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  #1  
Unread 07-15-2019, 10:04 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Hi,

This is a thread to continue to discuss on fate vs free will in traditional astrology which brought forth questions where there needs to be comparison of traditional vs modern astrology. As the moderator suggested I created this new thread.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=127790

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
and also
I am curious where the assumption comes from that either modern astrology or traditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ?
The assumption comes from the doctrines on which traditional astrology was developed by older civilizations. Traditional astrology clearly holds the position that fate has a lot of say on the way events unfold and humans have little free will, planets are seen as living gods, hence the methods to earn their favour.

Modern astrology though may be good for doing psychotherapy on yourself and your clients, it does not seem to offer a lot in terms of having control or coming to terms with the unseen forces in one's life. Tainted with new age beliefs it gives assurance that humans have more control in their lives, any bad thing that happens to them is just a learning experience, things will improve etc. Moreover most people are drawn to modern astrology because of its appeal in explaining superficial things depending on planetary combinations. For eg., Scorpio risings and Scorpios can't stop beating their drums on how special they are on their looks and their sex appeal. (I'm a Scorpio rising)

Vedic astrology though fatalistic offers remedies to make one's life slightly better but again some astrologers believe they work while some don't on the clause that if remedies are not working for you then they were never meant to work for you in the first place, again fatalistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars
Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.
If you are confused by this point, I am still bothered by my inability to change some things and I do not want to remain confused listening to conflicting ideologies of vedic astrology nor modern western astrology.

Wouldn't you be better off if you know how much role fate has and it is up to you on the amount of effort you want to put for anything vis-ŗ-vis other systems which say keep working, things will come and you keep wondering till when?


Last edited by lostinstars; 07-15-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 10:25 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Hi,

This is a thread to continue to discuss on fate vs free will in traditional astrology which brought forth questions where there needs to be comparison of traditional vs modern astrology. As the moderator suggested I created this new thread.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=127790

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora
and also
I am curious where the assumption comes from that either modern astrology or traditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ?


The assumption comes from the doctrines on which traditional astrology was developed by older civilizations. Traditional astrology clearly holds the position that fate has a lot of say on the way events unfold and humans have little free will, planets are seen as living gods, hence the methods to earn their favour.

Modern astrology though may be good for doing psychotherapy on yourself and your clients, it does not seem to offer a lot in terms of having control or coming to terms with the unseen forces in one's life. Tainted with new age beliefs it gives assurance that humans have more control in their lives, any bad thing that happens to them is just a learning experience, things will improve etc. Moreover most people are drawn to modern astrology because of its appeal in explaining superficial things depending on planetary combinations. For eg., Scorpio risings and Scorpios can't stop beating their drums on how special they are on their looks and their sex appeal. (I'm a Scorpio rising)

Vedic astrology though fatalistic offers remedies to make one's life slightly better but again some astrologers believe they work while some don't on the clause that if remedies are not working for you then they were never meant to work for you in the first place, again fatalistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars
Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.


If you are confused by this point, I am still bothered by my inability to change some things and I do not want to remain confused listening to conflicting ideologies of vedic astrology nor modern western astrology.

Wouldn't you be better off
if you know how much role fate has
and it is up to you on the amount of effort
you want to put for anything vis-ŗ-vis other systems
which say keep working, things will come
and you keep wondering till when?
Certainly
HOWEVER
in India astrology is accepted as a science by the government
and it is common practice to frequently consult astrologers
and therefore
in India times of birth are usually far more reliable
whereas in the West where astrology is considered fairground entertainment
anyone may self-style as "an astrologer"
and commence making pronouncements re: natal charts
the consequence is
few take astrology seriously

NEVERTHELESS
there are experienced traditional astrologers in the West
who practice classical traditional astrology
and in order to do that
those astrologers have spent considerable time
reading and studying ancient classical astrological texts
but
most western astrology is modernist astrology
for example this site is 85% modernist astrlogical tropical astrology
we have no western sidereal board

fact is
unless a natal chart is reliably timed
then "what fate holds in store" cannot be discerned from that chart
for example
frequently members re-post new charts
after discovering their time of birth on medical records
differed from that as given by family members from memory
and so
step one is to find a reliable time of birth
which may require RECTIFICATION
and
few astrologers offer a rectification service
simply because it is so time consuming
there is a discussion at h https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=51626
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Unread 07-15-2019, 10:35 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I have seen times and times how intention and awareness can shift people's lives and that can't be seen in the chart. I believe our awareness is our free will. If we are willing to see our shadows and accept that we are one with everything (as often astrology teaches us that) we can shift any challenging aspect in our chart and make it work for the best.

