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  #476  
Unread 08-03-2019, 11:28 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


I heard about the book Christ Conspiracy by the same author. To me it does not matter if Christianity is real or made up religion but the angels from Judaism seem very real and their magic works, so is the Solomonic magic. I think we will end up wasting our time to find the roots of all knowledge and magic while we can use them to improve our lives.

It is like the ancient gods do not care which religion humans associate them with as long they are given respect.

What is your opinion?
one has freewill to choose to benefit greatly
as a consequence of
reading, studying and vigilantly practicing traditional astrological techniques
or alternatively
one has freewill to not bother to even read traditional astrology
let alone practice
and instead carp at, constantly questioning the validity of its roots
- everyone has personal choice
and their own path


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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-03-2019 at 11:38 AM.
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  #477  
Unread 08-03-2019, 01:50 PM
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Get back to fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

All,

Please get back to the subject fate vs. free will in traditional astrology vs. modern astrology. If you have finished with that topic, start a new thread. If you want to talk about non-astrological things, do so in the Chat Forum. I will continue to delete off-topic, non-astrological posts from this thread.

Back to astrology,

Tim
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  #478  
Unread 08-03-2019, 07:01 PM
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how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quoting lostinstars over several points:
Quote:
An astrologer’s job is to only read what the chart says but not tell a native what s/he should do...

fate is providence which ensures our lives play out exactly as planned by providence. Free will is restricted to minor things that are in no way contributing to your fate...

fate has the power to correct the course in an individual's life and also the world at large. Yes journey may be left to an individual but the destination will be the same.
As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.

Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.

Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works there is the idea of "free will": A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.

In all discussions of "fate" there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will" (whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality. The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life. The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).

Traditionalists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated and only very FEW things have to do with "free will". The DESTINATION is a constant, but the JOURNEY can vary. The astrologer's job is to simply point out the DESTINATION and leave it up to people to decide which JOURNEY they take to get there.

Modernists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated UNLESS THEY BECOME AWARE of themselves and their tendencies. Then the person can ADJUST themselves so their life better aligns with who they are inwardly. In this case, with the help of an astrologer or leaning astrology on their own, the JOURNEY is a constant, but how the person USES the journey can change the person's DESTINATION. Modern astrologers believe you are fated to have the chart you have, but if you are AWARE of that chart you can USE it to get to a place that best fits who YOU are.

Some modern astrologers get caught up in terminology and insist on calling modern astrology "psychological" as a way to distinguish it from traditional astrology (which emphasizes fate over free will). But this distinction can confuse people since the point is NOT about the "psychology" (which is a separate field) but about the CHOICE people make on what to DO with their chart. For this reason, the phrase "choice-centered astrology" has become more common to replace the confusing "psychological" astrology term.

However, since Modernists take the OPPOSITE approach to astrology than Traditionalists do there is a LOT of fighting between the two about how little or how much fate affects a person vs. how much or how little free will affects a person. The attraction of Traditional astrology is it gives certainty, since the goal is to predict the destination. The challenge of modern astrology is it gives UNcertainty since the destination depends on where the person decides to go and what they do to get there.

This suggests that fate is like inertia: do nothing to change your life and your destination is fated. The more KNOWLEDGE you have of your situation (through astrology or some other means) the more ability you have to use free will to affect the OUTCOME of your life.

Traditional astrology was most popular at a time when people's lives WERE fated because no one could do anything to change the outcome of their life: kings would stay kings and peasants would stay peasants. Kings were born into power and didn't want to give it to anyone not in their family and peasants were too busy trying to stay alive to be concerned with learning things. Later, when knowledge became easier to come by, astrology began to change its purpose, moving from telling people about their unchanging, fated life to telling people about the things they MIGHT do.

For people who like certainty in their lives, this new, changeable method of astrology is disturbing. Instead of supplying ONE answer for the person, choice-centered astrology can offer MANY answers and possibilities. The astrologer in modern astrology works MUCH closer with the client, since the role of the astrologer is to help the person explore these possibilities to see which answer best works for them. This choice-centered approach also turns the control of interpreting the chart from the astrologer over to the person who is constantly involved in the process to see which possibilities "work" for them.

For those who like certainty in their life, the "fated" approach of Traditional astrology will likely be more attractive. For those who are open to possibilities and want to explore them "free will"/"choice-centered" Modern astrology will tend to be more appealing.

