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Unread 03-29-2016, 11:20 PM
rahu rahu is offline
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Yahweh and Asherah

Excavations in 1976 found pottery shard at Kuntillet `Ajrud with allusions to Yahweh and asherah.
http://wbs.edu/2016/09/pondering-spa...-ajrud-pithoi/
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...ptian-god-bes/
http://www.lebtahor.com/Archaeology/...scriptions.htm
Asherah is a name for the mother goddess and it is the name for the enclosure that held the sacred serpent. The sacred serpent had always been a feminine symbol until the Yahwistic editors of the torah turned the serpent into a masculine symbol . Asherah is also associated with sacred trees and groves.
How could Yahweh be a creator god when he was a consort to asherah, a mother goddess symbol.

my point is that the discovery of Yahweh and asherah was not made public for nearly 40 years. I think that fact this discovery was not made public for so long bears scrutiny.

(as this thread has been overwhelmed by off topic prejudice, I have added below all my post that are germane to the initial topic)

you googled a nice list of references but none of these deal with the fact that Yahweh could not be the creator god if Yahweh was a consort of asherah in the 11th century b.c. Yahweh could not have spoken to moses on mt Sinai as the war with the kings of Israel and sumeria occurred around 1000bc. Yahweh was a cult god at that time as shown by his association with asherah.

in fact the people of Israel and sumeria and were followers of the goddess religions as late as king Hezekiah.
the yahwist war with the goddess religion resulted in a weakening of Israel to the degree that the Assyrians easily conquered and led the part of jewish people into the Babylonian exile.



if you read merlin stones book , you might have known that asherah was also term for a "temple' that housed the sacred serpent, in addition to the goddess's name and the sacred tree and pillars associated with the goddess religion .the yahwist editors of the torah made the serpent a male so as to continue their degradation of the Hebrew goddess worship for purely political reasons and economic reasons

in addition merlin stone was of the opinion that the levites were indo European people that migrated into the levant. the levites were not an original tribe of the hebrews. there religious statue of the levites only began under king david when he gave made them bears of the sacred trumpets in the temple. to say moses and aaron were levites is a yahwist attempt to back date the history of the levites. if moses had been a levite, he would have never given the temple cultus into the hands of the house of zadok.
throughout the book of Samuel 2 it is stated that david made zadok the high priest and the levite priesthood followed.but again this is Yahwist propaganda as it was the house of zadok that ruled the temple cultus ,not an individual named zadok per se.

for that matter the levites never consolidated their religious power until the after Maccabean revolution circsa 150 b.c.

and of course I am sure you know the torah was not written down until late exile time or when the return of from the Babylonian exile occurred.
so the written word recorded a history that was up 500 years in the past.
as such the real history was lost to yahwist censors.

no one even knows the real name of king Solomon, as this epithet meaning wise was given to him in post exilic times .

you are very good at criticizing with generalities even when you don't have a grasp of the subject itself. or shall we say, when you have a prejudicial view.

I know about asherah mentioned in the bible. the philistines put king sauls head in their asherah and I believe saul had a asherah.
but the archeological remains indicating Yahweh was associated with asherah was not made know when the pottery was found.

but there have been other important archeological disinformation in Israel .
the one that comes to mind is the renown yigael yadins assertion that he had found the pottery shards lots which the defenders of masada had used to determine the order in which the defenders would kill each others so as to not ne captured by the romans. I read about thisdecades ago, but after yigeal's death, it turned out to be false. the afore mentioned shard were never excavated.

you still to not address the problem of how a cult god (Yahweh)could have been the omnipotent god of the Hebrews. how could the One god be associated with a goddess ?

I don't expect an answer as the facts throw doubt on the true nature of Yahweh.

as I expected no one will explain how Yahweh can be a creator god at the time of moses yet be the consort of asherah in the10th century bc.
Yahweh is a fiction of levitite/yahwist propaganda.

this is made obvious by part of the books of Samuel ,kings and chronicles

during the time of Elisha, there was a revolt by the king of moab named mesha .
The record in the book of kings has a few conflicting verses about this era, which would be in the reign of ahab ,king of Israel ,in samaria and the reign of Jehoshaphat ,king of Judah, in Jerusalem.
King ahab persecuted the cult of yahwe, the yahwists, and the yahwists continually tried to forment revolution against him.
As a consequence ahab killed all the members of the opposing yahwist ” 1 kings 18:3

Jehoshaphat on the other hand sent the levites to all city princes to give them the book of law of yahwe, and guide/rule them. 11chronicles 17:9
1kings 21:25 says that ahab “whom jezebel his wife stirred up”.

Jezebel brought the religion of the mother goddess. In the scripture called baal, the original form of this god was belial, a feminine god which was masculinized in the scriptures ,again to hide the goddess’s preeminence.

This time period is the beginning of the levite belief in one god. Still at this time all the ancient world was polytheistic . Yahweh had a consort, asherah in early centuries and throughout the early history the tribes of israel worshiped the indigenous mother goddess.

The levite rewriting of history of Judaism starts with he suppression of the mother goddess.

This censorship is very obvious in kings account of ahabs life.
1kings 22 ahab is wounded I battle and leaves the field of combat. He recovers and goes on to live for 3 years after jehosaphat dies. But the next line tells of ahab staying in the field of combat and dying.
The second version has ahab’s son ahaziah reigning next for 2 years and then his son jehoram reigning for 12 years and then jehu,a sonof jehosaphat, reigned.

But the first version has ahab living until after jehosaphat’s death.
Another problem is that jehoram was jehoshaphat’s son not ahabs son as written in 11chronicles 21:6.
So why is jehoram called ahab’s son. Commentators have also wondered why ahab who was against the yahwist would name a son jehoram(jahwe is exalted).

The second (accepted story of ahab) dying in battle fulfils a prophecy by Elisha that “.. dogs shall lick thy blood….dogs shall eat jezebel by the walls of jezreel.”

The second version is a obvious attempt to rewrite history and show elisha’s prophecy to be true and to erase the influence of the mother goddess under jezebel.

That the second version is a fraud is made clear by other sources from this time period.

The second version says that the king of moab, mesha, rebelled against Israel after ahabs death on the field of battle.
But a stella was found , written by mesha,king of moab. The revolt was initially successful and the stella was a written record of this rebellion and the reasons for.
Omri,ahabs father had oppressed the Moabites and moab was a vassal state to the king of smaria,omri.
Mesha writes that he rebelled when ahab had reigned half of his years.
So clearly the second version is a fraud as it says the revolt of mesha happen at the time of ahabs death.

A second source that shows the second version is incorrect is a from black obelisk of shalmanester 3,king of Assyria and Babylon .a inscription reads that in his the 6th year,he battled a coalition of Syrian and Palestinian princes at karkar. Ahab is mentioned as providing an army of 10,000 soldiers and 2,ooo chariots to the allied host against shalmanser.
In his 18th year shalmanser received “ a tribute from the men of tyre,sidon, and of jehu , of the house of omri. Omri was ahabs father. The 12years between these inscription does not leave room for jehoram to have reigned. Jehu was a son of Jehoshaphat who exterminate the line of ahab and ruled samaria(house of omri)

The second version in kings 22 says ahab son ahaziah ruled for 2 years, and then jehoram ruled for12 years and jehu ruled for a unspecified time.
But this adds up to more that the 12 years between ahab and jehu as noted in the annuals of shalmanser2. Some commentators have question whether jehoram ruled at all in samaria.

From ancient records of the same time, it is clear that the story of ahab has been censored by the yahwists/levites.

for that matter the levites never consolidated their religious power until the after Maccabean revolution circsa 150 b.c. when the last high priest of the house of zadok, left Israel and established a temple in Alexandria
because the high priesthood in Jerusalem had become a position that was bought and sold under herod antipas.


Excavations in 1976 found pottery shard at Kuntillet `Ajrud with allusions to Yahweh and asherah. Asherah is a name for the mother goddess

the evidence of yawheh and his consort asherah were found a bit after the 1960's in 1976(and notpublishedtil2006)and I am quite sure your rabbi did not assert yahweh had a consort at all.

I think you're also asking for trouble if you expect all the stories from a religion to be literally true

well I suggest you tell this to the likud party of netayahu as they belief so fervently in the literalness of the bible that the likud party shut down the Israeli government for several months in 1994 because simon peres said he did not like things that king david had done.
the NY Times article on december26, 1994 page 6 column relates that a no confidence vote was taken after foreign minister shimon peres, during parliamentary debate said he disapproved of some of the things King David had done, such as the conquest and occupation of neighboring lands and
“his selection of a married woman whose husband he sent to his death”. this refers to david sending bathsheba’s husband,uriah the Hittite to the front lines of battle where he was likely to be killed so david could marry Bathsheba.

The likud look for answers from kings dead 3000 years ago, to decide how to interact with modern reality.
King david was such a tyrant, god did not allow david to rebuild the temple

But in their world david is the model politically, for Israel in the 21 century.