Feeling one with the universe also brings in the feeling that the planets are external manifestation of your inner world, making it easier to observe it. We are karmic beings and we are dependant on each other which often leads us to carry pain that's not even ours. That pain itself is what's sabotaging our reality.

I see fate as our highest good. Often bad things happen to give room for good things to happen. Often "fate" rips things out of.our hands only.to give us more or something even better. Fate is also something we create. And we create it I'm either easy or compelx way. The way we view our future is already creating our fate. Our inner beliefs create our fate. If we believe we are unworthy of something we won't have it. If we believe we are, we will pass every challenge and obstacle to have it.

If fate was out of our control ,then astrology would have set in stone interpretations and nothing would vary and everyone would have the same life. However, we all know that's not the case. So if you wonder why astrology isn't set in stone, it's because of the level of our awareness aka free will.

Since we live in a very physical world with perceived linear time, timing is a huge player. Sometimes we work on something for years before we get it. And that's ok. If we get frustrated why something isn't happening after so much work ,then it's best to ask ourselves why. We might find even more inner blockages.

People don't really know themselves. It's one thing I came to realize. Majority of people don't have a clear perspective on themselves as individuals. Perhaps that's why our 7th house is our mirror.


Vedic astrology offers remedies and of they work they work only because the native believes in them. It's the same thing with modern astrology, whereas it challenges you to believe in yourself rather than gods.

I don't think we need to know everything. Life is too short and would be boring and overwhelming if we knew every step of the way. It's fun to be surprised. After all we are all here to find a way to live happy.lives regardless of external happenings.

Those who want more control over their fate need to put in the work.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


The assumption comes from the doctrines on which traditional astrology was developed by older civilizations. Traditional astrology clearly holds the position that fate has a lot of say on the way events unfold and humans have little free will, planets are seen as living gods, hence the methods to earn their favour.

Modern astrology though may be good for doing psychotherapy on yourself and your clients, it does not seem to offer a lot in terms of having control or coming to terms with the unseen forces in one's life. Tainted with new age beliefs it gives assurance that humans have more control in their lives, any bad thing that happens to them is just a learning experience, things will improve etc. Moreover most people are drawn to modern astrology because of its appeal in explaining superficial things depending on planetary combinations. For eg., Scorpio risings and Scorpios can't stop beating their drums on how special they are on their looks and their sex appeal. (I'm a Scorpio rising)
I think this question stems from a misunderstanding about what astrology, religion, philosophy, culture, psychology, and psychotherapy can tell you, respectively. In fact you may be interested to learn more about the history of psychotherapy in both India and in Mediterranean civilizations and American economic culture. Questions about fate and free will are NOT the province of either traditional or modern astrology alone. Religious, cultural, and economic beliefs play a huge role in who has the ability to ask certain questions and also to answer them in a particular way.

Youíre equating modern astrology with what you read on the Net, which is not fair. Not all modern astrology is psychological, either.

Traditional astrology may, in its dour pronouncements, vibrate more in alignment with a traditional cultural orientation. But itís also good to remember that spiritual secrets have been just that historically: secrets. The question youíre asking has an answer secret to us, and itís inside you.

Neither traditional astrology nor modern astrology will tell you precisely how much to strive or let go. You might be reassured by the formulas and weights and measures of traditional astrology, but they are parts of a picture and accounting for aspects must be done holistically. You can step as far in or as far back as you like, but the center is in the observer after all.

In my opinion all astrology has a psychological effect; how and whether you acknowledge it also affects you.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 07:38 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate.

