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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 02-12-2019, 02:26 AM
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Profections example: John McCain

It turns out the hardest part about profections is making sure you get the SR chart right. In prepping this lecture there were times I was literally tearing my hair out because the SR chart didn't match the events that followed. For a bit I doubted myself as an astrologer, I dobuted astrology, and wished I had had a car accident on the way to SOTA because I couldn't make it work. (Yup, I actually finished my lecture prep while I was at the conference because...life.) The only reason I tell you all this is because when I realized my error, cast the right charts, my mind was once again blown by what astrology can do.

I can't attach all of the slides, but they were mostly for talking points anyway. Basically, "Time Lord", while not a reference in this case to Dr. Who, is the name given to any planet ruling over a period of time in traditional technique. Examples other than annual profections include Firdaria, Zodiacal Releasing, and circumambulation through the bounds. There are as many "time lord" techniques as there are astrologers, but profections have meat on the bones, aren't tied down in the minutia of months or days, and are actually pretty easy to understand.

So great! But what's a "profection?" The definition according to Webster's: "obsolete; the act of progressing, a movement forward. Profections can be compared to the modern technique of secondary progressions/day for a year. Hellenistic and Arabic astrologers Profected, or "progressed" the ASC one month (bingo, the tropical zodiac is a calendar, ergo one "sign/month") for a year. This technique determines which planets and topics will be "activated" in that year.

All of which is seriously cool, but what the heck do you do with them? The first thing to understand is that they aren't read as stand alone charts (instert note here that I am talking about profecting the ASC only. Bonatti has a terrific explanation about topics and profecting houses and the angles regarding those topics, but you can't understand what he is doing with that until you get a handle on simply profecting the ASC.) Profections show activated planets. Transits to and from them show events. Like....ever had a Jupiter transit that all the "horoscope" writing astrologers said was going to be a doozy? Juipter transiting your second house will bring you wealth? Only that didn't happen? This explains why.

So, what is this wonderful, mystical, ancient technique? Counting. No, seriously. Counting.

The ASC profects to the 2nd sign/house on the 1st birthday/Solar Return. So literally count birthdays. Start at the ASC, and then count forward. Figure out which planets are activated, then cast a SR chart.

That said, let's look at John McCain. I have attached his natal chart. I chose John McCain because he passed away in 2018, and was pretty prominent in United States Politics. For those of you unfamiliar you can find his biography
https://www.johnmccain.com/
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File Type: jpg John McCain natal.jpg (50.7 KB, 7 views)

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Unread 02-12-2019, 03:46 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

]In 1967, at the age of 31 years, John McCain was shot down over Viet Nam. A SAM tears the wing off his fighter. On ejection, he broke both his arms and his hip, pulled his life vest with his teeth, landed in a pond in the middle of enemy territory and was fished out of the lake by the enemy armed with spears. He was held and tortured as a prisoner of war for 5 years. Here's the SR chart. 8th house profecton, Venus as LoY. Mercury as SR ruler.

8th house profection, Venus as LoY, Mercury as SR ruler. 7th house = open enemies. Venus is: Retrograde, combust, ruling the 12th in the SR, peregrine and in fall (who fell out of the freaking sky?) Cadent and in the SR 12th (and 5* from escaping it = 5 years as prisoner.)

Mercury, dignified and on SR ASC, but also combust.

Of other note, T-Saturn (activated) just Rx trine SR 12th cusp, with Moon conjunct.
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File Type: jpg JM SR 1967.jpg (50.2 KB, 24 views)
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Unread 02-12-2019, 09:04 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
So great! But what's a "profection?" The definition according to Webster's: "obsolete; the act of progressing, a movement forward. Profections can be compared to the modern technique of secondary progressions/day for a year. Hellenistic and Arabic astrologers Profected, or "progressed" the ASC one month (bingo, the tropical zodiac is a calendar, ergo one "sign/month") for a year. This technique determines which planets and topics will be "activated" in that year.
Valens did not use progressions the way you describe it. In the first year of infancy, and every twelve after it, all planets distribute/transmit the times to their signs and all planets within those signs. Also, the planets themselves do not move relative to the natal chart, for example if Mars is in the 2nd sign, the Asc would distribute to it in the second year, even though Mars would itself distribute to the 3rd sign and so on!

