traditional / modern / contemporary

JUPITERASC said:

I notice that when a Traditional astrologer mentions the delineation of death they are discouraged from doing so - perhaps an interest in death prediction is the origin of the disapproval of Traditional astrology

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It probably is. I personally don't mind if people go on predicting death and illness etc., because it's just a prediction, and if people spazz out over it, it mostly shows their immaturity in taking everything other people say as fact. People don't hire meteorologists to predict sunny days with perfect temperatures. They hire them to predict storms so people can prepare, and no one calls them fatalistic! No one sees a doctor because they're well, or calls a suicide hotline because they just love life. If you're having nothing but bad, it's good to try to predict when it'll end, but I don't like nonsense and I don't like when people gloss over stuff and make a bunch of BS and say that only good or mildly bad stuff will happen when it won't. Dislike in this case would be an understatement, actually. It's not any better when people make statements of how hopeless things are. Basically, if people are going to talk about the unfortunate side of things (which they always should) it should be because they are making a diagnosis. Nothing is impossible to beat, and even if something hypothetically is, there's glory in losing fighting. There's no glory in losing saying "oh, I'm so hopeless... *whine*"

I like learning traditional astrology. I like learning most branches I've seen, actually. I don't like what I decided to call popular astrology, but it's hardly a real branch. Astrology is a lot like music, actually. Music today is generally simplified for the masses who think they understand it but don't, and so is astrology. Going beyond whatever the masses are doing risks putting you in an ivory tower. Basically, you must get on the tower or sink in the sewage. Both are absolutely disgusting, but you can't opt out. If you opt out in astrology (by quitting astrology,) then you'll be faced with the choice elsewhere.

OK. This is going to get me started on the comics I wanted to do. You don't even have to be a good artist to write comics. You don't even have to be funny to write comics. Look at Garfield if you know what I mean.

(this is relevant because quite a few are about astrology, including one I was recently inspired for about someone saying a meteorologist is fatalistic and then doing some pretty ridiculous stuff)

Let me mention that the estimation of longevity, and the estimation of critical periods (when death might occur), are difficult to get correct, but it can be done-and not just by the Ptolemaic methods described by Mr Zemco, but by other techniques to be found in Traditionalist and Hellenistic authors, and extensively in Vedic astrology as well, and I personally consider a couple of these types of techniques much more efficacious than the more commonly known methods found in Ptolemy and repeated by later authors.

However, in my opinion a public forum like AW is not the place to delineate likely "death periods", where the practitioner does not even know the subject (ie, the person involved) in such an investigation. That is why I do not indulge in estimating longevity or approximated "critical" (potential death) periods, here on this site; to me, this area of delineation is an intensely personal matter, and should only be done when the practitioner and client are in direct personal contact. But I will reiterate, that longevity estimation and "death period" estimations CAN be done, and with pretty close accuracy, by expert practitioners, and this is not something I just "believe" in, but rather this statement comes as a result of my own personal experiences in this matter.

The position against "death clock" astrology today is not yet another tedious "modern vs. traditional argument", but one of ethics in astrological practice and the level of skill and education of the practitioner.

I just responded today on another astrology forum to a woman wondering if her uncle was going to die! She was clearly deeply distressed about his recent suicide attempt. Her kind of death-clock request is fairly typical:

(1) the "client" or OPer on a forum is in a deep state of stress; and consequently is highly vulnerable.

(2) the responder, whether a professional or amateur, is seldom sufficiently trained in (a) "death clock" astrology, (b) medicine, and (c) counseling to offer a legitimate response.

(3) In my personal case, #2 is moot because the responder does not play God. The outcome of such a supremely important moment as death is in His hands. If He wishes to modify an astrologers' death prediction, He can do it.

I told her that I didn't do death predictions, but I could explain why I thought her uncle was driven to this step, and how she might help him if he gets out of Intensive Care.

Giving someone a death prediction is a huge responsibility. I wonder if the younger members of this thread who favour this practice have really thought it through carefully. The potential for harm to the querant is enormous.

