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  #126  
Unread 03-19-2019, 05:22 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Dirius, it is horrifying what happened to your family members. Obviously I meant them no disrespect, and had no way of knowing about your family experiences.

But this is a thread about a progressive Democratic American politician. There is a huge difference between someone like presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a democratic socialist, and a socialist revolutionary soldier. There is a big difference between the governments of Scandinavia today and the USSR under a brutal dictator.

This doesn't mean you'd want Bernie Sanders for president or to live in Scandinavia, but just to point out differences among socialists.

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  #127  
Unread 03-19-2019, 05:42 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, it is horrifying what happened to your family members. Obviously I meant them no disrespect, and had no way of knowing about your family experiences.

But this is a thread about a progressive Democratic American politician. There is a huge difference between someone like presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a democratic socialist, and a socialist revolutionary soldier. There is a big difference between the governments of Scandinavia today and the USSR under a brutal dictator.

This doesn't mean you'd want Bernie Sanders for president or to live in Scandinavia, but just to point out differences among socialists.
No one in my immediate family died from communists (neither have I made such claim). But many people in my country did. And many families in Argentina have suffered because of some "idealist school boys" decided to take up arms and terrorize the civilians during the late 60's and early 70's. And then that lead to a civil war. Many civilian argentinians lost their lives to terrorist attacks, many children included.

Imagine if I had made fun of 9/11, or the orlando shooting? Would you find it funny? I don't think so. South America has suffered more than any other continent under marxist ideology. Both economically, and with their lives.

There is no diference, that is how it starts. Communism in south america began the same way as with Bernie Sanders. Some popular politician spousing socialist dogma that got elected by promising free education and free health-care. That is what happened with Chavez, which leads to the brutal dictatorship of Maduro in Venezuela. That is what happened in Argentina with Nestor Kirchner which lead to the near dictatorship of CFK. You are walking on that path in the U.S., and trust me it doesn't get better, it gets worst.
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  #128  
Unread 03-19-2019, 06:09 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

As for the nordic model, there are some interesting factors to it.

As a start, they have no progressive tax rates, but flat, treating each citizen equally (which isn't what Bernie proposes). They also have a low corporate tax rate (22%, unlike what Bernie wants or Obama had). They also have flexible employee laws, which make firing someone easier. Most of them have no minimum wage either (again, very distinct of what Bernie proposes). The high personal income taxes apply to each citizen equally (at a close to 50% rate, unlike what Bernie or AOC want for the "tippy-top").

So what part of the nordic model is Bernie proposing again??
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-19-2019 at 06:11 AM.
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  #129  
Unread 03-19-2019, 06:21 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Dirius, I am sorry for what your country suffered. But please delineate between different kinds of socialism.

I get the Washington Post new app. They recently did a historical article on the city of Milwaukee, which had a socialist mayor most of the time from about 1910 to 1960. The mayors campaigned on a promise to clean up corruption. Somehow Milwaukee turned out OK. I suspect that the influence of Big Labour in a then-heavily industrial city made a difference.

Look, I'm not going to the mat for Bernie Sanders. I wouldn't vote for him. I've read several books about Scandinavia, however. Most Scandinavians are OK with the taxes because of all the benefits they get in return. If they get sick or unemployed, they're covered.

My (correct) point is that all socialists are not the same.
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  #130  
Unread 03-19-2019, 07:40 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Unfortunately, they aren't. The diference lies in the predominent culture, and national identity. Because of this, socialism is pandered in a different manner to each different culture. But the underline is the same. Chavez began like bernie, just a guy with a political opinion. And the change in Venezuela was slow, because it tooks them 20 years to ruin it.

And how is it different? Lets say I don't want to pay the exhorbitant taxes in my country and I just wish to pay for the services I actually use, because it is my money. What would happen in Norway? or Sweden? or Denmark? I would go to jail. What does going to jail mean? It means a bunch of armed guys would enter my home, restrain me, and put me in a holding cell against my will. That is a violent act against my person, for the sole reason I want to keep the money I earned for myself. Sending armed police officers for wanting to keep my own money. So any person that is in favour of high taxation, by definition is in favour of doing violent acts against other individuals, specially when they demand othe people from paying more than they consume.

So ANY type of marxists, be it a "socialist-democrat" or a "communist", wants to the same. To bring harm to others if they oppose them.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-19-2019 at 08:11 AM.
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  #131  
Unread 03-19-2019, 08:08 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, I am sorry for what your country suffered. But please delineate between different kinds of socialism.

