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  #26  
Unread 07-16-2019, 03:02 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Thanks JUIPTERASC for the recommendation and correction. I still have so many books to read and less time and money

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  #27  
Unread 07-16-2019, 03:12 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Thanks JUIPTERASC for the recommendation and correction.

I still have so many books to read and less time and money
Money is not required if you use the free links I provided
however much time IS required
to read, study AND vigilently practice


FREE pdf
THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLARS OF FATE
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/F...y-in-Astrology
2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer

also


entire contents of ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
translated from the original Ancient Greek
by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley
and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 07-16-2019, 03:35 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Money is not required if you use the free links I provided
however much time IS required
to read, study AND vigilently practice

Thanks and yes more time than money. I'm interested in occult and magick so already spent quite a lot of money already procuring books from abroad. So budgeting myself every now and then . My aim is to practise magic as done during renaissance from there move onto other types of magic, so I need to have strong foundation.
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  #29  
Unread 07-16-2019, 03:44 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Thanks and yes more time than money. I'm interested in occult and magick so already spent quite a lot of money already procuring books from abroad. So budgeting myself every now and then . My aim is to practise magic as done during renaissance from there move onto other types of magic, so I need to have strong foundation.
CHRISTOPHER WARNOCK is associated with that topic

https://www.renaissanceastrology.com...iccourses.html
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #30  
Unread 07-16-2019, 03:47 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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CHRISTOPHER WARNOCK is associated with that topic

https://www.renaissanceastrology.com...iccourses.html

Yes, did my homework . I will start once I've read all the books on traditional astrology I can get my hands on.
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  #31  
Unread 07-16-2019, 04:31 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Awareness can be freewill but depends on the quality and intensity of awareness. You can't be totally aware of your surroundings with no thoughts in your mind and do something awful like a murder because killing someone requires absence of your awareness or poorest quality of awareness to be precise and being overtaken by animalistic instincts.
Being aware of yourself is enough.

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This is what new age spiritual gurus have been doing for decades now brainwashing people and destroying their ability to question things discounting their experience. You can't create fate then it would not be called fate. Fate by definition is outside one's control.
Really don't see how thats brainwashing to not question things. It's actually making you QUESTIONG everything you know, including the meaning of fate, which you aren't really questioning, so I'm confused.





Quote:
Astrology is set in stone for few things depending on the placements and dignities of planets. You cannot escape certain things no matter what you do. And everyone would not have the same life as everyone's chart is different. The development of astrology, magic, alchemy etc., is only to counter the fate to the extent humans can so that they can live satisfactory life.

Nothing is set in stone. It's silly to believe that. Nothing in life is. Maybe an fosil is set in stone lol.


Quote:
Haven't you come across people who get things so easily and look like they don't even sweat for biggest things in life? Often these people are dumber than average, you honestly think they are capable of getting things so easily?
I have, and I have studied them carefully. Usually the things those people get would not satisfy me, so I can't be bothered, I don't envy them much. And mostly they get things easier cos they have no resistance, they don't feel "unworthy" to have things, so they are just allowing and accepting to whatever comes their way. Ignorance is bliss.



Quote:
Of course I believe in myself that is why when I'm doing enough and still I don't get results even after very long, I'm smart enough to know that it is not my fault. I have done my job. You can't perpetually fool yourself, eventually if you are sane and practical you will wake up to the reality.
I don't know which reality you are talking about, but I'm definitely happy with mine. It brings me great results, I'm happy. You might wanna wake up to a different reality because you seem rather negative.


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No body is concerned about future if everything goes well and falls in place. If you are constantly getting short end of the stick, you will want to know where the hell things went wrong?
What went wrong does not lie in the future but the past, so again I'm confused.

