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Unread 03-24-2019, 10:36 PM
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List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Planets
1. Those who say that passive and destructive elements are naturally present with beneficent planets, like the cooling quality with the Moon and Venus, and the drying quality with Jupiter.
2. Those who say that active and fertile elements are naturally present with maleficent planets, like moderate heat with Mars, or moisture with Saturn, who is most removed from the earth.
3. Those who ''observe'' fictitious heliacal appearances with ecliptical degrees, like 7, 12, 15 and the like, rather than computing their arcus visionis, and similarly those who observe days with fictitious ''appearances'' or the so-called ''cazimi''.
4. Planetary Orbs with their countless variants.
5. Outer Planets, Asteroids and similar phenomena not capable of appearance and any sizable emanation reaching the earth.
6. The Countless Lots, Midpoints and Numbers for which no natural explanation can be given.
7. Those who neglect the Ascendant of the Moon, which is found by counting the distance from the Sun to the Moon from the Ascendant both by day, and by night.
8. Those who do not observe the topocentric longitudes of the planets.

Ecliptic or Places with respect to the universe
1. Application of Northern Hemisphere systems in the Southern Hemisphere.
2. Application of Seasonal Hemispheres systems in the Equatorial Zone, without proportion.
3. Constellations.
4. Zodiacs.
5. Mansions.
6. Exaltation degrees and their steps.
7. ''Dorothean'' and Morin's triangle rulers. Likewise the arrangement of the four elements around the four winds rather than around the four seasons.
8. Egyptian and Chaldean Terms.
9. Horas, Faces, Navamsas, Dodekatemoria, Monomoiria and the countless other vargas/divisions that are devoid of reason.
10. And all the fictitious traditions that follow those, to the detriment of the system of seasonal powers, that is, predomination by house, triangle, exaltation, term and aspect.

''Houses'' or Places with respect to the nativity
1. The traditional significations of the twelve houses, oriental sorcery, which as one contemporary of Morin put it, ''he would be ridiculous who might think that these ridiculous reasons require our refutation'' (Holden translation, Book 17).
2. Planetary Joys, Chaldean Orders and the like.
3. Sign-Houses, Equal-Houses and all not time-based quadrant divisions.
4. Those who do not take an offset from the ascensions, pre-ascensions and post-ascensions, or those who do not take 1/6, but take ecliptical degrees, or those who take 1/2 (by which I mean Dorotheus and some Indians), which is ridiculous with declining degrees.
5. Those who use systems employing ''risings, settings and culminations'' with circumpolar planets and fixed stars.
6. House cusps, for anything but noting the angularity powers.

Aspects and Configurations
1. Mundane, Ascensional and other non-ecliptic Aspects which are not in harmony with the universe.
2. Minor Aspects and other ''harmonic'' non-natural fictions.
3. Those who do not take the relationship by ecliptic place, and the seasonal powers within them, that is, those who accept ''out-of-sign configurations''.
4. Those who ignore the applications and separations within 15, and those who take bodily applications and separations when planets are on different sides of the ecliptic, similarly those who accept all whole sign applications and separations regardless of degree.

Natural Timing Systems
1. Those who use oblique and latitudinal directions, and those who accept as prorogators the five wandering planets regardless, when it is obvious that their powers are aroused only by the Sun, the Moon and the angles of the nativity.
2. Those who use sidereal revolutions, rather than the topocentric returns of the Sun and the Moon for the current place of the individual, and those who do not observe the five prorogatory places within them, Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Lot of Fortune and Midheaven.
3. Those who do not observe the ingresses, or those who neglect their power in the aforementioned configurations, their applications and separations.

Fictitious Timing Systems
1. All annual, monthly, daily and hourly progressions with all their variations of progression, whether by whole sign, or by degree, or by mean, or by true motions, by tropical month, or by synodic month, or by mean fictions, or by counting days, and the like. Likewise Secondary, Tertiary and other more logical progressions, yet not as natural in principle compared with the hourly movements, solar and lunar revolutions, and the ingresses of the planets.
2. 3rd, 7th, 40th and other ''days of the Moon''.
3. Dodekatemoria/Decennials, ''Zodiacal Releasing'', 129 years, lunar quarters, the exaltation method, the monomoiria method, the nine years of the Moon method, Firdaria, Indian Dasas, and all similar methods, whether they observe fictional or seasonal years.
4. Those who observe planetary years, ascensional times and their numerological combinations, rather than natural astronomy.
5. Likewise those who divide the life into two or three parts to the triplicity rulers, or those who do not accept the sevenfold division of life as necessary.

