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  #1  
Unread 05-05-2015, 01:34 AM
pbouk pbouk is offline
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Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Hello,
There are a couple of things going on in my chart that are a bit puzzling to me. I think I have a Grand Cross in fire, but I'm not quite sure (some charts show only three 'sides').
I addition to some insight into the grand cross/ rectangle, I would be curious how you would read my chart with respect to career or relationships. I'm have been trying for some time to move towards a more creative path, (I am a librarian now), but I'm finding it hard to fully intuit what that path might be (ie. writing, or something more of 'service', which would make sense given my 6th house placements). I've also struggled a lot with self-doubt (yes, the highly saturnian influences probably gave that away...) that seem to really make it hard to connect with others at times. I'm drawn to deeper, more emotionally profound relationships, but find it hard to find others who want the same. I can find work interactions and chit chat quite draining.
I'm married, but was alone for some time before I met my husband.
My chart is attached..I appreciate your thoughts.
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Unread 05-05-2015, 03:38 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

I meant to say ii think I have a cardinal cross, and a mystic rectangle in fire.

Would love to hear anyone's perspective on any aspect of the chart that seems striking.
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Unread 05-05-2015, 06:05 PM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

I'm reposting my chart, hopefully it's easier to read now.

My sixth house planets are confusing for me, and I'd be grateful to hear from others who have similar placements, or anyone at all, of course (I'm a novice astrology student). Having experienced a series of health problems/sensitivities over the last 5 years I think Chiron might be part of it..and perhaps the planetary arrangements involving Aries recently are to blame too! But I'm wondering what Jupiter and Mars in Aries in the sixth can actually do... It's such a fiery placement for both planets and both trine Neptune, so I feel like I have scattered, yet diminished energy to work on 6th house things. I would also like direct energy to other things, such as creative non-fiction writing, but I'm not quite sure how to do that....possibly because the cross in my chart keeps redirecting my energy elsewhere?
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Unread 05-05-2015, 08:02 PM
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Smile Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Indeed your chart layout indicates a lot of energies working at cross purposes, causing polarity and contradiction which can also cause difficulties with decision making. While your Capricorn Moon might fit well with library work, we can see how this would be stifling to your personal development due to boredom and routine; your psyche cries out to do something more exciting and inspiring to channel all that fiery energy you have to express. Leo MC and Sun [ruler] in Gemini, both make for restlessness and the need to be moving around, or at least experiencing more than just working for a paycheque. Management and promotional work could be indicated through Leo, which definitely stimulates creativity and drama as well, thus Gemini Sun and Mercury could prove helpful in the writing of novels or children's book where the imagination can be set free. Jupiter in Aries can be expansive in storytelling and also relates to publishing, as the ruler of the 2nd H.

At first glance, your Sun/Neptune opposition might be seen as a detriment, yet it can also represent untapped creativity waiting to be utilized, also possible due to Uranus as the ruler of your 5th H in a nice trine to Mercury.
How do you perceive Neptune as an influence in your life? Opposing the Sun can indicate a degree of foolishness, naivete or deception, however that can be useful in playacting and characterization in occupations such as theater or children's entertainment. With Jupiter pulled into Neptune's web, humor, wit and mirth might suit your ability to be like a chameleon, so I wouldn't rule out acting as well. After all we are all but actors on the stage of life anyway, and that may be a talent you could tap into.

Your problems with self-doubt are associated with the afflictions of Jupiter with Sun/Moon and Venus. Venus/Saturn also relates to self-esteem issues and perhaps shyness and awkwardness are really the things that are holding you back from truly expressing your true essence, which can be especially troublesome in relationships as well.

