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  #1  
Unread 04-23-2014, 09:48 AM
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What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Hello,

I dabbled with electional astrology recently, and as expected, I am confuzzled.

So I am here to ask: those of you with experience in elections, what is your basic procedure for choosing times? Quotes from traditional authors would be greatly appreciated, including but not limited to:

Dorotheus
Hephaistio
Sahl
Masha'allah
Johannes Schoener

...and so on.



Thanks.

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  #2  
Unread 04-23-2014, 04:53 PM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

I don't have time to quote just now, and I can tomorrow if you'd like, but fortifying the Sun and the Moon and their lords is pretty standard for early Hellenistic astrology. In fact, that is attributed to Petosiris and Nechepso who also implore us to also look at the ASC and the 10th sign for the influence or placement of benefics or malefics. The application of the Moon is the future, the separation the past, and Fortune being testified to by benefics is good, malefics bad. I also remember Dorotheus wanting us to look to the angular signs in much the same fashion with the ASC the person needing the election, the 4th sign the outcome.

As I said, I can provide references tomorrow if you'd like.
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Unread 04-24-2014, 04:00 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Hello Konrad,


No problem. I am not exactly in a rush.

Yes, Dorotheus talks about the angles as well. From reading half of Book V yesterday, I find that the basics is the Asc sign's qualities, the Moon sign's qualities, the Moon's lord strength, placing the Moon and the benefics on the angles and avoid placing malefics on angles, and avoid corruption and maltreatment of the Moon.

The problem is putting them together and making a complete reading! xD
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Unread 05-13-2014, 03:56 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Konrad,

It's been awhile. May I have some quotes if you're not too busy to post it? Thanks
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Unread 05-13-2014, 07:34 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Well it seems like you have Dorotheus, all i can really add is a small part i outlined above about the sun and moon, the quote won't add much. I have a free day tomorrow, i will do it then.
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  #6  
Unread 05-13-2014, 03:15 PM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

I can give you a procedure with modern horary astrology which subsumes electional. But since you've posted this question here in traditional, and specifically asked for authors that most people don't have(nor do I), and that are difficult to read due to their language, I cannot.

If you repost the question in Horary, I would be happy to respond.

Asking someone to do the research for you in a very narrow vein of traditional astrology is probably going to limit the number of people who can or will have the time to respond at the level you want.

If JupiterASC has not responded, then I'm not sure who can.... here. You might try Skyscript forum(http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/index.php). The whole forum is MOSTLY about traditional astrology and those people actually enjoy reading the authors that you asked for. As JupiterASC has stated, they have other forums that are not traditional, but mostly only traditional astrologers go there. When I've commented on something in the other forums, no one ever responds.

Last edited by Zarathu; 05-13-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 04:10 PM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Hi Larxene, sorry to interject, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene
The problem is putting them together and making a complete reading! xD
Where exactly are you finding your stumbling block? Where are things starting to not make sense?
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  #8  
Unread 05-14-2014, 09:12 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
Konrad,

It's been awhile. May I have some quotes if you're not too busy to post it? Thanks
From The Astrological Record of the Early Sages in Greek, p18: On Inceptions, quoted by Julian of Laodicaea

Quote:
The divine Petosiris speaks as follows when discussing inceptions: examine the Sun and the Moon and the rulers of both, and the Horoskopos and the Midheaven, and examine upon which of the said places the Moon and its ruler stand. If the ruler of the Moon should be on a decline while the Moon itself is upon a pivot, the matter will be brilliant in the first period, but it will not have an ending similarly bright. For, the beginnings of everything will be taken from the Moon, the endings from its ruler. And if the Moon should be in a decline while its ruler is upon a pivot, the matter will have beginnings which are troublesome and tardy, but endings which go well and are steady. When the Moon and its ruler are in pivots, they indicate the matter will go well from beginning to end. If the should chance to be in declines, the opposite. When the ruler of the Moon happens to be in the post-descensions, he says the matter will be long delayed, but it will come to completion. Also examine the separations and applications of the Moon; for when separating from a benefic, the matter does not go well except for a slave who is considering running away. But when applying to a benefic,it indicates the outcome of a matter will be good; to a malefic, base. Also it is necessary to examine the future from the applications, the present or past from the separations. Examine the Lot of Fortune as well. If it is testified to by benefics, it indicates the ending will be good; if by malefics, bad.
Just as an aside, this passage is interesting as it highlights the function of the benefics and the malefics. In the example above, the Moon separating from a benefic is bad other than if a slave wants to escape. This shows that the benefics are not "good" and malefics "bad", but that the benefics tend to promote unity and continuation while the malefics promote disharmony and severance or denial.