Other
1. Those who observe the ''Aries ingress'' for the whole world, when it is not the beginning of the ecliptic in the Southern Hemisphere, nor the only one in any hemisphere, rather than following the syzygies most preceding solstices and equinoxes for each season, which is most proper and natural, like Ptolemy rightly puts forward in his second book.
2. Those who observe conjunctions of superior planets and thereby establish their universal astrology, when it is not clear what is their reasoning for that. Likewise, those who base their predictions on fictitious meridians rather than the equator, like Ptolemy in his second book.
3. Those who follow traditions and mix all planets, places and aspects, rather than conjecturing particular predictions to natural sublunar universals.
4. Horary ''Astrology'' which is sorcery, and not the science of the stars.
5. ''Electional Astrology'' which is the domain of universals and nativities, rather than of lucky days and sorcery. It is also an affront to human dignity and the beneficial internal locus of control that every free human has.
6. Relocation Astrology which too is sorcery, rather than the investigation of the interplay of the two parts, universal and genethlialogical astrology.
7. In general, everyone who does not apply the physics of the planets in relation to our sublunar biology, from which one can thereby conjecture human affairs. It is of course impossible to enumerate all non-physical methods in our field, since we can conceive such a variety and combinations of them.


Last edited by petosiris; 03-25-2019 at 01:14 AM.
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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:22 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Likewise those who observe deep, fortunate, smoky and bright degrees with the tropical zodiac, while they are obviously based on the fixed stars. But we would be wise to scrutinize them even with precession, as the authors would often use non-natural or approximate methods for their projection. We would also be wise to avoid star lore, and instead investigate their influences by the method of mixture - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1B*.html#9 .
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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:26 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Excuse me, Master petosiris. [I will delete if not important].

I don't see synastry and composite chart in your list. While those 2 concepts are really hard for me to understand how "logically" works.

Thanks.
R
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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:30 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Excuse me, Master petosiris. [I will delete if not important].

I don't see synastry and composite chart in your list. While those 2 concepts are really hard for me to understand how "logically" works.

Thanks.
R
Composite charts are indeed fictitious, but since synastry by comparison of places are based on the scientific aspects of the stars, we must employ them, and Ptolemy gives natural procedures for this in 4.5 and 4.7 of the Tetrabiblos. See http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/4B*.html#5
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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:41 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

We might also add those who derive significations from the names of the planets, and from the numerology of degrees, or from the symbolism of glyphs. In the first case, the more natural names of the planets are Sun, Moon, Phainon, Phaethon, Pyroeis, Phosphoros and Stilbon, the gods of astronomy, and not of religion (Helios, Selene, Saturn/Kronos, Jupiter/Zeus, Mars/Ares, Venus/Aphrodite and Mercury/Hermes. Glyphs are Medieval and Renaissance occultist inventions, and the ancients generally used the first letters of the planets, like ''Z'' for ''Zeus'', much like one can use ''1'' for the so-called ''Aries'', by which I mean the place of the vernal equinox. I would say that the common names of the places and planets are dangerous meme-pathogens, judging by the state of modern tropical astrology.

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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:54 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

any astrologer that has to show his knowledge by denigrating others is a charlatan , not a astrologer

rahu
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Unread 03-25-2019, 12:57 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I would say that those who accept and teach anything without proper judgement are charlatans, or fools, rather than those who philosophize based on natural reasoning. I myself have suffered foolishness that includes most of the points above, but as Morin says, techniques like progressions for example work by pure chance, rather than consistently in accordance with nature. We might add to our list those who give extraordinary significance to the nodes, which are rationally to be taken only in the case of eclipses and the latitude of the Moon (which does influence its interpretation).

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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:24 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


I would say that those who accept and teach anything without proper judgement are charlatans,

or fools,
rather than those who philosophize based on natural reasoning.
.
Exactly

I consider myself a philosophically ignorant fool
yet I plod onwards
NIL DESPERANDUM

learning from members of our beginners learning forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I myself have suffered foolishness that includes most of the points above,

but as Morin says, techniques like progressions for example work by pure chance,
rather than consistently in accordance with nature.

We might add to our list those who give extraordinary significance to the nodes,

which are rationally to be taken only in the case of eclipses
and the latitude of the Moon (which does influence its interpretation).
vis a vis the Nodes
I have observed clear, obvious effects of eclipses and the latitude of Moon
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:26 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

If one contemplates the myriad unnatural techniques, the practitioner who is keen on natural knowledge may thereby work towards a systematic tree of knowledge, the hallmark of every certain science. I don't think anyone has achieved that, but the person who has most developed our natural subject, is Claudius Ptolemy - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html

He mostly avoided constellational forms and topical house considerations, though he was not infallible and employed the first from time to time, and the latter in two places, on injury (3.12) and on slaves (4.7). One place where I agree with Morin is 4.10, where he describes profections (his type were even more idealized than the Renaissance astrologers imagined, it was by whole-sign), this too is unreasonable. In my list above I mention the fanciful placement of countries on the ecliptic by winds from the fictitious Prime Meridian (his one was close to Ferro, not Greenwich). His astrology on the human races by equatorial placement is also mistaken, as evidenced by the modern psychometric measurement of intelligence of countries. One can be in doubts with the numerical significance of the ages, but not by their actual meanings by approximation. With the remainder of his work, I can hardly find anything unreasonable.