Constellations can also serve as months of calendars though, and many Asian calendars do employ sidereal years that stay in sync.
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Unread 02-12-2019, 01:55 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
]

Mercury, dignified and on SR ASC, but also combust.

Of other note, T-Saturn (activated) just Rx trine SR 12th cusp, with Moon conjunct.
I`ve just cast his natal+SR and I get something odd

I attach the chart
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Unread 02-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by dd78 View Post
I`ve just cast his natal+SR and I get something odd

I attach the chart

I`ve noticed my mistake:

I entered 1963 instead of 1936 as his year of birth


I`ve gotten very similar SR charts! At least at first sight!

It looks almost like a Freudian slip!


There are very similar configs in all of them!
And all these strongly connect to my natal, this is out of hell!

This is creepy!

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Unread 02-12-2019, 03:07 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

"Venus is: Retrograde, combust, ruling the 12th in the SR"


So are we putting the profected Asc/scorpio, as the 1st in the solar return ? i'm assuming we are with venus ruling the 12th in the SR.

But then that wouldn't place venus in the SR 12th...im confused.
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Unread 02-12-2019, 03:26 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
]
Of other note, T-Saturn (activated) just Rx trine SR 12th cusp, with Moon conjunct.
TSaturn, as exaltation lord of Libra, 8th hs natal - sign where profected AC falls,
is also in detriment and conjunct 8th SR cusp.

SO 8th hs is implied all too many times, I guess

I attach his natal+SR. This time with correct DOB

I can see Moon conjunct 12th cusp in natal chart. Why would it be important during this SR?
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File Type: jpg mccain2.jpg (117.0 KB, 4 views)

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Unread 02-13-2019, 10:13 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Valens did not use progressions the way you describe it.
Agreed, though I believe you meant "profections" and not "progressions." I gave the analogy to secondary progressions because my lecture audience was mostly versed in modern astrology. The comparison was conceptual, not equal. And while I agree that Valens didn't describe the method for using profections as I am showing, Valens is not the sum total of traditional astrology. I am rather more infatuated with the Persians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
In the first year of infancy, and every twelve after it, all planets distribute/transmit the times to their signs and all planets within those signs.
YUP

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Also, the planets themselves do not move relative to the natal chart, for example if Mars is in the 2nd sign, the Asc would distribute to it in the second year, even though Mars would itself distribute to the 3rd sign and so on!
Again we are in agreement. Since I did not suggest they did, I rather imagine that you too are trying to educate, considering the thread this spun from had most people all mixed up muddled up.

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Constellations can also serve as months of calendars though, and many Asian calendars do employ sidereal years that stay in sync.
Sure. And we are NOT having a tropical vs. sidereal debate on this thread. Been there, done that.

Now that we have established what we do and do not agree upon, can you please keep your remarks on topic, i.e. the astrology of this thread?
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Unread 02-13-2019, 10:34 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
"Venus is: Retrograde, combust, ruling the 12th in the SR"


So are we putting the profected Asc/scorpio, as the 1st in the solar return ? i'm assuming we are with venus ruling the 12th in the SR.

But then that wouldn't place venus in the SR 12th...im confused.
NO. First, I have got to apologize I was rushed the other night and just typing out my speaker's notes. So let me start over. But to answer your question, the important information we got from profecting is that 1) it's an 8th house year. The 8th has significations of death, but more so of fear, and the topics of the 8th will be accentuated this year. Think of it like this. When a profected house comes to the ASC, There will be a strong emphasis on things related to that house. 2)Venus rules the natal 8th making her LoY. Because Libra is the natal 8th, and Saturn is the exaltation ruler of Libra, Saturn is ELoY, but it is important to consider why. Exaltation is a form of rulership and figures into reception. Without turning this into a dialogue about reception, it is basically a form of "allowing" or granting permission. You can't give permission if you have no authority. 3) Because Saturn is activated, any planets in his signs natally will be as well. Here we have the Moon in Aquarius (though I would argue that because the Moon represents the body it is ALWAYS activated, but that's just my opinion.)

We don't want to do anything to change the SR chart. We just want to know who are the key planets to watch for in the SR chart. Make sense?

