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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #51  
Unread 02-23-2019, 06:57 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by BlackLioness87 View Post
Could be that the dominant planet is a dynamic thing and the hierarchy changes according to transits, progressions or "consciousness level"?

In my case I have Chiron in 10H conjunct my MC, and I currently feel very Chironic (I've been struggling with some heavy Chiron transits the last years), but it seems Chiron is not included in any dominant planet calculations :/

Anyways IMO, most aspected planets (whether or not they're dominant according to some formula) carry important meaning though sometimes it's difficult to figure this out.
Chiron, I feel like that's a significant one too oft overlooked

My most aspected planets are(counting a chiron aspect) Pluto>Uranus=Mars>Neptune>moon. Actually, all my planets end up being highly active save for Jupiter, Saturn, and Venus not counting minor aspects Pluto kinda infects the whole chart


When I do my chart analyzing, I always look at what planet rules a specific house/body. Like my Chiron is in my 12th in Leo ruled by the sun in the 11th house and I try to find the extended meaning in that. Chiron in 10th definitely sounds harsh, but I think the wounded healer always has to go through its lot to harness the ability to heal and it seems in this case your career path could revolve around healing even in an offhand sense

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  #52  
Unread 02-23-2019, 12:19 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

I'd like to further explain why I've been holding these views about Pluto as a planet and Plutonic people. I was in a bit of a bad mood the other day when I made those posts, so it may have come off to you guys as too harsh, even discriminatory. I'll begin by apologizing for saying the things I said, and please know I did not intend to offend or address anyone specifically, I only meant to express how Plutonic individuals have made my life difficult.

I'll say the fact that you guys here who are Pluto dominant / have Pluto playing a significant role in your chart are definitely more awakened than the Plutonic individuals I've encountered in my life so far. You're aware of the manifestations of this energy while the Plutonic people I've had to deal with personally and IRL were certainly not.

They've been controlling, jealous, manipulative, destructive towards themselves and towards others (including me), and absolutely frightening and unpredictable. It's like spending time around them is so draining, exhausting because it's like facing an imminent darkness, a kind of soul-penetrating darkness that I fear will consume me. These un-evolved Plutonic individuals in my life tend to simultaneously raise my fear and anger levels when I'm around them, making me feel like I can become a more frightening version of myself if really provoked by them. They're so comfortable with the dark side of life and humanity that it makes me uncomfortable, and I can feel like deep down they're laughing at me because they think I am stupid, that I live on the surface and only want simple things.

These un-evolved Plutonic individuals that I've crossed paths with, I'd say regardless of their Sun sign, have a side to them that I believe I'll never be truly able to understand. They seem to attract dangerous, volatile people and situations into their lives and eventually it integrates into their personalities, making THEM embody some of the very things they attract into their lives. As someone who has not lived through those situations, I realize I'll never be able to truly understand them. Plus the fact that they've hurt me, as some of these people I'm referring to include my mom and some relatives on her side, the planetary energy of Pluto, at least in its un-evolved and immature manifestations, has, to a degree, wounded me on a personal level.

Perhaps encounters with people who've worked through Plutonic energy will change my mind, but so far I haven't encountered any of them in my life. Maybe an evolved Plutonic individual will use the planet as a source of positive transformation and to protect others. However, before I encounter such a person, I will still hold the view that Pluto is a malefic planet, and that it really takes a lot to master it or at least control it rather than letting it control you. It's like I am so removed from most, if not all Plutonic themes in my life.


My 4 dominant planets, in descending order:
1. Venus
2. Jupiter
3. Moon
4. Saturn

Last edited by BaoSanniang; 02-23-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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  #53  
Unread 02-23-2019, 12:33 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLioness87 View Post
Could be that the dominant planet is a dynamic thing and the hierarchy changes according to transits, progressions or "consciousness level"?

In my case I have Chiron in 10H conjunct my MC, and I currently feel very Chironic (I've been struggling with some heavy Chiron transits the last years), but it seems Chiron is not included in any dominant planet calculations :/

Anyways IMO, most aspected planets (whether or not they're dominant according to some formula) carry important meaning though sometimes it's difficult to figure this out.

My mom, who has Sun Trine Pluto and Venus Trine Pluto, has 7 aspects to her Sun and 6 aspects to her Venus on top of a very tight Sun-Venus conjunction in Aquarius. One hell of an unpredictable and complicated woman, but with lots of charm that fools people into believing she's really nice and generous.