And now netayahu intends to conquer the middle east under the likud kabbalic agencies.

He is the one most responsible for the rhetoric that lead to rabin’s assassination

the point being clear that ancient"myths " are driving contemporary political action in 2016

so you are factually incorrect to say the stories of the bible can't be taken literally. or you have some special faculty to pick and choose which stories are true and which are false.
I tend to reject the stories that Yahweh is a creator god, based on the archeological evidence uncovered in1976

I also think the late archeologist yageal yadin would have argued with you on your "assertion" that the bible can not be looked at literally.

What is the basis of your hatred here, Rahu? I'm curious

once again as you have for 10 years, you show you use of passivce aggressive techniques. now I am racsits
and as you are enoted for your new world Oder apologist stance, you dismiss anything that may prove you biased. as for netayahu.
he was the driving force behind the assasinarion of yitzak rabin because rabin had signed a peace accord..this is not my racism ,this is published opinions by jewish authors.
netayahu is a unrepentant liar. the latest example is his statement a few months back that a Palestinian leader gave hilter the idea to commit genocide on the jews, this was covered in the world press so don't kill the messanger(your words).netayahu later had to retract this racists comment.
a year ago Netanyahu published a map of his vision of the middle east in the world press. there was no Palestinian state at all.for nearly 100 years all debate about a jewish state included the presence of a Palestinian state, but Netanyahu threw years of negotiations out the window on his personal whim.
the there was the blanket destruction of parts of gaza 2 years ago that amounted to genocide, especially as an Israeli sniper boasted on this facebook page that he had targeted Palestinian children.(quickly removed )

I could go on and on but I am not going to was time time on you as you are not interested in facts that show you prejudices attitude.

what is your hatred of the Palestinians based on, i'd like to know

But if your primary motive in starting this thread was to promote anti-Zionism or anti- Israel sentiment, why were you not more direct about it

you cleverly try to represent Zionism as monolithic belief system whenin the fact is there are many different camps of Zionism. socialist, messianic, democractic, religious ,economist, yet you once again try to paint me as a racist when I am only aware of the historical make up of Zionism.

I reject the Yahwistic aggressive rascist zionism of netayahu and the likudnics .my preferences is for the scientific and democratic Zionism such as Immanuel velikovsky and other embraced.

My point (and I think Oddity's) is that there are other more metaphorical or political interpretations that make a lot more sense, at least for people without a personal stake in a highly politicized biblical archaeology.

if heinrich schliemann had this attitude, we would still not know that troy and the Iliad were historical places and events.

Even were Netanyahu a complete mad man, the Arab nations and UN would never stand for it.The notion that Benjamin Netanyahu is out to conquer the Near East is flabbergastingly untenable

get real waybread, Saudi Arabia is now fighting a proxy war for Israel, , correction Israel has put 40,000 troops in the syrian conflict to go along with the Saudis air and ground forces.

But if your primary motive in starting this thread was to promote anti-Zionism or anti- Israel sentiment, why were you not more direct about it?

again you are being disingenuous at best. it is just a coincidence that your first love the establishment media does not cover the dissension in Israel about Netanyahu's racists stand.

you have used these half truth discussion techniques for 10 years and still try to use them.
iam not against Zionism but I am against fascism like netrayahu's.

of course you haven't noted that netayahu passed a law that all jews have to believe as he believes, such as circumcision. now you must be circumcised in israel or be fined several 1000 dollars and also face imprisonment. what other country has passed genital mutilations laws and got away with it"?

talking to you is like taking to chameleon, you never acknowledge your faulty thinking but simply cover it up with more intellectual half truths.
and if you are painted into a corner ,you start hurtling personal insults such as "Rahu do you still have your pyramid hat on"

you are a waste of time, but weak minded individuals find you so articulate...
yes you and oddity and katydid are cut from the same cloth.

you can keep trolling me but don't expect any more responses. I don't have time for your Jupiter Neptune square.

The finds from Kuntillet ‘Ajrud were fantastic. The zingers were two large pithoi, or storage jars, that weighed about 30 pounds each. The now-reconstructed pithoi are painted with deities, humans, animals and symbols, and feature a number of inscriptions, including three that refer to Yahweh and his asherah or Asherah, depending on your interpretation. Asherah is a pagan goddess. Was she God’s wife?

Why has it taken nearly four decades to publish this final report? One reason is that everything about Kuntillet ‘Ajrud and its finds is so darn difficult to interpret—or even to see. The recently published report is a superb volume, and the discussion and interpretation will surely continue far beyond its pages"

So if Yahweh had a consort, asherah, and asherah is a word associated with the mother goddess cult, then how could Yahweh be the sole creator god that spoke to moses????
The yahwist occultist have been writing to glorify the selves .the archeological facts again show the yahwist to be fabricators of history, here they try to put the words of an 8th century bc cult god,yahweh, into the creator god.
The religious fiction is so boldly recorded that the obvious flaws shown by the archeological record can be missed.
In the desert moses picked up the brazen serpent and it was part of the temple cultus for 700 years. Moses got the serpent in the desert. There was a temple to the goddess and her serpent in the desert then. The serpent is associated with the goddess, so this implies the acceptance of a female divinity.
But when moses came down the mountain, the tribes had revered to te worship of baal the yahwist wil write. But ball is the male designated name of belial and other goddess names. The tribes didn’t suddenly change to the goddess, they were all along.
And then there is the question of mt Sinai. Why did god deal with moses from a mountsain sacred to nannar/sin?
Why is the sinai desert named after nanar/sin???


Why not to Yahweh the supposed creator god???

Nannar/sin’s city was harran. When the babylonia exile occurred only the cream of the judean crop when to Babylon , the rest of the dregs of Jerusalem were sent to harran, the tradition homerof Abraham and the jews.
Why did nannar/sin rule over harran? Where was Yahweh?
Harran is an interesting city.
One is that abram had an elder brother named harran ,deceased. But also because harran was an exact miniature of the city of UR in Sumerian. Harran even had a canal from the river pass through harran just as at Ur, with the city divided in exactly the same jurisdictions .
Sarai means princess in sumerian. Abram and sarai were of royal lineage from sumeria.
But where is yahweh?

during the time of Elisha, there was a revolt by the king of moab named mesha .
both the Egyptian and biblical accounts show a “great woman” in Palestine during the revolt of a “mesha.”
The record in the book of kings has a few conflicting verses about this era, which would be the reign of ahab ,king of Israel ,in samaria and the reign of Jehoshaphat ,king of Judah, in Jerusalem.
King ahab persecuted the cult of yahwe, the yahwists, and the yahwists continually tried to forment revolution against him.
As a consequence ahab killed all the members of the opposing yahwist ” 1 kings 18:3
Jehoshaphat on the other hand sent the levites to all city princes to give them the book of law of yahwe, and guide/rule them. 11chronicles 17:9
1kings 21:25 says that ahab “whom jezebel his wife stirred up”.
Jezebel brought the religion of the mother goddess. In the scripture called baal, the original form of this god was belial, a feminine god which was masculinized in the scriptures ,again to hide the goddess’s preeminence.
This time period is the beginning of the levite belief in one god. Still at this time all the ancient world was polytheistic . Yahweh had a consort, asherah in early centuries and throughout the early history the tribes of israel worshiped the indigenous mother goddess.
The levite rewriting of history of Judaism starts with he suppression of the mother goddess.
This censorship is very obvious in kings account of ahabs life.
1kings 22 ahab is wounded I battle and leaves the field of combat. He recovers and goes on to live for 3 years after jehosaphat dies. But the next line tells of ahab staying in the field of combat and dying.
The second version has ahab’s son ahaziah reigning next for 2 years and then his son jehoram reigning for 12 years and then jehu,a sonof jehosaphat, reigned.
But the first version has ahab living until after jehosaphat’s death.
Another problem is that jehoram was jehoshaphat’s son as written in 11chronicles 21:6.
So why is jehoram called ahab’s son. Commentators have also wondered why ahab who was against the yahwist would name a son jehoram(jahwe is exalted).
The second (accepted story of ahab) dying in battle fulfils a prophecy by Elisha that “.. dogs shall lick thy blood….dogs shall eat jezebel by the walls of jezreel.”
The second version is a obvious attempt to rewrite history and show elisha’s prophecy to be true and to erase the influence of the mother goddess under jezebel.
That the second version is a fraud is made clear by other sources from this time period.
The second version says that the king of moab, mesha, rebelled against Israel after ahabs death on the field of battle.
But a stella was found , written by mesha,king of moab. The revolt was initially successful and the stella was a written record of this rebellion and the reasons for.
Omri,ahabs father had oppressed the Moabites and moab was a vassal state to the king of smaria,omri.
Mesha writes that he rebelled when ahab had reigned half of his years.
So clearly the second version is a fraud as it says the revolt of mesha happen at the time of ahabs death.
Also the armarna tablets also record the revolt of mesha ,by name,in a letter from ahab to ankhetaton the pharaoh.
A second source that shows the second version is incorrect is a from the black oblesik of shalmanester 3,king of Assyria and Babylon .a inscription reads that in his the 6th year,he battled a coalition of Syrian and Palestinian princes at karkar. Ahab is mentioned as providing an army of 10,000 soldiers and 2,ooo chariots to the allied host against shalmanser.
In his 18th year shalmanser received “ a tribute from the men of tyre,sidon, and of jehu , of the house of omri. Omri was ahabs father. The 12years between these inscription does not leave room for jehoram to have reigned. Jehu was a son of Jehoshaphat who exterminate the line of ahab and ruled samaria(house of omri)
The second version in kings 22 says ahab son ahaziah ruled for 2 years, and then jehoram ruled for12 years and jehu ruled for a unspecified time.
But this adds up to more that the 12 years between ahab and jehu as noted in the annuals of shalmanser2. Some commentators have question whether jehoram ruled at all in samaria.
From ancient records of the same time, it is clear that the story of ahab has been censored by the yahwists/levites.

