True Rulers

Not notes per se, but I started several years ago with the proposition that Ceres was considered a planet when first discovered in 1801, got demoted to asteroid status with the discovery of Neptune, and then was reclassified (along with Pluto) as a dwarf planet in 2006. The grain goddess Ceres was tremendously important in ancient Rome, as was her cognate goddess Demeter in ancient Greece. Given the significance of grain farming in ancient societies, I thought she somehow had to show up astrologically. Virgo was the obvious choice, because in Antiquity the goddess or her daughter Prosperpina (Persephone in Greece) was associated with the constellation Virgo.

Demetra George may have started the modern concept of Ceres as showing "nurturing" in the chart, not to mention the smothering mother archetype. I'm just not sure how to distinguish her view of Ceres from the moon.

The difficulty I had was in finding horoscopes of people who would demonstrate "Cereal" traits. The Astrodienst Astro-DataBank has hundreds of horoscopes, but very few for chefs or farmers; and even fewer of these with any kind of birth time, whether Rodden rated AA or DD. A Czech member of this forum once kindly provided me with birth data on a lot of Czech chefs, which was kind of interesting, but I'd have to say (unhappily) that my results in using Ceres as the house-cusp or sign ruler of Ceres was disappointing.

For anyone who confuses sign rulership with mere affinity and is unfamiliar with house cusp rulers: basically you determine the planet ruling the sign on a given house cusp, then examine its situation and condition in order to say something about the house in question. This technique is especially helpful in interpreting untenanted houses.

Working with house cusp rulers (lords) is standard in horary astrology, but it has also been used in nativities since late ancient times. For example, if you have Gemini on your 10th house cusp, and Mercury is located in the 5th house, being a teacher or leisure industry worker might be a good career for you.

In nativities I have found that the modern outer planets work just fine as house cusp rulers, but I wasn't getting good results with Ceres and Virgo.

Mythologically, Demeter/Ceres was also known as the "law giver" and a Greek religious festival called the Thesmophoria was devoted to her in this capacity every autumn. In Roman lore, Ceres was the mother of gods Liber and Libera, who were celebrated in autumn. Given the myth about Hades snatching away Persephone and hiding her underground, and the tropical zodiac putting the autumn equinox at the shift from Virgo into Libra, Libra might be the next-best candidate to work with, but I just haven't done this yet. Venus is the ruler of Libra, and there are some interesting parallels between Ceres-Persephone and the myth of Venus, Persephone, and Adonis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis The Greek Adonis was based upon much older similar gods in the Near East. who were dying-and-reborn vegetation gods.

While we could debate the wisdom of assigning a modern rulership based upon mythology, it is clear that this is precisely what was done in ancient times when the gods were worshipped. Today Mercury rules thieves and liars because the young god Mercury stole and lied. Mars today rules soldiers because the Roman god Mars was the god of battle.

Taurus and Cancer also have agricultural associations, but the planetary goddess Venus has a long history of association with Taurus going back to the Sumerian Innana. Cancer with its maternal connotations could also be a good fit, but again, you'd want to see how well Ceres works as a house cusp ruler for houses with Cancer on the cusp.

Because I look at both modern and traditional rulers of Scorpio, Aquarius, and Pisces; I am not suggesting here that Ceres replace the traditional ruler of any sign with which she might show good results. Just as most children have two parents unless one is completely absent, I think dual sign rulerships work well.

I''mwondering if you would have more luck to expand your query to agricultural scientists? I bet people like Fritz Haber might yield some interesting information. Geneticists, too.

Further to my previous post, I don't get Chiron as the ruler of Virgo at all. Virgo has been associated with the 6th house and its connotation of ill health and wellness. The centaur Chiron was sort of the mythological father of medicine, but of other things as well, such as various arts taught to young Greek aristocrats and heroes, as well as prophecy. In ancient sources, Chiron was associated with the centaur constellations Sagittarius or Centaurus, depending on the author.

What is interesting about the sign Sagittarius is that it and Scorpio collectively take over the constellation Ophiuchus. Astrology has been based upon 30-degree signs rather than constellations since the Babylonians developed signs something like 2500 years ago, although they continued to use fixed stars. The constellation Ophiuchus does cross the ecliptic. Very little of it does, but then the same could be said of the constellations Aries and Libra.

Ophiuchus today is depicted as a man holding or wrestling with two large snakes, believed by some to be the prototype of the doctor's caduceus. Indirect evidence suggests it was the tree of life (the snake in the "apple" tree in the Garden of Eden, plus in other ancient lore.)