Here are her aspects to her Sun and Venus:
Sun Conjunct Venus
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Square Jupiter
Sun Square Saturn
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Square Jupiter
Venus Square Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto

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Unread 02-23-2019, 12:47 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaoSanniang View Post
I'd like to further explain why I've been holding these views about Pluto as a planet and Plutonic people. I was in a bit of a bad mood the other day when I made those posts, so it may have come off to you guys as too harsh, even discriminatory. I'll begin by apologizing for saying the things I said, and please know I did not intend to offend or address anyone specifically, I only meant to express how Plutonic individuals have made my life difficult.

I'll say the fact that you guys here who are Pluto dominant / have Pluto playing a significant role in your chart are definitely more awakened than the Plutonic individuals I've encountered in my life so far. You're aware of the manifestations of this energy while the Plutonic people I've had to deal with personally and IRL were certainly not.

They've been controlling, jealous, manipulative, destructive towards themselves and towards others (including me), and absolutely frightening and unpredictable. It's like spending time around them is so draining, exhausting because it's like facing an imminent darkness, a kind of soul-penetrating darkness that I fear will consume me. These un-evolved Plutonic individuals in my life tend to simultaneously raise my fear and anger levels when I'm around them, making me feel like I can become a more frightening version of myself if really provoked by them. They're so comfortable with the dark side of life and humanity that it makes me uncomfortable, and I can feel like deep down they're laughing at me because they think I am stupid, that I live on the surface and only want simple things.

These un-evolved Plutonic individuals that I've crossed paths with, I'd say regardless of their Sun sign, have a side to them that I believe I'll never be truly able to understand. They seem to attract dangerous, volatile people and situations into their lives and eventually it integrates into their personalities, making THEM embody some of the very things they attract into their lives. As someone who has not lived through those situations, I realize I'll never be able to truly understand them. Plus the fact that they've hurt me, as some of these people I'm referring to include my mom and some relatives on her side, the planetary energy of Pluto, at least in its un-evolved and immature manifestations, has, to a degree, wounded me on a personal level.

Perhaps encounters with people who've worked through Plutonic energy will change my mind, but so far I haven't encountered any of them in my life. Maybe an evolved Plutonic individual will use the planet as a source of positive transformation and to protect others. However, before I encounter such a person, I will still hold the view that Pluto is a malefic planet, and that it really takes a lot to master it or at least control it rather than letting it control you. It's like I am so removed from most, if not all Plutonic themes in my life.


My 4 dominant planets, in descending order:
1. Venus
2. Jupiter
3. Moon
4. Saturn
I consider myself Plutonic and I, as mentioned, have a very Plutonic family and have met other Plutonians who are extremely destructive to others and abusive. One of them is a family member. I hope my theory follows. I believe these individual feel vulnerable so they compensate by taking it out on others, targeting others. Plutonians have to make peace with their vulnerabilities and find their power despite it, but that can definitely result in very nasty manifestations. In those states, they're unable to transform, they're stricken and stuck. It's the duality, perhaps. It's about transformation, but without awareness, the Plutonian is stuck in their ways and it can be dangerous

I've recognized my own negative manifestations of Plutonian energy as well and I've really had to work on it

I know I don't apply to your original post, but I have like 7 aspects to Pluto, major, not minor. so I do believe it plays a significant part and I understand the energy. I get where you're coming from
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  #55  
Unread 02-23-2019, 12:55 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

I was abused in ways that I probably shouldn't mention here by a Scorpionic individual. He was possessive, jealous, delusional, insecure, manipulative...psychopathic, homicidal
Lowest octave of Pluto
I understand
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Unread 02-23-2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by Lykanized View Post
I was abused in ways that I probably shouldn't mention here by a Scorpionic individual. He was possessive, jealous, delusional, insecure, manipulative...psychopathic, homicidal
Lowest octave of Pluto
I understand

Well, even though this is an online forum, I'll share with you some of the things I've been told by the Plutonian people in my life, including my mom. I don't know what to say except that I know how it feels to have to put up with a person like that who's essentially a remorseless psychopath. What I've gone through may seem like nothing in your view, but it's nevertheless hurt me quite deeply:

1. My mom once told me that if I came out of her belly, if she gave me life, she has every right in the world to take it away from me if I **** her over hard enough.

2. That I am a naive, useless piece of **** who lives in a magical fairy land and is totally oblivious to the "real world" (darkness, lies, harm, deception, living on the knife's edge).