elohim translates to god in the plural and means both male and female. equating this word with judges or magistrates comes much later .
as Abraham and terah his father were Sumerian, the original meaning is of female and female dieties as was the case in ancient sumeria.
the point of this thread is to emphasizes the levite /Yahwist degradation of goddess and women in general.

the most obvious yahwist propaganda concerning David was appropriating the killing of goliath to david from Elhanan. later scribes inserted the word brother of goliath, to gloss over this contradiction

in a attempt to elevate Yahweh to a single creator god, yahwist propagandist or the guardians of dogma as dr Immanuel velikovsky (http://varchive.org/calls) them, the entire of history of the middle east has been turned on it's head.

dr velikovsky thoroughly explores is the synchronization of akkadian cuneiform tablets written in assyro-babylonian(akkadian) in the archives of tel el amarna in egypt under king amonhotep111 and amonhotep1V/ankhetaton with annual of shalmanserIII and the books of chronicles and kings in the torah and the mesha stella. The mesha stella was erected by the king of moab who rebelled against the kingdom of Israel in the time of the book of kings and the armana tablets where mesha is mentioned exactly.

The guardians of dogma place ankhetaton 600 years before the book of chronicles and kings.

The Amarna tablet are correspondence between the king of Egypt and the kings of samaria, king of judah and many other prince cities as these were all vassals of the king of Egypt in this period. But in 1500bc when ankhetaton was corresponding with these kingships…. The kingdoms did not exist. For that matter the Hebrew people did not exist let alone the kingdoms of Judah and Samaria, yet Hebrew idioms were used in the amarna tablets. Again all these correlations are verified in the amarna tablets
And once again the experts simply shut their eyes and record only what the guardians of dogma allow you to believe.

the purpose by the yahwist propaganist was to separate ankhetaten ,the first monotheist, from the time of king omnri and king Ahab and king Jehoshaphat because the want to institute Yahweh as the first and sole creator god.

to this day "establishment" archeology places ankhetaton in the 15th century and simply refused to integrate that the cuniform tablet archives of tel el amarna record Akhenaten corresponding with the kings of samaria and judah. they want the evidence to show Yahweh was the first monotheistic god.

Velikovsky's research has been genuinely discredited
this is a total lie. his discoveries are being blackballed by the yahwist gaurdians of dogma just like tesla's life was destroyed by the same Yahwistic guardians of dogma.i

I have you blocked but I knew you would come up with your standard model worship.

how can you discredit cuniform tablets that mention jerulasalem ,samaria and Judah at least 5 hundred years before these cities existed. how can you discredit the use of Hebrew loan words 6-700 hundred years before Hebrew existed. how can you discredit the mention specically of the revolt of moab,mentioning the king mesha, 500 to 600 hundred years before these happened.the amarna tablet are written in akkadian which was the lingua franca of the late bronze age. this language is well researched and there can be no mistake as to what they concern. for that matter these archives also mentioned the jannu which was the word used for the early greeks. but in 1500bc the greeks did not exist.
tell me again how these facts are totally dscredited

this is exactly why I don't pay any attention to you. you don't even try to refute the facts that exist but rely of yahwist dogma to just dismiss these scientific contradictions .

the above are facts in written on cuneiform tablets.

for that matter, you say velikovsky has been discredited.
one of his famous prediction was that venus was a comet. within the last decade it was found that the hydroxyl levels in venus atmosphere are the same as in comets and no other planet has these hydrozl concentration. then scientist also found that Venus has an ionized tail following it around in orbit.no planet has an ionized tail but all comets have ionized tails. nealyr every prediction he made in 1940 has been verifies since the age of exploration of the solar system.
velokivsky predicted a surface temperature of at least 600 degrees in 1940 and then lo and behold in the 60's it was found that venus had a surface temperature of 900 degrees. and don't give me that "it is caused by the hot house affect" this supposition is not supported by any theory. no scientist has given any sort of an explanation of how the "hot house affect" works. but it is politically correct to throw this supposition out because currently the hot house affect is being used to explain heat rises on this planet.

for that matter velikovsky wrote in 1940 that neflimn could be interpreted as aliens coming to earth, but did not publish this because he said the culture was not prepared to accept these concepts. now Zechariah sitzkin et.al. are rich and famous for writing about the alien origin of civilization not to speak of the 100,000 thousands of ufo sighting in this century. of course as you would say these are all false and unbalanced people. hmmm ex president carter admitted he had seen ufo etc....

why don't you speak to the scientific facts instead of mouthing the scientific yahwist dogma..............

this is my complain with you for10 years and why I ignore you ,you mouth new world order dogma but try to cloak yourself as an authority.

deal with facts instead of yahwist dogma. you are totally wrong.

and once again you follow your traditional passive aggressive style. you cant refute the facts so your turn to ridicule and you continue to try to negate my words by casting me as anti Semitic But he was a staunch supporter of Israel and a Zionist "C'mon, rahu. You can't have him both ways

i probably have more Jewish blood than you do. my grandfather was born a jew.
but this thread is not about jews, it is about the genocidal cultural philosophies of the yahwist

that may be true but they should add that alien visitors may also be part of the devil identity.

many people are critical of sitzchen. and after reading the last book before his death I have some new reservations. not so much with his previous works, but I believe he died before the last volume was finished because the last couple of chapters are filled with yahwist evangelical fallacies in addition to historical fallacies. sitzchen was very well educated and the historical lies that appear in the last chapters could not have been penned by the same man that wrote the body of his work. I am specifically referring to the account of what happened after the death of alexander the great. the "story" given in the book is that his heirs were immediately killed, including alexander's brother and alexander's child by Roxanne who was being taken care of by his brother. this is so far away from the truth ,with so many lies that sitzchen ,as a scholar would have never written it. the true history is that after alexander death there was not a blood letting, which did finally occur a year after alexander's death. but in the immediate aftermath all this generals pledged allegiance to alexander heir. the problem was ,who was going to be alexander heir?
all the general retained control of the areas that had already had and for almost a year when ever problem or agreements arose ,the generals would erect alexander's war tent and place his throne inside and then discuss the problems. His bother did not have custody of alexander's child by Roxanne,in fact his brother was mentally challenged as we say and could not care for himself. so the army took care of alexander's brother and transported him throughout the wars in their baggage train. after alexander died, the generals tried to exclude his brother as the potential heir. and when the generals attempted this the army rose in revolt. as a consequence, his brother was placed back in contention as heir. alexander had a half brother who was not legitimate(political correctness is out of hand) in Macedonia which normally would exclude him from the throne. but alexander's mother took him under her wing and he was for a time considered in contention. Roxanne took her son to Macedonia(as I recall her son was born in Macedonia after alexander died)

but after about a year the generals broken into open warfare to rule the splinter empire and indeed all alexander's potential heirs were murdered.
but that sitchen last book included such erroneous statements made me start to wonder. part of the problem fr me was that the last chapter started getting into the messiah controversy and it seems a evangelical author finished the book. it seems the purpose was to say the messiah had come there fore legitimizing the state of Israel. there are today harim groups who deny Israel has a right to exist because it is written that the messiah must come before Israel can be created. since the messiah has not come Israel has no right to exist of course as evangelical erroneously call jesus the messiah and god, these attitudes played into the ultra right likud yahwist stance..

still I am aware of the controversy around sitzchen, but his vision,to me has more validity now, that UFO are so prevalent. whether these are god or bad influences ,the fact of their existed seem correct.
http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/...o-2507504.html
Putin Says Alien Hybrids aka Reptilians are the Ruling Class
Shockwaves are reverberating around the Kremlin today as word spreads regarding an extraordinary meeting called by Vladimir Putin yesterday where, according to sources, the Russian president said that “95% of the world’s ruling class are not even human,” but are “cold-blooded hybrids” who are “members of an ancient cult.”

