Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #501  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:12 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

So Traditional astrology and Modern astrology
have planets and planetary meanings in common
because they are both forms of astrology.
traditional and modernist astrology have planets and planetary meanings in common
because traditional astrology predates modernist astrology
and modernist astrology chose to keep SOME
but NOT ALL
of the original traditional astrology planetary meanings
modernist astrology is a form of astrology that is based
on the original meanings of traditional astrology

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #502  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:27 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

But Traditional astrology also has many terms
that Modern astrology does not:
terms, face, almuten, etc.
that's because traditional astrology predates modernist astrology
and some, but not all modernist astrologers
chose to discard the use of terms, faces, almutens and so on
HOWEVER
many modernist astrologers who use the outers use terms, faces, almutens
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #503  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:29 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

And Modern astrology uses planets that Traditional astrology does not:
Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.
traditional astrological techniques are independent of the outers
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #504  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:32 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

And some modern astrologers do things traditionalists don't do at all
such as using dials, ignoring the planetary houses
graphing the planets onto a map, etc.
So they are both DIFFERENT types of astrology
and neither one is "built on" the other.
traditional astrology historically predates modernist
and because many modernist astrologers do use traditional terminology
clearly, modernist is based on traditional
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #505  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:36 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

This is because they have DIFFERENT purposes.
The purpose of Traditional astrology is to understand what to do
at the few times in your life when you get to choose
what your fated path you will take.
Traditional astrology supports the client
with making informed choices
based on their lot in life
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

As you mentioned, election astrology is an example of that.
Similarly, horary astrology.
both modernist and traditional astrologers use electional/horary
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #506  
Unread 08-07-2019, 12:46 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

The purpose of Modern astrology is
to give you the opportunity to make choices at ANY time in your life.
Instead of waiting for the "right" moment,
modern astrology gives you a look at what energies are going around you right now
that you can USE to get to where you, deep down, really want to get to.
tradtional astrology works WITH current celestial body placements
to indicate "optimum" moments to act
which are discussed with the client
traditional astrology finds "best option" moments
and has no "right moments"
and
the individual client has choice whether to act or not
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

It's a difference between focusing on fate
and focusing on choice.
About the different astrologies,
Tim
astrology, whether Chinese, Vedic, modernist, sidereal, tropical et al
focuses on choices a client has
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #507  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:16 PM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,694
definition of astrology, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
according to a normal dictionary definition
astrology = the ancient practice of studying the movements
and locations of celestial bodies
in the belief that they influence human behavior
astrologers base their opinions on charts illustrating celestial objects
Jupiter,

That's NOT the dictionary definition of astrology. Here is A dictionary definitiion of astrology:
Quote:
the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.
Notice there is NO mention of "ancient". As long as you are studying the (apparent) movement of the stars and planets and how they relate to people, you are doing astrology. So you START with the stars and planets in doing astrology (just like you START with having four wheels when describing a car). After THAT you can go pretty much wherever you want. Some astrologers today are creating their OWN dignities, falls, and exaltations; some are only using planetary angles and ignore signs, planets, and houses; and others are using maps. This is ENTIRELY different from the Traditional method of looking at stars and planets. The ONLY thing they have in common is...stars and planets. After that, the sky's the limit!

Part of the reason that Traditional and Modern astrologers get in heated discussion is Traditionalists often refuse to recognize that, while Traditional and Modern astrology share ASTROLOGY, they are different TYPES of astrology used for different purposes. As has been stated, their different purposes have to do with the fate vs. free will balance.

About the two different types of astrology,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #508  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:30 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: definition of astrology, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post


Jupiter,
That's NOT the dictionary definition of astrology. Here is A dictionary definitiion of astrology:
Quote:
the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.
Notice there is NO mention of "ancient".
There may be multiple dictionary definitions of astrology
consulting Wikipedia
we find referrences to ancient origins of astrology

'......Among Indo-European peoples
astrology has been dated to the 3rd millennium BC,
interpreting celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.
Until 17th century astrology was a scholarly tradition
and it helped drive the development of astronomy.
Astrology was commonly accepted in political and cultural circles
and some of its concepts were used in other traditional studies,
such as alchemy, meteorology and medicine.
By the end of the 17th century astrology lost its academic standing
and became regarded as a pseudoscience.....'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #509  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:35 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: definition of astrology, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Jupiter,