Causing harm to a vulnerable client contradicts the ethics codes of several leading astrological associations, such as:

www.isarastrology.com (scroll down to the bottom of the page)

www.geocosmic.org/about/ethics

The traditional astrologers of yore had several different methods of calculating length-of-life (or put differently, the manner and timing of death.) The trouble was, they didn't all agree. Some of them involved the hyleg, yet there were something like six different ways of calculating it; and the outcomes would be different. Vettius Valens goes into pages and pages of formulas for calculating length of life-- and if anyone here can make head-and-tail of them and come up with a consistently accurate response for a suitable sample of test subjects who have already died, I take my hat off to you.

There were some really famous cases in the past where famous astrologers made death predictions-- sometimes to spite their enemies. The cosmic joke was on them, however, because the enemies lived well past the projected date; and astrology's credibility as a whole was lowered yet another notch in the public's mind. (See Jim Tester's and Nicholas Campion's histories of western astrology.) Death prediction was partly responsibile for outright bans on astrology at times during the Roman empire (Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.)

Moreover, we can imagine unscrupulous pseudo-astrologers taking advantage of highly vulnerable people worried about their own death or a loved-one's death. Charging exorbitant fees would be the least of it. What happens when gruesome next-of-kin start asking astrologers for death predictions? Hey, kids--spend your inheritance now because you know (or think you know) that Momma's gonna die next January 13.

Probably anyone who has been on this forum for more than 6 months has read posts by someone who was scared spitless because his dear pal who knew less astrology than a gnat told him his mother was going to die, because his moon was moving into the 8th house. Or something equally ludicrous yet damaging to a gullible individual.

Remember Mickey Mouse as "the sorcerer's apprentice" in Disney's Fantasia? Think about it.

Rebel Uranian said:

It probably is. I personally don't mind if people go on predicting death and illness etc., because it's just a prediction, and if people spazz out over it, it mostly shows their immaturity in taking everything other people say as fact. People don't hire meteorologists to predict sunny days with perfect temperatures. They hire them to predict storms so people can prepare, and no one calls them fatalistic! No one sees a doctor because they're well, or calls a suicide hotline because they just love life. If you're having nothing but bad, it's good to try to predict when it'll end, but I don't like nonsense and I don't like when people gloss over stuff and make a bunch of BS and say that only good or mildly bad stuff will happen when it won't. Dislike in this case would be an understatement, actually. It's not any better when people make statements of how hopeless things are. Basically, if people are going to talk about the unfortunate side of things (which they always should) it should be because they are making a diagnosis. Nothing is impossible to beat, and even if something hypothetically is, there's glory in losing fighting. There's no glory in losing saying "oh, I'm so hopeless... *whine*"

I like learning traditional astrology. I like learning most branches I've seen, actually. I don't like what I decided to call popular astrology, but it's hardly a real branch. Astrology is a lot like music, actually. Music today is generally simplified for the masses who think they understand it but don't, and so is astrology. Going beyond whatever the masses are doing risks putting you in an ivory tower. Basically, you must get on the tower or sink in the sewage. Both are absolutely disgusting, but you can't opt out. If you opt out in astrology (by quitting astrology,) then you'll be faced with the choice elsewhere.

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1. People who hire consulting meteorologists (or more commonly, who rely on reports by government agencies like the National Weather Service) simply want to know the weather forecast-- good, bad, or indifferent. Oh, like the transportation industry, large agri-business firms like Cargill, or water resources managers.

2. People often see doctors when they are well. They may need a routine physical check-up or innoculation.

3. People contemplate suicide for a range of reasons. Sometimes the calls are made by loved ones.

4. An honest astrologer of any stripe will not gloss over bad news. However, we know the old saw, "It's not what you say, but how you say it." Giving a person with a strong sense of self-possession a dire prediction or telling him that he is basically an immature narcissist (or somesuch) will turn him off immediately, such that he will not absorb the message and it is essentially wasted.