The mistake I made, as I said, was to post the chart and copy my notes without making sure I was reading my notes correctly. I have a type of shorthand I use...at any rate. Venus doesn't rule the 12th in the SR, though she is in it, rx, in Fall. The most interesting thing about her placement, other than that she is literally in prision, is that she IS rx, in the 5th degree. So 5 degrees until she retrogrades back to Leo. And we all know that John McCain was held as a POW for 5 years. Venus is clearly signifying that.
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Unread 02-13-2019, 10:43 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
Originally Posted by dd78 View Post
TSaturn, as exaltation lord of Libra, 8th hs natal - sign where profected AC falls,
is also in detriment and conjunct 8th SR cusp.

SO 8th hs is implied all too many times, I guess

I attach his natal+SR. This time with correct DOB

I can see Moon conjunct 12th cusp in natal chart. Why would it be important during this SR?
Remember, it's not just the SR we want to look at. Activated planets mean transits, both to and from, will cause events. On 10/26 1967, the day he was shot down, Saturn was at 7* Aries, retrograde. And Saturn HATES Aries. Bad Saturn all around. Moon we know was active, and it hit the 12th house cusp that same day. 12th=imprisonment.

He should have died. Does anyone see in the SR chart why he didn't? Big hint. Benefics in the 12th, especially if they are in sect, save from the significations of the 12th.
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Unread 02-13-2019, 11:11 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

General message to all. I may have been away for a while, but I am still remarkably familiar with the rules. Keep your comments to the topic or I will continue to delete them. No derailing conversations with side trips.

Tamara
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Unread 02-13-2019, 11:20 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Agreed, though I believe you meant "profections" and not "progressions." I gave the analogy to secondary progressions because my lecture audience was mostly versed in modern astrology. The comparison was conceptual, not equal. And while I agree that Valens didn't describe the method for using profections as I am showing, Valens is not the sum total of traditional astrology. I am rather more infatuated with the Persians.
Profection is just transliteration of the Latin word for progression, if I remember correctly.

So you are suggesting that we do not have just one type of profection, but many? Who would have guessed.
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Profection is just transliteration of the Latin word for progression, if I remember correctly.

So you are suggesting that we do not have just one type of profection, but many? Who would have guessed.
I know, right?!
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Unread 02-14-2019, 01:29 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

I forgot to mention the signification of Mercury, as ruler of the SR chart for 1967, dignified and on the ASC, though combust...escaping. By 5*. Venus as LoY for the profection year, but in the SR chart exaltation ruler of the 7th house of war. Things produced that are big, but not necessarily long lasting. Really, it comes down to symbolism.

Moving on, in 1979, John divorced his first wife and then within the next month after the divorce was final married his second, Cindy.

Here is the SR chart. I would welcome comments/thoughts before I spin out the astrology of it.
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Unread 02-14-2019, 02:40 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Welcome back, Sheriff!

Please don't delete this off-topic post. I'm reading the thread now..


Huh, now this is interesting. I remember reading somewhere, though it slips my mind, about certain planets "sleeping" so to speak in natal charts, though, an I'm not trying to cause a battle here, I think that source was Jyotish.

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Unread 02-14-2019, 03:30 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

I used to focus only on the Lord of the Year like you do, but after time I adopted the more complex approach by Valens (which isn't his, but was used earlier by Critodemus and subsequently some Arabic astrologers). Here are some results (made in advance of the post) for the 32nd year.

Quote:
Mars onto Hour-Marker is bad, especially if unfavorably placed. It brings dangers, vicissitudes in livelihood, anxiety, disturbing crises, falls and injuries.
Quote:
Mars onto Saturn causes terrible and disturbing year, lawsuits, abuse, penalties, breaches of faith, dangers, grief from family members, violent disruptive deeds, sudden dangers, enemies, illness, bandit attacks, profitless travel, injury and grief from servants. With ascending benefics, it causes minor troubles. The changeable and solid images are critical and make the results more certain. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677
The other noteworthy profections are Saturn onto Mercury and Moon onto Sun and Venus.

The 32nd year is more afflicting because Mars is activated also through the rising time of Cancer. Higher of importance chronocrators also indicate critical period, Mercury onto Sun onto Saturn by night can indicate ''dangers, inactivity, judgements, bankruptcies, enmities with elders, deaths of relatives, fearful sights and anxiety''.

Common sense is also required, one does not need profections to know that a child (7) or youth (19) can hardly suffer from flight military accident (Saturn onto Lot of Exile, Accusation and Injury in the winged sign of Virgo), or that one would suffer it again and again every twelve years.