Quote:
New age beliefs, spirituality, backed up quantum mechanics are good for intellectual amusement and to feel good about yourself. At the end if you don't have the results, some people will question the methods giving importance to their experience while some discount their experience and say no universe will give me I just have to wait and I will. To them I say, good for you.
I get where you are coming from, I used to think the same way. It's all about the results. And I often discarded everything, calling it BS, new age ****, like you. But in the end I came to the realization that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be, and better be happy about it that constantly negative. Cos being negative never brought me anything than stress and obstacles, more than I had. The moment I stopped focusing on the end result and on the now, and adopted a more positive look on life, opportunities started coming my way and my life blossomed faster than I imagined. So, what can I say, it works for me. When it doesn't work for you, find something that does. But you can't tell me I'm fooling myself. Don't try to bring me to your level to validate your beliefs.
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  #32  
Unread 07-16-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Yes, did my homework . I
will start once I've read all the books on traditional astrology I can get my hands on.
BENJAMIN DYKES fluent in ancient languages translator of ancient texts
at https://bendykes.com/
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  #33  
Unread 07-16-2019, 05:31 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I get where you are coming from, I used to think the same way. It's all about the results. And I often discarded everything, calling it BS, new age ****, like you. But in the end I came to the realization that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be, and better be happy about it that constantly negative. Cos being negative never brought me anything than stress and obstacles, more than I had. The moment I stopped focusing on the end result and on the now, and adopted a more positive look on life, opportunities started coming my way and my life blossomed faster than I imagined. So, what can I say, it works for me. When it doesn't work for you, find something that does. But you can't tell me I'm fooling myself. Don't try to bring me to your level to validate your beliefs.

If a traditional astrologer reads your chart and can pin point or draw parallels to your high points or good events in your life, would you still say it is your own doing because of your free will and no influence from planets?

If your answer is 'yes' my follow up question would be then why do you even bother about knowing anything about astrology? Just with your free will you can create your own fate regardless of what kind of people you come across in your life. You surely don't need to know what planetary combinations your spouse has to exercise your free will in your relationship. Also, I find the aspect of integrating knowledge of planets or planets seen as archetypes into one's life rather silly though I'm a big fan of Jung solely on the reason that you don't need to invoke Mars to exercise your free will as you said awareness is all you need.

If 'no' and you think planets have some role, it goes to my very first post on how much role fate and free will have in one's life according to modern astrology? I don't want to go back to where I started.
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  #34  
Unread 07-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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If a traditional astrologer reads your chart and can pin point or draw parallels to your high points or good events in your life, would you still say it is your own doing because of your free will and no influence from planets?

If your answer is 'yes' my follow up question would be then why do you even bother about knowing anything about astrology? Just with your free will you can create your own fate regardless of what kind of people you come across in your life. You surely don't need to know what planetary combinations your spouse has to exercise your free will in your relationship. Also, I find the aspect of integrating knowledge of planets or planets seen as archetypes into one's life rather silly though I'm a big fan of Jung solely on the reason that you don't need to invoke Mars to exercise your free will as you said awareness is all you need.

If 'no' and you think planets have some role, it goes to my very first post on how much role fate and free will have in one's life according to modern astrology? I don't want to go back to where I started.
I'm open to someone pinpointing events in my life, but that never happened. Also I started to learn astrology cos I feared the future. I feared it even more after I learned astrology. Astrology became a tool for me to understand myself better.

Again, I've had so many transits that brought me NOTHING, that I'm really skeptical. I don't know how many percent the free will there is lol. There are events that are timed, true. I'm not denying that. But I believe I chose this prior to birth, because I honestly wouldn't change anything of my path so far, and I'd do it again the same way. Well I wouldn't react the same way, but I wouldn't remove events of my life. I believe it all happened for a reason.

SO I guess it's a fair mixture of both. The yin and yang.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 05:58 PM
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Thanks and yes more time than money. I'm interested in occult and magick so already spent quite a lot of money already procuring books from abroad. So budgeting myself every now and then . My aim is to practise magic as done during renaissance from there move onto other types of magic, so I need to have strong foundation.
I have a load of occult texts and astrological resources I can pass on to you, since I can see the earnest intensity in your desire for this type of knowledge. If you are interested let me know.
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  #36  
Unread 07-16-2019, 06:18 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Again, I've had so many transits that brought me NOTHING, that I'm really skeptical. I don't know how many percent the free will there is lol. There are events that are timed, true. I'm not denying that. But I believe I chose this prior to birth, because I honestly wouldn't change anything of my path so far, and I'd do it again the same way. Well I wouldn't react the same way, but I wouldn't remove events of my life. I believe it all happened for a reason.