We are obligated to make choices daily, and these choices have the appearance of being made freely. It is an illusion. If we look carefully at "prior causes", we find a string which disappears into unconscious regions: the Labyrinth of Minos.

What is not conscious appears as fate.

If we wish to be free of fate, we must become fully conscious. Narrow is the way and strait the gate, and few there be that find it.

So, most of us live lives bound by fate.

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Unread 07-15-2019, 09:43 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate.

We are obligated to make choices daily, and these choices have the appearance of being made freely. It is an illusion. If we look carefully at "prior causes", we find a string which disappears into unconscious regions: the Labyrinth of Minos.

What is not conscious appears as fate.

If we wish to be free of fate, we must become fully conscious. Narrow is the way and strait the gate, and few there be that find it.

So, most of us live lives bound by fate.
Well that fate is still determined by you. Unconscious you. In fact, your choices prolly wouldn't change at all if you had full awareness. You would just have deeper understanding of why certain things need to happen, and peace for those things happening instead of feeling like a victim, or that life is unfair.

And I'd disagree, I'd say majority of our lives is free will. It's just... you gotta be... kinda... smart enough to see it. It's not fate that you cheated on your girlfriend, and then she ended up cheating on you. No, you attracted exactly what you are. It wasn't fate that you met HER either. You attracted exactly what you are, even tho you didn't know it at the time. No one knows they are a cheater until they are presented with the option to cheat. This is when you "face your maker" and this is when you write your destiny. How's that fate? It was entirely your choice, so you can't act surprised by the consequences.

Is it fate you lost your job? Prolly? Or maybe you just weren't performing well enough, or maybe you were devaluing yourself, and your higher self knew you could do better so it set you up for a short term job, or even sabotaged you?

This separation way of thinking is getting outdated. I personally see people who believe in fate out of their control to often exhibit victim mind phenomenon. And being a victim never lead anyone to anything positive. However, owning up to your mistakes and learning and moving on, instead of blaming fate, rather than just accepting it's a natural law of cause and effect, now that's another story.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps free will is limited to those who had put in the work, who take the harsh responsibility for their mistakes, who put in the time to reflect on their inner world and how they treat themselves and others.

Cos in the end the world is about perception. Nothing is right or wrong. But people have believed for eons in fate and Gods, and ... we only started advancing as a race when atheists popped up. People who believe they are responsible for their own lives. SO just saying... time for a change.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 12:53 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

If my life is characterized by "free will", but that free will is Unconscious, as you say,

Well...that's quite a stretch.
The will is an instrument of consciousness. It comes of Desire, and shows inclination, volition, determination.... Will is absent in states of unconsciousness simply because the will is a conscious faculty.

I believe (a belief, not necessarily true) that I create my own destiny, or fate. But most of our life (I am speaking of most of us, not the fully conscious few) is controlled and directed by unconscious powers.

Thus, although we ourselves create our lives, we do so unconsciously and therefore beyond the purview of will.

Consider our limitations.
I am human. I am not a fig tree, a mosquito or frog. I can only perceive the world through human eyes.

I am white, I am male, I am old. To the best of my knowledge I did not choose these things. Each and all have much to say about my life, my destiny.

Why have I lived the past 77 years just as my horoscope suggests? Because I willed it so? All along the path of life, and frequently, we are offered opportunities to make choices that, if taken, would dramatically change our fate. But we do not take those opportunities. We make the choices that propel us along in our prescribed fate.

Why?

Please explain how astrology can work given effective free will. (It can't, but give it a go.)

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Unread 07-16-2019, 07:23 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Greybeard, I like this quote.

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Please explain how astrology can work given effective free will. (It can't, but give it a go.)
It brings so much to mind.

One good illustration is an excerpt from Tennessee Williams' bio I read decades ago. I may be paraphrasing here. TW overheard a young man who was in love with his then, fiance, admonishing her; "He can never love you like I do, just look at him! Do you think he can help what he is?"

For the benefit of the unfamiliar, TW was a brilliant playwright, as renowned for his material as Shakespeare. He was also, in his day, what was considered a notorious (and back then, it was notorious) homosexual.