A good astrologer reads a horoscope sufficiently well to know how to communicate with the person, such that she will "get it." Usually this involves respecting her human dignity as she experiences it. [This is one astro-lesson I learned the hard way.]

An astrologer needs a good bedside manner

why would someone visit an astrologer regardless whether the type of astrology they practice?

i think people look for some sense of completion, clarity or fulfillment in any number of areas of human experience.

the main reasons people may connect with an astrologer appear to be based on questions of employment, money, health and relationships. i am sure there are other reasons as well..

societies views on fate and free will have changed over the past few thousand years.. i am not sure things are any different, just that our collective and cultural perspectives are always undergoing a series of changes. we may live in a culture that has a set of views that aren't shared in another part of the world. karma is a popular idea that seems ingrained in some cultures, more likely to encourage a type of fatalism, as opposed to free will. regardless the issue of knowing the timing of one's death is an interesting question.

i go back to what waybread says and thank waybread for articulating so clearly some of my own concerns on this issue.. to sum up :
"The trouble was, they didn't all agree."
this is true of all of astrology, regardless of style.

i have examined charts from a more modern/contemporary position and noted with some regularity in cases of sickness the saturn/neptune axis that i learned from ebertin's research. i remember looking at ariel sharon's chart prior to his stroke and noting this axis being active via transit and solar arc data.. that he didn't have long to live and died not long after the initial stroke may or may not matter. i have no system for predicting death, but then again, i don't want one! i am interested in the issue of health and why certain people suffer from time to time with the idea of knowing when the suffering might end.

just this morning i was looking at the chart of a child and a few adults who suffer or died from leukemia.. b.f. skinner was one of the charts.

i suppose i have to ask, how can astrology help relieve people of suffering? one could say knowing when a person is going to die will help clarify things for them, but i doubt anyone can predict this in advance with a high degree of success.. it is all fine to examine charts after the fact and explain how a particular system for predicting something is consistent with a particular methodology, but looking back isn't the same as looking forward.. astrologers of all stripes get things wrong, no matter what system they use.. to me, for anyone to suggest otherwise is to be not grounded in reality..

it is not a case of disapproving of a particular approach to astrology so much as it is concern that predictions can be wrong! the severity of making a prediction of death would seem to be one to be particularly concerned about.. the question of the purpose it serves is a good one that i think astrologers who want to utilize it, need to ask..

perhaps those in favour of practicing a type of astrology that is able to make a prediction of death can tell us what the value is in it.. i would be curious.. while answering maybe they could also tell us if they have any ethical or moral concerns over offering this service and do they think they have a fool proof method that is open to examination as well.

thanks - james

i would like to thank dr. farr for the measured comments on this topic of reading death in charts.

i had typed out a longer response which i happened to lose, but will try again! after this, i have to get some work done!

it seems to me that there are those who want definitive answers and are drawn to a more black and white type of astrology. perhaps this is an earth type temperament, or a fire one seeking more earth, i don't know, but a type of fundamentalism is being witnessed in more areas then just astrology at present..

i would like to use a type of example to articulate some of my thoughts around this topic of predicting the timing of death in a chart. a traditional astrologer has a formula worked out for arriving at the time of death.. a person is sick and someone else wants to know whether the person will be okay or not. this is essentially an indirect way of asking something similar..(i am leaving aside the idea of asking and answering this as a horary question)...

the astrologer has a date farther out into the future as the time of death for the person.. they say this person will survive this sickness at present.. the time of death arrives but the person continues to live on.. the astrologer was 'right' every time the question was asked at an earlier time, only to be 'wrong' on the time of death.. they appeared to be 'right' only to be ultimately 'wrong' in arriving at any earlier conclusions.. i am sure this type of astrology is still being practiced in certain parts of the world today where astrology is viewed as primarily fatalistic.. what price does one pay to be 'right' in the small picture only to be ultimately 'wrong' in the larger picture?