I get the Washington Post new app. They recently did a historical article on the city of Milwaukee, which had a socialist mayor most of the time from about 1910 to 1960. The mayors campaigned on a promise to clean up corruption. Somehow Milwaukee turned out OK. I suspect that the influence of Big Labour in a then-heavily industrial city made a difference.

Look, I'm not going to the mat for Bernie Sanders. I wouldn't vote for him. I've read several books about Scandinavia, however. Most Scandinavians are OK with the taxes because of all the benefits they get in return. If they get sick or unemployed, they're covered.

My (correct) point is that all socialists are not the same.
Actually, Scandinavia isn't really that socialist. It has a very strong free market despite the high taxes. And many scandinavians complain about the high taxes. Also, in Sweden, they tax the poor harshly compared to America where we tax the rich and give to the poor.

And also, we're much closer to the circumstances of USSR than we are to the principles set by the Founding Fathers in the constitution. And although progressives aren't exactly a totalitarian dictatorship, they are laying down the foundation for a totalitarian dictatorship. And that's what really concerns me.

Like Cortez's Green New Deal... she is asking us to give up our freedom and give the government even more power. And yet the government has so much power already. Like I'm scared for the future of this country and my own freedom. I can't believe someone like her is actually being taken seriously!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lxD-gikpMs
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Last edited by AppLeo; 03-19-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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  #132  
Unread 03-19-2019, 08:24 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Thanks for that, Leo. I got downvoted all to hell on reddit once for pointing out that the snow countries are very business and start-up friendly, and are not socialist.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/dan...-not-socialist
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  #133  
Unread 03-19-2019, 08:32 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Thanks for that, Leo. I got downvoted all to hell on reddit once for pointing out that the snow countries are very business and start-up friendly, and are not socialist.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/dan...-not-socialist
No one likes the truth, especially since the only good argument socialists have are the nordic countries. They always go to the nordic countries. But when you refute that, it will always set them off

But it makes sense. If a country is doing well, it's because there's some kind of a strong capitalistic base. In other words, they're still relatively free.

It's a fact that all socialist/communist countries fail or are in the process of collapsing from their own evil. So if a country is doing well, there's no way it's because of socialism.

Also, good article. If Waybread doesn't like my video, she can read the article for more proof.
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  #134  
Unread 03-19-2019, 08:56 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Socialism means the Government owns and operates the means of production and distribution, to gain the fullest possible control of the People. Bernie never advocated that, and neither has A.O.C., to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, neither are "socialists".
Fascism means the Government is run like a Corporation, allied with private-sector Corporations for purposes of monetary profit to gain the fullest possible control of the People. That's what we're headed for now.
The Founding Fathers were virulently anti-Corporate, and pro-Private enterprise.
Those who believe a Government's only job is to rule the nation in full partnership with the Corporations, with no regard for the Environment, the educational system, worker-safety, or those who require monetary or regulatory assistance, are the worst sort of Capitalists. The Constitution as it's written and intended by the Founding Fathers is fortunately opposed to their ideology.
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  #135  
Unread 03-19-2019, 08:59 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Thanks for that, Leo. I got downvoted all to hell on reddit once for pointing out that the snow countries are very business and start-up friendly, and are not socialist.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/dan...-not-socialist
Strong safety-net though. And LOTS of Government regulations.

Last edited by david starling; 03-19-2019 at 09:01 AM.
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  #136  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:18 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
No one likes the truth, especially since the only good argument socialists have are the nordic countries.

Well they did go bankrupt in the late 80's for all those socialist policies. In fact, since that time they've gone for lower taxes each year. Norway's corporate and income tax graphs:




https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/...ncome-tax-rate
https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/corporate-tax-rate

The graphs to show AppleLeo's point.
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  #137  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:21 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Unfortunately, they aren't. The diference lies in the predominent culture, and national identity. Because of this, socialism is pandered in a different manner to each different culture. But the underline is the same. Chavez began like bernie, just a guy with a political opinion. And the change in Venezuela was slow, because it tooks them 20 years to ruin it.

And how is it different? Lets say I don't want to pay the exhorbitant taxes in my country and I just wish to pay for the services I actually use, because it is my money. What would happen in Norway? or Sweden? or Denmark? I would go to jail. What does going to jail mean? It means a bunch of armed guys would enter my home, restrain me, and put me in a holding cell against my will. That is a violent act against my person, for the sole reason I want to keep the money I earned for myself. Sending armed police officers for wanting to keep my own money. So any person that is in favour of high taxation, by definition is in favour of doing violent acts against other individuals, specially when they demand othe people from paying more than they consume.