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Unread 02-14-2019, 09:07 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
NO. First, I have got to apologize I was rushed the other night and just typing out my speaker's notes. So let me start over. But to answer your question, the important information we got from profecting is that 1) it's an 8th house year. The 8th has significations of death, but more so of fear, and the topics of the 8th will be accentuated this year. Think of it like this. When a profected house comes to the ASC, There will be a strong emphasis on things related to that house. 2)Venus rules the natal 8th making her LoY. Because Libra is the natal 8th, and Saturn is the exaltation ruler of Libra, Saturn is ELoY, but it is important to consider why. Exaltation is a form of rulership and figures into reception. Without turning this into a dialogue about reception, it is basically a form of "allowing" or granting permission. You can't give permission if you have no authority. 3) Because Saturn is activated, any planets in his signs natally will be as well. Here we have the Moon in Aquarius (though I would argue that because the Moon represents the body it is ALWAYS activated, but that's just my opinion.)
I didn't know moon was always activated. So if this is so, do we take into account any planets in the sign of cancer, and they become activated too ?
Quote:
We don't want to do anything to change the SR chart. We just want to know who are the key planets to watch for in the SR chart. Make sense?
So far.
Quote:
The mistake I made, as I said, was to post the chart and copy my notes without making sure I was reading my notes correctly. I have a type of shorthand I use...at any rate. Venus doesn't rule the 12th in the SR, though she is in it, rx, in Fall. The most interesting thing about her placement, other than that she is literally in prision, is that she IS rx, in the 5th degree. So 5 degrees until she retrogrades back to Leo. And we all know that John McCain was held as a POW for 5 years. Venus is clearly signifying that.
So his natal venus in the SR is in the same sign as his Na venus, in bad shape dignity wise, and natal venus also is opposing saturn, so this would have had a say too right ? Especially as saturn is exaltation ruler.

Venus in his SR is rx, in his natal she isn't, what would this have been implying ?

The 5 degree is very interesting.
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Unread 02-14-2019, 09:40 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Remember, it's not just the SR we want to look at. Activated planets mean transits, both to and from, will cause events. On 10/26 1967, the day he was shot down, Saturn was at 7* Aries, retrograde. And Saturn HATES Aries. Bad Saturn all around. Moon we know was active, and it hit the 12th house cusp that same day. 12th=imprisonment.

He should have died. Does anyone see in the SR chart why he didn't? Big hint. Benefics in the 12th, especially if they are in sect, save from the significations of the 12th.
I find it helps me to write down, or type out, for me to fully understand, so here we go....

Okay so the day he was shot, Tr saturn was going through his SR 7th house (enemies), moon was maybe still moving from cancer to leo, but would have hit the 12th house cusp the same day he was shot. Benefics in the 12th saved him from actually dying, even though venus, one of his activated planets was in bad shape dignity wise, and rx, and 5 degrees from moving backwards into leo, which then would bring her out of fall, hence why he was held captive for 5 years.

Now i can see where saturn is rx at 7 degrees Aries, but i can't see how saturn activated the shooting ? Im not even seeing an aspect from saturn to the 12th house cusp, its 2-3 degrees out, or is that enough for a trigger ?
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Unread 02-14-2019, 11:31 AM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I used to focus only on the Lord of the Year like you do, but after time
I adopted the more complex approach by Valens
(which isn't his, but was used earlier by Critodemus and subsequently some Arabic astrologers).
Here are some results (made in advance of the post) for the 32nd year.

Quote:
Mars onto Hour-Marker is bad, especially if unfavorably placed. It brings dangers, vicissitudes in livelihood, anxiety, disturbing crises, falls and injuries.

Quote:
Mars onto Saturn causes terrible and disturbing year, lawsuits, abuse, penalties, breaches of faith, dangers, grief from family members, violent disruptive deeds, sudden dangers, enemies, illness, bandit attacks, profitless travel, injury and grief from servants. With ascending benefics, it causes minor troubles. The changeable and solid images are critical and make the results more certain. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677

The other noteworthy profections are Saturn onto Mercury and Moon onto Sun and Venus.

The 32nd year is more afflicting because Mars is activated also through the rising time of Cancer. Higher of importance chronocrators also indicate critical period, Mercury onto Sun onto Saturn by night can indicate ''dangers, inactivity, judgements, bankruptcies, enmities with elders, deaths of relatives, fearful sights and anxiety''.