SO I guess it's a fair mixture of both. The yin and yang.

Of course it is a mix of both in both the systems, fate is only for key events in one's life to keep the course in the right path for whatever reason we humans do not know. No one sane enough will ever say fate is forcing me to eat bad food and put on weight unless some serious illness is written in the charts.

On a side note there are some Indian yogis who are trained only to get flashes of intuition on events which will happen in the future, they apparently can even predict the events in the lives of enlightened humans or people who supposedly have conquered death. I have heard about them in a video of an Indian elightened master narrating his experience with them and I could relate to it as a colleague of mine shared his private experience with someone similar. They can't predict everything about your future but only certain things which pop up in their minds and they can even read your thoughts only if and when needed. They are at the mercy of their own yogic powers, that is the fate in action.

Seems like only some people come across these yogis that could be written in their fate as such experiences may create a long lasting impact and provoke them to question their understanding of universe and life.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-16-2019 at 06:29 PM.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 06:20 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I have a load of occult texts and astrological resources I can pass on to you, since I can see the earnest intensity in your desire for this type of knowledge. If you are interested let me know.

That would be so awesome thank you very much! Do I send you a PM?
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Unread 07-16-2019, 06:25 PM
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That would be so awesome thank you very much! Do I send you a PM?
It's totally cool. I'll send you a note once I get around to a computer.
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  #39  
Unread 07-16-2019, 06:26 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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It's totally cool. I'll send you a note once I get around to a computer.

Great, thanks.
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  #40  
Unread 07-16-2019, 10:48 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I have a story to tell you about a young man who wanted admission to the gurukul.
It concerns palm reading.

Palm reading, like at least psychological astrology, usually has two sides: a genetic side - what you are given at birth - and an epigenetic side - or what you have done with what you are given.

The young man's palm showed he didn't have the desired line as a birth potential.

So he was rejected by the guru who considered that he was only acting in accordance with what was fated and shown to one who could read the signs.
The young man carved the line into his palm with a knife.
The guru admitted him into the school, and the young man went on to standardize Sanskrit grammar.

http://www.moral-stories.com/2012/01/paninis-palm.html

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  #41  
Unread 07-17-2019, 04:48 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I wouldn't say. Planets appeared to US after we started observing them. Yes, they have been there before us, but we can't say if they had any effect on life on Earth.


Of course you can. Your thoughts exist in the 4D, whatvever you think, you attract to your physical reality. Whatever you think you ARE, you become in your physical reality. It's not just for astral projection. I don't even believe astral projection is to the 4D. But thats irrelevant to the topic.


I don't see how thats relevant to what I said and the point I was trying to make.


Astrology is not discovered, it's invented. The difference is HUGE. Discovery means something was already there, and you just found it. We discovered pyramids, we didn't invent them. We discovered continents, didn't invent them. Astrology is not astronomy. We discovered planets and acknowledged their existance, and used that to invent astrology. Astrology is a man made tool. People can believe whatever they want, that it was handed by Gods or whatever, but it was still filtered by a man's limited consciousness. Hence, it's a subject of change and observation. Physics department knows pretty much nothing about physics, because it's a constant process of discovering new things which often times say the old things they discovered aren't true or simply don't work.



If you have elevated Saturn , then you have octaves, different levels of consciousness, which again proves my point.


As everything else.


I HAVE had it another way. I felt doomed, I felt angry and mad, then I started accepting my "fate" and settling for less, and absorbing the victim consciousness, until I was having none of the BS astrology can serve at times. The doom and gloom mentality.


Oh we don't. We know as much as we can at the time being. But that changes constantly. Everything is in motion, the universe is expanding, WE are expanding. That's why we have outdated belief systems, hence outdated astrology.