Last edited by Konrad; 05-14-2014 at 09:14 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 05-14-2014, 09:56 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Thank you, Konrad and Zarathu.


Kai,

My problem is prioritisation, especially when the time-frame for doing things is limited.

Let all else be equal;

1. Exalted Moon but Lunation vs Domicile Moon but Maltreatment (e.g. square from Mars retrograde): which one would you choose?
2. Exalted Moon but cadent vs non-dignified Moon but angular?
3. Moon in Cancer in square with Mars retrograde vs Moon in Taurus opposite Saturn retrograde?

These are simple 2 vs 2 examples; in reality we have to deal with complex decision making like 4 vs 4 and more. How would you guys approach the problem?

I have a tentative framework right now; I would just like some opinions...maybe you guys have a prioritisation system where one factor is more important than another, ceteris paribus.

Ultimately, I guess the best teacher for this is experience, which I am slowly accumulating.



Thanks again Konrad. Dorotheus mentioned the same thing about the Moon and its ruler. I also understand the part about benefics and malefics; however, I would note that for many things in life, unity and continuity is preferred.

I suppose taking a more qualitative approach is better than taking a quantitative approach here; I am currently working under a qualitative framework, but a quantitative one is always compelling.

EDIT: Also interesting is the lack of mention of dignities; but I think this was taken for granted by ancient writers. I think for them, it was obvious that dignities is always better than no dignities.

Last edited by Larxene; 05-14-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 05-14-2014, 10:52 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
I can give you a procedure with modern horary astrology which subsumes electional. But since you've posted this question here in traditional, and specifically asked for authors that most people don't have(nor do I), and that are difficult to read due to their language, I cannot.

If you repost the question in Horary, I would be happy to respond.

Asking someone to do the research for you in a very narrow vein of traditional astrology is probably going to limit the number of people who can or will have the time to respond at the level you want.

If JupiterASC has not responded, then I'm not sure who can.... here. You might try Skyscript forum(http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/index.php). The whole forum is MOSTLY about traditional astrology and those people actually enjoy reading the authors that you asked for. As JupiterASC has stated, they have other forums that are not traditional, but mostly only traditional astrologers go there. When I've commented on something in the other forums, no one ever responds.
Thank you for the kind comments, which are much appreciated, although I hasten to highlight that I am no expert on the subject of astrological analysis

Skyscript, although obviously not "the be-all and the end-all"
does offer a FREE basic Horary astrology study resource/course
which may well be illuminating for beginners
who are learning the IMPORTANCE OF THE MOON in horary
as that's also a useful basic understanding to have when creating an Electional chart.


By the way, to be clear
Skyscript does host Modern astrological discussions
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8165

Skyscript DWARF PLANETS DISCUSSION http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...ight=asteroids

Incidentally, several of our members are well-informed on Electional
including dr. farr and Culpeper
but not unexpectedly, it is likely that many members may not as yet have viewed this thread -

meanwhile
from my observation
Kaiousei no Senshi is thorough,
as well as knowledgeable

and

Konrad is equally thorough and well-informed
and provides useful and thoughtful comments

and Konrad has responded in some depth to this question

comments by these members
are soundly based on knowledge, understanding AND experience

keep in mind that members have busy lives away from our forum
and respond as and when there is time
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Unread 05-14-2014, 04:00 PM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Hi Larxene,

Interesting questions. If you've already looked through your time frame and identified a few potential times, then you're going to have to decide a few things from there. How important is lunar phase to you and your election? Is there a way to mitigate the Moon with benefic placements on angles? Can you at least make the afflicting aspects separating?

Perhaps you can share the purpose of the election, the place from which it will occur, and the time frame and we can all work through it together?
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  #12  
Unread 05-17-2014, 04:57 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Okay, let's try some examples.


