Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

waybread

Well-known member
Let's do a fact-check. Please refer back to my previous posts. I don't think you actually read my links, although I live in hope.

The entire argument over this thread can be reduced to something very simple:

- A large portion of the people who participated in the demostrations, where violent rioters.

Wrong. Most participants were peaceful.

- Not all of the people who took part in the protests were violent though.

Correct. In fact most of them were peaceful.

- BLM is a marxists movement. They say so in their website. They don't try to hide it.

- Their leaders promote marxists views, and openly admit the movement is marxists.

Three Pinocchios.
This is the "what we believe" section from the "official" Black Lives Matter website. https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ There is nothing about Marxism in it or elsewhere on their website.

Individual leaders apparently expressed Marxist beliefs in 2015. The platforms of individual chapters may vary.

I think it is fair to call the parent organization's platform radical-- but then radical compared to what?

The First Amendment guarantees Americans' freedom of expression, even when you dislike that expression. Frankly a lot of American university professors in the social sciences and history professed Marxism in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow the nation survived them. And where are they today?

I hope you will read up on McCarthyism in the USA. The country sort of lost its taste for political witch hunts at that point.

Moreover, as you well know, Dirius, the Black Lives Matter movement is far bigger than the trade-marked organization. Regardless of the central organization's claims, they don't control the far larger movement. Many Americans support the principle of Justice For All without agreeing with the need to overthrow capitalism or some such.

- BLM leadership justify violence to promote the movement. They openly admit this.

False. I also couldn't find this statement on the "official" website. But of course, there is also an argument to be made against the systemic violence that many African Americans have experienced.

Most people would argue that a police officer handcuffing a man and then kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he died is a form of violence. Are you familiar with the concept of "structural violence"? What about the shooting of Breonna Taylor by police as she lay in bed-- when they got the wrong house?

- Their objective, is to change the political landscape, not only of the U.S. but also of other countries (even Japan has a BLM chapter).

Correct. Maybe today's "political landscape" is unjust for minorities and deserves to be fixed.

These are facts. Denying this is pure nonesense.

Umm, no. You have more false statements than correct ones.

Maybe you deserve a prize for your use of Straw Man debate fallacies, though.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius,a good poll is on top of this. They find ways to deal with demographic differences. The problem in the past was that most polls were conducted through land-line telephones. There was a Big Oops there a couple of elections ago when it turned out that most young people did not have land lines, but cell phones. The pollsters have since adjusted their data collection methods.

You can read here about the Pew Research Center's methodology: https://www.pewresearch.org/methods/u-s-survey-research/our-survey-methodology-in-detail/ It is actually a sophisticated process that gets a tune-up periodically.

Here is a site for a professional society of polling professionals: https://www.aapor.org/Education-Res...s/Sampling-Methods-for-Political-Polling.aspx

A lot of statistics are involved in crunching the numbers, which is why published polls usually give you a plus or minus margin of error.

Then a big issue is how the questions are worded and how the results are aggregated. Suppose I say, based upon recent polls, "50% of Americans think Donald Trump is doing a terrific job." But suppose the question was worded, "Do you agree with the statement that 'Trump is doing a terrific job'"? And the options for response in a questionnaire are "strongly agree," "agree," "slightly agree," and "disagree." Maybe 50% of respondents disagree with that statement, and 30% respond with "slightly agree." Only 20% respond "agree" or "strongly agree." If I aggregate the three "agree" responses for a 50% approval rating, I have overlooked the 80% who are either not Trump supporters or who are very lukewarm about him.

So this is why I would inquire into sources for poll results if something were riding on it.

Waybread if you want to believe that 2000 interviews leads to 25 million participants, because CNN told you so, that is your prerrogative. I have no real way of changing your mind there, and I'm not gonna be able to discredit the polling system to you.

Bare in mind though the number is not definite. The number is a "may" - it may also have been 25 thousand people.

So your number is hypothethical to begin with. It is not a certain a number. And with any hypothethis, unless you prove it, it isn't certainty.

However peaceful protests don't end up with 9300 arrests, which are a certifiable number of what happened. These are actual registered arrests.

Dirius, you seem to have missed my point entirely. Please go back and re-read my analysis so I don't have to repeat myself. You seem to think that CV-19 deaths and cases are static at a given point in time. This is not very useful as we are still in the midst of a pandemic that is now spiking again in many areas, notably in CA, TX, FL, and AZ. At some point we can look back, when (hopefully) the pandemic is over, and see how different states fared.