3. During my tweens I was a bit on the short side (even though scientifically speaking I was about average height) compared to the kids of some of my mom's friends. My mom told me "short people won't get married, short people won't have friends, short people will get laughed at and not get any respect." (Uh, tell that to some of the most powerful men in history?)

4. That I am a morally devoid POS because I stood up to their abusive ways and resisted, even if not too aggressively.

5. That I am a stubborn little guy who refuses to listen to any "wise words", which to them=the darkness of the world and humanity, because I am nothing like them but I should become more like them. No thank you ma'am.

6. That "nobody will ever treat you better than I / we do", that "if someone's treating you well, you must think twice and think about why they're being good towards you. Of course, we're the exceptions."

7. That I simply know nothing about the world, about life. Well, perhaps I don't know anything about THEIR WORLD, THEIR LIFE, or wait, perhaps I see them more clearly than they see themselves, and they are ABSOLUTELY NOT people I look up to. Their personality, their ways disgust the hell out of me.


8. That I am useless, worthless without them.


They live in lies, they live in deceit, they live in darkness, they tell me how bad almost everyone else is but to me people like them are part of the reason why this world's so messed up. And once again, "they" includes my own mom. They're so dysfunctional, so "off the beaten path" that it's almost impossible to get them back on track unless there's literally a Deus Ex Machina scenario in their lives. All I know is that scums and subhuman objects like them will never find peace and happiness, nor do they deserve it.

And you know what? In a strange way it's also funny to me, because the more I see the way they behave the more I know it reflects their insecurities, their inadequacies, their fears, yet they refuse to acknowledge and gain any sense of clarity on it so their self-destructive (and destructive to others) patterns continue as a cycle.

It's really true how the biggest bullies are often the weakest, emptiest, and most insecure people within. That's why they must act destructively, aggressively, and be manipulative outwardly to feel like they have something resembling a bit of control over their lives and their place in the world. I have seldom felt the desire to harm anyone for the sake of feeling a tad better about myself. I may be cold and unfriendly, even harsh towards someone when I am hurt or feeling moody, but that doesn't mean I'd actually want to harm them and go that far (though I've had fantasies).


Sorry, got a bit emotional but every one of my words is true. These people have an absence of light, of love, of truth, of kindness and goodness in their hearts. Everything to them is a game, everything to them is part of one big power struggle where the only winners they want are themselves.

Last edited by BaoSanniang; 02-23-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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  #57  
Unread 02-23-2019, 06:47 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaoSanniang View Post
Well, even though this is an online forum, I'll share with you some of the things I've been told by the Plutonian people in my life, including my mom. I don't know what to say except that I know how it feels to have to put up with a person like that who's essentially a remorseless psychopath. What I've gone through may seem like nothing in your view, but it's nevertheless hurt me quite deeply:

1. My mom once told me that if I came out of her belly, if she gave me life, she has every right in the world to take it away from me if I **** her over hard enough.

2. That I am a naive, useless piece of **** who lives in a magical fairy land and is totally oblivious to the "real world" (darkness, lies, harm, deception, living on the knife's edge).

3. During my tweens I was a bit on the short side (even though scientifically speaking I was about average height) compared to the kids of some of my mom's friends. My mom told me "short people won't get married, short people won't have friends, short people will get laughed at and not get any respect." (Uh, tell that to some of the most powerful men in history?)

4. That I am a morally devoid POS because I stood up to their abusive ways and resisted, even if not too aggressively.

5. That I am a stubborn little guy who refuses to listen to any "wise words", which to them=the darkness of the world and humanity, because I am nothing like them but I should become more like them. No thank you ma'am.

6. That "nobody will ever treat you better than I / we do", that "if someone's treating you well, you must think twice and think about why they're being good towards you. Of course, we're the exceptions."

7. That I simply know nothing about the world, about life. Well, perhaps I don't know anything about THEIR WORLD, THEIR LIFE, or wait, perhaps I see them more clearly than they see themselves, and they are ABSOLUTELY NOT people I look up to. Their personality, their ways disgust the hell out of me.


8. That I am useless, worthless without them.


They live in lies, they live in deceit, they live in darkness, they tell me how bad almost everyone else is but to me people like them are part of the reason why this world's so messed up. And once again, "they" includes my own mom. They're so dysfunctional, so "off the beaten path" that it's almost impossible to get them back on track unless there's literally a Deus Ex Machina scenario in their lives. All I know is that scums and subhuman objects like them will never find peace and happiness, nor do they deserve it.

