Schizoid

[Rebel Uranian]

For those of you who don't know what it means, it's not schizophrenia:

1. Psychology . of or pertaining to a personality disorder marked by dissociation, passivity, withdrawal, inability to form warm social relationships, and indifference to praise or criticism. (Dictionary.com)


Out of sheer curiosity I've been trying to figure out what indicates it on a chart. I'm sure all the learned astrologers (especially with all the psychological ones) here would have a good idea like they do with all matters of personality. Confirming any hypothesis from a bunch of schizoids' charts is another matter entirely, because there's really no way we're going to get a scientifically sized sample considering there aren't really any famous schizoids.

Of course the planets and signs to look for are the ones associated with the symptoms. It might have a lot to do with Neptune since the simplest definition I've heard is "the prioritization of fantasy over reality" which is really the cause of all the other symptoms. Trad and Vedic would have different answers, maybe having to do with Venus and Saturn.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

For those of you who don't know what it means, it's not schizophrenia:

1. Psychology . of or pertaining to a personality disorder marked by dissociation, passivity, withdrawal, inability to form warm social relationships, and indifference to praise or criticism. (Dictionary.com)


Out of sheer curiosity I've been trying to figure out what indicates it on a chart. I'm sure all the learned astrologers (especially with all the psychological ones) here would have a good idea like they do with all matters of personality. Confirming any hypothesis from a bunch of schizoids' charts is another matter entirely, because there's really no way we're going to get a scientifically sized sample considering there aren't really any famous schizoids.

Of course the planets and signs to look for are the ones associated with the symptoms. It might have a lot to do with Neptune since the simplest definition I've heard is "the prioritization of fantasy over reality" which is really the cause of all the other symptoms. Trad and Vedic would have different answers, maybe having to do with Venus and Saturn.

Actually, RU, I think that trad would have it more to do with Moon and Mercury, and then whether or not the native had a plethora of well dignified planets....and how those planets were afflicted in the chart vs. what they expected in life.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rosenthal,_Richard

[Rebel Uranian]

I'm going to go back and bold the words "it's not schizophrenia", in fact it (SPD) is not even considered psychotic by anyone, or even a disorder by some people. Wikipedia page.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

I'm going to go back and bold the words "it's not schizophrenia". Wikipedia page. More people would probably be interested in this thread if it was schizophrenia.

He wasn't schizophrenic. That's the point.

[Rebel Uranian]

At the bottom of his page:

"

• Diagnoses : Psychological : Schizophrenia (Believed he was a messenger from God)

• Passions : Criminal Perpetrator : Homicide single (Beat and dismembered wife)

• Family : Relationship : Stress - Domestic violence (Abusive to wife)

• Family : Parenting : Kids -Traumatic event (Son died just hours old)

• Diagnoses : Psychological : Psychotic Episode (Delusions)

• Family : Parenting : Kids 1-3 (One son)

• Passions : Criminal Perpetrator : Prison sentence (Life sentence)

"

Also can you click the Wikipedia link? I'm using the clinical definition of schizoid, as in SPD.

[actio]

Professional psychologists have trouble making this diagnosis, let alone connecting it to person's chart. It's not a very clear-cut disorder. Strongly introverted people get misdiagnosed with it. But good luck

[gen6k]

there are famous people with every kind of disorder. its just that DSM is relatively new terms, and it usually doesnt have to do with their work directly.

you might want to try to look up "famous asexual people"

this "asexual" tag might be different from aspergers for example because aspergers just has trouble with certain cues and they enjoy being pedantic. sometimes they do want to communicate with others.

well when nikola tesla just chills in some corner of society and starts imagining all these things, but doesnt want relationships is kinda different maybe.

then when issac newton goes to college, and decides to be a researcher he just stays at the library the whole time and reads books.


lady gaga is a schizophrenic or was. her first song has the lyrics "half psychotic sick hypnotic" then she makes all these overblown music videos. cause she smokes too much weed or cocaine.

she does have mercury square uranus in the 6th. Saturn in 6th. uranus rules the 9th and saturn rules the 8th. saturn opposite chiron in the 12th. sun square neptune. dipositor of neptune is saturn.

einstein is more quasi-aspergian i think he had two wives. bill gates as well hes pretty social in a pedantic computer talk.