Mars in Aries shows that you may need more physical action involved in what you do though, so you need outlets for that as well. NN in the 1st H tells me that your personality is very much a part of what your journey in life is all about. Don't let fear cause you to hide your inner light in whatever path you choose. I sense that writing, and especially play-writing, or even acting may be right in line with your talents and abilities. Think in terms of children's entertainment as well as part of your Leo inheritance.
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Unread 05-05-2015, 09:28 PM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Thank you kimbermoon!
Yes, the fiery part of me seems to feel stifled all the time really, I think it's partly because I have pluto in the 12th...I often have the strange sense that I have too much force, or fire, and I can't work out how to express it appropriately. I don't think a strict Catholic upbringing helped. And of course my cap moon wants stability, not change and adventure.
I still struggle with depression and a need for solitude (12th house) - I feel writing helps me work through this.
How do you suggest connecting to the 12th house pluto and uranus? is it through the rulerships of the houses (ie 5th and 1st)?
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Unread 05-06-2015, 12:50 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

In answer to your question about Neptune - I'm not sure how it works in my life. I think I need a lot of solitude to connect with it, although I suspect if I wasn't doing the job I'm doing (very data oriented) it would be more present. I've been told I'm creative, and I seem to attract creative people in my life (and are drawn to them), however I don't come from a creative family, and I have never considered myself creative until recently. With Saturn and capricorn affecting my third/9th houses, I suspect it will be a slow process.
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Unread 05-06-2015, 07:50 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Yes the rulerships do factor into the equation. In my own experience with Scorpio rising and ruled by Pluto, life for me has always been very intense and I have felt for most of my life that I have lived from one crisis to another with very few breaks in between. Pluto is about the process of transformation and soul growth, but what does that have to do with being the ruler of my ASC?, This house is all about personality and self-expression, but what does Pluto demand from us in regards to that house? How does one go about transforming our 'personality after all?

Through a long journey of awakening, I have finally come to realize that indeed I have had to change my personality through many variable circumstances, for I am certainly a changed person from who I started out to be. But that is so for most people, so what?
I can only quantify it be a matter of degree of consistency; whether it be the occasional crisis that holds you down for brief periods, or whether it is ongoing and consistent barrage of gut-wrenching traumas that might bring others to their knees. This is how it feels with a Scorpio Rising as I have learned; Our only badge of honor will be whether we can become a victor over strong adversity, or surrender to always being a victim. I like the word 'regeneration' more than transformation for use with Pluto: will the sensitive one inside the self die within the caccoon, or will it endure enough to be able to rise again like the Phoenix from the ashes? That is the inherent challenge and it is certainly not meant for wimps or weaklings.

Let's face it people, judge us by the way we project ourselves out into the world and individuals use variable different 'cloaks' to put on in the outside world, which is often very different from the true essence that is within. Taking it a step further, the question is how will your experiences color your personality over time.
How will adversity affect you in your ability to interact with the world?
Will you become embittered, resentful and angry and thus present a rather wicked, intimidating, secretive, seething outer personality, out to get revenge on whoever crosses their path? Or will you learn to adapt, integrate, accept and forgive, and still be able to express the loving, caring, nurturing side of your true divinity within?
Scorpio especially needs to learn about balance between the inner and outer selves. Our inherent lessons are about 'Mastery of the self and control of the emotions' thus we frequently encounter challenges through others involving 'power and control' issues; these then can become our primary adversaries that we are apt to encounter in the outer world; thus you must become capable of fighting the dragons of the world and you must become highly resilient and able to resist defeat.

It is about never surrendering, becoming strong and demonstrating self-mastery, by being in the world but not of it. These are the things I have learned about the Scorpio Rising.
Transforming ourselves is essentially more important than trying to change the world, so to speak, and that dynamic is I think a primary focus in terms of Pluto's rulership over the ASC.
Also, for you, Uranus ruling the 5th is about urging you to release your 'creative talent' that is by divine right; that however is not restricted to just 'using the arts', per say, but creativity can, and often must, be applied to the mere act of living itself. Something worth thinking about.
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Unread 05-07-2015, 07:44 PM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Hi, I try to stay out of this particular forum as for the unorthodox, non-traditional form of Astrology I practice but I couldn't help but become intrigued by the configurations you have in your natal chart. I have a Harmonic/Mystic rectangle and a Grand Cross incorporated in my own natal chart.