And you know what? In a strange way it's also funny to me, because the more I see the way they behave the more I know it reflects their insecurities, their inadequacies, their fears, yet they refuse to acknowledge and gain any sense of clarity on it so their self-destructive (and destructive to others) patterns continue as a cycle.

It's really true how the biggest bullies are often the weakest, emptiest, and most insecure people within. That's why they must act destructively, aggressively, and be manipulative outwardly to feel like they have something resembling a bit of control over their lives and their place in the world. I have seldom felt the desire to harm anyone for the sake of feeling a tad better about myself. I may be cold and unfriendly, even harsh towards someone when I am hurt or feeling moody, but that doesn't mean I'd actually want to harm them and go that far (though I've had fantasies).


Sorry, got a bit emotional but every one of my words is true. These people have an absence of light, of love, of truth, of kindness and goodness in their hearts. Everything to them is a game, everything to them is part of one big power struggle where the only winners they want are themselves.
I think your attitude toward Plutonians is understandable given your experiences. It's true, these are the sad ways in which Pluto can express itself and that's also true that underlying all of Pluto's destructive expressions is pure insecurity and inadequacy. It's the very lowest octave of Plutonian expression and unfortunately it may be the most destructive of the planets to an individual who is very unaware of themselves

I've noticed that once the non selfaware Plutonian gets too far gone, they're almost living in a delusional world they've created where they are as powerful as they desire to be and thus what they do to others is warranted

It's just necessary to note that this is what happens when people are completely non self aware which seems to be strikingly common :/
'
I can feel you've gone through a lot of pain and really, discussions about the dark sides of planets shouldn't be shunned or seen as offensive. It's just the truth that if people are not selfaware, they can turn their feelings of powerlessness and inadequacy out onto the world as a coping mechanism and that's as much Pluto as all the transformation **** and everything else glorifying the planet
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Unread 02-23-2019, 07:41 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaoSanniang View Post
My mom, who has Sun Trine Pluto and Venus Trine Pluto, has 7 aspects to her Sun and 6 aspects to her Venus on top of a very tight Sun-Venus conjunction in Aquarius. One hell of an unpredictable and complicated woman, but with lots of charm that fools people into believing she's really nice and generous.

Here are her aspects to her Sun and Venus:
Sun Conjunct Venus
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Square Jupiter
Sun Square Saturn
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Square Jupiter
Venus Square Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto
It seems your mother has an "affected" Venus.

In my experience, sometimes is worst to have a soft aspect with a "malefic" planet because the other planet agree to work with that energy. If a planet is op posite or squares a malefic, it fights back the influence of the malefic" but if not... Anyway, It all depends on how "afflicted" is the malefic planet, if the malefic is in a nice house you can make the malefic work in your favor and this could propagate to the aspects it makes.

My mother has Pluto square her Moon-MC conjunction, it also squares his Saturn. Her chart also has a "talent" triangle or minor gran trine, Pluto sext Venus, Venus trine Neptune and Neptune sext Pluto. She has some issues, she also have other placements that point out she has subclinical narcissism. She's very controlling and want others to live their lives according to her expectations, she also believes that her feelings are facts. But she's a good hearted person overall. Sometimes she cheats on others but almost always she confesses her lies.

That "pathology" starts in childhood, so before judging her I try to keep in mind she is that way because she didn't get the love/attention she needed when she was a child. Her childhood wasn't that terrible (money problems were the main issue) but I guess she was more vulnerable (well, she still is). She has leo Sun and ASC and Moon conjunct MC.
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  #59  
Unread 02-24-2019, 03:50 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaoSanniang View Post
Well, even though this is an online forum, I'll share with you some of the things I've been told by the Plutonian people in my life, including my mom. I don't know what to say except that I know how it feels to have to put up with a person like that who's essentially a remorseless psychopath. What I've gone through may seem like nothing in your view, but it's nevertheless hurt me quite deeply:

1. My mom once told me that if I came out of her belly, if she gave me life, she has every right in the world to take it away from me if I **** her over hard enough.

2. That I am a naive, useless piece of **** who lives in a magical fairy land and is totally oblivious to the "real world" (darkness, lies, harm, deception, living on the knife's edge).

3. During my tweens I was a bit on the short side (even though scientifically speaking I was about average height) compared to the kids of some of my mom's friends. My mom told me "short people won't get married, short people won't have friends, short people will get laughed at and not get any respect." (Uh, tell that to some of the most powerful men in history?)