the historical fact of Constantine instutionalizing Christianity , would go along with this theme. the facts is Diocletian followed by Constantine had set out to change the makeup of the roman empire and install was is called the Dominate. which is a political system hat gave autocratic powers to he emperor.
bear I mind that the rulers and dictators of rome all claimed to be "the first citizen of rome". the city of rome and it's people had for hundreds of years been the true rulers. for that matter the roman citzens could throw out any bishop of rome elected by the Vatican. this continued until the 11th century ad.
up until Diocletian the roman empire was divided into provinces. the cities within these providences were somewhat autonomous to the degree that taxes raised were split 3 way.1/3 to the "civil leader" who were not always nobles, 1/3 to the roman garrisons and 1/3 sent back to roman.but Diocletian and Constantine wanted to dictate everything including the amount of taxes they demanded. but the existing system was hundreds of years old and there was not way to change it. well almost no way. so what these 2 emperors did was to create completely new political divisions. the called them Dioceses (ring a bell ) so the fundamental division of the catholic church was in the beginning a completely secular concept. in addition the emperors created Vicars to rule these divisions. so the fact is that these intuitions of the roman catholic church were not religious in the beginning. one must keep in mind that the roman emperor appointed all church officials until the 11th century AD. the bishop of roman had no say what so ever .

so the premise of the book noted is a bit off ,but the dynamics are in fact historical.

another piece of historiczl trivia is that after the Dominate was established a "Trust Fund"(I can't recall the official designation) was set up. this was made up of all the lands that belonged directly to the emeperor . before the Dominate was established all the land of the roman empire belonged to the roman citizens.
the actual break between the church of the west and the church of the east came when the church of the west gave control of this trust fund to secular monet lenders. the church of the east kept direct control of their Trust Fund. it could be asserted this is why the church of the east remain sovereign until the 14th century whereas the roman church was conquered some 100 year's after Constantine Christianized the roman empire.















rrahu


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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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Originally Posted by rahu View Post
Excavations in 1976 found pottery shard at Kuntillet `Ajrud with allusions to Yahweh and asherah.
Asherah is a name for the mother goddess and it is the name for the enclosure that held the sacred serpent. The sacred serpent had always been a feminine symbol until the Yahwistic editors of the torah turned the serpent into a masculine symbol . Asherah is also associated with sacred trees and groves.
How could Yahweh be a creator god when he was a consort to asherah, a mother goddess symbol.

rrahu


Sad thing of it is, she was not Yawheh's to begin with:

Pictures say a thousand words:



Sabian Symbol 21-22 deg Virgo A Royal Coat Of Arms Enriched With Precious Stones

There is a strong connection to heritage. This can give rise to feelings of pride and honor. There are things to stand up for and to represent. Believing in yourself and your abilities will give you strength and stability. By tapping into your deepest self or your emotions, you can find a tap-root back to your ancestors or those who have gone before. They stood for something really wonderful and now it seems it is your turn to take on the mantle, at least in some measure. Having to live up to the ideals or aspirations of others can be a tiring and burdensome responsibility, unless, of course, you are wanting the same things. No matter what your personal history, there is a royalty inside that you can access with faith in yourself.




The Ten Commandments film incorrectly portrays her as a peacock (Pavo, epsilon).

The female counterpart to Anubis

--------------------------------------------------------------



Anput with Montu (Satan) instead of Anubis


The Horned God (Montu/Satan/Yahweh) and Mother Goddess (Anput/Mary Magdalene/Lilith)


Link to an article:
Yahweh and Asherah by Ronald L. Ecker

Needless to say, the thought behind these metaphors of Yahweh the husband physically abusing his wife presents a challenge to modern biblical interpreters. Through such imagery "the Bible," writes Sharon H. Ringe in The Women痴 Bible Commentary,
"seems to bless the harm and abuse with which women live and sometimes die."
The mid-point for the fixed stars Cor Caroli (Chara) and Polis falls on the fixed star Zuben Elgenubi.

Loss, theft, betrayal, abuse, venereal disease, poisoning, drowning, anguish, revenge, criminality



--------------------------------------

Are you guy's understanding?
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Unread 04-04-2016, 11:12 PM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Maybe it is interesting to add that Yahweh character has 2,821,364 confirmed killings in the Old Testament (25 million with estimates). Now, one thing is for certain: he doesn't like people that much. This is obvious, especially if we take into account some of his reasoning for the killings (like Num 16:49, God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings). Still, I think the text is valuable as one of the earliest works of horror literature in human history.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....-in-bible.html
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Rahu, this is kind of old news, no matter how fascinating. Are you familiar with these books?

Raphael Patai, The Hebrew Goddess. Originally published in 1978. I have the 3rd 1990 ed. Patai was a rabbi and scholar of Judaism. The first chapter is on Asherah.

Merlin Stone, When God was a Woman. (1976)

Asherah (plural Ashteroth) is/are mentioned several times in the Bible, and figurines probably representing her have long been known from archaeological sites. The Bible strongly condemns her worship, which is probably one indication that she was widely venerated.

Another book that might interest you is by rabbi Richard Elliott Friedman, Who Wrote the Bible? (1987) Friedman looked at biblical criticism (I. e., the linguistic evidence from the original Hebrew, the so-called J, P, and E texts,) and concluded that a great deal of ancient politics went into the codification of the Old Testament (Jewish Bible) that we know today.

If you've not read these books and your local public library doesn't have them, you can get them through Inter-Library loan at your local library branch.

Another point to consider is that several ancient female deities are indicated in the OT, not just Asherah. The figure of Wisdom (Hochma in Hebrew, Sophia in Greek) in the book of Proverbs says that she was with God in The Beginning.

Scholars have been looking at your questions for decades. They may not have complete answers, but there is a lot of published research out there that might interest you.

For some reason, monotheistic ancient Judaism determined to dispense with the feminine face of God, despite her re-appearance in figures like Asherah, Wisdom, Astarte, Anath, Ishtar (Esther,) the Shekinah, the Matronit, and even the People of Israel as the "bride" of God. (See Patai's book on them.)

The issues are far deeper than your posts indicate, and actually far more feminist. [deleted baiting comments~moderator]
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

One more thing I might mention is that the Bible, both New and Old Testaments, is full of seeming contradictions, starting with the differing creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2. Philologists looked at the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and concluded that different portions of the Bible were penned by different people who did not share the same version of events. This field of study is called biblical criticism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_criticism Generally, the ancient scholars who codified the Bible chose to leave in and collate conflicting accounts that they thought had true merit. They didn't always decide who was right and who was wrong, and discount the "wrong" version.

Another point of which you are probably aware is that there were many sacred texts in circulation during biblical and immediate post-biblical times. Some of these are mentioned in the Bible itself (like the lost Book of the Wars of the Lord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_o...rs_of_the_Lord ) while others have been retrieved and published in English translations, like the Dead Sea scrolls and the Gnostic gospels. These extra-biblical narratives shed light on the range of Jewish and Christian religious beliefs and historical narratives that were never incorporated in the Bible. (See, especially, the Nag Hammadi library or the research of Elaine Pagels on the Gnostic gospels for examples.)
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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Rahu, this is kind of old news, no matter how fascinating. Are you familiar with these books?

.
my point is that the discovery of Yahweh and asherah was not made public for nearly 40 years. I think that fact this discovery was not made public for so long bears scrutiny.

you googled a nice list of references but none of these deal with the fact that Yahweh could not be the creator god if Yahweh was a consort of asherah in the 11th century b.c. Yahweh could not have spoken to moses on mt Sinai as the war with the kings of Israel and sumeria occurred around 1000bc. Yahweh was a cult god at that time as shown by his association with asherah.

in fact the people of Israel and sumeria and were followers of the goddess religions as late as king Hezekiah.
the yahwist war with the goddess religion resulted in a weakening of Israel to the degree that the Assyrians easily conquered and led the part of jewish people into the Babylonian exile.



if you read merlin stones book , you might have known that asherah was also term for a "temple' that housed the sacred serpent, in addition to the goddess's name and the sacred tree and pillars associated with the goddess religion .the yahwist editors of the torah made the serpent a male so as to continue their degradation of the Hebrew goddess worship for purely political reasons and economic reasons

in addition merlin stone was of the opinion that the levites were indo European people that migrated into the levant. the levites were not an original tribe of the hebrews. there religious statue of the levites only began under king david when he gave made them bears of the sacred trumpets in the temple. to say moses and aaron were levites is a yahwist attempt to back date the history of the levites. if moses had been a levite, he would have never given the temple cultus into the hands of the house of zadok.
throughout the book of Samuel 2 it is stated that david made zadok the high priest and the levite priesthood followed.but again this is Yahwist propaganda as it was the house of zadok that ruled the temple cultus ,not an individual named zadok per se.

for that matter the levites never consolidated their religious power until the after Maccabean revolution circsa 150 b.c.

and of course I am sure you know the torah was not written down until late exile time or when the return of from the Babylonian exile occurred.
so the written word recorded a history that was up 500 years in the past.
as such the real history was lost to yahwist censors.

no one even knows the real name of king Solomon, as this epithet meaning wise was given to him in post exilic times .