You definitely have a Harmonic Rectangle although I place the point in Sagittarius in the 6th degree being the midpoint between the N. Node and Neptune. Most of the Traditionalists will probably say there is no conjunction there between the two but from much experience dealing with various matrices in natal charts I have found that what appear to be incomplete or weak points such as the one you have there are made stronger by the focus of the other astrological influences. Picture an old fashioned distributor on a carbureted engine and one of the points being a bit askew. the engine does still fire and run, albeit not as smoothly and efficiently as it would in that one point were perfectly aligned. When transiting influences do pass through that 6th degree, watch out, you're firing on all four cylinders and have got your self some real get up and go horsepower.

I find your Harmonic Rectangle of particular interest, though, as for the fact that one of these rectangles is a potential Grand Sextile aka a Star of Solomon {Magen David some will prefer, especially our Jewish friends}. When there are two influences transiting over the 7th degree of Aquarius and Leo {please note that your Sun is in the 7th degree and Mars in the 6th by proper Zodiacal degree nomenclature. The degrees are numbered one through thirty, not zero through twenty nine, as is often the misunderstanding} Those two degrees in Aquarius and Leo just happen to be the placement of the North and South Nodes of the Moon in the natal chart of the United States. They also happen to be the placement of my natal Moons' Nodes, except that mine are reverse that of the U.S. They are also two prominent degrees in a number of natal charts that belong to some personal friends of mine. The USA's North Node is in Leo and {...I really hate to breach this subject in this particular sub forum, but here goes...I will keep it minimalist...} as I am an astrologer that works with and places a great deal of emphasis on the Sabian Symbols, I will tell you this about that degree in Leo and the one in Aquarius, they are very powerful symbols. For one thing they do heavily influence us Yanks and the symbol for the one in the 7th of Leo is of constellations in the night sky and is about enduring archetypes. The one in Aquarius is a symbol of a person being born out of an egg, the Hiranyagarbhaya {Sanskrit} as the late, great, 20th century astrologer, Dane Rudhyar like to identify it as. It's a symbol of the birth of global man. So don't get that mixed up with what some of our politicians are promoting as "the New World Order", it is of the American past not our future...as I keep trying to tell everyone.., those that emerged at the time that founded this nation.

It's been awhile since I worked with his chart but I'm pretty sure that I remember it happens to be where former presidential candidate Mitt Romney's Part of Increase and Benefits is. The 7th of Leo on the other hand happens to be where Barrack Obama's Part of Increase and Benefits is.., but unfortunately for us Yanks it also happens to be where Bill Clintons Part of Innocence or Naivete is also and as the North Node indicates where ones' relationship to prevailing social trends lies and ones attitudes and use of opportunities, and especially where opportunities for increase lie, Bill Clinton's naivete to the precept indicated by the symbology of that degree led to his getting this nation into NAFTA which has killed the economy by putting an entire generation mostly out of work and destroyed the guilds as trades knowledge was not passed from one generation to the next. So when there are transits over those two points simultaneously by transit but especially if it should happen by natal chart progression, what you have is a very active Grand Sextile for a spell and that matrix is the matrix found in the natal charts of people with the right idea and the management skills to implement them and they have the ability at organizing the work force needed and the management skill to motivate them and get it done.
Now, it is not a life long aspect from there after but one of great opportunity for a period of time and if by progression it will be an extended period of time.

I have Pluto and Neptune involved in my rectangle too, but I also have the Moon, Saturn {conj Neptune} and Venus and Mercury {conj. as like your Neptune and N. Node} My Moon is also exactly conj. my I.C. and Pluto within a three degree conj to my M.C. Thus I have a knack for being intuitive as to implementing transformative spiritually aligned projects and ideas and the ability to communicate to others about them. What I see in your rectangle is somewhat along those same lines, only more oriented towards philosophy, brotherhood and growth in all areas which is due to the Jovian influence and with that Sun [Ego] and Mars [physical drive and desire] involved you could be a real powerhouse in something that will incorporate all those planetary influences.
Why I got so into explaining about those politicians and the USA chart is that you may have some sort of rapport with American society in that as an outsider, but one whom is a product of a British originated society like our own, what you may have to communicate, if writing or acting is for you, could go over real well here in the States. You may have a keen eye for what our country needs to know or hear.