4. That I am a morally devoid POS because I stood up to their abusive ways and resisted, even if not too aggressively.

5. That I am a stubborn little guy who refuses to listen to any "wise words", which to them=the darkness of the world and humanity, because I am nothing like them but I should become more like them. No thank you ma'am.

6. That "nobody will ever treat you better than I / we do", that "if someone's treating you well, you must think twice and think about why they're being good towards you. Of course, we're the exceptions."

7. That I simply know nothing about the world, about life. Well, perhaps I don't know anything about THEIR WORLD, THEIR LIFE, or wait, perhaps I see them more clearly than they see themselves, and they are ABSOLUTELY NOT people I look up to. Their personality, their ways disgust the hell out of me.


8. That I am useless, worthless without them.


They live in lies, they live in deceit, they live in darkness, they tell me how bad almost everyone else is but to me people like them are part of the reason why this world's so messed up. And once again, "they" includes my own mom. They're so dysfunctional, so "off the beaten path" that it's almost impossible to get them back on track unless there's literally a Deus Ex Machina scenario in their lives. All I know is that scums and subhuman objects like them will never find peace and happiness, nor do they deserve it.

And you know what? In a strange way it's also funny to me, because the more I see the way they behave the more I know it reflects their insecurities, their inadequacies, their fears, yet they refuse to acknowledge and gain any sense of clarity on it so their self-destructive (and destructive to others) patterns continue as a cycle.

It's really true how the biggest bullies are often the weakest, emptiest, and most insecure people within. That's why they must act destructively, aggressively, and be manipulative outwardly to feel like they have something resembling a bit of control over their lives and their place in the world. I have seldom felt the desire to harm anyone for the sake of feeling a tad better about myself. I may be cold and unfriendly, even harsh towards someone when I am hurt or feeling moody, but that doesn't mean I'd actually want to harm them and go that far (though I've had fantasies).


Sorry, got a bit emotional but every one of my words is true. These people have an absence of light, of love, of truth, of kindness and goodness in their hearts. Everything to them is a game, everything to them is part of one big power struggle where the only winners they want are themselves.
It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.
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Unread 02-24-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.
It is very Plutonic but it's just tge lowest octave of Pluto. Pluto fears being overpowered so it can easily become insecure. It becomes obsessive because it doesn't want to be in a position where it feels vulnerable. A higher octave Pluto can drop the abuse and power games and stop acting out of their fear and insecurity
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  #61  
Unread 02-24-2019, 10:07 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

I've seen the worst of Pluto/Scorp too so I know there's nothing glamorous there
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Unread 02-25-2019, 03:47 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.
No. In my early years I was conditioned into believing it was normal, it wasn't until a very close and dear friend and older mentor of mine started helping me see the dysfunctional patterns.

Also, through my own research, I found that my mom and the relatives on her side had been / have been using some very typical emotionally abusive and manipulative tactics.



I'll give you a list of all of my mom's aspects involving her personal planets and the Ascendant. I've made another thread specifically about her but here I'll post them again:

Sun Conjunct Venus (in Aquarius)
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Sq. Jupiter (I have the opposition that's between Cancer and Capricorn)
Sun Sq. Saturn (hers is a significantly tighter square than mine)
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto

Moon Sextile Uranus

Mercury Sq. Uranus


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Sq. Jupiter
Venus Sq. Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto


Mars Sextile Neptune
Mars Opposition Pluto


Saturn Trine Ascendant


Neptune Square Ascendant


Chiron in Aries in 8th house, loosely conjunct Mars in late Pisces and opposite Pluto in late degree Virgo.


C's Chart.png

Sun in Aquarius in VI
Moon in Leo in XII
Mercury in Capricorn in V
Venus in Aquarius in VI
Mars in Pisces in VIII
Jupiter in Scorpio in III
Saturn in Taurus in IX
Uranus in Libra in II
Neptune in Sagittarius in IV (could Neptune in IV represent deceit within the household?)
Pluto in Virgo in II

Last edited by BaoSanniang; 02-25-2019 at 03:50 AM.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 04:43 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.
I respect all signs. But from my experience with Aqua people I've met two types: one has a big heart and is truly a great friend to be around, and the other think they are some kind of God with the right to tell people what to do. The latter type blows my mind especially when they have no placement/aspect that indicates close-mindedness and gigatic ego. So my theory here is that Aqua is the opposite sign of Leo, so they also carry a certain amount of pride with them. The pride is just less apparent. Leo's pride is about being the shiniest star in the group, and Aqua's pride is about being the most unique star of the group. So there's a chance that an unevolved Aqua is so proud of being different and innovative that they end up giving themselves the right to treat people poorly.