[Vagabondgirl]

Yes, its a personality disorder. Usually the diagnosis is made if it gives you problems in everyday life and in social settings, in relation to others. There are some criterias for diagnosis, you can read it in ICD-10 classification. PDin general give emotional and behaviour problems. It is possible to have psychotic episodes and delusions in personality disorders without it having to be schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is with more bizarre delusions and disturbance in thought form and content. Also you can look for it in ICD-10 if you are interested. Its estimated that 1% of the world population has schizophrenia. More people tend to have personality disorders. I recognize myself in many of these PD's, but it doesnt mean I have any of them. Its not exactly logical that I would have all of them

[Moog]

Got any charts?

[Rebel Uranian]

Not totally confirmed ones. Lightrider, a member here, tested positive on a random test, but that isn't the most reliable way to tell. I fit the DSM criteria (and more than the minimum,), but there's still a considerable amount of error there. We could use the charts of dead people like Newton, Tesla, Kafka etc. but even if we get a semi-rigorous sample size we don't have a reliable way to confirm dead people as having most mental disorders.

[Moog]

Assigning such diagnoses seems like a fuzzy science at the best of times.

We could always look for traits of the disorder in charts of suspected cases.

i.e. disregard for social interaction.

[Rebel Uranian]

I can't post any suspects at the moment.

Edit: Now I can.

[Rebel Uranian]

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=4090
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3660 (this loads a pixel for me.)
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kafka,_Franz
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tesla,_Nikola
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Newton,_Isaac

Kafka's is pretty useless until someone can rectify it (it'll still have an X-rating... also astro.com probably doesn't realize how Freudian "X-rating" sounds). I'd also prefer to have more alive/non-famous people, so if anyone is (unlikely) or knows (even more unlikely) a schizoid, step up.

Edit: I've heard some people say Vonnegut before, but I can't figure out where they got that idea. If anyone knows post it.

[Moog]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=4090
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3660 (this loads a pixel for me.)
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kafka,_Franz
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tesla,_Nikola
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Newton,_Isaac

Kafka's is pretty useless until someone can rectify it (it'll still have an X-rating... also astro.com probably doesn't realize how Freudian "X-rating" sounds). I'd also prefer to have more alive/non-famous people, so if anyone is (unlikely) or knows (even more unlikely) a schizoid, step up.

Edit: I've heard some people say Vonnegut before, but I can't figure out where they got that idea. If anyone knows post it.

Having a look at Tesla.

First interesting thing to me, is Jupiter. As a jnana (knowledge) karaka, domiciled in the 12th house, ruling the 9th. And with Rahu, who rules electricity, according to Indian sources. He must have been tapping some freaky extra dimensional spiritual source.

For exercise, Tesla walked 8 to 10 miles per day. He squished his toes one hundred times for each foot every night, claiming that it stimulated his brain cells

that's brilliant. 12th house is the feet.

I'll get to something relevant soon, maybe, I've got a busy day, but I'm totally into Tesla now.

There is a schizoid forum I used to frequent (I have lots of aspie/schizoid/social anxiety traits), maybe I could interest some of the users of that forum in a study.