Part of the reason that Traditional and Modern astrologers
get in heated discussion
is Traditionalists often refuse to recognize that,
while Traditional and Modern astrology share ASTROLOGY,
they are different TYPES of astrology
used for different purposes.
As has been stated, their different purposes
have to do with the fate vs. free will balance.
About the two different types of astrology,
Tim
both modernist and traditional astrologers acknowledge the existence of fate
as previously mentioned
traditional astrologers support clients to advise on
making choices based on the location of celestial bodies
apparently modernist astrologers do similarly
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #510  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:42 PM
Opal's Avatar
Opal Opal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: x marks the spot
Posts: 819
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

After reading this from both of you, I guess my Libra Sun and Mercury are tingling with the thought of why do we have to be labeled? I use all material that is available to me for my astrological studies.......my free will doesn’t want to be limited........gnosis is from anywhere you receive it from
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Opal For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (08-07-2019)
  #511  
Unread 08-07-2019, 02:00 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


After reading this from both of you, I guess my Libra Sun and Mercury are tingling
with the thought of why do we have to be labeled?
I use all material that is available to me for my astrological studies
.......my free will doesn’t want to be limited
........gnosis is from anywhere you receive it from
everyone chooses their own path
and so
for those who prefer a label

we have a traditional astrology board at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...splay.php?f=92
as well as
a Modernist astrology board at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...splay.php?f=95
and multiple General astrology boards
so we may all exercise our free will
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #512  
Unread 08-07-2019, 05:13 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,045
Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Quoting lostinstars over several points:


As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.

Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.

Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works there is the idea of "free will": A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.

In all discussions of "fate" there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will" (whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality. The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life. The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).
I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized. That is not the case. Why would we need astrology then? Determinists would probably argue that no one is omniscient, but everything that happens has been pre-determined.

I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary. I believe JupiterAsc had a post highlighting the hierarchy of different charts somewhere on this forum.

You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree.

I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person and then transits, progressions, profection years, solar returns, lunar returns, the 5 levels of Vimshottari etc. etc. The list can go on. These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame. HOWEVER, who has time for that really?

Astrologers are unable at a practical level to correlate the heavens with minute human experiences given certain constraints like time and personal interest. I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.
Reply With Quote
  #513  
Unread 08-07-2019, 08:00 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary. I believe JupiterAsc had a post highlighting the hierarchy of different charts somewhere on this forum.
Some traditional astrologers would say heavens are reflective of the events on the planet but it is partial truth heavens are not just reflective but also cause or influence events on earth. That is my opinion and it is seen in action so it must be true. Every one experiences seasons and we know when spring turns into summer, earth nor sun is reflective of the seasons but the motion of earth around Sun is causing the seasons.

What stops people from accepting that the planetary motions can cause events just like seasons on earth? I don't know.
__________________
Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
Reply With Quote
  #514  
Unread 08-07-2019, 08:25 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post


I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized. That is not the case. Why would we need astrology then? Determinists would probably argue that no one is omniscient, but everything that happens has been pre-determined.

I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary.


I believe JupiterAsc had a post


highlighting the hierarchy of different charts


somewhere on this forum.
Traditional Astrology is hierarchical
Mundane astrology astrological prediction has the following hierarchy of charts
as an example for the location of New York

starting with:


Grand Conjunction 1702

21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"


Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


Great Malefic 1976
12 May 1976
9:51:13 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


.................................................. .................................................. ...........
HOWEVER

this chart....


Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


....is now the operating Malefic Chart until....


Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


becomes operative

and also


Great Mutation (Air) & Great Conjunction 2020
21 Dec 2020
1:24:22 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


.................................................. .................................................. .....

MEANWHILE

Great Conjunction 2000

28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2019 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2014
Federal Hall, New York


....Insert Your Natal Chart and/or 'Event Chart' Here.....

That is the hierarchy of charts in Mundane Astrology


Note:

Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and
for maximum accuracy
use the "foundation point"

eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti

Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo

Spain = Toledo, not Madrid

and so on



Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post


You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree.