Those with strong Aqua influence, I don't mean to put you down. It's just an observation.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 06:05 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
I respect all signs. But from my experience with Aqua people I've met two types: one has a big heart and is truly a great friend to be around, and the other think they are some kind of God with the right to tell people what to do. The latter type blows my mind especially when they have no placement/aspect that indicates close-mindedness and gigatic ego. So my theory here is that Aqua is the opposite sign of Leo, so they also carry a certain amount of pride with them. The pride is just less apparent. Leo's pride is about being the shiniest star in the group, and Aqua's pride is about being the most unique star of the group. So there's a chance that an unevolved Aqua is so proud of being different and innovative that they end up giving themselves the right to treat people poorly.


Those with strong Aqua influence, I don't mean to put you down. It's just an observation.

In response to what you've posted in the thread I made specifically about my mom, if we consider minor aspects then my Sun at 11.45 degrees Cancer is quincunx my Moon at 13.55 degrees Aquarius. Apart from that, however, I do not have Uranus contacts with any of my personal planets and I don't have Neptune or Pluto being involved with any of my personal planets.

My four dominant planets are: 1. Venus 2. Jupiter 3. Moon 4. Saturn according to Pullen. Pluto is actually #12. For some reason Uranus is #5 and I think it's just because I have an Aquarius moon, but I'm not very flexible when it comes to continuous change and I can be a bit weird to some people but I'm nothing close to being eccentric.

I'll upload the synastry chart between me and my mom when it's done but I'm about to go outside soon so probably later.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 10:15 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Actually, everyone goes through that process of having subconscious blockages brought to light. Going through a process of digging through our darkness because what's there has power over us as long as we don't face it and own our darkness. That's just the trial of life. Pluto symbolizes that process, but we all have Pluto's presence in us somehow

Before I knew a thing about astrology, I was very passionate about transformation myself, facing my darkness, my truths hidden in my consciousness, learning from it so as to reclaim my power. I was also very much aligned with the 'Phoenix rising from the ashes' motif. I was very heavily involved with Plutonian themes like destruction, death, going as deep as possible, to the core, the raw core no matter how much it hurt, pain, my shadow. And I've always been very obsessive as well, especially with these concepts

But I also had Plutonian issues of control and projecting my feelings of powerlessness onto others

In all honesty, I'm very Plutonian energetically, yet I'm not sure I'd be considered Plutonian astrologically. So I do think we all are meant to go through this process. That's what growth is all about, we're not meant for stagnation. We're all meant to dig through the meat, the rotting flesh of us and bring it back to life. We're all meant to experience many little deaths and destructions so as to recreate ourselves

I do believe that's what Pluto's about. That's why people who don't do the work are likely to project their feelings of powerlessness out into the world

Before I knew anything about astrology or Pluto, I was very very passionate and aligned with Plutonian energy. But I still don't know if my chart would reflect that Plutonianism. So I'm definitely convinced we're all meant to go through that process

People have even thought I must be a Scorpio rising before. And I've been noted as having Plutonian energy, but I'm not sure if people would actually consider me Plutonian looking at my chart

So I wonder why I'd be so heavily Plutonian if it's not reflected in my tropical chart nor my sidereal chart. Actually, in sidereal, I'm a Scorpio NN, but I still don't think that accounts for how heavily Plutonian I am energetically. It just raises many questions and I truly do believe we're meant to all go through this process of delving into the deepest aspects ourselves, destroying what isn't ours and isn't real and carrying with us what is real, finding our power in the destruction, our light in the darkness

I think this is an important discussion... Perhaps we're all meant to explore the themes of every planet regardless of their presence in our charts. And Pluto is such a vital, very very human planet symbolically


This discussion is getting meaty and real, I love it
I truly believe we must all go through

I agree, thats true. Altho some go through this process more than other.
Maybe you have many squares? Or planets in 8th? Or late degree Libra or early Sag? I wouldn't say Scorpio is the ONLY energy that does that for sure, I believe all signs have that potential however Scorpio is the only one that can dig real deep. Painfully deep.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 06:56 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by BaoSanniang View Post
No. In my early years I was conditioned into believing it was normal, it wasn't until a very close and dear friend and older mentor of mine started helping me see the dysfunctional patterns.