let me give a very recent example.. someone asks if george michael was going to be okay regarding his present situation of being sick with pneumonia... this is essentially a similar question to asking if he is going to survive the sickness or not.. a modern or contemporary astrology might answer by saying they see sickness is an issue for him at this time, but they would not go so far as to make a prognostication on whether he is going to die or not. i think these are some of the differences in approach that define the modern use of astrology..

the foundations of astrology which coincidentally, is a title of one of ceo carters books, is built up on the past but continues to move forward in future, through the present. i think most astrologers who have spent any length of time in astrology view this idea of traditional verses modern as a non issue, but perhaps i am wrong on this.. perhaps one defining mark for whether one is a traditionalist or not is whether they use the planets uranus, neptune and pluto.. it's entertaining for me to think that some one would ignore the inclusion of these planets into their work while eagerly reading and absorbing the material coming out at present thanks to project hindsight.. does this dichotomy not appear odd to them? all of this brings me back to a quote i made earlier.. whatever type of astrology one uses, the idea of having an open mind is absolutely essential to learning and continuing to grow in whatever field one is in. the work needs to be based on observation as opposed to a particular style..


here is the quote i was referring to..

“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” heraclitus..

Not only a good bedside manner, Moog, but a strong inner moral compass.

For sure not everyone believes in God and may have some other basis for their ethical decisions. For sure "morality" is an inoperative, old-fashioned term for some; but then such people should not dabble in death prediction.

Sandstone, thanks for your clear and compassionate perspective. I believe that medical astrology has merit. Sometimes sombody will ask about a loved-one's serious illness, and even with my inexperience in medical astrology, I can see it in the chart based upon what I have learned. But this is different than explaining why one person with a heart attack lives and another one dies. Especially when people who love the patient and who are so fearful have so much emotion invested in the outcome.

An astrologer could hardly get into a more serious sort of prognostication than death prediction, and it is not to be taken lightly merely to indulge one's curiosity.

My personal belief is that death moments do not have consistent and definable predictive techniques..... because death is actually birth into another dimension.

I think there is one fact that underscores all of this. A client/patient should not be treated the same as a student. You can't give a death prediction. You must teach death prediction. Without knowing how things work, the client/patient might as well be making some decision about a complex surgery without the benefit of any medical classes. Most people are not capable of understanding the information correctly, even when properly delineated. So, you can't just give a static list of times and dates because these will have no real meaning to the client/patient. As waybread has well pointed out, there is serious potential for harm when people believe they know when they will die (such as self-fulfilling prophecies). Some things should be taught, but not doled out to the public like newspaper horoscopes.

i am curious to know how many folks have explored some of what i perceive as more recent developments and techniques in astrology... i am going to list some of them and perhaps others can comment if they feel so inclined.

90 degree wheel
45 degree wheel
midpoints
mwa or midpoint weighing analysis
astrocartography, relocation charts, local space, astrolocality
harmonics and harmonic charts
age harmonics, or harmonic age charts


it's a pretty small list, but maybe others are aware of newer astro techniques that have been recently introduced or that others are working with.. if so, i am curious!

briefly, the 90 degree wheel/dial is a tool that reinhold ebertin introduced that is very helpful for quickly noticing planets in hard aspect to one another out to the 8th harmonic series aspects which include the 45 and 135. alfred witte may have worked with the 90 degree wheel as well, but i am not completely of the history. the 90 degree wheel is also extremely helpful for noticing midpoints that can't be as easily seen. the use of this along with the 45 degree wheel/dial and a focus on midpoints is an important process associated with cosmobiology, another word for the general school of astrologers that use the hambury school of astrology, alfred witte, or ebertin's techniques.

i became familar with these tools/techniques a long time ago, but more recently was encouraged to try working with the 45 degree wheel.. i am surprised i never explored this earlier, but alas i didn't! the 45 degree wheel brings together planets out to the 16th harmonic aspect series which includes and highlights the 22.30 aspect.. this is 1/2 a 45 and will make 16 points round a chart that can connect planets that are not connected otherwise.. all of these charts highlight hard aspects -2x and multiple series aspects - 180,135,90,45,22.30) , which are where the tension or conflict implied between the 2 or more planets results in imbalances or tension to a chart..

mwa or midpoint weighing analysis is a useful tool that was developed by michael munkasey that helps isolate the most significant midpoints through the use of a computer program.

i am going to quote michael here at length for anyone wanting a better understanding of the mwa.. one can order his book midpoints which aside from being an excellent book, explains this process.