There are other small but tantalizing tidbits of lore that lead me to think that the sign of Sagittarius adopted some of Ophiuchus's better qualities.

Astrological Chiron is associated with wounds and healing, but also with the wisdom and compassion that come from dealing with life's vicissitudes. In other words, with Sagittarian matters of philosophy and faith.

There's more cool stuff where this came from, but succinctly: assigning a rulership takes a lot of research and beta-testing.

I think I once put Chiron and Cancer together in my head, for like, a split second. Chiron being Sagittarius/Cancer would make it like Jupiter Jr, though.

graay ghost said:

I''mwondering if you would have more luck to expand your query to agricultural scientists? I bet people like Fritz Haber might yield some interesting information. Geneticists, too.

Click to expand...

Good idea-- if you've got some likely candidates, let me know what you find. Again, the problem will probably be getting good birth times on them. Hopefully there are some in the Astro-DataBank. You can do some work without good houses, but it's a lot more limited.

If memory serves, I did look at George III of England (the American villain but "Farmer George" to his English subjects,) Prince Charles, George Washington Carver, and Rudolf Steiner as people with agricultural interests.


Fritz Haber (I just checked) is in the Astro-DataBank, but with no birth time, he's Rodden-rated "X" so I wouldn't fabricate houses for him.

The goddess Ceres was above all about a sanctified attitude towards agriculture-- something we may have lost in today's modern food system. Grain in the field was called "Ceres", along with her anthropomorphic myths and religious practices.

I should mention that some astrologers associate Ceres with extreme grief (cf. the drought she caused upon the abduction of her daughter,) and in Magi astrology, Ceres is a malefic.

Too bad about Haber. A quick look however shows me that Hugo DeVries and Carolus Linnaeus both have birth times listed. I'll look some more when I get home.

Okay, not all scientists, but here are some people who might be of interest:

Carlos E Chardon, mycologist
Peter Holmes a Court, CEO
Frances Moore Lappe, writer on world hunger
William Alexander Hewitt, executive
Carolus Linnaeus, botanist
Hugo DeVries, botanist
Erwin Baur, geneticist and botanist

You'll have to make the call on these people if you think you can use them. If you search Astrodientist for "agriculture" you can find tons of people who were like "ministers of agriculture", not sure if that would be helpful.

Might look for more later, and really wish we had Haber :/

waybread said:

Further to my previous post, I don't get Chiron as the ruler of Virgo at all. Virgo has been associated with the 6th house and its connotation of ill health and wellness. The centaur Chiron was sort of the mythological father of medicine, but of other things as well, such as various arts taught to young Greek aristocrats and heroes, as well as prophecy. In ancient sources, Chiron was associated with the centaur constellations Sagittarius or Centaurus, depending on the author.

What is interesting about the sign Sagittarius is that it and Scorpio collectively take over the constellation Ophiuchus. Astrology has been based upon 30-degree signs rather than constellations since the Babylonians developed signs something like 2500 years ago, although they continued to use fixed stars. The constellation Ophiuchus does cross the ecliptic. Very little of it does, but then the same could be said of the constellations Aries and Libra.

Ophiuchus today is depicted as a man holding or wrestling with two large snakes, believed by some to be the prototype of the doctor's caduceus. Indirect evidence suggests it was the tree of life (the snake in the "apple" tree in the Garden of Eden, plus in other ancient lore.)

There are other small but tantalizing tidbits of lore that lead me to think that the sign of Sagittarius adopted some of Ophiuchus's better qualities.

Astrological Chiron is associated with wounds and healing, but also with the wisdom and compassion that come from dealing with life's vicissitudes. In other words, with Sagittarian matters of philosophy and faith.

There's more cool stuff where this came from, but succinctly: assigning a rulership takes a lot of research and beta-testing.

Click to expand...

The sign Ophiuchus is also known as the "Gate of God", while the opposite constellation Orion is "the Gate of Man". They are two portals or gateways to the concept of God in astrology. Not surprising in astronomy, the galactic center of the Milky Way is between Scorpio's "tail" or western end and Sagittarius' "arrow" or eastern end, which is a black hole.

waybread said:

The thing about sign rulers is that they need to work as house cusp lords. Do you use these in your astrological analyses? It isn't merely a question of planet-sign affinity but whether the sign rulers have good analytical or predictive capability in natal, horary, mundane, or electional astrology.