Election #1: College Entrance Exam

Background: The native wants to find an appropriate date to take the test so that he will have the highest chance of passing. Note that in his natal chart, it has been highlighted that there will be educational problems this year, mostly in the form of a regression due to the Annual Lord being retrograde, angular by quadrant house and dominating the 9th from a right aspect.

The nativity is a diurnal birth.


I have selected two charts from the range of dates and times given (kept confidential):

1A:




1B:





Notice that in both cases, I placed a dignified and benefic planet right on the Ascendant, in order to accentuate the beneficial effects. I chose Cancer as the Ascendant mainly because Jupiter was exalted there, and the native was born in the day.

With Chart 1A, the positive parts are that Jupiter, Venus and the Moon are all exalted, in houses that aspect the Ascendant beneficially. Only Venus is cadent. The negative parts are, the Moon is opposite Saturn retrograde and is applying to it, the Moon is combust and is probably considered in its New Moon phase (lunation), Mars retrograde is in quartile aspect with the Ascendant, and Saturn's 12th Part is in Cancer.

Additionally, Mercury is combust, which is not favourable for most scholastic matters.

In Chart 1B, the good parts are that Jupiter is exalted, the Moon is in her domicile, and both are angular on the Ascendant. Venus, although in detriment, is also angular by sign in the Midheaven. Mercury may still be considered combust, but my experience is that when it is at least 8 degrees apart, it stands a chance of being visible briefly in the morning.

The minus parts: Mars retrograde is angular and in quartile with the Ascendant (and with that, the Moon and Jupiter). Saturn's 12th Part is in Cancer. Venus is in detriment. Venus and Mars in opposition.


Perhaps one of the deciding factors for me was this: in 1A, the Moon signifying the beginning is exalted and succeedent, but afflicted by the Sun and Saturn. The end is signified by Venus, also exalted but cadent. Whereas with 1B, the Moon signifies both the beginning and the end. She is in her domicile and angular. Although afflicted by Mars, a quartile has less power than co-presence and opposition.



The factors that I give primary considerations to, based on my brief reading of Dorotheus are: placement of benefics and malefics, angularity (especially the planets on Ascendant and MC), the condition of the Moon and its Lord. However, I am not sure whether I am prioritising correctly.

Based on these factors, I chose chart 1B. Secondarily, it is also because 1B has less problems.

The native passed the exam. The experience was pleasant, but there were episodes of forgetfulness; after the exam the native left his calculator somewhere and lost it thereafter.





That's all for this election. I may post a second one later.

Last edited by Larxene; 05-17-2014 at 05:12 AM.
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Unread 05-17-2014, 05:39 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

(Following, although adhering to oldtime Western electional methods, is nothing more than an illustration of how I would have elected between these 2 charts)

-I would have found the Lot of Success (ascendant+Jupiter-Part of Fortune) and then worked out indications as follows:

Chart 1A
LOS falls @ 5 Cancer
a) in the first house = +
b) conjunct (by sign) exalted Jupiter and the Part of Fortune = + (Jupiter is also the lord of the whole sign 9th house in this chart)
c) elevated above the malefics (Mars, Saturn) = +
d) sextile (by degree) an exalted Moon (which is lord of the ascendant) = +
e) sextile (by degree) the Sun = +
(POS is 6 degrees from Mars square, which for me is outside the orb and therefore I do not count a square by Mars to the POS)
Total = +5
(IF one were to count as effective the square of Mars to the POS, total = +4)

Chart 1B
LOS falls @ 19 Taurus
a) in the 11th whole sign house = +
b) conjunct (by degree) generic education significator Mercury = +
c) elevated above the malefics (Mars, Saturn) = +
d) receives sextile from 9th house significator Jupiter (exalted in Cancer) = +
d) Saturn in partile opposition to the POS = -
Total = +3

Therefore I would have elected chart 1A (with a total of +5 factors over chart 1B with a total of +3 factors-or, if counting a Mars square to POS in chart 1A, totals would be +4 factors for 1A vs +3 factors for 1B-so I would still have chosen chart 1A)
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Unread 05-17-2014, 06:33 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Hi Larxene