Than I consider my personal experiences, and choices that were offered to me that I know would've "made" me, but under terms I could never live with.
So, the rest of my life I've been subjected to innumerable remarks about "how talented" I am. I'm especially sick of hearing; "If I had your YOUR talent.."

People really have no concept of what is at stake, and how many have quite literally sold their souls to be where they are.

I don't have much, but I do know what little I have, is real.
Chalk that up to my 2nd house sun.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 08:05 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Do I understand you to say that you have exercised free will in rejecting offers that would have made you?
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Unread 07-16-2019, 08:24 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

A lot is said about mastery and transcendence of chart energies, especially in modern astrology where the "right" use of free-will is seen as a remedy to the problems brought on by astrological influences. Through the continued consciousness that is exercised one would eventually get to a point where they are no longer beholden to planetary energy, and this would supposedly result in a free man unchained from the wheel of samsara.

What I'm wondering is, if a person were to hypothetically reach this state of consciousness, would they really need to slough off the vehicle (natal matrix) that allowed them to acquire this exalted state in the first place? I'm reminded of the Zen proverb, "Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water."
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Unread 07-16-2019, 08:47 AM
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Do I understand you to say that you have exercised free will in rejecting offers that would have made you?
Think about those actresses who say they were "forced" to trade sexual favors in return for a substantial acting career.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Please explain how astrology can work given effective free will. (It can't, but give it a go.)
I will jump to this because I feel it will include all the rest of your post.

Imagine all the planets were designed to be a perfect quantum clock for lesser beings like us.

Now imagine time is not linear. Well you don't need to imagine cos it's not. Time is a 4th dimensional concenpt. But imagine you are a multi- dimensional being cos you are. Your thoughts are not 3 dimensional. They don't have shape or form.. or do they? But you can't really see them, touch them, smell them, taste them... You cannot sense them. So far by the definition of reality , your thoughts are not real. But they are. You know they are, cos only you hear them in your head and create them.

Now imagine you exist in a few other dimension. Let's say the 11th dimension. Where your soul/consciousness is one with all. Where all is happening now and there is no present no future. That higher self chose to be born at a specific time and place, to attach to specific planets, to experience itself in a specific way. To learn and grow and help others and experience certain things.

The ones who created astrology , created it by observation. That observation and interpretation comes from their inner world, inner limitations or lack of such. It's impossible to be true for all. I don't see astrology working at all.

I've seen people who reached a higher lev of consciousness, and astrology just does not work for them. Or at least it works I'm very different ways that it works for others.

If astrology worked with no free will, every person on the planet with Saturn in 7th should have died alone. Not the case however.


You might have ended up living your life according to astrology because you put too much weight in it.

I've noticed common agenda in humans that they need something to validate their reality, their feelings, and their thoughts. Dreams, desires, etc. I've done that myselfz but I found it to be futile.

Maybe I believe this because my chart is awful and challenging. But I definitely don't believe im ruled by planets or something else than me.

I believe every planet is a mirror of my inner self, a broken mirror of all the components of my characters . Whenever I have a problem in my life I turn to astrology to see physically that internal part that's not working and fix it. Because I'm not there yet to do this without astrology, but honestly I aspire to reach it.

Astrology is nothing but a tool for self knowing and understanding better the universe. But if you understand yourself you will understand the universe.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 10:27 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Imagine all the planets were designed to be a perfect quantum clock for lesser beings like us.
Uh oh... Chicken & Egg.

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Now imagine time is not linear. Well you don't need to imagine cos it's not. Time is a 4th dimensional concept. But imagine you are a multi- dimensional being cos you are.
Can you utilize it besides of astral projecting? In the everyday world, linear time and limited dimension is all most access, and considering the awful mess we've made, can that be considered a bad thing?

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Your thoughts are not 3 dimensional. They don't have shape or form.. or do they? But you can't really see them, touch them, smell them, taste them... You cannot sense them.
Whoa; Where do you think culture originates? Yes, some of us have sensory acknowledgement and recognition. Let's not abandon telepaths.

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The ones who created astrology
Discovered, I think, or at least inherited.

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
If astrology worked with no free will, every person on the planet with Saturn in 7th should have died alone.
An elevated Saturn need not be quite so truncated in scope.