So perhaps you could offer a demonstration of how well your unconventional rulers work in specific chart interpretations.

I have to draw the line at the earth ruling Taurus. Astrology is based on a geocentric solar system, with planets that appear to circle the earth in the heavens. The earth is the platform on which we stand to view the astrological planets (whether through naked eye or telescope.) As such it is represented by the AC-DC axis, or perhaps by the IC or perhaps by the lower hemisphere of the horoscope. The AC show the eastern horizon, and the DC shows your western horizon. In this way the earth is already represented in the horoscope.

The association of Venus with Taurus goes back to the Babylonians.

You cannot place the earth in a horoscope without reverting to a heliocentric zodiac, which invariably places the earth at 180 degrees opposite your sun.

Click to expand...

Hi, Waybread. Yes I use them extensively as house cusp rulers, however I rather would call them big brothers of the houses, as there is even higher lords on the way in the Universe and space-time itself.(I use personally Koch house system)

In order:

1st House - Pluto
2nd House - Earth
3rd House - Lilith(Dark moon)
4th House - Moon
5th House - Mercury
6th House - Venus
7th House - Sun
8th House - Mars
9th House - Jupiter
10th House - Saturn
11th House - Uranus
12th House - Neptune

Affinity can be found all around in my system too, yet I do not use it at all, as in my opinion it only leads to misunderstandings. Affinity is lets say the similarity in Uranus, Jupiter and Mercury as in between all theirs higher and lower grades of expression. However they are totally different in their own role and expelling the affinity is the best one could do to keep its vision not blurred. This said, I have not created this system based on affinities and similarities. I think another user asked me how I got this order, so I might get into detail later.

Ancients placed many affinities, associations with celestial objects in their religions, science and myths, which to us brought more misconceptions than hard facts. The web is so huge that never-mind the curiosity of all this, even in 21th century we had not unfold the one and only truth, as probably there is not one and only truth behind the culture and way of seeing the world of past civilizations. Personally I like to study ancient way of thinking and ponder of question why a lot before incorporate a statement of the past in modern ways of thinking and science (as astrology).

Yes I am placing the Earth in a horoscope without reverting to a heliocentric zodiac, yet I do not vision Earth as static platform incapable of its own emanation. Rather the opposite, earth is the most important planet from the solar system for us. By matters of order its energy coincides with the energy of Taurus. If evolution of humanity took place on mercury let's say mercury and Leo would be in huge importance to us.

As for example we can look to the chart of a random client I have saved around. For understandable reasons I hide the personal data.



What I do first in natal chart like this is to consult to which axis the point I explore is holding. Each point has its macro and micro axis attachment as also its third aspect of behavior attachment(or middle). Micro or the Self is found by house method and Macro by sign placement. Middle is the relation of planets of our solar system.
Axis for me are the best and quickest way to attain needed information. I usually search for the most important happenings in the chart, or like in the case I present here, the person was in need of understanding better the fact she was unable to conceive, I had to focus on the axis responsible for this. Cutting out the Karmic evaluation of the situation the facts are there if one is able to fend them. As the case was " I a m unable to conceive " the focus went straight on the micro level of Saturn/Moon Axis. Micro guided by I(self) and Saturn/Moon by Conceive. Thus we can observe easily the reasons behind. The person has 4 planets attached on this axis and three of them are retrograding. Especially with mercury retrograding there at the top of the Saturn part of the axis it was not easy the axis itself to be very productive. Note also few other factors influencing this; Venus and MC itself are guided by Lilith. Pluto and Saturn are also retrograding and Saturn itself is unstable with his position of 29 degrees 44 minutes in Aquarius. Well, I like may things about this chart, yet the Kids there will have a bit of a problem coming. A lot of prayer and understanding might help only.

For the curious; here are the axis I currently use:

Sun is point of attention axis of intent and harmony, or Will [Ichchha]
Venus is point of elegance axis of art and perception, or Wisdom [Jnanam]
Mercury is point of majesty axis of yield and knowledge, or Activity [Kriya]
Moon is point of manifestation axis of form and structure, or Rhythm [Sattva]
Lilith is point of surrender axis of precision and love, or Mobility [Rajas]
Mars is point of reverse axis of radiance and discipline, or Inertia [Tamas]
Earth is point of unfolding axis of radiance and discipline, or Inertia [Tamas]
Jupiter is point of creation axis of precision and love, or Mobility [Rajas]
Saturn is the point of forming axis of form and structure, or Rhythm [Sattva]
Uranus is the point of release axis of yield and knowledge, or Activity [Kriya]
Neptune is the point of unity axis of art and perception, or Wisdom [Jnanam]
Pluto is the point of supremacy axis of impulse and harmony, or Will [Ichchha]

sibylline said:

No bashing but I'd like to know the logic behind some of these choices.