That's okay, we are all allowed to share our perception. I do see immense evolution because I focus on it. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong places? I see this evolution being mental, emotional and spiritual more than physical. I don't think we need physical evolution right now, before we evolve the other aspects of ourselves. I don't think quality of life has degenerated terribly. If anything I think it has improved immensly. We no longer kill our neighbour for mundane reasons, we are able to solve conflict in a much more peaceful way. We don't die before 30 our of bad hygiene or lack of knowledge of the world around us.

You don't see evolution because you make the comparison of what YOU THINK we should look like as a race and what we are, rather than compare what we WERE and what we ARE NOW. And this is not how evolution works really. It's nice to have a vision of a better future, but don't use it to determinate the now. Acknowledge where we came from and how much we have accomplished, and understand we are all trying to move forward. It's just hard, because when you go UP , by up I mean judging goverments and people in power... it's hard. It's easy to judge someone from your home, but if you were put in that situation, I doubt you would do any better.

We can only imagine what "evolved" species looks like, but truth is, there is no end to evolution. So we can't know. It's best to work with what we have.


I agree deeply with everything @Frisiangal said. The only "fate" comes from the certain knowing that a certain planet will aspect some of your natal ones. But what will happen? NO ONE can tell you. They can try.
I've had so many transits that brought me virtually anything. I go back and I try hard to find a meaning and what happened, but nothing. How do you explain that?
You don't know me, my history, or my thought processes. You make a lot of assumptions, and my perception is that you believe what makes you comfortable. It's your life, do what you want, but don't expect me to buy into it. I come here for astrology, not fantasy, philosophy, psychology, or 'new age'. Structure and discipline work.
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  #42  
Unread 07-17-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Of course it is a mix of both in both the systems, fate is only for key events in one's life to keep the course in the right path for whatever reason we humans do not know. No one sane enough will ever say fate is forcing me to eat bad food and put on weight unless some serious illness is written in the charts.

On a side note there are some Indian yogis who are trained only to get flashes of intuition on events which will happen in the future, they apparently can even predict the events in the lives of enlightened humans or people who supposedly have conquered death. I have heard about them in a video of an Indian elightened master narrating his experience with them and I could relate to it as a colleague of mine shared his private experience with someone similar. They can't predict everything about your future but only certain things which pop up in their minds and they can even read your thoughts only if and when needed. They are at the mercy of their own yogic powers, that is the fate in action.

Seems like only some people come across these yogis that could be written in their fate as such experiences may create a long lasting impact and provoke them to question their understanding of universe and life.
I have predicted the future too! Quite a few times. It actually gave me a better understanding. I was learning to read cards and people kept asking me about the future, I was quite scared ,esp the first few times after things happened the exact way cards showed me. I see the future sort of as the outcome of certain decision we made on a deeper level or work we put in.
Also, when it comes to meetings. "Fated" meetings. I went to a .. spiritual seminar I guess? The person who was showing the practice believes that in the non physical realm we are all at the same place. Imagine all humans in one room. So you see someone and you are like "Hey you! Let's meet down there!" Haha. That really resonated with me.

Einstein believed that all has happened already from the big bang to the destruction of our kind and earth, and our brains are just slowing it down to process it. Jung believes that astrology only shows our characters but not our fate, which o believe too.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 08:11 AM
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You don't know me, my history, or my thought processes. You make a lot of assumptions, and my perception is that you believe what makes you comfortable. It's your life, do what you want, but don't expect me to buy into it. I come here for astrology, not fantasy, philosophy, psychology, or 'new age'. Structure and discipline work.
Everyone believes what makes them comfortable. I'm not here to persuade you ,we were just debating and I was just answering. In the end your belief is your free will.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 08:17 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Self-fulfilling beliefs.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 09:49 AM
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Self-fulfilling beliefs.
Is that bad? Aren't all beliefs self fulfilling ?
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Unread 07-17-2019, 10:07 AM
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Is that bad? Aren't all beliefs self fulfilling ?
That's all a Piscean ever does.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 11:07 AM
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That's all a Piscean ever does.
Haha yup! I'd include all mutable signs. Actually I think this counts for every person regardless of signs. I've seen it times and times again. Fixed signs tend to find it harder to change their opinions and they seem to get stuck in stubbornness at times. However once they adopt a position outlook, it's there for life. Nothing can shake it. Cardinal energy somewhere in the middle of mutable and fixed. They tend to be very sure about their beliefs however if it doesn't work they are quick to change.