I calculated for your Part of destiny and it comes out to be at 23* Sag. 09' which has the symbolism of the bluebird of happiness perched on a cottage gate, The bluebird is a symbol of happiness, but also it refers to what one might call a spiritually oriented mind as to which the color blue relates, especially when a 'bird' is mentioned. A cottage is normally a part of a community, and the implication is that its inhabitants are well-adapted, either to the life of the community, or to their’ more or less isolated togetherness.
Your Part of Fortune in the 29th degree f Taurus is dealt with a rather difficult symbol for many, myself included, to interpret but it also happens to be the Part of Hyleg for the USA and it is a symbol of two cobblers working at a table and basically, as feet symbolically represent understanding , what is implied here is that you will produce your most fortuitous circumstances when you utilize your mind, your understanding of the two fold nature of things as it is impossible to fully understand anything except when its opposite is taken into consideration what that gives you is the ability to gain perspective and a true perspective becomes the foundation upon which to build a new approach to life.

The symbolism for your North Node is about [and I will quote Dane Rudhyar here, from his book "An Astrological Mandala", which covers the 360 different degree symbols] "...but the type of abstract or religious thinking normally related to the zodiacal sign, Sagittarius, also implies a special kind of 'fire'. It is a fire that burns the 'now' of natural living in order to build a greater 'tomorrow', It is future-oriented It aspires to produce a
greater, wider civilization, even though it finds its roots in the harvest of mankind’s past. Comradeship and group activities are implied, but the togetherness is one of fighting spirits."

So given that you have that Harmonic Rectangle here, what with Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto... the dream you have of transforming the world into a society built upon a philosophy of brotherhood and cooperation that grws greater and greater almost effortlessly, that is what you should be putting your energy into, whether it be writing or acting or whatever the other members here, like Kimber Moon has suggested, as I'm not as adept as figuring that out as members such as the likes of her... what I do best is determine and explain what the divine precepts that one is oriented towards are.
The Grand Cross you thought you had is but only a 'T Square' but I have a few threads on how to work with and resolve those. Basically you have to determine where the focus is and try to implement the symbolism found for that degree the focus is on. For you that is likely the 16th degree of Libra and what that symbolically indicates ...and I will quote Rudhyar one more time...[ibid.] "The need to keep in operation steady links between the vast Unconscious and the ego-consciousness ... be wary of the danger inherent in venturing far away from the consciously defined and socially structured ways of life. Such adventures may indeed turn destructive."
So that dream of transformation of society you likely have, you need to remember to "keep it real", as we Yanks like to say. Don't drift out too far from shore. Pace yourself and give your self planned periods of rest in any venture or task you take on. That will keep you centered.

If you wish to know more about Sabian Symbols and how to implement them and integrate them into traditional astrology, may I suggest getting to know one of your fellow Aussies, Lynda Hill. She is on facebook, has a twice monthly email newsletter and does natal chart reading and can provide any coaching or such if you feel a need to seek such out. She is a lovely person, whom I've never met personally but have been in correspondence with for the last eight or nine years. She has the accolade of being the worlds living authority on the Sabian Symbols. {I say "living" because, personally, I believe Rudhyar to have been the greatest ever but we will probably never see the likes of anyone as like Dane again....but please don't tell her I said that, if you do so happen to look her up, thanks.}

