Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Traditional Astrology

Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 01-24-2016, 11:06 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

The reason (as stated by Robert Schmidt circa 1994) that 30 and 150 are not properly called aspects is because you have a blind spot in your left eye that prevents Aquarius from being seen and a blind spot in your right eye that prevents Capricorn from being seen. That's because the Moon represents the left eye (Cancer) and the Sun the right (Leo). (forget about sex differences here because this is a demonstration of a schematic).

The 30 degree relationships are also not visual rays because adjacent signs are hard to see because they're sitting right next to you. All aspects are a form of looking phenomenon. Note that "aspect" and "spectacle" have the same root. The other cancellation of aversions stated earlier are part of the other 4 senses of the cosmic soul (part of Schmidt's early material first released around 1998) on testimony within the context of the "cosmic courtroom".

Note that if you cast rays out of each eye, that there are 7 rays (one for each planet) to the even and odd signs. This is part of the Greek optical theory that Schmidt talked about around 1994 at the Back to the Future conference in Princeton, NJ.

Aspects are currently thought of as a combination of a pair of planet interactions but this is not quite correct. That is because when a planet casts a ray toward another planet, that planet doesn't see the same thing that the other one does. For instance when Venus looks at Saturn, she see's a dirty old man, but when Saturn looks at Venus, a beautiful young woman. That makes a huge difference in delineation because when the courtroom asks about marriage and the guest-host relationship is invoked, the lord of the 7th has the job of asking the other planets for witness testimony. Do you think that Venus is going to say the same thing as Saturn? No. You need to break down the testimony or you'll get vague generalizations.

__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
amaranthinefall (01-25-2016), Cap (01-25-2016), Dirius (01-25-2016), HoldOrFold (01-25-2016), IleneK (01-26-2016), JUPITERASC (01-24-2016), Rawiri (01-25-2016), tsmall (01-25-2016), waybread (01-25-2016)
  #2  
Unread 01-25-2016, 12:05 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,320
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Really helpful, Curtis. Thanks.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 01-25-2016, 12:13 AM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Note that Valens says that the sextile aspect is the weakest. Ask yourself how sharp your perhiperal vision is compared to looking straight on at something. Even more so the 30 degree angle. This doesn't mean that 30 and 150 degree angles don't have meaning. They're called aversions and it has a very important role in defining the effects of the various testimonies from the planets upon a given topic whether it is a lot or a house. Planets that cast rays into a given house have something to say about that house depending upon the type of ray cast and the nature of the planet doing the "looking". Then if "called to witness" by the domicile lord, that testimony is brought forward as being of higher weight. When a planet is called to witness about a topic by the domicile lord, but can't cast a ray into the subject matter, it may offer an opinion based upon it's own nature or abstain from comment. Also a planet casting a visual ray into the subject matter, but not called by the domicile lord to witness due to an aversion is like testimony that's never heard by the courtroom and causes it to be less influential when it has the times as a time lord.

The effects of these planetary relationships are activated when they become time lords. So if your 7th house is ruled by Taurus and Venus is the one calling to witness, when other planets become time lords and cast rays into the topic in question, one is more likely to see concrete manifestation. Until then they remain psychological impulses that remain dormant within our character.

For instance, I have spirit in Capricorn with Saturn present. So for 27 years I did various tasks but suffered from torpors and inactivity, but had an interest in astrology from an early age. When Leo had the times around 1973 I was studying astronomy because Leo had the Sun and Saturn was in aversion. This means that there was a break in my actions (spirit) and I was diverted away from a lowly subject (Saturn). But when Virgo had the times is when I started studying astrology and got my first text from my mother (How to Chart your own Horoscope by Ursula Lewis). That activated Mars which was also the exaltation lord of the Capricorn general times. Many people didn't like it at the time (least of all the Syracuse Astronomical Society). There was almost an exact trine between Mars at 23 Virgo and Saturn at 25 Capricorn, but they were malefics which made the times more difficult. But I was largely left alone in this pursuit and when the subject came up, largely ignored.