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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:33 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Composite charts are indeed fictitious, but since synastry by comparison of places are based on the scientific aspects of the stars, we must employ them, and Ptolemy gives natural procedures for this in 4.5 and 4.7 of the Tetrabiblos. See http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/4B*.html#5
Master petosiris,

I just wish to elaborate little bit on this. It's obvious that you're extensively using 2 lots; lot of fortune & lot of daimon. So, do you think that both of these 2 lots are having any importance in synastry?

Thank you
R
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:38 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Master petosiris,

I just wish to elaborate little bit on this. It's obvious that you're extensively using 2 lots; lot of fortune & lot of daimon. So, do you think that both of these 2 lots are having any importance in synastry?

Thank you
R
What about you read 4.5 and 4.7 in the link I've given you and then ask me question?
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:43 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


If one contemplates the myriad unnatural techniques, the practitioner who is keen on natural knowledge may thereby work towards a systematic tree of knowledge, the hallmark of every certain science.
I don't think anyone has achieved that,
If anyone has achieved that, they are not posting their results on our forum
unless on some obscure unnoticed thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post



but the person who has most developed our natural subject, is Claudius Ptolemy - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html


He mostly avoided constellational forms and topical house considerations, though he was not infallible and employed the first from time to time, and the latter in two places, on injury (3.12) and on slaves (4.7). One place where I agree with Morin is 4.10, where he describes profections (his type were even more idealized than the Renaissance astrologers imagined, it was by whole-sign).
Thank you for these insights
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:43 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:48 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
''We shall sketch each of these subjects briefly, explaining, as we said before, together with the effective powers by themselves, the actual procedure of investigation; as for the nonsense on which many waste their labour and of which not even a plausible account can be given, this we shall dismiss in favour of the primary natural causes. What, however, admits of prediction we shall investigate, not by means of lots and numbers of which no reasonable explanation can be given, but merely through the science of the aspects of the stars to the places with which they have familiarity'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#3
Ptolemy calls considerable work of his contemporaries to be ''waste of labour''. Every scientific advancement is done by treason!
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Unread 03-25-2019, 01:54 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds
No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''. I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like. I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers, you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.

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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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any astrologer that has to show his knowledge by denigrating others is a charlatan , not a astrologer

rahu
And that criticism

applies equally to all members posting on all boards of our forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds
and yet our forum is replete with disagreeing members
as evidenced by comments now gone
frequently deleted by moderators
even rahus signature advises us
and I quote:
"if you find a post significant, copy it as my post are being deleted and altered."
obviously only moderators or the OP may delete or alter any members posts

obviously politeness is essential
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.

You've got a weak case when you need to insult people (under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''. I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like. I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers, you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''.
I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as
your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like.
I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers,
you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects
that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.
One tends to agree with that perspective
because
certainly
it seems that some appear more sensitive than others
therefore
moderation is perhaps advised
we are all entitled to our different perspectives nevertheless
clearly
one is entitled to ones opinion
so long as ones opinion does not infringe forum rules
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:02 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.

You've got a weak case when you need to insult people (under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.
Have you ever found an astrologer who agrees with another?
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:03 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
One tends to agree with that perspective
because
certainly
it seems that some appear more sensitive than others
therefore
moderation is perhaps advised
we are all entitled to our different perspectives nevertheless
clearly
one is entitled to ones opinion
so long as ones opinion does not infringe forum rules
It's a hot topic in the hot topic arena.
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:05 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.

Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work. Ever. At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.

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Have you ever found an astrologer who agrees with another?
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:05 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.
You've got a weak case when you need to insult people

(under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.
Whether a comment "is under the guise of criticism" or not
is obviously a matter of personal oppinion
since the intent of the commenter
may have been misunderstood

of course we could outlaw any form of criticism whatsoever
but that seems unnecessarily extreme
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:07 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.

Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work. Ever. At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.
I have not used the word idiot, though I quoted Morinus and his contemporary astrologers using the words ''ridiculous'' or ''Arabic sorcery'' and Ptolemy using the words ''waste of labour'' which you might see similar. If they are using it, I guess it's common and traditional. Sometimes offending feelings is inevitable, I was offended by their remarks few months ago too. But now I understand that they were not with bad intentions at all, and I am thankful. I guess it does work in changing minds sometimes. I am 6.9 atheist, but I don't see how that can detract from my arguments.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-25-2019 at 02:11 AM.
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:12 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post


Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.
Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work.
Ever.
At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.
I'm fine with being called an idiot
in fact I tend to agree with anyone who calls me an idiot
but then
we all have different perspectives
It's not unusual to hear others referring to all and sundry as "idiots"
it's common in fact
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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:13 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems. I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.
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