About the differences,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 08-03-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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  #479  
Unread 08-03-2019, 08:52 PM
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Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Quoting lostinstars over several points:

As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.

Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.
normal dictionary definition of fate = the development of events
outside a person's control
the course of someone's life
or the outcome of a situation for someone
or something seen as outside their control.
the inescapable EVENTUAL death of everyone.
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  #480  
Unread 08-04-2019, 10:51 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works
there is the idea of "free will":
A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.
In all discussions of "fate"
there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will"
(whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality.
The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life.
The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).
how much choice aka "freewill" a person has
is often arguably determined by PREVIOUS CHOICES that person made
for example
a homeless person has clearly made poor choices in the past
and as a consequence
a homeless person usually has no available funds
with which to consult astrologers
even if that homeless person wanted to
and so
for that homeless person, "freewill" is questionable
regarding obtaining advice from any astrologers

BUT

a person in regular employment
MAY have sufficient funds
with which to consult multiple astrologers
if they so chose to
NEVERTHELESS
if a person in regular employment
has a family to support
then there may be insufficient available funds
with which to consult astrologers

and so
ones "freewill" to consult astrologers
seems dependent on having sufficient funds to do so

and even if
there are free online forums
few, if any working astrologers have time
to provide for free on a daily basis complete readings of multiple natal charts
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  #481  
Unread 08-04-2019, 01:32 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post


Traditionalists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated and only very FEW things have to do with "free will". The DESTINATION is a constant, but the JOURNEY can vary. The astrologer's job is to simply point out the DESTINATION and leave it up to people to decide which JOURNEY they take to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Traditionalistic astrologer Christopher Warnock's stated attitude is, in so many words, that Fate conquers all, so let us all surrender to Fate. And, that to do otherwise is both futile and egocentric, and leads to unhappiness and dissatisfaction with life.
Modernists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated UNLESS THEY BECOME AWARE of themselves and their tendencies. Then the person can ADJUST themselves so their life better aligns with who they are inwardly. In this case, with the help of an astrologer or leaning astrology on their own, the JOURNEY is a constant, but how the person USES the journey can change the person's DESTINATION. Modern astrologers believe you are fated to have the chart you have, but if you are AWARE of that chart you can USE it to get to a place that best fits who YOU are.

Some modern astrologers get caught up in terminology and insist on calling modern astrology "psychological" as a way to distinguish it from traditional astrology (which emphasizes fate over free will). But this distinction can confuse people since the point is NOT about the "psychology" (which is a separate field) but about the CHOICE people make on what to DO with their chart. For this reason, the phrase "choice-centered astrology" has become more common to replace the confusing "psychological" astrology term.
Traditional astrologers work WITH clients
supporting their client with making wiser choices in life

within the limits of "freewill"
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

However, since Modernists take the OPPOSITE approach to astrology than Traditionalists do there is a LOT of fighting between the two about how little or how much fate affects a person vs. how much or how little free will affects a person. The attraction of Traditional astrology is it gives certainty, since the goal is to predict the destination. The challenge of modern astrology is it gives UNcertainty since the destination depends on where the person decides to go and what they do to get there.
Traditional astrology acknowledges that along the way
towards INEVITABLE EVENTUAL FATE of death
SOME events that occur
are most definitely beyond the individual control of an individual
therefore are considered "fated"
because
those events are beyond the individual control of the native
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  #482  
Unread 08-04-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

This suggests that fate is like inertia: do nothing to change your life and your destination is fated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

"Free-will" doesn't include the precept

that one can break all the rules with impunity.
Where did anyone get that idea?
Actions have consequences, whether they result from a free-will choice,
or are not under our own control.
The more KNOWLEDGE you have of your situation (through astrology or some other means)
the more ability you have to use free will to affect the OUTCOME of your life.
and so
for example

traditional astrology is frequently used for deciding on fortuitous times to act
best time to buy a new home
travel to another country
have medical treatment
and so on
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  #483  
Unread 08-04-2019, 02:41 PM
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the ability to "act" denies that something is "fated", to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
and so
for example

traditional astrology is frequently used for deciding on fortuitous times to act
best time to buy a new home
travel to another country
have medical treatment
and so on
Since you have an ability to "act" (to use "free will") on something then it is NOT "fated" to occur. So Traditional astrology ALLOWS people to use their free will to decide when or not to act. Presumably, by acting at the "right" time then the events MEANT to happen after that action is taken will unfold (then, after that action is taken, everything "fated" to occur will happen).