After the 27 years finished for the times went to Aquarius 4th which is where Jupiter is and the south node (SN = the past). This was when I started gaining traction in astrology and really started to advance in understanding. Saturn had the general times but was in aversion with cancellation of aversion due to like engirding status. The Sun, Mercury and Moon cast rays into the place and Jupiter being present without the rays of malefics intervening show the nature of the general times. When the Sun took up the times at L2 the first time, Zodiacal Aphesis was released (which was a foreshadowing period). The Capricorn sub of Aquarius general times was when Saturn was reactivated (Schmidt calls this the encounter of the domicile lord focus period). It brought all of the other subjects into completion so that I could begin writing Delphic Oracle. Then in 2005 at the loosing of the bond, it gained widespread recognition as the only windows program for Hellenistic astrology activating that Sun in Leo 10th house. So one could say that my 30 years period of Aquarius 4th with Jupiter has been about uncovering old secrets (4th) in astrology (Aquarius - Jupiter, SN). When the 10th was activated by ZR spirit Sun in Leo, it had the testimony of the Moon (ruler of 9th) and the lot of exaltation showing that a spiritual teacher (Schmidt) had a lot to do with that success. The following period was represented by Mars in Virgo (this is when controversy and jealousy showed itself) because Mars was contrary to sect.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
amaranthinefall (01-25-2016), Cap (01-25-2016), HoldOrFold (01-25-2016), IleneK (01-26-2016), JUPITERASC (01-25-2016), tsmall (01-25-2016), waybread (01-25-2016)
  #4  
Unread 01-25-2016, 12:27 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post

The effects of these planetary relationships are activated when they become time lords.

So if your 7th house is ruled by Taurus and Venus is the one calling to witness,
when other planets become time lords and cast rays into the topic in question,
one is more likely to see concrete manifestation.
Until then they remain psychological impulses that remain dormant within our character.

So when Moon precisely conjoins Taurus 7th House
then
would it be fair to say
that when other planets become time lords
and cast rays into the topic in question
then presumably Moon would be "a perpetual background witness" on that topic
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-25-2016 at 06:58 PM. Reason: for clarity altered the post heading to specify "Aversion"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 01-25-2016, 12:28 AM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Hello Curtis, what a treat to see you here!

Just for clarification sake, for those who may be unfamiliar, you are talking about zodiacal releasing from Spirit, correct? I wonder if this post deserves it's own thread...

Tamara
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #6  
Unread 01-25-2016, 12:36 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

Hello Curtis, what a treat to see you here!

Just for clarification sake, for those who may be unfamiliar, you are talking about zodiacal releasing from Spirit, correct?

I wonder if this post deserves it's own thread...


Tamara

Great idea if the above post by Curtis
were, in the interests of clarity,
extrapolated
so as to form an OP on a separate thread
with the title to include the word "Aversion"
and then we can focus specifically on that concept
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-25-2016 at 06:59 PM. Reason: for clarity altered the post heading to specify "Aversion"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 01-25-2016, 02:54 AM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Hello Curtis, what a treat to see you here!

Just for clarification sake, for those who may be unfamiliar, you are talking about zodiacal releasing from Spirit, correct? I wonder if this post deserves it's own thread...

Tamara
Yes. ZR Spirit. I didn't want to talk about aspects without showing how they fit into the time lord scheme. Ellen Black had an excellent example in the chart of John Kerry with his beseiged Moon. As long as his Sun was turned on as a time lord, it broke the beseigement, but when it was turned off the Moon was left to fend for herself (in regards to the 2004 election).
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #8  
Unread 01-25-2016, 03:04 AM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

I might post here more often, but I find the blue background harder on my eyes.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #9  
Unread 01-25-2016, 03:13 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post

I might post here more often,
That would be great, thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post


but I find the blue background harder on my eyes.