[gen6k]

what about grigori perelman, or some other cornered mathematician.

kafka was a manager for a factory he has too many people skills.

also when reading things schizoids talk about on the internet it seems very contrarian, self-complexyfing and arbiters of certain definitions and norms that do provide some distinct quality. it seems kind of autocratic. well people talk about having superiority complex or not then they say that they dont really care, or something like that. maybe they are disconnected, and cant properly define something on to the higher body.


there is this other common phenomena in personality disorders, psychosis, visionary states that is about:
1. exile
2. reorganization
3. re-entry
4. leadership

this psychologist john perry weir in the RD laing/jung school
talks about how some of these exterior to society processes are really about an "initiation" which if concluded by some leads to a transvaluation of the definition of what it means to be "human".
it could be a particular representation of the overall state of economical relations.

so if we ask what is the function of BPD in society and how does it correlate to this process. well it could be an overcompensation of empathy/attention as well as the evaluation of the other persons empathy/attention because of the lack of humanity present.

if we see the work of nietzche, tesla or newton. antisocial type people, we also see that each of them are really trying to find a greater connection through different mediums.

well nietzche is about breaking the ground to ultimately find a new space of interconnection that has no mundane functional coherence. tesla is about giving the world a new layer of energy. etc.

BPD on the other hand tries to tackle the problem head on with emotional vigor, trying to see and feel reality in its overbearing manipulation. they try to opt in more than less.

so i dont know if finding arbitrary space ultimately leads to finding the arbitrariness of connections that could be made.

if we juxtaposition certain "natural laws", something newton could have done being a scorpio on to the pysche. we see compensation in every corner and opposite reactions at every corner of any personality exam. then when be try to make it float its a certain imposition of an image on top of a morphological being with too many reactions and compensations. sometimes it is a manner of trying to self-identify with something outside of it that is not clearly definable within itself, and thus needs to reproduce and render itself from the outside where it is ultimately castrated. sometimes the connection of full reciprocation is severed in between individual and society, and that becomes the basis of many argumentations of the self. instead of having sovereignty with the self.

but we should take everyone with a brain that can do some type of complex calculation from or about society seriously even if they start from a mental abberancy. it does usually come out to have significance its not something vestigial to disease.

then we just continue to supress "truth" with more ssris. we have to mask social relations as much as possible. not saying that people should avoid ssris when it could help them, but eventually try to find a natural connection.

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by Moog

There is a schizoid forum I used to frequent (I have lots of aspie/schizoid/social anxiety traits), maybe I could interest some of the users of that forum in a study.

OK. If you have some traits you could post yours too. The bigger sample size, the better, because this is science.

@gen6k -

Kafka

(Warning: schizoids.info is written by some of those people who like to boldy go where no man has gone before. They can't get enough typeface emphasis. If you're not used to it, it can be rather irritating.)

Antisocial ~= asocial

I can't follow the rest of your post since it seems to come out of the blue before returning into it.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by actio

Professional psychologists have trouble making this diagnosis, let alone connecting it to person's chart. It's not a very clear-cut disorder. Strongly introverted people get misdiagnosed with it. But good luck

Is Psychiatry A Scam? Truth About Mental Disorders & Health, Psychiatrists Colin Ross & Corrina Psychetruth

Psychetruth Correspondent Corrina Rachel interviews psychiatrist Dr. Colin Ross about Psychiatry and his book “The Great Psychiatry Scam”.

Is psychiatry a scientifically based medical practice? Is there evidence that mental illness is a brain disease, a chemical imbalance or genetic disorder? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG1VHpsgUcY

[Rebel Uranian]

@JUP - Psychology ~= psychiatry. Psychology is the study of the psyche, psychiatry is the profession of giving medication for mental illness. I don't recommend anyone go see a psychiatrists unless they're in dire straits, and that's only after other stuff hasn't worked. There's a 40% recovery rate from schizophrenia without medication and a 5% with medication, for example. Antidepressants such as fluxotine are also considered placebos in all but the worst cases of depression, and depression is often used interchangeably with anxiety. Depression used to mean being mopey, and while most psychologists I've know think that it still is, psychiatrists equate it with anxiety and anhedonia most of the time. I know that there are some good psychiatrists and (many more) bad psychologists though.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

@JUP - Psychology ~= psychiatry. Psychology is the study of the psyche...

Definition of psychology sourced from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psychology

"Psychology is the science of mind and behavior and is a Scientific discipline that studies mental processes and behavior in humans and other animals. Literally meaning “the study of the mind,” psychology focuses on both individual and group behavior

Other specialized fields of psychology include child psychology, educational psychology, sports psychology, social psychology, and comparative psychology.