Modern astrology goes FURTHER down the "free will path" than Traditional astrology. Modern astrology says, for the most part, WHATEVER time you are going through you can decide on MANY different choices. An exception on taking action is when Mercury is retrograde: then it's best to wait it out before acting. But OTHERWISE you can take action ANY time PROVIDED you understand the challenges of the moment. This is useful in real life because often you have NO control over when actions occur: home deals can get delayed, travel can get delayed, doctors can postpone their surgical times, and so on. But by understanding the challenges of the moment, you are prepared to TAKE the action that life forces you to take and take it in the way that BEST works for you.

This is the benefit of "choice-centered" astrology: rather than wait for the world to decide when it's the best time for YOU to do things, YOU do things and USE the energy of the world around you to make things turn out as best as they can. Modern astrologers often talk about "energy" because the idea is NOT to wait for the CHART to tell you when to do something (i.e., when the best "fated time" is) but instead to let the person USE the chart (it's "energy") to DO things for themselves in the way that is best for them.

About the differences,

Tim
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  #484  
Unread 08-04-2019, 03:23 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Traditional astrology was most popular
at a time when people's lives WERE fated
because no one could do anything to change the outcome of their life:
kings would stay kings and peasants would stay peasants.
originally "Traditional" astrology was the sole form of astrology
astrologers originally were hired SOLELY BY ROYALTY

and had high status as "court astrologers"
"ordinary people" had no access at all to astrology
even today royals are considered "fated"
because those "born royals must remain royals all their lives"
WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT
kings and queens may ABDICATE
AND
in the past kings and queens abdicated
and may ABDICATE today if they so choose
for example EDWARD VII of England abdicated
so that he could marry divorced lover Wallis Simpson

ironically, today, UKs Prince Charles is not only divorced
but Prince Charles is also married to a divorcee
so
there have been changes in royal circles
the rules have been modified so that descendants of royalty
may choose to not use their "royal title"
however "ex-royals" still have tremendous wealth
fame and status
denied to "ordinary people"
and even if
it is possible for "a commonor" to "marry into a royal family"
a recent excellent example being American Meghan Markle
Prince Charles son Prince Harry has married divorced Meghan Markle
Meghan Markle is now a member of "a royal family"
and her son is seventh in line to the throne of the UK
BUT
only ONE person amongst all seven billion inhabitants of our planet
even had OPPORTUNITY to make the choices
for such an exceptional rise in status
that brings their child in line of succession
to the throne of the UK

FURTHERMORE
Queen Elizabeth in honour of Megan Markle's 38th birthday
is today throwing a special tea party for Meghan and her new family
at Balmoral Castle in Scotland.
Meghan, Prince Harry and baby Archie Harrison
will reportedly have their own wing in the castle.
“The Queen and Prince Philip adore the couple
and, of course, their new great-grandson Archie
and they have invited them to Balmoral for a few days”
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  #485  
Unread 08-04-2019, 03:38 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Kings were born into power
and didn't want to give it to anyone not in their family
and peasants were too busy trying to stay alive
to be concerned with learning things.
Later, when knowledge became easier to come by,
astrology began to change its purpose, moving from telling people about their unchanging,
fated life to telling people about the things they MIGHT do.
to be realistic
even if they are not "royalty"

the richest 1% now owns half the world's wealth
in fact

The wealthiest 1% of the world's population
now owns more than half of the world's wealth
according to a Credit Suisse report on 14 Nov 2017
the top 20% of Americans owned 86% of the country's wealth
and the bottom 80% of the population owned 14%.
and so
the vast majority lack the financial means to pay astrologers

and so
even today astrologers hired solely by the wealthy and the famous
are earning a good living from a select list of clients
such astrologers are not available to the vast majority
Ronald Reagans wife for example consulted astrologers
in contrast
the vast majority rely on easily available astrological "cookbook astrology software"
or free online astrology forums
on which random comments are posted
by those who do not require any astrological qualifications
because modernist western astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"
and anyone may self-style as "an astrologer"
traditional astrology requires far more reading, studying and practice
as there are multiple methods

such as CIRCUMNAMBULATION OF THE BOUNDS
that require detailed knowledge in order to accurately delineate
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  #486  
Unread 08-04-2019, 04:15 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Fate - You broke a bone, got stitches for a cut, bumped into someone from the past

Free will - You chose to take or not take the job, you chose to stay or leave your spouse.