I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person and then transits, progressions, profection years, solar returns, lunar returns, the 5 levels of Vimshottari etc. etc. The list can go on. These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame. HOWEVER, who has time for that really?

Astrologers are unable at a practical level to correlate the heavens with minute human experiences given certain constraints like time and personal interest. I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #515  
Unread 08-07-2019, 08:51 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Some traditional astrologers would say heavens are reflective of the events on the planet but it is partial truth heavens are not just reflective but also cause or influence events on earth. That is my opinion and it is seen in action so it must be true. Every one experiences seasons and we know when spring turns into summer, earth nor sun is reflective of the seasons but the motion of earth around Sun is causing the seasons.

What stops people from accepting that the planetary motions can cause events just like seasons on earth? I don't know
.
RESEARCH BY RETIRED MATHEMATICS TEACHER LAWRENCE EDWARDS

'....In 1982 Edwards daily photographed tree buds on a selection of trees
and found that buds expanded and contracted to an approximate fortnightly rhythm.
These periods varied between 13.6 and 14.7 days
but each species of bud kept the same period in their rhythm.
Edwards realised these were astronomical rhythms
and
each period correlated to the Moon's alignment with a planet and the Earth....'


https://www.astro-calendar.com/shtml...edwards2.shtml
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #516  
Unread 08-07-2019, 08:55 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,899
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

LAWRENCE EDWARDS work evidences
correlation of planetary influences on plant life


'....When the Earth, Moon and planet were in a straight line
the buds of the tree where in a more rounded, expanded shape.
When Moon and planet where 90 degrees apart
(as seen from the Earth),
buds took on a more oval, contracted shape, sharp at one end and blunt at the other.
Even in the middle of Winter buds are doing a rhythmic dance
whose tune is called by the planetary movements.
Which planet in particular affected a tree was determined by the tree's planetary "rulership"....'


'....Oak trees are "ruled" by Mars
i.e.
some of its rhythms are determined by Mars rhythms
Elm trees by Mercury,
Cherry by Moon,
Ash by Sun
Beech by Saturn.
Moon 13.67 days from conjunction with Saturn to opposition with Saturn.
The opposition and conjunction aspects
are when the Earth, Moon and Saturn are in a straight line;
this is also when the buds of Beech trees or conifers attain their most rounded shape.....'
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #517  
Unread 08-09-2019, 12:27 AM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,694
determinism, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized...You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree...I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person...These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame...I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.
Based only on what you say at the end, it sounds like you believe in an entirely fated world and choice itself is an illusion. The only reason astrologers haven't been able to pin down what people are doing from moment to moment is because they either don't have the astrological ability or don't have the time to work out the necessary equations.

If EVERYTHING is entirely predetermined then I go back to my previous statement of saying that, with this view of the world, there is no reason to try to do anything. Everything will happen as it's going to happen and you might as well just sit back and let it happen.

As mentioned, this theory that everything is predetermined simply leads to stagnation since there is no reason to try if everything will happen as its meant to be. Following out the logic there is no reason to get out of bed or do anything because "whatever will be will be" and fate will simply force the person to do what is required when it is needed.

However, based on what you said earlier, I think you get at what I was saying. A person is fated to have the chart energies they have. What they DO with those energies is the person free will. Naturally, if they are UNAWARE of those energies, those energies will tend to automatically follow the path of least resistance: stressful aspects will lead to stressful situations, easy aspects will lead to easy situations and they will tend to follow a "fated" path in life. However, if the person knows their astrological chart, they can DECIDE (i.e., use free will) on HOW they want to use their energies. They are still fated to have the energies they have, and so their choices will be limited to using those energies, but they can use those energies in the way that is best for them.

We have the same idea of the chart being fate, where we differ is you say that the chart pattern determines the fate of the person's life (traditional astrology) while I say that the chart pattern determines the different energies a person has to work with in their life (modern astrology).

About the differences,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #518  
Unread 08-09-2019, 06:28 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,045
Re: determinism, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Based only on what you say at the end, it sounds like you believe in an entirely fated world and choice itself is an illusion. The only reason astrologers haven't been able to pin down what people are doing from moment to moment is because they either don't have the astrological ability or don't have the time to work out the necessary equations.