This is a map of new cases during the past week: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html so look at the trajectories. The "hot spots" have shifted south and, to some extent West.

Covid19 deaths are relative to how the cases progress in a particular area, how measures are taken, and the response given.

Sure each state will peak at different times, however delaying the peak time will lead towards more stability for the health-care facilities.

New york and NJ did a poor job.

I've produced multiple arguments that you either do not understand or dislike to the point that you don't address them.

Big LOL from me, Dirius.

Waybread you can't change actual numbers.

Waybread you have this tendency to engage in off-topic personal details which have nothing to do with the conversation. This type of comments on your part is what lead to the thread getting out of hand and requiring moderation.

There is a reason why your posts got edited out by moderators didn't they? they were breaking the rules.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Wrong. Most participants were peaceful.

Correct. In fact most of them were peaceful.

9300 arrests. Billions of dollars in damage.

Not peaceful protesters waybread - and you have no way of knowing the actual number.


Three Pinocchios.
This is the "what we believe" section from the "official" Black Lives Matter website. https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ There is nothing about Marxism in it or elsewhere on their website.

Individual leaders apparently expressed Marxist beliefs in 2015. The platforms of individual chapters may vary.

I think it is fair to call the parent organization's platform radical-- but then radical compared to what?

False. I also couldn't find this statement on the "official" website. But of course, there is also an argument to be made against the systemic violence that many African Americans have experienced.

The First Amendment guarantees Americans' freedom of expression, even when you dislike that expression. Frankly a lot of American university professors in the social sciences and history professed Marxism in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow the nation survived them. And where are they today?

I hope you will read up on McCarthyism in the USA. The country sort of lost its taste for political witch hunts at that point.

Moreover, as you well know, Dirius, the Black Lives Matter movement is far bigger than the trade-marked organization. Regardless of the central organization's claims, they don't control the far larger movement. Many Americans support the principle of Justice For All without agreeing with the need to overthrow capitalism or some such.

These have nothing to do with police Brutality against black people. These are just cultural marxism political talking points:

- We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

- We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

- We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.
Most people would argue that a police officer handcuffing a man and then kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he died is a form of violence. Are you familiar with the concept of "structural violence"? What about the shooting of Breonna Taylor by police as she lay in bed-- when they got the wrong house?

Everyone agrees George Floyd's death was murder. Not everyone agrees you need to destroy a city because of it.

Correct. Maybe today's "political landscape" is unjust for minorities and deserves to be fixed.

Umm, no. You have more false statements than correct ones.

Maybe you deserve a prize for your use of Straw Man debate fallacies, though.

No waybread. BLM doesn't have a logo saying "we are marxists". They don't sell t-shirts with communist logos either.

However anyone who understands what marxism is will clearly see through it. You can keep denying it all you want, and feel good about it, but its obvious not many people are buying the argument that BLM isn't marxists.

Furthermore there are statements, speeches an articles proving the point.
 
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blackbery

Well-known member
There have been around 14,000 arrests but no convictions for the killings, lootiings, burning of buildings and other property damage and assaults, on police officers and innocent civilians. To ask me if I'm opposed to police brutality is yet another way for you and Way Bread to ignore the real threat to black people. That's other black people. No-one is above the law and I welcome charges against racist cops. I was very pleased to see Chauvin charged and charged so quickly.
Law and order must prevail, both within the police force and the larger community at large.

I also welcome charges against the criminals who attacked people and police with rocks, bottles, lasers, pipes, bats. Nobody is being held accountable. It's like the Wild Wild West. They are being released immediately or being bailed out by woke, white Liberals. Who might not be so forgiving if it was their neighbourhoods that had been destroyed or their son who had been shot by the 'peaceful protesters'.

There is a BIG BACKLASH against BLM rising throughout the country. Their LIE that they care about black people is exposed. More & more black people are fighting back, painting over the BLM murals, signing petitions to re-call inept Democrat politicians who allow the carnage to continue and leaving the Democrat Party which receives a percentage of donations. The protesters are majority young, white males with goatees who studied Marxism in Uni and think they are Che.:whistling:
The Christian black population do not support BLM which is against all forms of religion and opposed to the nuclear family. Black Conservatives are trying to bring back the nuclear family, not destroy it.