Fate just happens, free will you choose your path.
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  #487  
Unread 08-05-2019, 04:33 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Fate - You broke a bone, got stitches for a cut, bumped into someone from the past

Free will - You chose to take or not take the job, you chose to stay or leave your spouse.

Fate just happens, free will you choose your path.
Fate is your circumstances, free will is what you do with that. That's the modern approach.

Agreeing,

Tim
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Unread 08-05-2019, 04:38 AM
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Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter

Jupiter,

That's exactly it. There is always Traditional astrology for those who have the money to hire an astrologer who understands all the complex Traditional rules. But for the rest of us, there is Modern astrology, a self-evident, easy to learn system that powerfully reveals the opportunities and pitfalls around us, so we can use our energies in the best possible ways. The reason that modern astrology is so prevalent it has become "entertainment" is because it is so simple and powerful. EVEN understanding JUST the sun-sign of someone puts you ahead in understanding them as opposed to someone who knows NO astrology about them. And IF someone makes a LITTLE bit of effort they can quickly be posting VERY helpful statements to total strangers based on nothing more than the astrological chart posted. In this way, modern astrology enables people to deeply help other strangers simply and powerfully.

About the simple powerfulness of it all,

Tim
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  #489  
Unread 08-05-2019, 12:23 PM
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Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Jupiter,
That's exactly it.

There is always Traditional astrology for those who have the money
to hire an astrologer who understands all the complex Traditional rules.
Traditional astrology tried and tested over thousands of years
has powerful methods that bring results
and
there's no need to hire a traditional astrologer
anyone may empower themselves by learning traditional
plenty of easily accessible FREE ONLINE information https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/c...les/beginners/
of course if you are wealthy
you may choose to hire an astrologer
HOWEVER
wealthy, famous people do not necessarily hire traditional astrologers

famous modernist astrologers are often hired by the wealthy and famous
modernist astrologers do not provide complete free chart readings
modernist astrologers provide chart readings in exchange for money
as is clear from our Advertising Board

clearly
astrologers, whether traditional or modernist, must pay their bills

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

But for the rest of us, there is Modern astrology, a self-evident, easy to learn system
that powerfully reveals the opportunities and pitfalls around us, so we can use our energies in the best possible ways.
The reason that modern astrology is so prevalent it has become "entertainment"
is because it is so simple and powerful.
"modern popular" astrology is firmly based on
the powerful and simple methods of traditional astrology
which are easily learned
with very little effort
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

EVEN understanding JUST the sun-sign of someone
puts you ahead in understanding them
as opposed to someone who knows NO astrology about them.
And IF someone makes a LITTLE bit of effort
they can quickly be posting VERY helpful statements
to total strangers based on nothing more than the astrological chart posted.
In this way, modern astrology enables people
to deeply help other strangers simply and powerfully.
About the simple powerfulness of it all,

Tim
traditionally, the "sun-sign" of a person is skimming the surface
and popular astrology seems content with that apparently
however IF someone makes not much effort
to read FREE online traditional information
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/c...les/beginners/
then that person is able to offer
very helpful statements to total strangers
using traditional methods
an excellent example
is our HORARY board
which offers brilliant advice to total strangers
HORARY cannot function without using traditional methods
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Unread 08-05-2019, 12:39 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

For people who like certainty in their lives,
this new, changeable method of astrology is disturbing.
Everyone "likes basic certainty in life"

such as ability to pay bills
put food on the table, for themselves or their family
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Instead of supplying ONE answer for the person, choice-centered astrology
can offer MANY answers and possibilities.
using traditional methods there is not SOLELY ONE answer for the person

modernist choice-centered is based on traditional
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

The astrologer in modern astrology works MUCH closer with the client,
since the role of the astrologer is to help the person explore these possibilities
to see which answer best works for them.
traditional astrology explores the various possibilities with clients
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

This choice-centered approach
also turns the control of interpreting the chart from the astrologer
over to the person
you said that the client interprets the chart for themselves
if that is so then
there is no need for modernist astrologers to interpret for the client
and
in fact
any person may use traditional methods to interpret their chart for themselves
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

who is constantly involved in the process to see which possibilities "work" for them.
traditional astrologers involve their clients in the process
discussing various "working possibilites"
obviously in life some choices are possible
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  #491  
Unread 08-06-2019, 06:25 AM
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Re: the ability to "act" denies that something is "fated", to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Since you have an ability to "act" (to use "free will") on something then it is NOT "fated" to occur. So Traditional astrology ALLOWS people to use their free will to decide when or not to act. Presumably, by acting at the "right" time then the events MEANT to happen after that action is taken will unfold (then, after that action is taken, everything "fated" to occur will happen).