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I've noticed common agenda in humans that they need something to validate their reality, their feelings, and their thoughts. Dreams, desires, etc. I've done that myself but I found it to be futile.
Subject to perception.

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Maybe I believe this because my chart is awful and challenging.
Would you have it any other way?

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Astrology is nothing but a tool for self knowing and understanding better the universe. But if you understand yourself you will understand the universe.
How do we know this is all it is? To some, it is a faith, a framework, an unfolding, endless mystery. We may receive limited cosmic glimpses, but to profess to understanding the universe when we don't even understand what little is within our grasp?

btw; I'm not playing devil's advocate, but I don't see any evidence of evolution, and I do look. There are more human beings than ever, and quality of life and raw humanity has degenerated terribly. Conscientious teachers are in despair, new parents are furious what their babies are subjected to, autism and cancer are epidemic, and we've contaminated our planet so badly everything is dying. Would an evolved species allow anything so deadly as nuclear facilities to proliferate, much less spew for eight years? Would an evolved species unquestioningly endure subjugation by the sequestered one percent?

Last edited by jac; 07-16-2019 at 10:45 AM.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 10:30 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Do I understand you to say that you have exercised free will in rejecting offers that would have made you?
Hahaa.. nice to imagine, but no. Ultimately, no.
For me, as I am, early basic character having changed not at all, no.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 12:41 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Uh oh... Chicken & Egg.
I wouldn't say. Planets appeared to US after we started observing them. Yes, they have been there before us, but we can't say if they had any effect on life on Earth.

Quote:
Can you utilize it besides of astral projecting? In the everyday world, linear time and limited dimension is all most access, and considering the awful mess we've made, can that be considered a bad thing?
Of course you can. Your thoughts exist in the 4D, whatvever you think, you attract to your physical reality. Whatever you think you ARE, you become in your physical reality. It's not just for astral projection. I don't even believe astral projection is to the 4D. But thats irrelevant to the topic.

Quote:
Whoa; Where do you think culture originates? Yes, some of us have sensory acknowledgement and recognition. Let's not abandon telepaths.
I don't see how thats relevant to what I said and the point I was trying to make.

Quote:
Discovered, I think, or at least inherited.
Astrology is not discovered, it's invented. The difference is HUGE. Discovery means something was already there, and you just found it. We discovered pyramids, we didn't invent them. We discovered continents, didn't invent them. Astrology is not astronomy. We discovered planets and acknowledged their existance, and used that to invent astrology. Astrology is a man made tool. People can believe whatever they want, that it was handed by Gods or whatever, but it was still filtered by a man's limited consciousness. Hence, it's a subject of change and observation. Physics department knows pretty much nothing about physics, because it's a constant process of discovering new things which often times say the old things they discovered aren't true or simply don't work.


Quote:
An elevated Saturn need not be quite so truncated in scope.
If you have elevated Saturn , then you have octaves, different levels of consciousness, which again proves my point.

Quote:
Subject to perception.
As everything else.

Quote:
Would you have it any other way?
I HAVE had it another way. I felt doomed, I felt angry and mad, then I started accepting my "fate" and settling for less, and absorbing the victim consciousness, until I was having none of the BS astrology can serve at times. The doom and gloom mentality.

Quote:
How do we know this is all it is? To some, it is a faith, a framework, an unfolding, endless mystery. We may receive limited cosmic glimpses, but to profess to understanding the universe when we don't even understand what little is within our grasp?
Oh we don't. We know as much as we can at the time being. But that changes constantly. Everything is in motion, the universe is expanding, WE are expanding. That's why we have outdated belief systems, hence outdated astrology.

Quote:
btw; I'm not playing devil's advocate, but I don't see any evidence of evolution, and I do look. There are more human beings than ever, and quality of life and raw humanity has degenerated terribly. Conscientious teachers are in despair, new parents are furious what their babies are subjected to, autism and cancer are epidemic, and we've contaminated our planet so badly everything is dying. Would an evolved species allow anything so deadly as nuclear facilities to proliferate, much less spew for eight years? Would an evolved species unquestioningly endure subjugation by the sequestered one percent?
That's okay, we are all allowed to share our perception. I do see immense evolution because I focus on it. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong places? I see this evolution being mental, emotional and spiritual more than physical. I don't think we need physical evolution right now, before we evolve the other aspects of ourselves. I don't think quality of life has degenerated terribly. If anything I think it has improved immensly. We no longer kill our neighbour for mundane reasons, we are able to solve conflict in a much more peaceful way. We don't die before 30 our of bad hygiene or lack of knowledge of the world around us.