Common sense is also required, one does not need profections to know that a child (7) or youth (19) can hardly suffer from flight military accident (Saturn onto Lot of Exile, Accusation and Injury in the winged sign of Virgo), or that one would suffer it again and again every twelve years.
so Lord of Year provides some information
but for detail we fine tune with a more complex approach
as described by Valens
but used earlier by Critodemus
and then subsequently taken up by some Arabic astrologers
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Unread 02-14-2019, 02:54 PM
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Moving on, in 1979, John divorced his first wife and then within the next month after the divorce was final married his second, Cindy.

Here is the SR chart. I would welcome comments/thoughts before I spin out the astrology of it.
VEnus is in fall and combust, again
Saturn is a bit better, however.

yeah, natal chart leaves little hope for a change in some cases.


I don`t see why this chart would point to any 7th hs significations like both divorce AND marriage ?
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Please correct me if I`m wrong with the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Mars onto Hour-Marker is bad, especially if unfavorably placed. It brings dangers, vicissitudes in livelihood, anxiety, disturbing crises, falls and injuries.

OK, so to translate it into contemporary English:

"Mars onto Hour-Marker" = natal Mars profected to natal AC

"especially if unfavorably placed" = if Mars is in an unfortunate house in natal chart, like 6th in case of McCain`s .


Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Mars onto Saturn causes terrible and disturbing year, lawsuits, abuse, penalties, breaches of faith, dangers, grief from family members, violent disruptive deeds, sudden dangers, enemies, illness, bandit attacks, profitless travel, injury and grief from servants. With ascending benefics, it causes minor troubles. The changeable and solid images are critical and make the results more certain. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677
"Mars onto Saturn" = Mars profected to the natal house where natal Saturn resides .
Does it work both ways, e.g. if natal Saturn profected to natal Mars, than the above delineation can be used?

Many of these interpretations give conflicting or confusing information without examples of how the technique works.



SO in general, this technique of profecting chart is very similar to the turning of chart and using of derived houses in Horary?

Interpretation is another thing, as given in the article:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3988...tGDZFMXQzydeqz

Am I right?


Quote:
The 32nd year is more afflicting because Mars is activated also through the rising time of Cancer.

Can you explain it, please?

Last edited by dd78; 02-15-2019 at 01:09 PM. Reason: added sentence
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
I find it helps me to write down, or type out, for me to fully understand, so here we go....

Okay so the day he was shot, Tr saturn was going through his SR 7th house (enemies), moon was maybe still moving from cancer to leo, but would have hit the 12th house cusp the same day he was shot. Benefics in the 12th saved him from actually dying, even though venus, one of his activated planets was in bad shape dignity wise, and rx, and 5 degrees from moving backwards into leo, which then would bring her out of fall, hence why he was held captive for 5 years.
Well done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Now i can see where saturn is rx at 7 degrees Aries, but i can't see how saturn activated the shooting ? Im not even seeing an aspect from saturn to the 12th house cusp, its 2-3 degrees out, or is that enough for a trigger ?
Anything within 3* degrees does count. This is considered being "struck by a ray."
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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Originally Posted by dd78 View Post
I don`t see why this chart would point to any 7th hs significations like both divorce AND marriage ?
Mercury rules natal 7th. Look at where Mercury is and who he is with in the SR.

I would also point out that there is a heavy emphasis in the SR chart on the second (his second wife was uber rich) which is the natal 7th.

It's always handy to use an ephemeris, since we are considering not just what happens in SR charts, but also why transits to and from activated planets produce events. In April of 1980, the month John got divorced, T-Mars stationed at 25*Leo.
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
Welcome back, Sheriff!

Please don't delete this off-topic post. I'm reading the thread now..


Huh, now this is interesting. I remember reading somewhere, though it slips my mind, about certain planets "sleeping" so to speak in natal charts, though, an I'm not trying to cause a battle here, I think that source was Jyotish.
That may well be. I think of it more as a possible explanation as to how cadent planets are only operative at certain times.
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Re: Profections example: John McCain

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I used to focus only on the Lord of the Year like you do, but after time I adopted the more complex approach by Valens (which isn't his, but was used earlier by Critodemus and subsequently some Arabic astrologers).
Quite. But when first learning, one needs to understand how to crawl before one can run. But grasping the basics, and seeing them work in charts, students can branch out into more complex methods.
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