But none of us choose to have accidents. They are fated. There is no free will in some things. They are separate entities. How we react is free will.....no?

Modern astrology goes FURTHER down the "free will path" than Traditional astrology. Modern astrology says, for the most part, WHATEVER time you are going through you can decide on MANY different choices. An exception on taking action is when Mercury is retrograde: then it's best to wait it out before acting. But OTHERWISE you can take action ANY time PROVIDED you understand the challenges of the moment. This is useful in real life because often you have NO control over when actions occur: home deals can get delayed, travel can get delayed, doctors can postpone their surgical times, and so on. But by understanding the challenges of the moment, you are prepared to TAKE the action that life forces you to take and take it in the way that BEST works for you.

This is the benefit of "choice-centered" astrology: rather than wait for the world to decide when it's the best time for YOU to do things, YOU do things and USE the energy of the world around you to make things turn out as best as they can. Modern astrologers often talk about "energy" because the idea is NOT to wait for the CHART to tell you when to do something (i.e., when the best "fated time" is) but instead to let the person USE the chart (it's "energy") to DO things for themselves in the way that is best for them.

The above paragraph......this would be what most people do, as they are unaware of the planets, stars and their effects on themselves........

Would you agree or disagree with the above statement?


About the differences,

Tim
It's making me type something here to submit reply......
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  #492  
Unread 08-06-2019, 01:26 PM
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yes, to Opal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
But none of us choose to have accidents. They are fated. There is no free will in some things. They are separate entities. How we react is free will...

The above paragraph......this would be what most people do, as they are unaware of the planets, stars and their effects on themselves........

Would you agree or disagree with the above statement?
Opal,

The first statement about "free will" was free will in the choice of CHOOSING a time to do something. As you say correctly, if we aren't AWARE of something we can't CHOOSE it. So we can't CHOOSE whether or not to have an accident, an accident happens because we were NOT aware of something. Yes, I would consider accidents "fated" because there is NO way to stop them, since stopping them would require us to be more aware of the world than we are. But what to do AFTER the accident is a CHOICE and there free will comes in.

Yes, most people are NOT aware of their patterns and tendencies so they tend to act in a "fated" way, going down the easiest paths, even if those paths don't help them grow and develop. That's where modern astrology comes in to help them grow and develop and make them aware of the "big picture".

Agreeing,

Tim
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  #493  
Unread 08-06-2019, 01:36 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Agree with what Opal just wrote. Events are fated, how we respond/react is our free will. I think the major game changers in our lives (significant others, jobs, children, illness etc.) are not something we can "control" or bring about with free will (i.e. you can give the best interview of your life but you may not get the job), but how we conduct ourselves in those circumstances is. And certainly you can go down the rabbit hole of making the argument that you use free will to position yourself - i.e. you apply for a certain job or you start online dating in order to meet someone, but I'm mostly focusing on outcomes here to simplify the point because even the timing of opportunities entering our lives I believe is really not in our control.

And so this brings me back to astrology, in reference to which I agree with what Greybeard wrote previously in this thread:
"If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate."

Does this make me a traditionalist?

Last edited by AtlanticPacific; 08-06-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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  #494  
Unread 08-06-2019, 04:53 PM
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Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Jupiter,

That's exactly it. There is always Traditional astrology for those who have the money to hire an astrologer who understands all the complex Traditional rules. But for the rest of us, there is Modern astrology, a self-evident, easy to learn system that powerfully reveals the opportunities and pitfalls around us, so we can use our energies in the best possible ways. The reason that modern astrology is so prevalent it has become "entertainment" is because it is so simple and powerful. EVEN understanding JUST the sun-sign of someone puts you ahead in understanding them as opposed to someone who knows NO astrology about them. And IF someone makes a LITTLE bit of effort they can quickly be posting VERY helpful statements to total strangers based on nothing more than the astrological chart posted. In this way, modern astrology enables people to deeply help other strangers simply and powerfully.