So ANY type of marxists, be it a "socialist-democrat" or a "communist", wants to the same. To bring harm to others if they oppose them.
What happens if you can't afford your medical care, your food, rent, or your mortgage? The man with a gun will throw you out in the street, to fend for yourself. And, if you resort to crime in order to survive , will throw you in prison.
We do have a different type of "socialistic" ideology, called "Social-Darwinism", which advocates letting the economically disadvantaged die off, since equating human worth with the ability to function well enough in a non-regulated Capitalist economic system, makes them "inferior" human beings. One well-known author actually labeled such people "giant rats"!

Last edited by david starling; 03-19-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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  #138  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:31 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Unfortunately, they aren't. The diference lies in the predominent culture, and national identity. Because of this, socialism is pandered in a different manner to each different culture. But the underline is the same. Chavez began like bernie, just a guy with a political opinion. And the change in Venezuela was slow, because it tooks them 20 years to ruin it.

And how is it different? Lets say I don't want to pay the exhorbitant taxes in my country and I just wish to pay for the services I actually use, because it is my money. What would happen in Norway? or Sweden? or Denmark? I would go to jail. What does going to jail mean? It means a bunch of armed guys would enter my home, restrain me, and put me in a holding cell against my will. That is a violent act against my person, for the sole reason I want to keep the money I earned for myself. Sending armed police officers for wanting to keep my own money. So any person that is in favour of high taxation, by definition is in favour of doing violent acts against other individuals, specially when they demand othe people from paying more than they consume.

So ANY type of marxists, be it a "socialist-democrat" or a "communist", wants to the same. To bring harm to others if they oppose them.
Dirius, are you actually equating the situation in Venezuela, which is almost entirely dependant on the price of oil, with the economy of the U.S.?
Btw, I don't recall Bernie advocating the Government takeover of the Oil-Industry. Can you quote him on that?

Last edited by david starling; 03-19-2019 at 09:36 AM.
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  #139  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:37 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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What happens if you can't afford your medical care, your food, rent, or your mortgage? The man with a gun will throw you out in the street, to fend for yourself. And, if you resort to crime in order to survive , will throw you in prison.
We do have a different type of "socialistic" ideology, called "Social-Darwinism", which advocates letting the economically disadvantaged die off, since equating human worth with the ability to function well enough in a non-regulated Capitalist economic system, makes them "inferior" human beings. One author actually labeled such people "giant rats"!
As it happens, we all live in countries based on christian values (or used to). Were we learn to help the sick and the poor, and those that can't help themselves. I'm for one, more than happy to help others with what I can. Problem is that if the goverment taxes me for 70% of my money (as it happens here in Argentina), I really don't have much left to give.

What people in the right-wing spectrum reject, is goverment compulsion. I for one, advocate charity. What I don't want is a useless politician getting involved in my private life so he can leech of my earnings.
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  #140  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Dirius, are you actually equating the situation in Venezuela, which is almost entirely dependant on the price of oil, with the economy of the U.S.?
Btw, I don't recall Bernie advocating the Government takeover of the Oil-Industry. Can you quote him on that?
What Bernie advocates is a giant goverment bureaucracy with regulations that will control most industries. Big goverment leads to cronysm, which leads to corruption. That is what happened in Venezuela.

He also wants high taxes, for the "tippy-top" (around 70%) which would kill investment in most industries. When you have no investment, your economy doesn't grow and does not develop, and you end up only being able to export basic goods that come from natural resources. This is why Venezuela is dependant on oil, because they have no investments in other areas and can only specialize in oil exports. Countries that develop their economies (and thus why they are called "developed" countries) are not affected so much when the price of their commodity goes down, because their economies are based on the production of a large number of products.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-19-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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  #141  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:48 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
As it happens, we all live in countries based on christian values (or used to). Were we learn to help the sick and the poor, and those that can't help themselves. I'm for one, more than happy to help others with what I can. Problem is that if the goverment taxes me for 70% of my money (as it happens here in Argentina), I really don't have much left to give.