Quote:
Perhaps one of the deciding factors for me was this: in 1A, the Moon signifying the beginning is exalted and succeedent, but afflicted by the Sun and Saturn. The end is signified by Venus, also exalted but cadent. Whereas with 1B, the Moon signifies both the beginning and the end. She is in her domicile and angular. Although afflicted by Mars, a quartile has less power than co-presence and opposition.
I agree with your analysis and also that you chose the best chart between the two you offered here. Even if the Moon is afflicted by the Square of Mars, she can at least dominate the aspect, be in her domicile, and be further bonified by the presence of Jupiter. It is too bad that you couldn't have gotten it just separating, but you can only do so much.

I must also say I enjoy how the angles ended up in moveable Signs. I agree that exams are best gotten over with quickly.

Quote:
The factors that I give primary considerations to, based on my brief reading of Dorotheus are: placement of benefics and malefics, angularity (especially the planets on Ascendant and MC), the condition of the Moon and its Lord. However, I am not sure whether I am prioritising correctly.
In Bonatti's texts (I am not sure if you are studying his works or are solely choosing to focus on the Hellenistic authors), he tends to list a serious of perfect placements, but ends most of the sections with some saying like "However, if you cannot have all of these, at least have the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon well-placed". That may give you some hint as to the order of prioritization. I also know that in the magical texts afflictions to the Moon are mitigated by the placement of benefics, which would seem to agree with what Bonatti is suggesting.

That being said, I find the only people who can criticize and election are those who can find a better one and it seems like you chose the best out of the time you were given.
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Unread 05-17-2014, 10:34 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
That's all for this election. I may post a second one later.
It seems like you chose the best one of the two. I'd like to add that Mercury made his evening appearance in most places I have had time to check between the 3rd of May and the 7th of May. Him making an evening appearance can only be good for his matters. You did well to avoid the first one too as I don't think the Moon would have appeared until sunset that day and a cadent ruler wouldn't have been ideal.
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Unread 05-18-2014, 04:00 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Thank you, everyone!

Kai, from a qualitative perspective, it does make sense to prioritise the Moon and its Lord. For the Moon signifies the beginning and the Lord the end. If these two are in bad conditions, the beneficence of the other planets and the signs can only make the badness of the beginning and end slightly better, but the end result is still bad!

Konrad, yeah, I mean evening appearance in this case. I am too used to observing morning appearances, and not observing sunsets.

dr. farr, thank you for your reading. I do not work with the Lot of Success, as it is not mentioned in the texts I am reading. Where did you get this Lot?
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Unread 05-18-2014, 04:01 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Regarding the Lot of Success in the 2 charts: while both charts indicated success (since net indications were + in both) I found it interesting that, with chart 1B actually having been chosen as the election, the OP mentioned that, although the exam was passed successfully, there were some"...episodes of forgetfulness" and that after the exam"...the candidate left his calculator somewhere and lost it thereafter" Now in the elected chart, Saturn (attributed to the subject of memory, eg by Culpeper) is in partile opposition to the Lot of Success; for me, an interesting "coincidence"...

Last edited by dr. farr; 05-18-2014 at 04:18 AM.
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Unread 05-18-2014, 04:03 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post

dr. farr, thank you for your reading. I do not work with the Lot of Success, as it is not mentioned in the texts I am reading. Where did you get this Lot?
As I remember, its in Paulus (Greenbaum edition*)-certainly in Abu Mashar, and later authors (eg al-Biruni, Bonatti, etc)


(* this edition, taken from Paulus by way of Olympiodorus, gives 97 Lots, which-according to Greenbaum and others-played an important role in Hellenist astrological delineations)

Last edited by dr. farr; 05-18-2014 at 04:06 AM.
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Unread 05-18-2014, 07:01 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Election #2: College Classes Registration

Background:

The same native from the first election wants to register for his Semester 1 classes. One semester lasts three months. He will have to register again to attend classes in the subsequent semesters. However, to complete the degree it will take a few years, as usual.


The question here is, will it be alright to elect a moveable sign as the ASC? If I elect fixed signs, both benefics will be cadent, and I am guessing that planets have more power than signs. If I elect common signs, the benefics will be succeedent; about average in power.