About the simple powerfulness of it all,

Tim

Traditional astrologers are expensive not because it is complex but it is not accessible so easily, people have to struggle to get an understanding and become good at it to even consider doing readings. Modern astrologers just need to read few books and can start doing readings. I didn't see any proponent of modern astrologers here answering my question on the need for natal chart when the focus is on transformation of psyche, transformation of consciousness, learning from experiences etc.

Event Robert Hand gives importance to psychology and consciousness though he is a great historian and instrumental in explaining medieval concepts. It is not surprising considering he became famous for his early modern astrology books, I wonder if he started with traditional astrology instead of modern would he still stay the same things?
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  #495  
Unread 08-06-2019, 05:09 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlanticPacific View Post

Agree with what Opal just wrote. Events are fated, how we respond/react is our free will. I think the major game changers in our lives (significant others, jobs, children, illness etc.) are not something we can "control" or bring about with free will (i.e. you can give the best interview of your life but you may not get the job), but how we conduct ourselves in those circumstances is. And certainly you can go down the rabbit hole of making the argument that you use free will to position yourself - i.e. you apply for a certain job or you start online dating in order to meet someone, but I'm mostly focusing on outcomes here to simplify the point because even the timing of opportunities entering our lives I believe is really not in our control.

And so this brings me back to astrology, in reference to which I agree with what Greybeard wrote previously in this thread:
"If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate."

Does this make me a traditionalist?
modernist astrologers frequently disagree
so
that's dependent on whether any modernist astrologers think "all is fated"

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate.

We are obligated to make choices daily, and these choices have the appearance of being made freely. It is an illusion. If we look carefully at "prior causes", we find a string which disappears into unconscious regions: the Labyrinth of Minos.

What is not conscious appears as fate.

If we wish to be free of fate, we must become fully conscious. Narrow is the way and strait the gate, and few there be that find it.

So, most of us live lives bound by fate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


If my life is characterized by "free will", but that free will is Unconscious, as you say,

Well...that's quite a stretch.
The will is an instrument of consciousness. It comes of Desire, and shows inclination, volition, determination.... Will is absent in states of unconsciousness simply because the will is a conscious faculty.

I believe (a belief, not necessarily true) that I create my own destiny, or fate. But most of our life (I am speaking of most of us, not the fully conscious few) is controlled and directed by unconscious powers.

Thus, although we ourselves create our lives, we do so unconsciously and therefore beyond the purview of will.

Consider our limitations.
I am human. I am not a fig tree, a mosquito or frog. I can only perceive the world through human eyes.

I am white, I am male, I am old. To the best of my knowledge I did not choose these things. Each and all have much to say about my life, my destiny.

Why have I lived the past 77 years just as my horoscope suggests? Because I willed it so? All along the path of life, and frequently, we are offered opportunities to make choices that, if taken, would dramatically change our fate. But we do not take those opportunities. We make the choices that propel us along in our prescribed fate.

Why?

Please explain how astrology can work given effective free will. (It can't, but give it a go.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


I got married, was hospitalized, became a father and many other things years before astrology entered my life...all events marked by the astrological clock.
Anyway, you are welcome to your thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


Why is it that among all things ever created we alone possess free will?
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  #496  
Unread 08-06-2019, 05:56 PM
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Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Traditional astrologers are expensive not because it is complex
but it is not accessible so easily, people have to struggle to get an understanding
and become good at it to even consider doing readings.
Modern astrologers just need to read few books
and can start doing readings.
in fact on our forum, complete beginners may immediately interpret charts
without reading any books at all
and its legal
simply because western modernist astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"
so there is no necessity to have even read/studied longer than five minutes
the theory for our forum is
that beginners learn by receiving feedback on their chart interpretation
however
most "Read My Chart" posters just want a reading
and mostly do not provide feedback
which is understandable because all comments on our forum
are public and easily accessed on google et al
members often request private readings by pm
I've had multiple requests
but my response is
any comment I make is public - so then more people benefit
from the information offered
also if one spends all ones time answering pms with private readings
then there's no time to comment on the open forum

also there are "cookbook interpretations" from astrological software
which some print out and mail to clients
after buying the inexpensive right to do so from the software writer
these computer printouts provide identical "readings"
to anyone born the same day
and are another reason many consider "astrology" fairground entertainment

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

I didn't see any proponent of modern astrologers here answering my question on the need for natal chart when the focus is on transformation of psyche, transformation of consciousness, learning from experiences etc.