You don't see evolution because you make the comparison of what YOU THINK we should look like as a race and what we are, rather than compare what we WERE and what we ARE NOW. And this is not how evolution works really. It's nice to have a vision of a better future, but don't use it to determinate the now. Acknowledge where we came from and how much we have accomplished, and understand we are all trying to move forward. It's just hard, because when you go UP , by up I mean judging goverments and people in power... it's hard. It's easy to judge someone from your home, but if you were put in that situation, I doubt you would do any better.

We can only imagine what "evolved" species looks like, but truth is, there is no end to evolution. So we can't know. It's best to work with what we have.


I agree deeply with everything @Frisiangal said. The only "fate" comes from the certain knowing that a certain planet will aspect some of your natal ones. But what will happen? NO ONE can tell you. They can try.
I've had so many transits that brought me virtually anything. I go back and I try hard to find a meaning and what happened, but nothing. How do you explain that?
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Unread 07-16-2019, 01:08 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I got married, was hospitalized, became a father and many other things years before astrology entered my life...all events marked by the astrological clock.

Anyway, you are welcome to your thoughts.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I got married, was hospitalized, became a father and many other things years before astrology entered my life...all events marked by the astrological clock.

Anyway, you are welcome to your thoughts.
There isn't one astrological combination that shows all of those life events.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 01:20 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Certainly

HOWEVER
in India astrology is accepted as a science by the government
and it is common practice to frequently consult astrologers
and therefore
in India times of birth are usually far more reliable
whereas in the West where astrology is considered fairground entertainment
anyone may self-style as "an astrologer"
and commence making pronouncements re: natal charts
the consequence is
few take astrology seriously
True, in India as I see most people use only a form of election astrology to start anything good across the board but many people still do not know the importance of exact time of birth for predications later in their life. There is still a good percentage of population giving birth at their homes instead of hospitals so the accuracy of the time could be questioned. But will concur with your point on the importance of astrology in the lives of those born in India most parents would be correct about the time of birth of their children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
there are experienced traditional astrologers in the West
who practice classical traditional astrology
and in order to do that
those astrologers have spent considerable time
reading and studying ancient classical astrological texts
but
most western astrology is modernist astrology
for example this site is 85% modernist astrlogical tropical astrology
we have no western sidereal board
Traditional astrology will definitely not appeal to many and the accessibility is also not easy, very expensive books and online programmes.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 01:49 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I have seen times and times how intention and awareness can shift people's lives and that can't be seen in the chart. I believe our awareness is our free will. If we are willing to see our shadows and accept that we are one with everything (as often astrology teaches us that) we can shift any challenging aspect in our chart and make it work for the best.

Awareness can be freewill but depends on the quality and intensity of awareness. You can't be totally aware of your surroundings with no thoughts in your mind and do something awful like a murder because killing someone requires absence of your awareness or poorest quality of awareness to be precise and being overtaken by animalistic instincts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I see fate as our highest good. Often bad things happen to give room for good things to happen. Often "fate" rips things out of.our hands only.to give us more or something even better. Fate is also something we create. And we create it I'm either easy or compelx way. The way we view our future is already creating our fate. Our inner beliefs create our fate. If we believe we are unworthy of something we won't have it. If we believe we are, we will pass every challenge and obstacle to have it.

This is what new age spiritual gurus have been doing for decades now brainwashing people and destroying their ability to question things discounting their experience. You can't create fate then it would not be called fate. Fate by definition is outside one's control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
If fate was out of our control ,then astrology would have set in stone interpretations and nothing would vary and everyone would have the same life. However, we all know that's not the case. So if you wonder why astrology isn't set in stone, it's because of the level of our awareness aka free will.