The white, woke Liberals are mainly being bailed out by Wealthy Liberals like George Soros and Oprah or Jay-Z. They may be duped into believing they are fighting for black lives or maybe they too support the over-throw of American democracy. If the BLM tore down the metal gate to one of their luxury properties, they have their own personal security to deal with it. Black people living in the inner-cities don't have that luxury. They want the police there.
The vast majority have a very good relationship with the police but it's the gang-bangers and the criminals who want them gone.

By the time BLM are delcared a terrorist organization, the movement will be entirely composed of white marxist activists. Black people are feeling the movement as much as the wealthy in Chicago and NY are fleeing their cities because of the violence.

‘I think the majority of the US have now had enough of that organisation’, he tweeted. ‘Black people’s lives matter! The divisive #BlackLivesMatter organisation, however, DOES NOT.

Over 70% think BLM have NOT improved racial tensions and now up to 45% believe it's increased the conflict. That # is rising each week.



Black Lives Matter mural outside Trump Tower vandalized for third time

Black Lives Matter mural in front of Cincinnati City Hall vandalized

BLM Mural In Front Of Vermont Statehouse Vandalized


More 'peaceful protests' when they attacked CNN building itself. But it was all peaceful, nothing to see her as the broadcaster fled in terror..:biggrin:


https://youtu.be/Yve9DhT8Nt4





Arrests are being made whenever possible. No one here is justifying assaults on the authorities, or the killings.

Just for the record, are you, yourself, opposed to police brutality?
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I'm not surprised that chaos has erupted during this Trump Presidency. He's a nihilistic troll who delights in chaos. He can also use it to his advantage.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Waybread if you want to believe that 2000 interviews leads to 25 million participants, because CNN told you so, that is your prerrogative. I have no real way of changing your mind there, and I'm not gonna be able to discredit the polling system to you.

Bare in mind though the number is not definite. The number is a "may" - it may also have been 25 thousand people.

So your number is hypothethical to begin with. It is not a certain a number. And with any hypothethis, unless you prove it, it isn't certainty.

However peaceful protests don't end up with 9300 arrests, which are a certifiable number of what happened. These are actual registered arrests.

Dirius, you truly do not understand how polls are conducted. You don't seem to understand modeling, statistical sampling, or the large number of respected organizations that conduct public opinion polls. You can't just bluff your way through stuff you haven't bothered to study, especially when I've given you several links to follow.

Or maybe by now you're just trying to pull my leg.

Some news organizations conduct polls. Fox news does this, it's not just the more liberal media. University research centers conduct polls. There are independent polling organizations like the Gallup poll, which has been around for 85 years. These pollsters wouldn't survive if their analyses were normally wildly mistaken.

There's another bit of research that goes into estimating crowd size. Sometimes people can literally be counted through aerial photographs. Google it, and you'll come up with methods.

But the obvious point, staring you in the face, is that the number of peaceful Black Lives Matter demonstrators all around the country were significantly more than your 9500.

I'm getting a little tired of doing your homework for you. I suggest you do some.



Covid19 deaths are relative to how the cases progress in a particular area, how measures are taken, and the response given.

Sure each state will peak at different times, however delaying the peak time will lead towards more stability for the health-care facilities.

New york and NJ did a poor job.

Oh, really. At some point, people tested positive for the virus to be counted as a case. In a few instances, where the symptoms were obvious and hospitals didn't have enough tests, medical staff probably made some assumptions.

An official death certificate is required for a recently dead person. They don't just make up these things.

NY and NJ were on the front lines of CV-19. Thankfully, doctors are now more experienced in treating CV-19 patients then they were last spring.

Incidentally, medical doctors used to be predominantly Republican. That has been changing in recent years. https://www.wsj.com/articles/doctors-once-gop-stalwarts-now-more-likely-to-be-democrats-11570383523



Waybread you have this tendency to engage in off-topic personal details which have nothing to do with the conversation. This type of comments on your part is what lead to the thread getting out of hand and requiring moderation.

There is a reason why your posts got edited out by moderators didn't they? they were breaking the rules.

Oh, c'mon, Dirius. I share few personal details. But now who's getting personal? I haven't noticed too many of my posts getting deleted.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Re: Aunt on Facebook

MOB violence, killing, assaulting police officers, rioting, looting, burning down of buildings is not freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. They are ILLEGAL acts which are NOT permitted under the Constitution. UNLAWFUL ACTS are not constitutionally permitted. Please read all about it to understand about the LAWFUL Freedom of Assembly

MLK used the Constitution in the way it was intended and he received the support of the entire world because he believed in non-violence.