If EVERYTHING is entirely predetermined then I go back to my previous statement of saying that, with this view of the world, there is no reason to try to do anything. Everything will happen as it's going to happen and you might as well just sit back and let it happen.

As mentioned, this theory that everything is predetermined simply leads to stagnation since there is no reason to try if everything will happen as its meant to be. Following out the logic there is no reason to get out of bed or do anything because "whatever will be will be" and fate will simply force the person to do what is required when it is needed.

However, based on what you said earlier, I think you get at what I was saying. A person is fated to have the chart energies they have. What they DO with those energies is the person free will. Naturally, if they are UNAWARE of those energies, those energies will tend to automatically follow the path of least resistance: stressful aspects will lead to stressful situations, easy aspects will lead to easy situations and they will tend to follow a "fated" path in life. However, if the person knows their astrological chart, they can DECIDE (i.e., use free will) on HOW they want to use their energies. They are still fated to have the energies they have, and so their choices will be limited to using those energies, but they can use those energies in the way that is best for them.

We have the same idea of the chart being fate, where we differ is you say that the chart pattern determines the fate of the person's life (traditional astrology) while I say that the chart pattern determines the different energies a person has to work with in their life (modern astrology).

About the differences,

Tim
I disagree. I do believe in an entirely fated/deterministic viewpoint and I don't think there's no point in changing or trying. I believe fate makes you try and change and makes you desire new things for yourself. Fate does not really allow for one to sit back and do nothing. Many factors will force you to act. Fate is not a stagnant concept. One's chart energies for instance can be modified and nuanced by progressions and transits. It isn't so simple as one should sit back. That isn't how fate operates.

I simply do not believe in free will. I believe what we desire, what we aim for, what we find beautiful or aesthetically pleasing is all hard wired into our charts and progressions, etc.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to moonkat235 For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (08-09-2019)
  #519  
Unread 08-09-2019, 01:24 PM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,694
fate, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
...I do believe in an entirely fated/deterministic viewpoint and I don't think there's no point in changing or trying...Fate does not really allow for one to sit back and do nothing. Many factors will force you to act. Fate is not a stagnant concept. One's chart energies for instance can be modified and nuanced by progressions and transits. It isn't so simple as one should sit back. That isn't how fate operates.
moonkat,

I think we're closer on this than you think. What you are calling "fate" I'm calling "free will". I'm defining "fate" as something unchangeable and inevitable while you define fate as something that CAN be changed. I'm separating the "unchanging" part of things and calling it "fate" from the "changeable" part of things and calling that "free will". So when you modify and nuance things in your life THAT is using your "free will".

Explaining,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #520  
Unread 08-09-2019, 04:17 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,045
Re: fate, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
moonkat,

I think we're closer on this than you think. What you are calling "fate" I'm calling "free will". I'm defining "fate" as something unchangeable and inevitable while you define fate as something that CAN be changed. I'm separating the "unchanging" part of things and calling it "fate" from the "changeable" part of things and calling that "free will". So when you modify and nuance things in your life THAT is using your "free will".

Explaining,

Tim
Hi wilsontc,

Where I differ is the cause I think. I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion. In reality, one's will is pre-determined in the first place and the trajectory of one's life and the changes enacted have been drawn out.

The concept that we can react or change to stimuli based on our own power is not what I believe. It's okay that you believe we have free will, the power to enact our own changes. I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.
Reply With Quote
  #521  
Unread 08-10-2019, 01:28 PM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,694
personal responsibility, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion...I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.
moonkat,

I have been thinking about this for awhile and now I understand that you see ALL life as "fated" but that we have the ILLUSION that some of that "fate" is "free will": we do things THINKING we have free will but actually even those choices we make are all fated.

It occurs to me that this idea completely throws out the idea of personal responsibility and the basis of Western Civilization. IF we have NO responsibility for what we do then it is useless to attempt to punish or discipline people who do bad behavior. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, etc. were simply following their fate. Using the theory of "everything is fated" there is NO reason to punish these people since they were all fated to do what they did and could do NOTHING else. Disciplining and punishing are meant to change people's behavior and create consequences for people doing things that hurt society. If people have no free will then there is NO changing people's behavior (that's all just an illusion) and attempting to do so is just wasted effort.