Also, through my own research, I found that my mom and the relatives on her side had been / have been using some very typical emotionally abusive and manipulative tactics.



I'll give you a list of all of my mom's aspects involving her personal planets and the Ascendant. I've made another thread specifically about her but here I'll post them again:

Sun Conjunct Venus (in Aquarius)
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Sq. Jupiter (I have the opposition that's between Cancer and Capricorn)
Sun Sq. Saturn (hers is a significantly tighter square than mine)
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto

Moon Sextile Uranus

Mercury Sq. Uranus


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Sq. Jupiter
Venus Sq. Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto


Mars Sextile Neptune
Mars Opposition Pluto


Saturn Trine Ascendant


Neptune Square Ascendant


Chiron in Aries in 8th house, loosely conjunct Mars in late Pisces and opposite Pluto in late degree Virgo.


Attachment 79632

Sun in Aquarius in VI
Moon in Leo in XII
Mercury in Capricorn in V
Venus in Aquarius in VI
Mars in Pisces in VIII
Jupiter in Scorpio in III
Saturn in Taurus in IX
Uranus in Libra in II
Neptune in Sagittarius in IV (could Neptune in IV represent deceit within the household?)
Pluto in Virgo in II
I've known quite a few people who were verbally abused as children, and most of them thought it was normal too. That's part of what is so damaging about it. It doesn't just hurt your sense of self; it warps your reality. No parent is perfect, and most parents lose their temper and say something harsh once in a while, but I can assure you that healthy parents don't say those things you listed. There's a chance this didn't start recently and that your family has been passing these behaviors down for many generations.

If you're confident about her birth time, I think the Leo moon in the 12th is interesting. That moon doesn't like to hide, but it's in the house of hidden things. I also think blacklioness is right about her Venus.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 07:01 PM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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I've seen the worst of Pluto/Scorp too so I know there's nothing glamorous there
The people I can think of who had the most abusive and difficult childhoods are both double Scorpios. They have both done abusive things to others, particularly the man, but dressing people down verbally wasn't the way either of them did it. It was much more subtle. They both were also aware and trying really hard not to pass on their issues. I haven't paid that much attention to how Pluto plays out in people's charts who aren't Scorpios.
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Unread 02-25-2019, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I agree, thats true. Altho some go through this process more than other.
Maybe you have many squares? Or planets in 8th? Or late degree Libra or early Sag? I wouldn't say Scorpio is the ONLY energy that does that for sure, I believe all signs have that potential however Scorpio is the only one that can dig real deep. Painfully deep.
I don't think so. There's me, I'll go painfully deep. Then I've also met some very superficial Scorpionics who are afraid of any level of depth
Scorpio doesn't equal depth and isn't the only sign that provides it or depth to that journey

Scorpio the only sign that can dig painfully deep? Nah. That's in an individual. And like I said, everyone eventually has to
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Unread 02-25-2019, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
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The people I can think of who had the most abusive and difficult childhoods are both double Scorpios. They have both done abusive things to others, particularly the man, but dressing people down verbally wasn't the way either of them did it. It was much more subtle. They both were also aware and trying really hard not to pass on their issues. I haven't paid that much attention to how Pluto plays out in people's charts who aren't Scorpios.
There was and is no subtlety to the ones I've met who are abusive. The only subtlety is in trying to hide it when they get out of their moments, but the moments themselves are anything but subtle. One tried to play mind games to where he had this affected good guy but out would come the demon slowly but surely. He was a straight up psychopath amd seemed like he was trying to set up a crime scene and frame me oddly enough. But in a family of Scorpionic people(he wasn't family), none are even close to that. I actually think Scorpios have big hearts. The abusive one in my family is just controlling with anger issues and demands respect he hasn't earned. He will however terrorize people then come back as if it never happened
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Unread 02-26-2019, 01:09 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Scorpio the only sign that can dig painfully deep? Nah. That's in an individual. And like I said, everyone eventually has to
Oh no, not everyone has to. Some people run from deep diving their entire life.
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Unread 02-26-2019, 01:36 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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There was and is no subtlety to the ones I've met who are abusive. The only subtlety is in trying to hide it when they get out of their moments, but the moments themselves are anything but subtle. One tried to play mind games to where he had this affected good guy but out would come the demon slowly but surely. He was a straight up psychopath amd seemed like he was trying to set up a crime scene and frame me oddly enough. But in a family of Scorpionic people(he wasn't family), none are even close to that. I actually think Scorpios have big hearts. The abusive one in my family is just controlling with anger issues and demands respect he hasn't earned. He will however terrorize people then come back as if it never happened
You know, I was thinking after I walked away from the thread that the two people I was thinking of never had the opportunity or a reason to try to control me with verbal abuse. We weren't quite that close. And I know of some other stuff that sort of negates what I wrote.
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Unread 02-26-2019, 01:39 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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Oh no, not everyone has to. Some people run from deep diving their entire life.
I suppose so. I should say everyone eventually has to or they're gonna be excruciatingly unhappy
The only person I know who's gone decades without doing it is actually a Scorpio tho