"The MWA has both a mathematical approach, as well as an evaluation approach. The MWA (Midpoint Weighting Analysis) does with math what a trained person using a 90 degree dial does with their eye when selecting strong or weak midpoints. There are a few steps to the MWA process: the selection of an orb, the selection of an aspect, the selection of a weight for that aspect, and then checking for each planet or point (e.g., ASC, MC) to each midpoint to see if there is a hit, and then if so what the "weight" is for that hit.

Very tight orbs are used: 3 degrees for a conjunction or opposition hit; 2 degrees for a square or trine hit (yes - the trine aspect is included); and mostly one or less degree orbs for all other aspect hits. The MWA math also uses a "bell shaped curve" for the exactness of hit. Thus, a conjunction hit that is closer to the edge of the orb allowed would be assigned less weight than an almost exact semi-square hit, etc. After all hits are determined, they are sorted and presented in various ways to the user -- the most useful of which would be to see which midpoints are strongest in a chart.

The BIG advantage to the MWA lies in the fact that all charts are evaluated the same. There is no user bias, which could happen if one were to perform these tasks by hand. Thus a large number of people or events can be evaluated and the results ensure that each have been given an equal consideration for where their chart strengths or weaknesses lie.

Much testing has shown that using the energies from the top ten or twelve strongest midpoints, is MUCH better than trying to take the weaker midpoints and trying to emphasize those energies in life. That is, take your strengths as shown by the MWA and work to maximize those midpoint energies in your life for the best fulfillment of overall potential."

astrocartography is the work of jim lewis and is the copyrighted name for what is otherwise known as relocation astrology. i am not going to give an overview on the remaining including acg, but encourage the reader to consider exploring these different techniques if they are interested.. also, if anyone is familiar with these techniques and they would like to comment on them, that would be great too!

Occasionally I use harmonics, notably the 7H and 9H (septile and novile) which effectively amounts to using minor aspects. I've not used 90 or 45 degree dials, which were developed prior to astrological computer software. Now if you want to run a 16H or 32H or whatever chart to see which planets have these 4-series aspects, you just do it on the computer.

Sometimes I use midpoints. Sometimes it seems that there should be a relationship between two planets that doesn't show up with a real aspect. Then it is worthwhile seeing if there's a midpoint relationship.

I also use the astro-maps at Astrodiesnt for travel or relocation questions.

thanks for your response waybread..

i did learn how to use the 90 degree wheel/dial prior to having an astro program.. it wasn't difficult to learn, but nowadays this is built into most astro software programs.. i think it is necessary for anyone interested in exploring these different techniques to have an astrology software program..

i am not sure what one can do with the free astrodienst system.. can one overlay 2 charts on one another for the same person with transits or directions on one of the wheels and the natal on the other? can they convert the chart from a 360 to a 90 degree wheel to be able to see certain relationships in much sharper resolution including a view on midpoints?

i have solar fire version 7.3 at present... version 8 just came out, but i am waiting til they make it available on open source! it might be never, lol.. i know there is free astro software available, but short of using what is available for free, i think anyone serious about doing astrology requires an astro software progra that they probably have to pay for..

it is not so much about looking at a 16th or 32 harmonic chart ( which i use for transits or directions) so much as it is seeing how it overlaps onto a natal chart.. this is where knowing how to use a 90 degree multi wheel really helps.. i don't believe you can get this for free on the net!

a friend who is very technically savvy with computers set up ubuntu on my computer.. i was faced with having to turn off the one operating system - ubuntu- to make my way back to use the windows system where my solar fire program is... very recently we looked into available free astro software, but soon found out that aside from basic stuff, the free software does very little! he was able to adapt my solarfire version 7.3 to ubuntu so that i don't have to reboot my computer to get to the other side where windows is..

bottom line - in order to try out anything 'contemporary' one needs to have a paid for astro software program, as i understand it presently.. i suppose one can go and grab one off the available hijacked bootlegs available too... the math to get the data i look at would be very challenging without the aid of an astro software prog!