Perspective is quite the interesting tool. I've observed it in myself and many others. The more people focus on the negative the more they see that and somehow get themselves in negative situations. Same for positive outlook. And that doesn't mean the negative is being ignored, it's just not much focus goes there. Whenever something negative happens, the mind quickly switches to "Okay, how can I make this positive ? What can I do to have the best outcome from this situation?"
I wouldn't call this pink glasses syndrome. I think it's quite realistic.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 11:43 AM
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Haha yup! I'd include all mutable signs. Actually I think this counts for every person regardless of signs. I've seen it times and times again. Fixed signs tend to find it harder to change their opinions and they seem to get stuck in stubbornness at times. However once they adopt a position outlook, it's there for life. Nothing can shake it. Cardinal energy somewhere in the middle of mutable and fixed. They tend to be very sure about their beliefs however if it doesn't work they are quick to change.

Perspective is quite the interesting tool. I've observed it in myself and many others. The more people focus on the negative the more they see that and somehow get themselves in negative situations. Same for positive outlook. And that doesn't mean the negative is being ignored, it's just not much focus goes there. Whenever something negative happens, the mind quickly switches to "Okay, how can I make this positive ? What can I do to have the best outcome from this situation?"
I wouldn't call this pink glasses syndrome. I think it's quite realistic.
Seems like Virgoans prefer uncomfortable beliefs for their self-fulfillment. Have you noticed that to be the case? Possibly Capricorns as well.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Seems like Virgoans prefer uncomfortable beliefs for their self-fulfillment. Have you noticed that to be the case? Possibly Capricorns as well.
Not really. Depends in which area of life it is. Virgos are naturally very anxious and impatient ,I've seen quite a few who always believe things will work out for the best and they do. I've seen that even more with Capricorns , I think it has to do something with their ruler Saturn representing lessons and timing. I myself am Capricorn and Saturn dominant . It's Saturn who taught me that all things happen for a reason and often it's for our highest good, even if it doesn't seem like that at the moment. But every time I go back to something that failed due to Saturn restrictions and limitations and I think .. **** thank God it happened this way or it didn't happen at all. I see links of how if certain events happepened when I wanted them to, I wouldn't have had an opportunity for something better .
I think our conscious minds don't always see the bigger picture and that's fine. That's where programming comes into play. And subconscious programing is pretty much belief system. Some people of course have to work harder on that. Even tho I'm a leo moon and being optimistic comes naturally to me, I still struggled a lot to see my own pattern and my own negative self fulfilling beliefs.
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david starling (07-17-2019)
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Unread 07-17-2019, 01:39 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
I have a story to tell you about a young man who wanted admission to the gurukul.
It concerns palm reading.

Palm reading, like at least psychological astrology, usually has two sides: a genetic side - what you are given at birth - and an epigenetic side - or what you have done with what you are given.

The young man's palm showed he didn't have the desired line as a birth potential.

So he was rejected by the guru who considered that he was only acting in accordance with what was fated and shown to one who could read the signs.
The young man carved the line into his palm with a knife.
The guru admitted him into the school, and the young man went on to standardize Sanskrit grammar.

http://www.moral-stories.com/2012/01/paninis-palm.html
I'm hearing this strange story about Panini for the first time. It may be true, may not be true but like a myth there is an underlying meaning which I don't think need to be explained. Someone who completely believes in deterministic universe might say Panini was supposed to cut a line in his palm and there is no way to counter argue with such a statement except through personal experience. I don't hold the position that universe is completely deterministic we are machines but fate and free will together play out the dynamics, in traditional fate has a lot of power to influence events while in modern free will has more power. This statement I believe to be completely true.
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