Astrology is set in stone for few things depending on the placements and dignities of planets. You cannot escape certain things no matter what you do. And everyone would not have the same life as everyone's chart is different. The development of astrology, magic, alchemy etc., is only to counter the fate to the extent humans can so that they can live satisfactory life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Since we live in a very physical world with perceived linear time, timing is a huge player. Sometimes we work on something for years before we get it. And that's ok. If we get frustrated why something isn't happening after so much work ,then it's best to ask ourselves why. We might find even more inner blockages.

Haven't you come across people who get things so easily and look like they don't even sweat for biggest things in life? Often these people are dumber than average, you honestly think they are capable of getting things so easily?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Vedic astrology offers remedies and of they work they work only because the native believes in them. It's the same thing with modern astrology, whereas it challenges you to believe in yourself rather than gods.

Of course I believe in myself that is why when I'm doing enough and still I don't get results even after very long, I'm smart enough to know that it is not my fault. I have done my job. You can't perpetually fool yourself, eventually if you are sane and practical you will wake up to the reality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I don't think we need to know everything. Life is too short and would be boring and overwhelming if we knew every step of the way. It's fun to be surprised. After all we are all here to find a way to live happy.lives regardless of external happenings.

Those who want more control over their fate need to put in the work.

No body is concerned about future if everything goes well and falls in place. If you are constantly getting short end of the stick, you will want to know where the hell things went wrong?

New age beliefs, spirituality, backed up quantum mechanics are good for intellectual amusement and to feel good about yourself. At the end if you don't have the results, some people will question the methods giving importance to their experience while some discount their experience and say no universe will give me I just have to wait and I will. To them I say, good for you.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 01:58 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


True, in India as I see most people use only a form of election astrology to start anything good across the board but many people still do not know the importance of exact time of birth for predications later in their life. There is still a good percentage of population giving birth at their homes instead of hospitals so the accuracy of the time could be questioned.

But will concur with your point
on the importance of astrology in the lives of those born in India
most parents would be correct about the time of birth
of their children.
Exactly
an accurately and reliably timed natal horoscopic astrology chart
is a necessity for accurate reliable delineation
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  #21  
Unread 07-16-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Questions about fate and free will are NOT the province of either traditional or modern astrology alone. Religious, cultural, and economic beliefs play a huge role in who has the ability to ask certain questions and also to answer them in a particular way.

I have to disagree, astrology was primarily developed to understand the role of fate and how the skies are causing things to happen consistently on earth, in the lives of humans and about the spiritual needs of humans to play their role in the cosmos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Youíre equating modern astrology with what you read on the Net, which is not fair. Not all modern astrology is psychological, either.

A lot of it is psychological and only some percent is for divinatory or predictive purpose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Neither traditional astrology nor modern astrology will tell you precisely how much to strive or let go. You might be reassured by the formulas and weights and measures of traditional astrology, but they are parts of a picture and accounting for aspects must be done holistically. You can step as far in or as far back as you like, but the center is in the observer after all.

At least you can tell your client you have malefic in bad dignity these are the effects as per the ancient astrologers. You can expect any of these or all of these. Now it is up to the person to decide on what s/he needs to do. When it comes to modern astrology, most would say you have more control over your life than the planets have on you. You are not doing this person any favour if things turn out to be real bad and as in most cases they do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
In my opinion all astrology has a psychological effect; how and whether you acknowledge it also affects you.

Of course traditional astrology also is psychological in terms of addressing the spiritual needs of the soul but that part is very little as I understand but if you constantly analyse things and do not act, basically you are wasting your life achieving nothing.
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  #22  
Unread 07-16-2019, 02:32 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Traditional astrology will definitely not appeal to many
modernist astrology uses traditional techniques

and is completely dependent on
the strong foundation of traditional astrology
i.e.
remove strong foundation of traditional astrology from modernist astrology
and
the entire edifice of modernist astrology collapses
in contrast

Traditional astrology is completely independent of modernist astrology
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

and the accessibility is
also not easy, very expensive books
and online programmes.
on the contrary
the entire contents of an ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
has been translated from the original Ancient Greek

by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
and has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley

and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf


Vettius Valens' Anthologiae
is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients
or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
which also includes tables and the description of algorithms
used by ancient astrologers and mathematicians
Professor Mark T Riley CSU
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  #23  
Unread 07-16-2019, 02:40 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
A lot is said about mastery and transcendence of chart energies, especially in modern astrology where the "right" use of free-will is seen as a remedy to the problems brought on by astrological influences. Through the continued consciousness that is exercised one would eventually get to a point where they are no longer beholden to planetary energy, and this would supposedly result in a free man unchained from the wheel of samsara.