The issues studied by psychologists cover a wide spectrum, including learning, cognition, intelligence, motivation, emotion, perception, personality, and the extent to which individual differences are shaped by genetics or environment"

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

...psychiatry is the profession of giving medication for mental illness.

"Clinical psychology IS concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders"

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

I don't recommend anyone go see a psychiatrists unless they're in dire straits, and that's only after other stuff hasn't worked. There's a 40% recovery rate from schizophrenia without medication and a 5% with medication, for example. Antidepressants such as fluxotine are also considered placebos in all but the worst cases of depression, and depression is often used interchangeably with anxiety. Depression used to mean being mopey, and while most psychologists I've know think that it still is, psychiatrists equate it with anxiety and anhedonia most of the time. I know that there are some good psychiatrists and (many more) bad psychologists though.

Hence the valid and important question: "Is Psychiatry A Scam?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG1VHpsgUcY

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

"Clinical psychology IS concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders"

Not all clinical psychology is psychiatry, because not all treatment is medicine (i.e. therapy). You should know that because your food is your medicine and your medicine is your food.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

Not all clinical psychology is psychiatry, because not all treatment is medicine (i.e. therapy). You should know that because your food is your medicine and your medicine is your food.

'twas Hippocrates excellent advice to:


“Let your food be your medicine, let your medicine be your food”

Obviously that statement did NOT claim that 'food is your medicine' NOR that 'medicine is your food' BUT simply advises one to 'Let' food be one's medicine and/or 'Let' medicine be one's food. ....subtle difference there

SIMILARLY

Although

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

"Clinical psychology IS concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders"

Obviously, Clinical psychologists do not necessarily 'medicate' the 'mental disorders' they treat

[gen6k]

plus individualists do have good ideas on maintenance of the self. maybe everyone can learn to become autonomous.

http://selfinexile.com/the_Real_Self.html


http://selfinexile.com/Characteristics_1.html

i also agree with the quadrants. power-relations should be variable and voluntary.

instead of having

leader-follower
teacher-student
parent-child

it should be more like friend-friend throughout
except there are certain physiological steps to breach. it would require a lateralization of the evolutonary process.
for example the idea in the matrix where you can just download a whole subject. basically if authority wasent sanctioned for a particular group.

i agree with the stance that its inetivable to overcome psuedo-individuality in current society because of culture/language/power problems. everything tries to get eaten up by mcdonaldization unless you keep it away from social function.

[Rebel Uranian]

@gen6k - Your ideas are interesting, but they seem irrelevant in this thread.

[Seasoul]

I am far from being an authority on astrology, but I would hesitate to believe that any mental disorder, or illness could be seen in the chart. The thing is, you can have all the foundations for developing a mental disorder/illness yet never experience a trigger in life that activates them, hence there being a biological, inheritable aspect to, for example, schizophrenia, yet not every child of a schizophrenic parent will develop schizophrenia.

I believe the chart could show you personality aspects that may make one vulnerable to developing a mental disorder/illness, or it may even show certain life experiences that could lead to the development of one, but not everyone who has these experiences or personality aspects will go on to develop a disorder.

[Seasoul]

Another thing about personality disorders is that they aren't really a chemical issue at the source, it's more about "faulty wiring", for lack of a better term. I believe they are predominantly disorders of perception due to stunted or diverted emotional development. Someone with a PD is not themselves yet, and part of what therapy tries to achieve with PDs is discovery of the true self, and therefore, true function in life. I think the true self is more likely to be reflected in the chart, as that is the blueprint of the person whether they develop a PD or not.

EDIT: I have been diagnosed Borderline PD, and I have yet to see evidence of it in my chart, however, events that contributed to the development of it do seem in part reflected in the chart (absent father, distant mother, insecure attachments, emotional restriction, etc), depending on who reads it.