It's understandable you want people to PRETEND there is free will since, if they live life as it ACTUALLY is (according to your view), they have no personal responsibility and chaos reigns in its place.

About the consequences,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #522  
Unread 08-10-2019, 01:45 PM
ynnest ynnest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,246
Re: fate, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Hi wilsontc,

Where I differ is the cause I think. I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion. In reality, one's will is pre-determined in the first place and the trajectory of one's life and the changes enacted have been drawn out.

The concept that we can react or change to stimuli based on our own power is not what I believe. It's okay that you believe we have free will, the power to enact our own changes. I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.

From my point of view you are choosing with your free will choice to not believe in free will choice as free will choice starts from my perspective with the intent/thought/belief which then lays the foundation for action that is supported.

If there is something that one could label as fate then that from my perspective would have been created by free will choice in the first place/beginning and can therefore be changed with free will choice if the person chooses to not buy into the concept of fate with their free will choice.
It is a free will choice to believe in fate and a free will choice to believe in free will which puts people in different realities of power depending on if they lend their power away or if they take ownership of that power from my perspective.

Y

Last edited by ynnest; 08-10-2019 at 01:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #523  
Unread 08-10-2019, 03:56 PM
Opal's Avatar
Opal Opal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: x marks the spot
Posts: 819
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I agree with Moonkat on a lot of points. If we have free will, would we all not live perfect little lives of our choosing? Fated, we don’t control what happens. We don’t choose to be poor, we choose to be successful. Circumstances or fate, are not our choosing. We don’t choose to be murdered, it happens without our free will. Most would not choose to be incarcerated in jail or insane asylums or prisoner of war camps. So fate would have to be stronger than free will.
Reply With Quote
  #524  
Unread 08-10-2019, 04:14 PM
ynnest ynnest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,246
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I believe some people believe in fate to get away from choices that their souls may have made a long time ago that make it seems that they are being caused by a lot of troubles when in reality they themselves has caused a lot of harm to themselves and others by their free will choices and it is coming back to them. Calling this fate is in my view to move away from taking responsibility and blocking their ways of healing.

They might call this fate, but I call it universal karma.

Y
Reply With Quote
  #525  
Unread 08-10-2019, 04:58 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,045
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
moonkat,

I have been thinking about this for awhile and now I understand that you see ALL life as "fated" but that we have the ILLUSION that some of that "fate" is "free will": we do things THINKING we have free will but actually even those choices we make are all fated.

It occurs to me that this idea completely throws out the idea of personal responsibility and the basis of Western Civilization. IF we have NO responsibility for what we do then it is useless to attempt to punish or discipline people who do bad behavior. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, etc. were simply following their fate. Using the theory of "everything is fated" there is NO reason to punish these people since they were all fated to do what they did and could do NOTHING else. Disciplining and punishing are meant to change people's behavior and create consequences for people doing things that hurt society. If people have no free will then there is NO changing people's behavior (that's all just an illusion) and attempting to do so is just wasted effort.

It's understandable you want people to PRETEND there is free will since, if they live life as it ACTUALLY is (according to your view), they have no personal responsibility and chaos reigns in its place.

About the consequences,

Tim
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynnest View Post
I believe some people believe in fate to get away from choices that their souls may have made a long time ago that make it seems that they are being caused by a lot of troubles when in reality they themselves has caused a lot of harm to themselves and others by their free will choices and it is coming back to them. Calling this fate is in my view to move away from taking responsibility and blocking their ways of healing.

They might call this fate, but I call it universal karma.

Y
I'm not sure how to explain. I think maybe in a concept as large and universal as fate, that we can't simply view it in such personal humanistic terms as human morality. It's not about culpability. I doubt fate personified really cares about who's to blame. I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc.

I said the illusion of free will is helpful on a practical level and that is true. One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. That way you play into fate's hands willingly. People who claim fate is responsible for their lives are not incorrect, but that's just such a reductionist perspective on what is actually happening that I think it's largely unhelpful in informing their daily lives.

In all honesty, the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
astrology, comparison, fate, free, modern, traditional

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.