Blackbery, we agree.

My argument is based on proportionality. The data overwhelmingly indicate that the majority of demonstrators were peaceful.
 

waybread

Well-known member
You have outlined EXACTLY what BLM is all about. Destroying democracy, creating hatred and violence. The destruction of the family and faith. Totalitarian goals to control the people through their Marxist agenda. Some people can keep claiming that they are a 'peaceful' group but they are wrong.

John Lewis, the brave civil rights leader who marched with MLK to bring about change in the country when racism against black people was a systematic way of life. He HATED violence, as did MLK. He HATED Marxists. They would both hate BLM and the violence and the ideology which wants to destroy American democracy. They want to destroy the churches. Both MLK and Lewis were men of FAITH and HOPE and NON-VIOLENT protest. BLM Marxist violent mobs and killing is the total opposite of what they stood for, he said the following:


"The civil rights movement was based on faith. Many of us who were participants in this movement saw our involvement as an extension of our faith. We saw ourselves doing the work of the Almighty. Segregation and racial discrimination were not in keeping with our faith, so we had to do something."


"We are one people with one family. We all live in the same house... and through books, through information, we must find a way to say to people that we must lay down the burden of hate. For hate is too heavy a burden to bear.

Blackbery, I think you credit the relatively small proportion of Black Lives Matter supporters who were law-breakers far more power than they actually possess.

If you have a religious faith and it is strong, they cannot destroy it.

I think John Lewis understood that it is love that conquers hatred, not hatred of violence, Black Lives Matter, or Marxists.

Rather, I think you are the one who hates them.

Blackbery, if there is to be no freedom of speech for people whose beliefs you wish to censor, then your own freedom of speech is in jeopardy.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Blackbery, must I point out that an arrest is not a conviction? People can be arrested on suspicion and then released, with no charges filed.

Further, I just checked. Shortly before his death, John Lewis visited Black Lives Matter Plaza.

You seem to be so angry and afraid. I don't think it's warranted. We agree that violence shouldn't happen. I think you credit the law-breakers with far more power to overthrow American society than they actually have.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
Is this another 'peaceful protest'? The useless Democratic Mayor of Portland refuses help from the president even though the city is in complete chaos.

CNN reporting it as 'nothing to see here, just peaceful protesters' asserting their rights. They refuse to criticize the violent mob, no matter what they do.
The mob can kill, loot, burn, riot with full immunity from the Liberals.:crying:
There were many arrests but they will be bailed out by the woke, liberals who no longer believe in democracy, civil discourse or the law. It's complete madness that people can break the law and the leaders encourage even more violations.

The violent mob have taken over the Democratic cities.:sick:

About 15 hours after rioters broke into the building that houses the Portland Police Association offices and set a fire, a passel of community leaders and activists begged for an end to the violence that has gripped the city for nearly 2 months.

Pastor Matt Hennessee of the Vancouver Avenue First Baptist Church began by “begging you to put down your need for violence and meet us so we can move forward.”




Portland Police say a group of demonstrators marched to the Portland Police Association building Saturday night, broke in the front doors and started a fire inside.

At about 8:35 p.m., police say hundreds gathered on the south side of the precinct in a parking lot. Some tampered with gates, broke patrol vehicle windows, and vandalized patrol vehicles, according to police. Police say members of the crowd taunted officers as they were arriving to work.

At about 10:45 p.m., police say people broke into the PPA offices and within moments lit a fire inside.

As officers arrived, many began to flee to the east. Police say they declared a riot “due to the violent conduct of the large group creating a grave risk of public alarm.”





Speaking on CNN’s ‘State of the Union,’ Portland's Democratic Mayor said federal officers “are not wanted here."



7 charged with federal crimes after Portland riots
Only 4 of the 7 are from the Portland metro area

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news...e-federal-agents-used-gas-against-protesters/






Blackbery, must I point out that an arrest is not a conviction? People can be arrested on suspicion and then released, with no charges filed.

Further, I just checked. Shortly before his death, John Lewis visited Black Lives Matter Plaza.