Even Robert Hand gives importance to psychology and consciousness though he is a great historian and instrumental in explaining medieval concepts. It is not surprising considering he became famous for his early modern astrology books, I wonder if he started with traditional astrology instead of modern would he still stay the same things?
During an episode of THE ASTROLOGY PODCAST
with Chris Brennan
Robert Hand said as follows:


'......I always have been interested in traditional astrology
but the material wasn’t available
Not even Lilly.
Then in the ‘80s Robert Zoller talked for a little group at early meetings
of New York chapter of NCGR.
I was struck that he would actually learn Latin
in order to read the stuff in the original.
I won’t say I ever really did conventional modern astrology.
I was more into cosmobiology Ebertin’s School
which interestingly enough is rather like traditional astrology...'


Robert Hand also says that “Planets In Transit”
was written as a text for a computer program in the 70's
which in somewhat modified form
is now available for Astrodienst aka astro.com.

'.....I have to say that some of the delineations have been modified beyond recognition but it is basically my work.....'Robert Hand

'....I also have to say that the psychological interpretation
was required partly by the fact these were computer program databases
and external events require taking off a lot of other things into consideration
besides the transit itself.
If you are just going to be talking about the transit
then you really are primarily stuck with the personality
or psychologically oriented interpretation....' Robert Hand
the podcast is at http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/...nal-astrology/
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  #497  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:12 AM
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Traditional astrology and Modern astrology are both astrology, to Jupiter

Jupiter,

Modern astrology and Traditional astrology are both forms of astrology. Just as there are different kinds of cars you can buy, so there are different forms of astrology you can use. And just as cars all have in common that they have 4 wheels, a body, and a way to propel themselves, so astrologers all have in common that they use the planets or other objects in the sky and come to certain conclusions based on the positions of the stars. So Traditional astrology and Modern astrology have planets and planetary meanings in common because they are both forms of astrology. But Traditional astrology also has many terms that Modern astrology does not: terms, face, almuten, etc. And Modern astrology uses planets that Traditional astrology does not: Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. And some modern astrologers do things traditionalists don't do at all, such as using dials, ignoring the planetary houses, graphing the planets onto a map, etc. So they are both DIFFERENT types of astrology and neither one is "built on" the other.

This is because they have DIFFERENT purposes. The purpose of Traditional astrology is to understand what to do at the few times in your life when you get to choose what your fated path you will take. As you mentioned, election astrology is an example of that. Similarly, horary astrology. The purpose of Modern astrology is to give you the opportunity to make choices at ANY time in your life. Instead of waiting for the "right" moment, modern astrology gives you a look at what energies are going around you right now that you can USE to get to where you, deep down, really want to get to.

It's a difference between focusing on fate and focusing on choice.

About the different astrologies,

Tim
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  #498  
Unread 08-07-2019, 07:11 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

https://www.amazon.ca/Fated-Sky-Astr.../dp/0743268954

Somewhere in the above book The Fated Sky: A History of Astrology
there is a telling of an astrologer from the past that one day saw that the stars were affecting his natal chart in such a way, that he was worried that his life was in danger of being crushed. So he took it upon himself to use the free choice to stay at home and avoid the fates, and he invited his friends to join him. They ate and refreshed, and discussed things, the discussion went to something that he tried to retrieve a book from his shelf. It teetered and fell on him, crushing him to death.

You do have free will and the freedom of choices. You do have fate and it cannot be changed.

I would be considered a modernist, as I use the outermost planets and the stars.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology and Modern astrology are both astrology, to Jupiter

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Jupiter,

Modern astrology and Traditional astrology are both forms of astrology.
Traditional astrology is a form of astrology that pre-dates modernist astrology
both "traditional" and "modernist" are "forms of astrology"
"Traditional" is the original form of astrology
hence "traditional"
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Unread 08-07-2019, 12:07 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

Just as there are different kinds of cars you can buy,
so there are different forms of astrology you can use.
And just as cars all have in common that they have 4 wheels, a body,
and a way to propel themselves,
so astrologers all have in common that they use the planets
or other objects in the sky and come to certain conclusions
based on the positions of the stars.
according to a normal dictionary definition
astrology = the ancient practice of studying the movements
and locations of celestial bodies
in the belief that they influence human behavior
astrologers base their opinions on charts illustrating celestial objects
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