaster]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Does Pluto rule/co-rule Scorpio or does only Mars rule Scorpio? For simplicity, I made the poll a yes or no question. If you believe that Pluto and Mars co-rule Scorpio please select Yes (I'm not trying to exclude Mars as co-ruler of Scorpio).

Please elaborate as you see fit but also try and keep your opinion limited to one powerful post!

Do you have any planets natally in Scorpio? Any planetary aspect to Pluto natally or in transit you'd care to mention? Any particular belief, theory, study, technique etc. to support your opinion?

Since it seems such a recurring topic, maybe the Mods could consider making this a sticky so we can get a lot of participation!

StillOne:

Thanks for this survey. Will it be useful ? Time will tell ! My vote went for a combined Pluto/Mars rulership with Scorpio.

Mars and Pluto are partners in crime, when you look at it, carefully.

People who have either Aries or Scorpio prominent in their charts share a common denominator with the planet Mars.

The Martian urge to complete is quite apparent in both signs.

I have known quite a few Aries and Scorpio woman in my time and they are sisters of sorts; both ruled by Mars and cut from the same cloth.

Pluto, however, is much more closed circuited and secretive than Mars, hence Scorpio's tendency to be defensive and less obvious.

But then, Aries is fire and Scorpion is water, so that's why.

Mars is also a higher octave of Pluto, however, and both represent the attack mechanism, or urge to fight.

Mars works very well with Scorpio, though, and feels at home in Scorpio. Those of you who have natal Mars is Scorpio should feel particularly connected, especially if you have natal Pluto in Leo.

Does Pluto "exalt" in Leo, though. Big question !

We know that Mars is exalted in Capricorn, but given Pluto's transit, so far (almost half of the sign has been completed, or 14 degree Capricorn), Pluto has a LOT of problems residing in Capricorn, so far, and therefore, Pluto is likely NOT exalted in Capricorn.

The reason Capricorn does not like Pluto is because Saturn has a difficult time submitted to Pluto's higher authority and influence.

Saturn knows well that Pluto will give it a sh*t-kicking, and that Pluto will get the last word.

The effect of Pluto in Capricorn is similar to the transit of Pluto conjunct Saturn.

Saturn knows well that it will be completely overhauled by Pluto, by the time Pluto is finished.

Bottom line ? Everyone "fears" Pluto, even Saturn ! LOL

If you've been through a major Pluto transit, you **** well know that !

What is the exaltation of Pluto, then ?

I am not sure. I think that I would need to think about that.

Regarding Pluto being exalted in Virgo, I have this position of Pluto natally and I don't think that my generation is that particularly lucky or blessed.

I once attended my high school reunion and nobody there seemed to be that fortunate or exalted, to be honest.

Jobs and work have always sucked, family and children are difficult, health is not always good and computers suck, too, along with smart phones !

I do admit that I am very obsessed with my work (PL in Virgo) and career and I am also very health conscious.

The problem is... Pluto is not a very likeable fellow. So, yeah, lets give Pluto to Scorpio, since nobody likes Scorpio either ! LOL

Maybe they both..... deserve each other ! LOL


-HM

[Therese]

It's an interesting question. Personally, while I use the outer planets, I don't really use them as ruling any of the signs. Somehow, I consider Uranus, Neptune and Pluto as powers challenging the system, challenging the personality in a way so that we can never say "I am this and this" or "I know myself completely". I imagine that giving them rulership would integrate them into the society of planets, or into the psyche, and (where I am right now) I don't think they can be. I don't think we can totally grasp what exactly they represent, we can only have approximates...

Also, I like planets ruling two signs. This way, they have a manifestation that is unhindered, clear or obvious, and one that is dark, obstructed in some way and/or occult.

Saturn rules Aquarius during the day, and in that sign, the distinctions (between the individual and society, for example, or the new and the old, etc) are quite clear. But Saturn has night rulership over Capricorn, where contrasts are blurred and not very obvious, and the individual has to find out for themselves what is what and who they are through what they are not, etc, on a journey through the night...

Mars has day rulership over Aries, "I do what I want, therefore I am". But in Scorpio, we are in the dark, what can you do in the dark? Not much. All this drive to experience ourselves through action is thwarted. The playground is closed. Nowhere to go but within, and we discover that nothing is as it seems, ourselves included. we cannot escape questioning the very "I": who am I, do I have the right to be alive, am I worthy of love, what is the meaning of life, and so on. Who am I when I am paralyzed, when I am invisible to others or rejected by them, when I have no means to arrive to any certainty about anything through the usual channels? and so on.

I am just musing here, curious what you think.

I have five planets in Scorpio, and Pluto in Libra is at the midpoint of my chart (I have a bundle, held together by Jupiter trine Neptune), max 10 degrees from my IC.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by horarymaster

StillOne:

Thanks for this survey. Will it be useful ? Time will tell !

My vote went for a combined Pluto/Mars rulership with Scorpio.

That's an impossible vote on this particular poll
The poll asks whether

EITHER

Mars rules Scorpio

OR

pluto

NOT BOTH

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

That's an impossible vote on this particular poll
The poll asks whether

EITHER

Mars rules Scorpio

OR

pluto

NOT BOTH

The poll has been modified as to not exclude Mars.

[melleoscorp]

my Pluto cadent and Mars debilitated, yet I can personally relate to some of the posts above albeit internally. so my vote goes to Pluto co-rule Scorpio.

[astralrabbit]

Bunraku had suggested delineating a chart. The character that comes to mind pertaining to this subject is; Dr. Jack Kevorkian. I can not seem to find a chart with a correct birth-time however. Has any members on here tried to do a chart rectification for his chart. If not, then let's try to accomplish this so that we may debate how significant Pluto is in his chart. Game?

[diamondbaby]

In my opinion is ruled by only.

[Arena]

Pluto has been assigned to Aries as well.

Mars is assigned to Aries and Scorpio, but Pluto is about power and Aries people are leaders and are often seen in power positions.

[Claire19]

Mars may co rule but really I dont believe in dual rulers.