[deleted personal comment could be construed as attacking`moderator]

if jesus was from house of david, why did he say:eli,eli lama sabachthani and not
Yahweh,Yahweh lama sabachthani.
obviously his god was Eli not Yahweh.

the indo-european origin of the levites is also made clear by the fact that Jesus descent is described from along the male line of david, when in fact Judaism is matriarchial, you aren't jewish by birth if only your father is jewish.

edgar Cayce believed mary was from the line of david.this make sense if you are intent of validating king david.
but the levites can't have celestial empowered women .

but of course reason has nothing to do with our prejudices does it?

  • waymentioned a book{edited out personal commets~moderator} When God Was a Woman. this was something my ineede to read. But I had read thath long ago andi had tolaugh because this book totally makesmy points.in fact to use this a book to rebut ,mewas in fsact shooting herselfin the foot, as this book describes the levite/yahwist as indoeuropeans wbho conquered the jews and paced themselves as the overlord. She sites Leviticus a proof because of the oriental rich appareland precious stone laden garments the other tribes had to provide. She made the point that the levites were not given any territories my god and therefore the other tribes had to support them.
  • in 1kings where jehosphat places Levites to rule ach tribe(and the yahwist still killed jehosphat anyway) and sent the book of yahwe to govern the tribes .merlin stones point is that the levites sole purpose was to take over the land and revenues of the mother goddess. Religion was incidental, it was essential all political. {deleted attacking comment`moderator}
This lack of religious content remains to this day. There is no orthodox belief system in Judaism. In fact you don’t have to believe in anything in the sacred books. What you do have to do to be jewish in good standing is to follow the cultus. Observe the Sabbath and observe all rituals and holy days. It makes no difference if you believe in god or the ritual all that matters is what you do. Judaism is a orthopraxis. It is not a orthodox religion even if the ultraorthodox sects what to call themselves such. Christianity is orthodox. Every Christian must accept Jesus is god and the evangelicals must accept Jesus as their savior and god.
Likely this evolved as the levite yahwist waged war against the kings of Israel and the people, they were never able to eradicate the previous belief in the elohoim(male and female gods) this is shown because even as the yahwist rewrote thehistory they still had to include the elohim’s version. Such as two stories of creation and in many other books conflicting stories such as king ahabs death.
Dr velikovshy wrote in Oedipus and akenhetaten that the Magi (Persian/indo european )practiced Xvaetuadatha of the ancient Iranian Persians or Xvetokdas as it is written the Pahlavi religious and judicial texts. This was the religious belief that marriage between parents and children and between uterine brothers and sisters was of the highest religious expression . it seems that the yahwist kabbalist retain a form of these beliefs in the high incidence of what today we call sexual abuse. The kaballah allows that a female baby becomes a virgin again when she turns 3 years old. The ruthkessness of king david can be explain by kabalistic tenets, as gentiles and for that matter jews who do not follow the kabbalah have fewer rights that animals I the kabbalah. A kabbalahist can lie,cheat,stealor kill a gentile with no moral consequences at all.
Could this be part of the rationale for the likud assassination of itzak rabin? His murderer was held up as a hero by the likud and Netanyahu. Rabin was considered one of the most secular of all Israeli prinme ministers. He was a practicing jew , he just wasn’t fanatically. Though there may other reason such as rabin being ,the first sabra, native Israeli born prime minister.
The sexual morale of jewish culture was elucidated in 1980
At the turn of the 20th century Psychoanalysis was considered a pure Jewish intellectual system. Freud wanted to universalize this attitude which is why he wanted carl junge to take a leadership role.juge was selected to psychoanalysis freud, as every psychiatrist must undergo psychoanalysis as part of his professional training.
This is worth note , as carl junge and other were of the mind that freud had an incestual relationship with his neice/. In fact , jung broke with freud for this exact reason. Jung was psychoanalyzing Freud and when he brought up his neice freud broke off the therapy.\
Freud was of the mind in ,civilization and it’s discontent, that civilization is direct function to our repressing incestual behavior. The more civilized we become the further we push away are impulses for incest. In the 80’s letters were made public in which Freud wrote that early in his practice he was finding that 38% of his clients had sexual abuse as the causal factor in their mental problems.
In fact he was counseling the son of Wilhelm fleiss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Fliess
and flies had revealed he was sexual abused by his father. The letter further reported that Freud had felt pressured to retreat from this perspective by the existing psychoanalytical establishment for fear his career would be ended. Psychoanalytical theory , as late as 1970 ,stated sexual abuse accounted for only 2% of the underlying problems..
I bring these concept up because the worlds current political situation is about to be altered.
The likud and Netanyahu are changing the Israeli rabbinate from one with torahic scholars to one with kabbalist scholars .as the old torahic rabbis retire the new rabbi’s are all kabbalists.
Instead of being religiously inclusive under the torah, Israel is becoming a society ruled by schism and racism .



rahu

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Unread 04-05-2016, 11:43 PM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Rahu, the knowledge has been public for a long time. There was life before the internet, people read books. Some of us still do.

It was an orthodox rabbi who explained to me (back in the 1960s) about how we got tefillin from the Canaanites - kind of a 'we met the enemy and they is us' deal, and how a lot of the Jewish holidays are based on old pagan fertility festivals.

There is an asherah prayer in Judaism, has been since - well, probably forever. Sofia is mentioned in the bible. There are also hundreds, if not thousands of god names, and not all of them are masculine.

I think you're also asking for trouble if you expect all the stories from a religion to be literally true.
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Unread 04-06-2016, 01:47 AM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

I know about asherah mentioned in the bible. the philistines put king sauls head in their asherah and I believe saul had a asherah.
but the archeological remains indicating Yahweh was associated with asherah was not made know when the pottery was found.

but there have been other important archeological disinformation in Israel .
the one that comes to mind is the renown yigael yadins assertion that he had found the pottery shards lots which the defenders of masada had used to determine the order in which the defenders would kill each others so as to not ne captured by the romans. I read about thisdecades ago, but after yigeal's death, it turned out to be false. the afore mentioned shard were never excavated.

you still to not address the problem of how a cult god (Yahweh)could have been the omnipotent god of the Hebrews. how could the One god be associated with a goddess ?

I don't expect an answer as the facts throw doubt on the true nature of Yahweh.

rahu

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Unread 04-06-2016, 07:13 AM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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my point is that the discovery of Yahweh and asherah was not made public for nearly 40 years. I think that fact this discovery was not made public for so long bears scrutiny.
Well, when do you think this material was first discovered? The churches and synagogues probably didn't teach it to their Sunday school classes, but biblical scholars have been onto this material for a long time. There wasn't some kind of conspiracy to suppress the scholarship within the secular academy.

Quote:
you googled a nice list of references but none of these deal with the fact that Yahweh could not be the creator god if Yahweh was a consort of asherah in the 11th century b.c. Yahweh could not have spoken to moses on mt Sinai as the war with the kings of Israel and sumeria occurred around 1000bc. Yahweh was a cult god at that time as shown by his association with asherah.
I didn't google the books I cited. They are in my personal collection. I recommend them.

Rahu, if this topic interests you, you really need to read up on biblical criticism, as I indicated above. Otherwise your analysis can become too simplistic.

Basically biblical philologists noted well over a century ago that the original Hebrew word usage in different parts of the Bible was so different that it was doubtful the disparate sections were written by the same person or group. "Yahweh" is not mentioned in Genesis 1. The word for the creator God in Genesis 1 is the plural "Elohim." (The Bible uses several different names for God, not just "Yahweh.") In the parallel but different account of creation in Genesis 2, Elohim is not mentioned but "Yahweh" is. So are we looking at two different versions of God? Or two distinctly different Gods?

These two accounts and others that follow in the Bible that give two different versions of an event also typically give different names for God. The unknown authors are called J (Yahwist,) E (Elohist), P (Priestly Source) and D (Deuteronomist.) More recent scholarship gets a lot more complicated than this, but my essential point is that the Bible does not give one single deity called "Yahweh" as the creator, but actually incorporates one major and several minor deities into the Judeo-Christian God. (See Friedman's book cited above.) One of these minor stories essentially casts God as creating the world through slaying a sea monster, much like Marduk in the older Babylonian lore.

It is very clear that biblical narratives have much older roots, many of them in Mesopotamia and Egypt.

The goddess Asherah actually originated long before the Bible was written, in Sumer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah She diffuses to other parts of the Near East. In the Bible, she is also referred to as the Queen of Heaven. Sometimes in the semi-pagan religious practices that the prophets condemned in the Hebrew people, God did have a queen or consort. But sometimes this was a goddess other than Asherah.