Good luck to you and may God Bless. ptv

p.s. you have got some strong quintile action going on in your chart. Don't necessarily count it out that there isn't such an influence between your Moon and Uranus as they are both bi-quintile to your Sun and that matrix just might fire up once in a while from transit influences and progressions. Also I noticed that you have all the players from your Harmonic Rectangle involved in quintiles every which way except for Mars and Pluto, awesome. Look for semi quintiles and tredeciles [aspects of 36* and 108*] astrodienst won't point them out, you have to search for them your self. The are quite auspicious as to what they provide and I noticed that you have a Sun-Saturn novile and a Jupiter-Sun septile... I've never seen a set up like that before, you should probably look into that.
I said enough, I probably have invoked the ire of a few of the traditionalists at this point, so I must go.
Cheers!
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Last edited by piercethevale; 05-07-2015 at 07:59 PM. Reason: changed "do drift" to "don't drift too far..."
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Unread 05-12-2015, 01:07 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Thank you kimbermoon, sorry not reply til now, I've been ill. I like your description of Scorpio ascendant and I think I understand it well, I've only just realised this is my ascendant so it's been interesting to read more deeply about it and to see how it resonates with my personal experience-obsessiveness and crises figure all too often! I agree that self transformation is the key and looking within not outside for strength and power. My husband is also a Scorpio, albeit a pretty gentle one - he is very deep and shows great strength, so I think I have a good role model.
Uranus ruling my 5th does give me some hope that I can creatively and intuitively find my way out of some of my confusion. With all my Caden's houses I'm realiseing I just need to do more and stop pondering ( one of my favorite things to do of course).
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Unread 05-12-2015, 01:21 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Thanks piercedthevale for such an amazing response! I feel very inspired, and it's interesting to hear you have a similar configuration. Did it take you some time to understand and connect with your strengths?
I'm still making sense of it all, but wanted to tell you I am living in the states, and a friend recently said, with regard to a piece of writing I showed her, that she thought I could do just as you said - offer observations about American vulture with the benefit of the other cultural lens.
My sun moon midpoint is in libra, and yes I do think there is a need for more connection to libra in my life, it also rules my 12th house! Thanks for the tip about the fellow Aussie, I'll read some more about her. Yes, the quintiles are interesting I'm still trying to understand the Saturn/Neptune one but iquintiles seems to be literally a blend of the traits of the two planets, so caring, idealistic but also earthy and constructive, I suppose!
I'll look into the others too.
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Unread 05-17-2015, 09:39 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbouk View Post
Thanks piercedthevale for such an amazing response! I feel very inspired, and it's interesting to hear you have a similar configuration. Did it take you some time to understand and connect with your strengths?
I'm still making sense of it all, but wanted to tell you I am living in the states, and a friend recently said, with regard to a piece of writing I showed her, that she thought I could do just as you said - offer observations about American vulture with the benefit of the other cultural lens.
My sun moon midpoint is in libra, and yes I do think there is a need for more connection to libra in my life, it also rules my 12th house! Thanks for the tip about the fellow Aussie, I'll read some more about her. Yes, the quintiles are interesting I'm still trying to understand the Saturn/Neptune one but iquintiles seems to be literally a blend of the traits of the two planets, so caring, idealistic but also earthy and constructive, I suppose!
I'll look into the others too.
You are welcome and it was my pleasure, pbouk.
I find that is awesome that someone has already made that observation and suggestion to you as my hunch to get involved with your thread in a forum I try to shy away from was apparently the right decision for me to make.

You should seek out the book "Astrological Aspects. A Process Oriented Approach" by Dane Rudhyar and Leyla Rael {Leyla was Dane's fourth wife and eventual widow and also presently the legal heir to his works. The book, I believe, was next to the last one that Dane published before his death in 1985 and the only book Dane ever co-authored.} In that book Dane and Leyla cover all these aspects I mentioned, including the septile and novile.
He noted and made and extensive observation as to a Sun bi-quintile Moon, and Sun bi-quintile Uranus, aspects in the natal chart of Franklin Roosevelt..although they were using a time of 8:15 pm ro the day He was born and astrotheme's website says the time of birth was 8:45 pm. Also Dane and Leyla were using a G.P.S. one minute of Longitude further north and the chart for F.D.R. they published in their book has an Asc. of 18* Virgo 20' and an M.C. at 16* Gemini 12' whereas the chart astrodienst produces for that time, and one less minute of Longitude, is an Asc. at 17* Virgo 22' and an M.C. at 15* Gemini 11". I'll attach that chart from astrodienst for you to see if you care to.