You seem to be so angry and afraid. I don't think it's warranted. We agree that violence shouldn't happen. I think you credit the law-breakers with far more power to overthrow American society than they actually have.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Sooo..you're OK with an armed force of secret police in America? These federal agents in Portland wore camouflage with no badge or identifiers, and hauled off peaceful demonstrators into unmarked cars. There were violent protesters who deserved to be arrested. But the federal agents did not discriminate.
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/19/8928...als-blast-trump-response-to-portland-protests

Did you note the "Wall of Moms" who organized to protect peaceful protesters?
https://www.msnbc.com/andrea-mitche...s-from-federal-agents-in-portland-88006213692
 

david starling

Well-known member
Sooo..you're OK with an armed force of secret police in America? These federal agents in Portland wore camouflage with no badge or identifiers, and hauled off peaceful demonstrators into unmarked cars. There were violent protesters who deserved to be arrested. But the federal agents did not discriminate.
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/19/8928...als-blast-trump-response-to-portland-protests

Did you note the "Wall of Moms" who organized to protect peaceful protesters?
https://www.msnbc.com/andrea-mitche...s-from-federal-agents-in-portland-88006213692

Now THIS is OMINOUS. Trump had no legal authority to send them in without express permission from the mayor of the city or the Governor of the State, and THAT is expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Shades of the Soviet Union!!!

Looks like Trump's organizing a KGB of his own!. :devil:

https://genius.com/Phil-ochs-knock-on-the-door-lyrics
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Now THIS is OMINOUS. Trump had no legal authority to send them in without express permission from the mayor of the city or the Governor of the State, and THAT is expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Shades of the Soviet Union!!!

Looks like Trump's organizing a KGB of his own!. :devil:

https://genius.com/Phil-ochs-knock-on-the-door-lyrics

Pelosi made the mistake of calling these Federal Agents, not civilian police, "storm troopers", instead of sticking to the blatant illegality of their deployment.

Even so, the reaction by many Trump supporters on the internet was one of full approval for an illegal, dictatorial act by a President who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution.

Any Trump supporters who approve of this action, especially elected or appointed officials, who should know about the law and the Separation of Powers, are forfeiting all claim to be in favor of State's Rights, and are instead, opting for a Federal dictatorship.

If it weren't so close to the Election, this would call for a second Impeachment in the House. And any Senators who refused to convict would be guilty of treason against the Constitution of the United States of America.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Black Lives Matter HAS to take a stronger stand against the violent, anarchistic acts by those making a mockery of its claim to be a non-violent movement. As it is now, BLM has become Trump's best friend in his bid to overthrow our Constitutional form of Government.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Good posts, David.

When I saw those unmarked camouflage uniforms, it reminded me of the plain uniforms worn by the Russian troops during their 2014 invasion of eastern Ukraine. The Russians claimed this was an internal Ukrainian matter, but of course, it is not.

Looks like The Donald is taking a page from his friend Vladimir Putin's playbook.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Good posts, David.

When I saw those unmarked camouflage uniforms, it reminded me of the plain uniforms worn by the Russian troops during their 2014 invasion of eastern Ukraine. The Russians claimed this was an internal Ukrainian matter, but of course, it is not.

Looks like The Donald is taking a page from his friend Vladimir Putin's playbook.

As I'm sure you know, Putin actually was a KGB agent assigned to East Germany.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Re: Aunt on Facebook

Came across this article and thought it seemed made for this thread:

"If Black lives matter to you and you want to be an ally, you have to take a stand against white solidarity, even when it means calling out racially insensitive posts your friends or family share on Facebook."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/speak-out-family-racist-posts_l_5f0f3ee4c5b65426947a26e6

Yet another example of the marxsist attempt to destroy the nuclear family.

"Get your friends and family canceled in the name of the BLM movement".

Sell your brothers and sisters, your parents and grandparents, your chilren and grandchildren to the mob so their lives can get ruined.

[Moved post from another thread because it's on topic for this one. - Moderator]
 
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Osamenor

Staff member
Re: Aunt on Facebook

Yet another example of the marxsist attempt to destroy the nuclear family.

"Get your friends and family canceled in the name of the BLM movement".

Sell your brothers and sisters, your parents and grandparents, your chilren and grandchildren to the mob so their lives can get ruined.

Since you're calling BLM Marxist, your post is much more suitable for this thread than where you originally put it. I moved it here for that reason. Haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but when I do, I may have a response of my own. I expect there's more than one tangent to go on from it.
 
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