Quote:
in fact the people of Israel and sumeria and were followers of the goddess religions as late as king Hezekiah.
the yahwist war with the goddess religion resulted in a weakening of Israel to the degree that the Assyrians easily conquered and led the part of jewish people into the Babylonian exile.

if you read merlin stones book , you might have known that asherah was also term for a "temple' that housed the sacred serpent, in addition to the goddess's name and the sacred tree and pillars associated with the goddess religion .the yahwist editors of the torah made the serpent a male so as to continue their degradation of the Hebrew goddess worship for purely political reasons and economic reasons
I've got Stone's book, thanks. There is some difference of opinion as to what it meant to "cut down" an asherah, suggesting it might have been some kind of pillar or tree.

Serpents were common in all kinds of ancient and folk religions. If you are interested in a feminist interpretation of the historical demotion of Near Eastern goddesses, see Tikva Frymer-Kensky, In the Wake of the Goddesses.

....
Quote:
and of course I am sure you know the torah was not written down until late exile time or when the return of from the Babylonian exile occurred.
so the written word recorded a history that was up 500 years in the past.
as such the real history was lost to yahwist censors.

no one even knows the real name of king Solomon, as this epithet meaning wise was given to him in post exilic times .

Well, in Hebrew Solomon's name is pronounced Shlomo. I think you're correct that a lot of political jockeying occurred within ancient Israel, and that some of it was reflected in the composition of the Bible handed down to us today. Again, there are extra-biblical and archaeological materials out there that help to give a more complete picture of religious belief in biblical times.
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Unread 04-06-2016, 09:33 AM
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Smile Re: Yahweh and Asherah

"Cherry-picking" is a term scholars use for those researchers who choose the generally agreed-upon facts that support their favorite theories and ignore those that don't. Everyone with a pet theory does it (myself included when it comes to the historical record of the Astrological Ages; everyone proposing "Ages" does). The question is, are there enough scholarly facts that support the theory to make those that don't inconsequential? By "scholarly", I mean facts generated by open-minded researchers without an axe to grind for any particular theory in their field of expertise. Waybread in this case is being scholarly, and Rahu has the theory to support, and has quite a few "cherries in the basket" to do just that, when it comes to the masculinization of Religion. The Virgin Mary doesn't have the status according to Orthodox Christianity to be considered a "goddess" in the ancient sense. The Hebrew God as NOW GENERALLY KNOWN is One and Male. Masculinization HAS morphed into male-domination in religion. And there ARE those who are actively against publicizing the facts concerning that matter, even though the scholars know about them in a passive manner. But where would we be without the scholarly researchers? Goddess bless them! Btw.,according to many scholars I've read, Zeus/Jupiter was derived from the male version of the Hebrew God. Age of Tropical Sagitarius [IMO].

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Unread 04-06-2016, 05:41 PM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Rahu, I don't know what has been your religious education and background. Were you taught to take the Bible literally? I was raised by two secular non-believing Christian parents who called themselves "free thinkers" so I had little formal religious education. I became a "Jew by choice" when I married my ex husband, but have been inactive in Judaism for over 20 years. I do, however, have a strong avocational interest in western religions and mythology.

Consequently, I don't take most of the Bible literally. Nor do many scholars of ancient Israel. I think there is some solid history in the Bible, but that most of it is metaphorical. Much of it is a reworking of older Babylonian and Egyptian materials. New religions do not emerge in a cultural vacuum.

What materials got into the Bible and which materials were excluded is a fascinating topic, relating to the politicization of religious affiliations in ancient Israel. As you know, biblical archaeology is highly politicized today, as it is deployed to validate (or invalidate) the modern state of Israel. Are you familiar with the debates in the magazine Biblical Archaeology?

The evidence for "Yahweh's consort" has been around for a long time. Asherah doesn't emerge for the first time in Israel, but was known from Mesopotamia previously, as your chronology suggests. But in the political context within which religious institutions operate, monotheistic and masculinist Judaism pruned away much of this material. Yet even a child could read that the Bible itself condemns the Israelites for worshipping the Queen of Heaven, and that the feminine Wisdom (Hochma in Hebrew, Sophia in Greek, Sapentia in Latin) of Proverbs) claims to have been with God in the Beginning.

So it seems that we are on the same page about a goddess (or three) being widely acknowledged and worshipped in OT times.

But why should biblical politics surprise us? Throughout history, religions have been divided into different competing factions, with one out to suppress the other.

Moreover, as I mentioned above, "Yahweh" is by no means the only creator god mentioned in Genesis. He's not given in Genesis 1: Elohim is. Elohim is plural in the Hebrew language. (El was also the name of the neighbouring Phoenician/Syrian father god.) Rabbis and scholars debated over the centuries who these plural beings In the Beginning might have been. Angels? Cherubim and Seraphim? Living creatures created before Adam? An intriguing hypothesis is that the plural Elohim might have included Asherah.

I do recommend the book I cited yesterday, In the Wake of the Goddesses. The demotion of formerly powerful Near Eastern goddesses was not unique to ancient Judaism, but occurred elsewhere amongst neighbouring pantheistic faiths, as well. Early Mesopotamian goddesses with sole autonomy and authority over their domains, over the centuries, became demoted to wives of gods and then virtually erased as figures of authority in their own right. The highly powerful Mesopotamian planetary goddess Inanna became demoted in the Bible to the morning star Venus-- to be punished for daring to precede the sun god. (Some astrology here, BTW.)

There is a fascinating loop with all this material to astrology: for another example, the prototype of the Roman god (and planet) Mercury was originally a Sumerian goddess called Nisaba or Nidaba, who ruled scribes and founded astrology. She became the subsidiary wife of the Babylonian planetary god of Mercury, called Nabu, who eventually took over her functions. As Babylonian beliefs diffused into ancient Greece, the god Hermes took on Nabu's functions.

There are also some interesting religious histories about the evolution of the Judeo-Christian concepts and personifications of God, if you're interested. As with other religions, you do find a lot of syncretism amongst neighbouring faiths, and change over time in terms of how a particular deity was construed.

I find all of this intriguing. Just not shocking or upsetting.
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Here is one of the figurines believed to be an idol of Asherah. Many similar figurines have been uncovered. The woman holding her breasts is believed to symbolize her fertility and motherhood towards her people.

Have you seen this site? https://thequeenofheaven.wordpress.c...ide-of-yahweh/

The author notes that a name given to Asherah was simply "Elat," or goddess, with the feminine ending on the Near Eastern word for the father god El. Hebrew has masculine and feminine endings for both singular and plural nouns, and if a group includes both males and females, the plural masculine ending takes precedence.

So who knows. Just possibly the Elohim of Genesis 1 included an Elat or goddess (or several) amidst their number. A more correct translation of Elohim might be "gods" instead of God, but your Sunday school class wouldn't go there!

As has been noted by Jewish feminists, the English of Genesis 1 reads: "God [Elohim] created man in His own image, male and female He created them," could be read as evidence for a goddess participating in creation.

I personally interpret God more metaphorically and less gendered, but you might find their line of reasoning worth pursuing.
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Question Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Waybread, from your studies, would you comment on the Christian "Satan" as it relates (or, in your view doesn't relate) to the Roman god Saturn? Thanks!
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Gosh, David-- I hadn't made a study of it. In my universe, Satan is a collective figment of the imagination. (I read the Bible metaphorically.) But even so, from the beginnings of Babylonian astrology, the planetary god Saturn was considered highly malefic. In Hellenistic astrology Saturn is responsible for all kinds of evils that befall people. It would be a logical connection to bridge it with Satan. Interesting, Liz Greene called her foray into modern astrology publishing Saturn: A New Look at An Old Devil.

I think the most complete development of Satan in the Bible is in the book of Job, where Satan tests not only Job, but God.

Initially Lucifer "light-bringer" was a different entity but the two got conflated in post-biblical times.

Apparently the career of Satan took off in post-OT times, and in ways that are distinctly non-monotheistic. Christianity equated Satan with the serpent in the Garden of Eden, as a tempter in Jesus' 40 day desert sojourn, or a rebellious fallen angel.

Personally I think humanity accounts for all of the evils of the world. We don't need to invoke an evil mythological personage to explain them.

The Roman god Saturn evolved in part from the Greek god Kronos, the ruler of time. His more distinctively Roman identity stressed his role as an agricultural god. Astrological Saturn rules agriculture. The myth of the god Saturn devouring his children is perhaps best viewed as an allegory for the ravages of time on each generation.

Not all of the Roman associations with the god Saturn were negative. Interestingly the festival of Saturnalia occurred at the winter solstice, and symbolized the passage of one solar year to the next. I think in Mithraism, another religion popular in Rome, Saturn symbolized knowledgeable elders within the congregations. Possibly this links to the position of Saturn-ruled Capricorn at the winter solstice.
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

Waybread - "Satan is a collective figment of the imagination."

I prefer to call Satan Neptune in this world, but I'm one of the few.
The deceiver, the liar, the avoider, the antagonist from the shadows, the chameleon so skilled that your pants are off before you even remembered you were wearing pants.

But everyone ends up in life with their pants off at least once.