As to such a configuration as like F.D.R. had Dane would say that your natal Sun seeks it's opposite, it's compliment, which is at 06* Sag. 19' and it has two options to do so through bi-quintile aspects and may choose to do so through Uranus in Libra or the Moon in Cap, which, now that I notice, just had Pluto conjunct it in January and that exact same degree in the 14th of Cap. is where my niece's natal Venus is and the Pluto in her newborn sons' chart {born this past Jan. 7th... and if you are interested in a rather bizarre story as to her pregnancy, the events concerning the conception and day of delivery ...the boy was born on the same day of the year that my late mother died on in 2011... here's the link: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=80243 }

If you do acquire Dane and Leyla's book and read what they have to say about septile and novile aspects you'll find that the Sun being both novile to Saturn and septile to Jupiter that you have been awaiting for a certain period of time in your life to bust out of your shell and plant those seeds you've been collecting all your days up till then. As like being reborn but keeping what you thought of value from the past and planting it for the future ...and in your case a gift for all humanity to share, as for the fruits of what it is that you have planted and, hopefully, for many years after your passing.


As to Saturn Neptune aspects, I can tell you from my own experience as I have natal Saturn at 22* Libra 17' and natal Neptune at 21* Libra 53', which is a very close conjunction that it does bestow the ability to master the act of meditation. It does produce a very quick study as I achieved on my first attempt what some yogis are unable to obtain on their own ever after a lifetime of trying, i.e. what the Vedas identify as "Samyama".
The relationship between the two planets should bestow upon you a degree of maturity of spiritual insight and compassion based on practical experience. It also will also allow you to utilize Neptunian inspiration in way that is practical and the bi-quintile...if you have the sensitivity to attune to it, which i would have to believe that you do,... will allow you to develop creative powers that find unique ways to overcome obstacles to make that dream a concrete reality and find the optimism you need if things standing in the way of that creation start to look dark and ominous.

Noviles, according to Dane,,,, often indicate a mandate given the person from God that will gestate and be born during their life as the number 40 is so associated with gestation and birth.

I wish you the Eternal Light and Love of God be yours endlessly if you so choose to put your efforts towards a greater world and human society.

I wish you good luck and peace all the same, regardless.
ptv

attached Franklin D. Roosevelt's birth chart according to Dane Rudhyar and Leyla Rael's data and astrodienst's computer ephemeris
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File Type: jpg Franklin Roosevelt Rudhyar's data.jpg (116.6 KB, 2 views)
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Unread 05-17-2015, 10:06 AM
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Re: Grand Cross / Mystic Rectangle?

Wow...after I posted the above I realized I made no further mention of that complement your Sun seeks in it's opposite degree, the 7th degree of Sagittarius. Then it struck me that that is the location of the natal arabic Part of Mother for the U.S.A's natal chart (the "Zero Hour" chart. i.e. 12:00:01 am July 4. 1776, Philadelphia, Penn.)

Transiting influences and anything from your natal chart progressed conjunct this degree will be the times when this double bi quintile will become quite an influence on you and in those times of voidness, you can stimulate it by knowing what the Sabian Symbol for that sign and degree is... [a Sabian Symbol is a Divine precept illustrated through symbology]... I hope you're ready to receive this ...but I will trust the process as I always do, "The lessons are there when we need them"

From Dane Rudhyar's book, "An Astrological Mandala"'
(please note that in the following text that Danes ref. to a "cricket game" is in reference tot the previous degree and its Sabian Symbol)

"SAGITTARIUS 7: CUPID KNOCKS AT THE DOOR OF A HUMAN HEART.

KEYNOTE:
A stirring-up of individual longings for romantic love.

In contrast to the preceding, this symbol refers to what one might call a personal initiation through an ideal love. Far from being related to social value, ideal love tends to exalt individual characteristics in that it glorifies what seems able to fill poignant and often unconscious needs. Such a love is a projection of the anima or animus Images which in a sense complement the outer character of the one who loves. It is a subjective event which tends to bring to the lover a crisis or emotional chaos. Such a love often turns asocial if not antisocial and is blocked or frowned upon by society.

This second stage symbol is in direct opposition to that of the 'cricket game'. Intensely romantic love knows no rules and ignores collective purpose or dictates of reason. Yet it may bring to the individual an intensity of feeling which no group togetherness can arouse, at least at the ordinary social level. What is implied is a challenge to
EMOTIONAL REBIRTH."


It is what Dane identified as an "Emotional/Cultural" symbol and needs to be implemented, or manifested. in that manner.
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