If you bombard someone with messages like you create your own experience you attract things into your life, all the bad things you yourself caused, at some point that person may believe but when nothing good comes either s/he may feel cheated or look up to other new age believers for support and validation.

I have read some new age books on channeling and life. Most miss the point that you may create your experience and your reality but only in the confines of life theme you want to experience. If your life theme is to stay poor as an experience then no matter what you do how much you change your beliefs you can't be rich. But the funny part is no one knows what life theme they are playing out, only at the end of life they can look back and make out if they are wise enough.

I'm a huge fan of Joseph Campbell and have seen the six episode series of The Power of Myth several times. In the last episode he answers when asked about the purpose of life and quotes Schopenhauer. He says Schopenhauer wrote late in his life that when you look back at life everything seems to have an order and a purpose like a story. My interpretation - you will meet people you are supposed to and experiences you are supposed to have, even though aimless Will is at work. This is the closest metaphysical thing that ever came from one of the greatest pessimists which matches with the new age philsophies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
What I'm wondering is, if a person were to hypothetically reach this state of consciousness, would they really need to slough off the vehicle (natal matrix) that allowed them to acquire this exalted state in the first place? I'm reminded of the Zen proverb, "Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water."

The chart doesn't allow anything to happen it only shows how fate unfolds, if you are old school you will appease gods and work with their planetary angels. If you believe in new age modern astrology well you don't need a chart because you can be anything you want

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-16-2019 at 06:23 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 07-16-2019, 02:49 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

on the contrary
the entire contents of an ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
has been translated from the original Ancient Greek

by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
and has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley

and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf


Vettius Valens' Anthologiae
is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients
or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
which also includes tables and the description of algorithms
used by ancient astrologers and mathematicians
Professor Mark T Riley CSU

By accessibilty I meant it is not easy to understand reading old texts, I wasted several months figuring out how to start where to start unable to see some structured way of presenting the knowledge, only reading articles, websites till I stumbled on this forum and ordered the books suggested. Once one gets little understanding of the basics then reading Valens' script would help indeed.
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Unread 07-16-2019, 02:58 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Of course traditional astrology also is psychological
in terms of addressing the spiritual needs of the soul

but that part is very little as I understand
on the contrary
traditional astrology addresses this matter using multiple methodologies
for example

not only by delineating Ascendant/First House
i.e.
Main Rulerships of First House = Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note First House influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works, and speech.

First house represents the focal point for the personality
and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html

so not only using Ascendant ruler et al

but also by using various Lots aka Arabic Parts
link to a FREE pdf THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLAR OF FATE
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/F...y-in-Astrology
©2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer presents:
The study of fortune and destiny in the chart has been recovered

from the works of Vettius Valens.
In this study we consult the second century astrologer
to return to an astrology not known since his time.
This will force three major traumas upon us as astrologers:
Hard Hit #1
First, we are working within a deterministic system
wherein we are seeking to be privy to
the inscrutable workings of Fate.
At first blush we modern thinkers
may protest such a domination
of symbol over lifestyle, and may wish to reject this idea
as insufficiently allowing us to properly assign "Free Will" to our ego nature.
Ironically, this system is useful for also pointing out
how the Ego can prevent a morefortunate fate from occurring.
In other words
the system of these five additional, calculated "lots"
creates an astrological universe of its own.
It reveals a hidden aspect of the chart, our own role in it
and what indicators we must follow
in order to fulfill our destiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

but if you constantly analyse things and do not act, basically
you are wasting your life achieving nothing.

good point, well made!
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