Call it what you will, but don't blame God.
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Kitchy, if you accept my (carefully considered) premise that H12 is the collective House of Imaginations, and you associate H12 with Neptune, you and Waybread are in agreement: [Quote]"Satan is a collective figment of the imagination." An imaginary, 12th House demon. But we have personal control over which collective Imaginations we choose to allow to affect us.[IMO]
Rahu is demonizing "Yahweh", in response to the Judeo-Christian tendency to demonize and/or ignore the more ancient female deities.
The Church declared Satan "Ruler" of the material realm, a very real, supernatural being of tremendous power. Many believe that to this day.

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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

I'm not blaming God-- but perhaps Rahu blames a religious structure that involved itself in one version of events in ancient Israel.

Another "teaching moment," if I might.

Most ancient religions were pantheistic, and described their gods in a hierarchical fashion, with various gods responsible for various phenomena. These gods could be represented as human or animal figures, and oftentimes as manufactured idols that looked like humans or animals. Some of the gods were also interpreted as planets, fixed stars or constellations.

Ancient Judaism was a bit different, in that its core concept was that there was only one God, although this god had multiple attributes such as loving father or man of war that in other faiths would have been split into completely separate deities. This God could be described in bodily human terms (with an upraised arm, a back, a face,) but He was not to be represented by idols. This invisibility was just a huge factor both for ancient Jews and for their critics, who were used to tangible gods they could see. The Jewish God created through His word, unlike pagan gods who created in the usual human way: through sexual activity. This God was also in many ways a sky and weather deity. (The words "heaven" and "sky" are but one word in Hebrew.)

So long as God was construed in human terms, however, (father, king, judge, law-giver, military strategist,) He had to be assigned a gender. In the ancient Near East in the first millennium BCE, the male king was the figure with the most power. So it followed that an invisible God would still be called "He."

Then this God was not only a Creator, but He was directly and ongoingly involved in nature and agriculture, giving bountiful harvests or drought. In ancient times, people were entirely dependent upon their local crops and livestock, and hence saw their dependency on the deities who awarded or withheld rainfall, fertile soil, livestock fertility, and clement harvest weather. The Creator also controlled warfare and its devastation, as well as peace and prosperity.

Consequently to the strict monotheists of the Old Testament, there could be serious consequences in worshipping a god or goddess who did not control the environment. Were you to worship the wrong god, the true God might get annoyed and withhold rainfall, allow foreign armies to conquer you, or deny you progeny.

When the prophets forbade idol worship, it was more than the dubious rationality of praying to patently manufactured statues or figurines: it was that their real God might punish the entire nation, as rainfall and military invasions strike an entire population, not just the misguided idol worshippers.

So enter Asherah. Even as queen, could she be as powerful as the male ruler of the universe in the eyes of the first millennium BCE monotheists? Negative. Could praying or sacrificing to her idols irritate the actual God who did have control over human life and death? Yes. Might her worship even cause people to neglect the one God on whom they were physically dependent? Very likely.

So we don't have to think the way the ancient monotheists did, but it is helpful to follow their logic. (Proof texts available upon request.)

Conversely, biblical Israel was never a big nation, and migration across national boundaries was common in the ancient Near East. It was understandable that some Israelites wanted a more personal mother goddess to worship, just as Europeans 2000 years later prayed to icons of Mary as the Queen of Heaven. Maybe one year Israel did get drought while the neighbouring Phoenicians who worshipped Ba'al and Asherah did get sufficient rainfall. Maybe one's nextdoor neighbour derived more satisfaction from her Asherah worship than the monotheist felt. These "facts on the ground" could sway allegiances.

But throw all of this into a volatile political competition for religious authority, and we see an outcome of institutionalized religious winners and losers. Asherah and her adherents simply happened to be the losers. History, as we know, is written by the conquerors.
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Unread 04-07-2016, 11:32 PM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

s I expected no one will explain how Yahweh can be a creator god at the time of moses yet be the consort of asherah in the10th century bc.
Yahweh is a fiction of levitite/yahwist propaganda.

this is made obvious by part of the books of Samuel ,kings and chronicles

during the time of Elisha, there was a revolt by the king of moab named mesha .
The record in the book of kings has a few conflicting verses about this era, which would be in the reign of ahab ,king of Israel ,in samaria and the reign of Jehoshaphat ,king of Judah, in Jerusalem.
King ahab persecuted the cult of yahwe, the yahwists, and the yahwists continually tried to forment revolution against him.
As a consequence ahab killed all the members of the opposing yahwist ” 1 kings 18:3

Jehoshaphat on the other hand sent the levites to all city princes to give them the book of law of yahwe, and guide/rule them. 11chronicles 17:9
1kings 21:25 says that ahab “whom jezebel his wife stirred up”.

Jezebel brought the religion of the mother goddess. In the scripture called baal, the original form of this god was belial, a feminine god which was masculinized in the scriptures ,again to hide the goddess’s preeminence.

This time period is the beginning of the levite belief in one god. Still at this time all the ancient world was polytheistic . Yahweh had a consort, asherah in early centuries and throughout the early history the tribes of israel worshiped the indigenous mother goddess.

The levite rewriting of history of Judaism starts with he suppression of the mother goddess.

This censorship is very obvious in kings account of ahabs life.
1kings 22 ahab is wounded I battle and leaves the field of combat. He recovers and goes on to live for 3 years after jehosaphat dies. But the next line tells of ahab staying in the field of combat and dying.
The second version has ahab’s son ahaziah reigning next for 2 years and then his son jehoram reigning for 12 years and then jehu,a sonof jehosaphat, reigned.

But the first version has ahab living until after jehosaphat’s death.
Another problem is that jehoram was jehoshaphat’s son not ahabs son as written in 11chronicles 21:6.
So why is jehoram called ahab’s son. Commentators have also wondered why ahab who was against the yahwist would name a son jehoram(jahwe is exalted).

The second (accepted story of ahab) dying in battle fulfils a prophecy by Elisha that “.. dogs shall lick thy blood….dogs shall eat jezebel by the walls of jezreel.”

The second version is a obvious attempt to rewrite history and show elisha’s prophecy to be true and to erase the influence of the mother goddess under jezebel.

That the second version is a fraud is made clear by other sources from this time period.

The second version says that the king of moab, mesha, rebelled against Israel after ahabs death on the field of battle.
But a stella was found , written by mesha,king of moab. The revolt was initially successful and the stella was a written record of this rebellion and the reasons for.
Omri,ahabs father had oppressed the Moabites and moab was a vassal state to the king of smaria,omri.
Mesha writes that he rebelled when ahab had reigned half of his years.
So clearly the second version is a fraud as it says the revolt of mesha happen at the time of ahabs death.

A second source that shows the second version is incorrect is a from black obelisk of shalmanester 3,king of Assyria and Babylon .a inscription reads that in his the 6th year,he battled a coalition of Syrian and Palestinian princes at karkar. Ahab is mentioned as providing an army of 10,000 soldiers and 2,ooo chariots to the allied host against shalmanser.
In his 18th year shalmanser received “ a tribute from the men of tyre,sidon, and of jehu , of the house of omri. Omri was ahabs father. The 12years between these inscription does not leave room for jehoram to have reigned. Jehu was a son of Jehoshaphat who exterminate the line of ahab and ruled samaria(house of omri)

The second version in kings 22 says ahab son ahaziah ruled for 2 years, and then jehoram ruled for12 years and jehu ruled for a unspecified time.
But this adds up to more that the 12 years between ahab and jehu as noted in the annuals of shalmanser2. Some commentators have question whether jehoram ruled at all in samaria.

From ancient records of the same time, it is clear that the story of ahab has been censored by the yahwists/levites.

for that matter the levites never consolidated their religious power until the after Maccabean revolution circsa 150 b.c. when the last high priest of the house of zadok, left Israel and established a temple in Alexandria
because the high priesthood in Jerusalem had become a position that was bought and sold under herod antipas.

rahu
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

rahu, the answer to your question is that Asherah was borrowed from much older pre-Jewish Near Eastern cultures. Similarly a Near Eastern god with the name of Yahweh predated the penning of the Pentateuch. Although tradition credits Moses with its authorship, this isn't a view accepted by non-Orthodox biblical scholars. The OT had multiple authors, editors, and redactors, who lived in different times and places, and disagreed on many points of doctrine and versions of events. The "censorship" of Asherah was likely a political move by the faction who redacted the final edition of the Bible or its specific books.

This seems plain enough. I just don't get why this political manoeuvering surprises you.