At the same time, the registration is only for the Semester 1 classes, which only lasts about three months; a relatively short period. So I still prefer to have a moveable sign on the ASC, especially since I can get both benefics on the angles.


Let's look at the potential charts:

2A:




2B:





Mercury is cadent in 2B, so I tried to elect the same day but an earlier time. However, he told me that while he can go there at that time, he would be registering with the door


In 2A, the Moon is cadent by quadrant, but angular by sign. She is in her own decans, but I am not sure whether that counts as dignity or not. Her Lord is Jupiter. He is angular by quadrant but succeedent by sign, and is exalted in the 11th. The main issue is that the Moon and Jupiter are averse. This combination means that the beginning is about average, while the ending is above average.

The Ascendant is a common sign, so is in between moveable and fixed. It is also a crooked sign, which makes the completion of the task faster. Its ruler, Mercury, is elevated in the 10th sign, but is cadent by quadrant. Mercury is in its domicile. The Ascendant is within 1 degree from the fixed star Alkes, of the nature of Mercury/Venus, which I would assume is favourable for education (especially since Mercury is in the 10th sign).

The other plus points are that both malefics are weaker due to house placement and they are not dominating any important planets. Venus is angular by quadrant but succeedent by quadrant, although in detriment.

The minus points are: the Moon is not that well placed. Saturn's 12th Part is in Gemini in the 10th quadrant, opposing the Moon by sign. Most important is the aversion between Jupiter and the Moon, as well as between Jupiter and the ASC ruler.


In the second chart, 2B, the Moon is in Pisces. She is the participating trigon lord; again, I am not sure if this is dignity. She is succeedent by quadrant, but cadent by sign. Her Lord is Jupiter again, but this time, Jupiter is angular in the 1st, and is exalted. The beginning will be roughly similar to the first chart, or at most slightly inferior, but the ending will be better in the second chart.

The Moon and Jupiter are not in aversion here, but rather are in a favourable trine and mutual reception relationship. Venus is angular, although in detriment, and is with the Part of Fortune.

Saturn is not a problem in this chart because it forms no hard aspects with the relevant planets.

The negative side of this chart includes: the Moon is cadent by sign and is in a common sign. This is one of the forms of corruptions that Dorotheus advises us to avoid (however, because the domicile lord is in such a favourable position, I think this problem will be mitigated).

Mercury is in the 12th, which is not favourable for matters of education. It is however, direct and visible, as well in its domicile. Complicating this is the fact that Saturn's 12th Part is in Gemini.

The ASC sign is moveable, so there is a risk of the native not completing his classes. The ASC sign is also a straight sign, so matters will be slower than with the first chart. The opposition between Venus and Mars may be a slight problem, but since Mars is weaker in this combination, I am not as concerned with it.



In the end, I prioritised the position of the Moon's Lord and the Moon, and I chose the second chart. The event has not yet happened, we will have to observe the next four months to see the effects of this election.
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Unread 05-19-2014, 04:41 AM
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Re: What are the basic steps for traditional elections?

Chart 1:
-subject = 1st house = Vrigo = Mercury
-9th house (college significator) = Taurus = Venus
-Venus detrimented in Aries, but conjunct the POF = net neutral testimonies
-Mercury elevated in 10th house in own sign = +
-Mercury flows by body away from educational institution significator Venus = -
-Descending Node posits the 9th house (educational institutuion house) = -
-Waning Moon = -
-subject (Mercury) is in patile sextile to edicational institution significator Venus = +
Net: -1

Chart 2
-subject = 1st house = Cancer = Moon
-educational institution = 9th house = Pisces = Jupiter
-Jupiter is posited in subject's house (1st) in exaltation = +
-subject (Moon) is posited in educational institution house (9th house) and flows by body toward educational institution significator Jupiter = +
-POF is in the 10th house of success, near conjunct the MC, and subject Moon flows by body toward the POF = +
-Jupiter flows by body away from the POF = -
-Jupiter applies to a trine to Saturn (Saturn = long term commitants, "permanence" etc) = +
-Waning Moon = -
Net: +2

I too would have chosen the second chart as the most favorable election...
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