maybe wear sunglasses? Or type it all out then copy and paste it? Just a thought


__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 01-25-2016, 09:13 AM
HoldOrFold's Avatar
HoldOrFold HoldOrFold is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 446
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post
I might post here more often, but I find the blue background harder on my eyes.
If you use Firefox, there's an addon called "Color That Site". It allows you to change a site's colours and automatically applies the colour setting whenever you visit that site. For a white background and black text, after installing the addon to firefox, just navigate to this site, slide the black/white slider to the left for background and right for foreground and click save. Or you can play around with the colours to suite your taste.
__________________
Free detailed midpoint calculator with aspects and interpretations
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to HoldOrFold For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #11  
Unread 01-25-2016, 02:00 PM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post
I might post here more often, but I find the blue background harder on my eyes.
If you scroll to the bottom of the page, on the left hand side is a drop down box that defaults to "futura." This box gives options for forum "skins." There are two options that eliminate the blue background. hth.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-25-2016), Kitchy (01-25-2016)
  #12  
Unread 01-25-2016, 05:25 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
So when Moon precisely conjoins Taurus 7th House
then
would it be fair to say
that when other planets become time lords
and cast rays into the topic in question
then presumably Moon would be "a perpetual background witness" on that topic
There's the doctrine of participation in Antiochus which says that if the domicile and exaltation lord both see the place in question (such as Taurus), that they both have influence over the subject matter. The question becomes then what to do if neither do, and it says that one is supposed to find the "joint domicile master". The joint domicile master is that planet that is domicile lord of the sign that is trine to the place in question that is preferably of the sect in favor. So for Taurus, either Virgo (Mercury) or Capricorn (Saturn). If neither of these can see the place in question, it's thought to be bad for the subject matter (maltreatment). This is found in Schmidt's translation of the lost Antiochus, 2009.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
IleneK (01-26-2016), JUPITERASC (01-25-2016), tsmall (01-25-2016)
  #13  
Unread 01-25-2016, 05:27 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: A kid born in early 60's learns astrology from a Traditionalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
If you scroll to the bottom of the page, on the left hand side is a drop down box that defaults to "futura." This box gives options for forum "skins." There are two options that eliminate the blue background. hth.
Thanks.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 01-25-2016, 05:29 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

BTW, Schmidt said that the joint domicile master appears to have come before the concept of trigon lords which later took its place.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
IleneK (01-26-2016), JUPITERASC (01-25-2016), tsmall (01-25-2016)
  #15  
Unread 01-25-2016, 05:49 PM
amaranthinefall's Avatar
amaranthinefall amaranthinefall is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 88
Re: The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

What thread did this originate from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post
Note that "aspect" and "spectacle" have the same root. The other cancellation of aversions stated earlier are part of the other 4 senses of the cosmic soul (part of Schmidt's early material first released around 1998) on testimony within the context of the "cosmic courtroom".
So do the mitigating factors strengthen "sight"/aspects that aren't in aversion, eg Gemini and Virgo? Or does "hearing", etc. remain separate? If so, how do the other sense relationships effect the signs/planest differently?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 01-25-2016, 06:31 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

There's no statement to that effect that I've ever seen in the texts. It seems more likely the opposite because blind people state that their other senses become more sensitive, so more likely the reverse if anything.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
amaranthinefall (01-25-2016), JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #17  
Unread 01-25-2016, 06:34 PM
zoidsoft's Avatar
zoidsoft zoidsoft is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 84
Re: The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

For instance like engirding would be considered a cancellation because the same lord hears both and therefore is privvy to the details of both subjects as judge.
__________________
http://www.astrology-x-files.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to zoidsoft For This Useful Post:
amaranthinefall (01-25-2016), JUPITERASC (01-25-2016)
  #18  
Unread 01-25-2016, 07:06 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: The origin of the Traditional concept of "Averson"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post

There's the doctrine of participation in Antiochus
which says that if the domicile and exaltation lord both see the place in question (such as Taurus),
that they both have influence over the subject matter.
The question becomes then what to do if neither do,
and it says that one is supposed to find the "joint domicile master".
The joint domicile master is that planet that is domicile lord of the sign that is trine to the place in question that is preferably of the sect in favor.
So for Taurus, either Virgo (Mercury) or Capricorn (Saturn).
If neither of these can see the place in question, it's thought to be bad for the subject matter (maltreatment).
This is found in Schmidt's translation of the lost Antiochus, 2009.

Makes sense
i.e.
for example for Taurus
currently under discussion

then
if neither domicile nor exaltation lord of the place see the place in question

then
unless either Mercury or Saturn or both
can see the place in question
then "nothing gets done" aka maltreatment - many thanks
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
averson, concept, origin, traditional

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.