{deleted baiting comments~moderator}

And what do you make of the Elohim? This from the Wikipedia entry on Yahweh:

"El, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[23] He was the chief of the Canaanite gods, described as "the kind, the compassionate," "the creator of creatures".[24] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, from where he presided over the Assembly of the Gods with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[24][25] The pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon;[24] the second tier was made up of their children, the "seventy sons of Athirat" (another name of Asherah).[26] Prominent in this group was Baal, with his home on Mount Zaphon; he gradually became the dominant deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

{deleted baiting comments~moderator}

Polytheism was the norm in ancient times, but it was by no means universal. Check out Buddhism, Islam, or ancient Egypt's monotheistic pharaoh Akhenaten.
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Unread 04-08-2016, 08:39 PM
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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"Cherry-picking" is a term scholars use for those researchers who choose the generally agreed-upon facts that support their favorite theories and ignore those that don't. Everyone with a pet theory does it (myself included when it comes to the historical record of the Astrological Ages; everyone proposing "Ages" does). The question is, are there enough scholarly facts that support the theory to make those that don't inconsequential? By "scholarly", I mean facts generated by open-minded researchers without an axe to grind for any particular theory in their field of expertise. Waybread in this case is being scholarly, and Rahu has the theory to support, and has quite a few "cherries in the basket" to do just that, when it comes to the masculinization of Religion. The Virgin Mary doesn't have the status according to Orthodox Christianity to be considered a "goddess" in the ancient sense. The Hebrew God as NOW GENERALLY KNOWN is One and Male. Masculinization HAS morphed into male-domination in religion. And there ARE those who are actively against publicizing the facts concerning that matter, even though the scholars know about them in a passive manner. But where would we be without the scholarly researchers? Goddess bless them! Btw.,according to many scholars I've read, Zeus/Jupiter was derived from the male version of the Hebrew God. Age of Tropical Sagitarius [IMO].

Zeus/Jupiter was derived from the male version of the Hebrew God. Age of Tropical Sagitarius

not quite, all classical gods are derived from the Sumerian pantheon which is 1000's of years before the Hebrew god.
http://skyscript.co.uk/jupitermyth.html
In Mesopotamia, the planet Jupiter was known as Neberu and associated with the god Marduk. He was the patron god of Babylon, and considered equivalent to the older Sumerian god Enlil

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Unread 04-08-2016, 09:32 PM
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Zeus/Jupiter was derived from the male version of the Hebrew God. Age of Tropical Sagitarius

not quite, all classical gods are derived from the Sumerian pantheon which is 1000's of years before the Hebrew god.
http://skyscript.co.uk/jupitermyth.html
In Mesopotamia, the planet Jupiter was known as Neberu and associated with the god Marduk. He was the patron god of Babylon, and considered equivalent to the older Sumerian god Enlil

rahu
"Fall of Man" correlates temporally to the Fall Season of Tropical Ages. Foreground Age of Libra (C. 4850-3100 B.C.) Sumerian; Age of Libra overlapping (Background/Traditionalistic) Age accompanying the Foreground. Age of Scorpio, C. 3100-1350 B.C.) Babylonian; Foreground Age of Scorpio, Ancient Egypt; Foreground Age of Sagittarius (C.1350 B.C.-400A.d.), Greco-Roman/Judean. Perhaps it's more accurate to say the Greeks EQUATED Zeus with the Male version of the Hebrew God, and that both were derived from the Sumero/Babylonian god associated with the Planet now known as Jupiter. "Dark Age" begins the Winter Season of Ages (C.400A.d.) and breaks away from the transitional polytheism of the Fall Ages. Originally (Fall Season) "No other gods BEFORE Him"; Age of Capricorn (Winter Season) ONLY One God. And, no Goddess.

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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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"Fall of Man" correlates temporally to the Fall Season of Tropical Ages. Foreground Age of Libra (C. 4850-3100 B.C.) Sumerian; Age of Libra overlapping (Background/Traditionalistic) Age accompanying the Foreground. Age of Scorpio, C. 3100-1350 B.C.) Babylonian; Foreground Age of Scorpio, Ancient Egypt; Foreground Age of Sagittarius (C.1350 B.C.-400A.d.), Greco-Roman/Judean. Perhaps it's more accurate to say the Greeks EQUATED Zeus with the Male version of the Hebrew God, and that both were derived from the Sumero/Babylonian god associated with the Planet now known as Jupiter. "Dark Age" begins the Winter Season of Ages (C.400A.d.) and breaks away from the transitional polytheism of the Fall Ages. Originally (Fall Season) "No other gods BEFORE Him"; Age of Capricorn (Winter Season) ONLY One God. And, no Goddess.
as you keep referring to this jumble of speculations you might be interested in something more concise and substantial
http://varchive.org/ce/hebcos.htm
A Hebrew Cosmogony

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"Fall of Man" correlates temporally to the Fall Season of Tropical Ages. Foreground Age of Libra (C. 4850-3100 B.C.) Sumerian; Age of Libra overlapping (Background/Traditionalistic) Age accompanying the Foreground. Age of Scorpio, C. 3100-1350 B.C.) Babylonian; Foreground Age of Scorpio, Ancient Egypt; Foreground Age of Sagittarius (C.1350 B.C.-400A.d.), Greco-Roman/Judean. Perhaps it's more accurate to say the Greeks EQUATED Zeus with the Male version of the Hebrew God, and that both were derived from the Sumero/Babylonian god associated with the Planet now known as Jupiter. "Dark Age" begins the Winter Season of Ages (C.400A.d.) and breaks away from the transitional polytheism of the Fall Ages. Originally (Fall Season) "No other gods BEFORE Him"; Age of Capricorn (Winter Season) ONLY One God. And, no Goddess.
Age of Sagittarius is now Background/Traditionalistic to the current Foreground Age of Capricorn, which is Atheistic: Money and Time Worship (in the secular definition of "worship"). So Fall Seasonal religion has been "modified" to survive in Winter conditions. Looking back at Foreground Age of Sag. ruled by Jupiter, it appears the Malefics had a lot of influence on religious beliefs; and still do.
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as you keep referring to this jumble of speculations you might be interested in something more concise and substantial
http://varchive.org/ce/hebcos.htm
A Hebrew Cosmogony

rahu
It's not "jumbled". It very neatly lays out the Age-influence explaining the development of Religion through the Ages. The power-number 7 is from the Age of Libra, 8 primal gods for Ancient Egypt, 9 muses and the 9-stem candelabra (originally 7-stem from the Age of Libra) for the Age of Sagittarius, and now the base-10, atheistic Age of Capricorn and its marvelous technology. So, no surprise that the number 7 is vital to the Hebrew Cosmology. Or that this first Age of the Winter-season of Ages is clearly of a different order from those of the Fall-season. "The New World Order", from the Latin, "Novus ordo seclorum", meaning "New order of the Ages".

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Re: Yahweh and Asherah

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Rahu, the knowledge has been public for a long time. There was life before the internet, people read books. Some of us still do.

It was an orthodox rabbi who explained to me (back in the 1960s) about how we got tefillin from the Canaanites - kind of a 'we met the enemy and they is us' deal, and how a lot of the Jewish holidays are based on old pagan fertility festivals.

There is an asherah prayer in Judaism, has been since - well, probably forever. Sofia is mentioned in the bible. There are also hundreds, if not thousands of god names, and not all of them are masculine.

I think you're also asking for trouble if you expect all the stories from a religion to be literally true.
It was an orthodox rabbi who explained to me (back in the 1960s) about how we got tefillin from the Canaanites -

Excavations in 1976 found pottery shard at Kuntillet `Ajrud with allusions to Yahweh and asherah. Asherah is a name for the mother goddess

the evidence of yawheh and his consort asherah were found a bit after the 1960's in 1976(and notpublishedtil2006)and I am quite sure your rabbi did not assert yahweh had a consort at all.

I think you're also asking for trouble if you expect all the stories from a religion to be literally true

well I suggest you tell this to the likud party of netayahu as they belief so fervently in the literalness of the bible that the likud party shut down the Israeli government for several months in 1994 because simon peres said he did not like things that king david had done.
the NY Times article on december26, 1994 page 6 column relates that a no confidence vote was taken after foreign minister shimon peres, during parliamentary debate said he disapproved of some of the things King David had done, such as the conquest and occupation of neighboring lands and
“his selection of a married woman whose husband he sent to his death”. this refers to david sending bathsheba’s husband,uriah the Hittite to the front lines of battle where he was likely to be killed so david could marry Bathsheba.

The likud look for answers from kings dead 3000 years ago, to decide how to interact with modern reality.
King david was such a tyrant, god did not allow david to rebuild the temple

But in their world david is the model politically, for Israel in the 21 century.

And now netayahu intends to conquer the middle east under the likud kabbalic agencies.

He is the one most responsible for the rhetoric that lead to rabin’s assassination

the point being clear that ancient"myths " are driving contemporary political action in 2016

so you are factually incorrect to say the stories of the bible can't be taken literally. or you have some special faculty to pick and choose which stories are true and which are false.
I tend to reject the stories that Yahweh is a creator god, based on the archeological evidence uncovered in1976

I also think the late archeologist yageal yadin would have argued with you on your "assertion" that the bible can not be looked at literally.

rahu

Last edited by rahu; 04-17-2016 at 11:45 PM.
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