An explanation of the 90[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT]dial for any of us unfamiliar with the idea http://www.uranian-institute.org/bf90dialexplan.htm

thanks jupiteasc. that is a pretty good link to get an idea.. he also explains how one can see the 22.5 - what i call the 22.30 aspect too... this aspect is 22 degrees 30 minutes, or 22 1/2 or 22.5 degrees..

here is a link that gives a quick overview on the 45 degree dial or wheel..
http://www.uranianastrologer.com/45dial.htm

jupiterasc - have you ever used a 90 degree wheel? i am curious!

indeed!

in this example i think it becomes a situation where one works with ptolemaic aspects only, or considers the 45 or 135 to have any relevance and value.. it is with regard to the use or not of certain types of 'aspects' that determine whether one would want to explore the use of the 90 or 45 degree dial/wheel...

the other great value in using this tool is how one can quickly see midpoint pictures, both direct and indirect...

sandstone said:

indeed! in this example i think it becomes a situation where one works with ptolemaic aspects only, or considers the 45 or 135 to have any relevance and value.. it is with regard to the use or not of certain types of 'aspects' that determine whether one would want to explore the use of the 90 or 45 degree dial/wheel...

the other great value in using this tool is how one can quickly see midpoint pictures, both direct and indirect...

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As a result of experimentation with various 'astrologies' I tend to focus on 'ancient methods' - including taking note of eclipses - and there is evidence even on this forum that there is good reason to do so! - check out not only this thread for instance http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43114&page=2 but also http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=317561&postcount=7 and http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29126

Haven't used either of the dials (a good book is "The Dial Detective", available @ astroamerica.com) but I have used "half sums" extensively, and in applications not mentioned by Witte, Ebertin or other midpoint enthusiasts. Relative to astro-cartography, while familiar and impressed by the work/indications of Johndro (eg, "Earth in the Heavens") and Sepharial ("Geodetic Equivalents") and Lewis, I am now convinced that the astro-geographical indications taken from a rare "flying roll" of S.L. MacGregor Mathers ("Golden Dawn" Mathers) are the "actually accurate" ones (my exposition of this information on another astrological website caused a great deal of consternation and played a part in my getting banned from that site, so I will not go into the Mathers material here)
John Addey's Harmonics is, of course, brilliant-but just too complex for my limited intelligence. I prefer here the long forgotten "harmonics" of the non-Ptolemiac Hellenists, ie, the technique of dodekatemorion (Ptolemy does not address this very common Hellenistic method in his works), and I consider dodeks of great importance in natal, event, and mundane delineations. The midpoint of a planet with its own dodek, produces interesting considerations...

hi dr. farr,
i am not familiar with S.L. MacGregor Mathers, but what Sepharial ("Geodetic Equivalents") was doing is something quite different from the work of jim lewis as i know it.. lewis's work isn't being applied to mundane astrology, but to personal astrology and perhaps the easiest way to understand it is if you live and are born in los angeles, if you were to move to new york, your chart would be adjusted to a time 3 hours later( or whatever the dif of time between new york and la is) with the different coordinates of new york.. you would get a rising sign and ascendant of different degrees.. that is part of the story..

i don't think the recent work john addey has done is all that complicated.. i suppose it is if one is doing these charts by hand! many of the vedic charts
shodashavarga or varga charts are actually the same charts, excepting the fact they are using a different zodiac. it sounds like you know enough to be able to incorporate whatever you want to do with the info.. i don't know if you have read addeys works, but you would probably really enjoy reading it, especially if you like astro research.. i am not as familiar with what you are doing with dodeks but it sounds interesting.. have you written up about it at any length whereby i could read about it? thanks! james