What people in the right-wing spectrum reject, is goverment compulsion. I for one, advocate charity. What I don't want is a useless politician getting involved in my private life so he can leech of my earnings.
What in the h*ll are they doing with those tax-dollars? Nothing for an adequate Safety-net? Or, a sizable tax-deduction for charitable contributions?
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  #142  
Unread 03-19-2019, 09:52 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
What Bernie advocates is a giant goverment bureaucracy with regulations that will control most industries. Big goverment leads to cronysm, which leads to corruption. That is what happened in Venezuela.

He also wants high taxes, for the "tippy-top" (around 70%) which would kill investment in most industries.
Chavez nationalized the only major source of income for Venezuela, without just compensation to the private owners. That, and the drop in the price of oil is what killed the Venezuelan economy.
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  #143  
Unread 03-19-2019, 10:04 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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What in the h*ll are they doing with those tax-dollars? Nothing for an adequate Safety-net? Or, a sizable tax-deduction for charitable contributions?
In order to get a deduction you need to give to a charitable institution with tax-exempt status. So if I decide to give $50 to a homeless person living in the street, I can't write it off can I?

Also, you can only deduct income tax, and there is a limit of 50%. And I'm using your country as an example, because in Argentina the limit of charitable deductions is significantly less. And what is worse, I still have to pay the salary of the man that will give me my deduction, so I'm paying him so he can refund me my own money. Makes sense right?
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  #144  
Unread 03-19-2019, 10:18 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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In order to get a deduction you need to give to a charitable institution with tax-exempt status. So if I decide to give $50 to a homeless person living in the street, I can't write it off can I?

Also, you can only deduct income tax, and there is a limit of 50%. And I'm using your country as an example, because in Argentina the limit of charitable deductions is significantly less. And what is worse, I still have to pay the salary of the man that will give me my deduction, so I'm paying him so he can refund me my own money. Makes sense right?
Does Argentina have anything equivalent to our Food Stamps?
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  #145  
Unread 03-19-2019, 11:14 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Does Argentina have anything equivalent to our Food Stamps?
We have different subsidy programs that give monthly checks to poor people, mainly those with kids. There are many of them. We also have a subsidised energy and gas for poor people. We have other programs for disabled people.

To be honest, this isn't the biggest problem in the country (aside from the fact that it gives political parties control over poor people), and its not even the first place were I would do cuts, but rather the inmense amount of goverment workers that don't contribute anything to the economy and leech of the state.
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  #146  
Unread 03-19-2019, 12:09 PM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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We have different subsidy programs that give monthly checks to poor people, mainly those with kids. There are many of them. We also have a subsidised energy and gas for poor people. We have other programs for disabled people.

To be honest, this isn't the biggest problem in the country (aside from the fact that it gives political parties control over poor people), and its not even the first place were I would do cuts, but rather the inmense amount of goverment workers that don't contribute anything to the economy and leech of the state.
I see what you're saying, except that they are spending their income on goods and services, which helps the businesses hire more people and sell more products than just at the subsistence level. There's a lot of executive and middle-management leeching going on in the private sector as well.
Right-wingers do tend to demand higher performance standards than left-wingers, but there's a happy medium where the work's getting done well enough in a relaxed way without having to constantly "crack the whip".
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  #147  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:33 PM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

“On Friday, October 13, 1989, current New York representative and then-baby Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was born in the Bronx, New York City, New York, U.S.A., Earth. She was born, specifically, at 11:50 a.m., a piece of temporal information especially salient to astrologers.”

https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/alexa...y4is0X390BITJg
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  #148  
Unread 04-07-2019, 09:41 PM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Ilene, are you using the Outermosts in any way whatsoever in Chart-readings?
Sorry to take so long to reply, David, this one just got by me.
I occasionally use the outers in modern psychological astrology, but mostly for just a tiny bit of seasoning.
Because most of the time, you can see everything pretty well without the outers...or Chiron. And I say this with the outers having some very important aspects in my natal chart.
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  #149  
Unread 04-07-2019, 11:39 PM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

AOC’s progressed chart has the July 2nd total solar eclipse on her Jupiter but it is also opposite her progressed Saturn and Neptune with eclipse Saturn and Pluto on her progressed IC.

"Ilhan Omar: New York man charged with threatening to assault and kill ..."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/06/polit...eat/index.html


"Syracuse man found guilty of threatening to kill Maxine Waters, Obama"

https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2019/...ers-obama.html
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File Type: jpg AOC Prog TSE.jpg (69.7 KB, 0 views)

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  #150  
Unread 04-08-2019, 07:19 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Sorry, these links aren't hooking up. Can you check them? Thanks.
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