Oddly it was also a Scorpio/Plutonian who chastised me for 'going too deep'
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Unread 02-26-2019, 01:59 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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I suppose so. I should say everyone eventually has to or they're gonna be excruciatingly unhappy
The only person I know who's gone decades without doing it is actually a Scorpio tho

Oddly it was also a Scorpio/Plutonian who chastised me for 'going too deep'
You know about the "hades moon" phenomenon coined by Judy Hall? I have a "hades moon" family with those energies heavily represented who seem to run as fast as they can from any delving beyond the surface of things. And all of them are extremely unhealthy. I've mentioned before that I was in a household with 6 Scorpio Moon at one point, and anybody who drew close also had the of Scorpio heavily represented. Someone outside of the astrological pattern once paid a visit to the house. She described that there was a barrenness and a sink hole feeling that she felt being there - "nothing can grow here".

It might not be such a surprise that the same energetic pattern that calls for going deep is also present in those who engage the opposite stance as if their lives depended on it.
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Unread 02-26-2019, 03:42 AM
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Post Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

Pluto is the planet of the taboo: shock value, darkness, controversy, sensitivity and evokes/provokes strong emotional responses. Not only it has to do with death and dying, the "heart" shaped topographic plain on the planet surface: it sure has a lot to do with romance, intimacy and sexuality. Pluto is the ruler of Scorpio which the sign is about hot tense love between two persons.

Pluto gives us the term "Plutarch" as in business corporations or moneyed elites, political parliaments or assemblies, religious clergy or church councils, and societal hierarchy or divides (the USA's difficult issues of racism or ethnic conflict, patriarchy and heteronormativity, political partisan tension, and socioeconomic classes).

I have a sun and moon in 8th (Aquarius) in the Plutonian or Scorpion house, Pluto is about an openness and worldliness of subjective science, historic theory and interest in the paranormal. In my own natal chart, my ruler planet Uranus in Scorpio (the generation born 1974-81) squares my natal sun and moon. It's gonna get interesting when you configure my ruling Aquarian planet in Scorpio.

And Pluto placements in certain signs in world history coincides with growing interest, fascination and studies of astrology; some people find that a forbidden topic due to their own personal opinions or religious beliefs in regards to the use of tracking planetary orbits, placements and transits to affect individual and society's lives on earth.
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Unread 02-26-2019, 05:00 AM
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Re: Is Pluto misunderstood?

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You know about the "hades moon" phenomenon coined by Judy Hall? I have a "hades moon" family with those energies heavily represented who seem to run as fast as they can from any delving beyond the surface of things. And all of them are extremely unhealthy. I've mentioned before that I was in a household with 6 Scorpio Moon at one point, and anybody who drew close also had the of Scorpio heavily represented. Someone outside of the astrological pattern once paid a visit to the house. She described that there was a barrenness and a sink hole feeling that she felt being there - "nothing can grow here".

It might not be such a surprise that the same energetic pattern that calls for going deep is also present in those who engage the opposite stance as if their lives depended on it.
I agree, I think I mentioned something along those lines in my massive rambling. If Pluto is about transformation, it's also about what holds us back from transformation. I believe it's possible transformation may have to do with that vulnerability and surrender, neither of which are easy for anyone. I think that's why Pluto deals so heavily with power and control. Transformation would be the highest level of Plutonic power, or rather, the state of vulnerability that allows transformation. But by no means would it be easy to achieve


I always see forces as connecting to their opposing forces, but I know I've said that a lot already. All that glitzy and glamory Pluto chic may seem sexy, but it's a point of growth. I think it's very easy for Pluto to undo its own self and to even devolve rather than transform. All defenses are up then, and everyone and everything may be perceived as a threat. No room for growth there
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