Click to expand...

Hi, sibylline

Openly told me.

Through the voice of Egyptian philosophy mostly.

With this system I conspire that the Solar system is complete matrical system, and thus should bear the similarities of other finished systems. A paradigm of this system we can find in the Egyptian based Kabbalah. Not only, but Kabbalah is the simplest. Study this universal paradigm and you might get closer to my intentions of placing the rulers.

katydid said:

What is the connection between Black Moon Lilith and Gemini? That one does not really ring true for me. The others seems possible/plausible. But Gemini does not seem as emotional, deep, dark, histrionic to me, as lilith seems to be.

Click to expand...

Hi, katydid

In my previews post I posted the paradigm for studying. Well as in everything I do not consider it perfect too. It lacks decent Mirroring and in the all Kabbalah you would find nothing but a pinch of grass about anti-daat (anti-wisdom), where daat is the process of forming, the anti-daat is likewise but pretty reverse; de-forming. I seeketh a expression of this point in the solar system. Dark moon only went matricly and emotional-energetically enough close. I bet on it and my experience from few years doing so shows me she is pretty reliable for expressing anti-daat.

Remember, every card has its two sides. Gemini can be even extra double (pun intended) so if a historian looks at event only from the bright or dark side, this does not make the event one-sided happening. If there is a winner, there must be a looser. The same with the sign of Gemini, it has been worshiped and cursed both throughout ages, depends on who do you listen.

Dubyadude1986 said:

I think you have Pluto and Mars rulerships flip-flopped. Much easier to use Mars for Scorpio than Pluto for Aries.

Click to expand...

Hi, Dude

Mars and Pluto both are great Mfiozi, thus its easy to mistaken one with another, I know. Study, think on it and if I am wrong, I buy you a deck of beers!

Claire19 said:

I don't know where you get your hypotheses but I have been an astrologer for over 30 years and I know what rules what with the exception of Virgo which could be Chiron??? Libra's ruler is a mystery at the moment.

Click to expand...

Hi, Clarie


You've been astrologer for 30 years and for the past 30 years you had not learned even the main lesson of astrology, which is... "be open minded"

How's that!?

Claire19 said:

Black Moon Lilith is not a planet and asteroids rule nothing, no matter how big they may be.

Click to expand...

You seem to exclude the validity of everything that is out of the five-senses spectrum. How convenient... the Earth is flat too, right? And I am not pointing to the asteroid Lilith, but dark moon Lilith.

graay ghost, thanks for the links. I'd have to save the charts to my computer in order to input Ceres. I recall looking at Frances Moore Lappe-- if memory serves, she has a Ceres-Saturn connection, which is interesting in light of her important word on world hunger.

fawahar, your system looks interesting, but very different from conventional western astrology, although some astrologers have linked the kabbalistic tree of life diagram with astrology. I think we have to conclude that astrology is in many ways a personal and subjective pursuit.

fawahar said:

Hi, katydid

In my previews post I posted the paradigm for studying. Well as in everything I do not consider it perfect too. It lacks decent Mirroring and in the all Kabbalah you would find nothing but a pinch of grass about anti-daat (anti-wisdom), where daat is the process of forming, the anti-daat is likewise but pretty reverse; de-forming. I seeketh a expression of this point in the solar system. Dark moon only went matricly and emotional-energetically enough close. I bet on it and my experience from few years doing so shows me she is pretty reliable for expressing anti-daat.

Remember, every card has its two sides. Gemini can be even extra double (pun intended) so if a historian looks at event only from the bright or dark side, this does not make the event one-sided happening. If there is a winner, there must be a looser. The same with the sign of Gemini, it has been worshiped and cursed both throughout ages, depends on who do you listen.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, interesting theory.

Could you demonstrate how you would use the dark moon liltith- gemini connection in a natal chart example?

fawahar said:

Hi, Clarie


You've been astrologer for 30 years and for the past 30 years you had not learned even the main lesson of astrology, which is... "be open minded"

How's that!?



You seem to exclude the validity of everything that is out of the five-senses spectrum. How convenient... the Earth is flat too, right? And I am not pointing to the asteroid Lilith, but dark moon Lilith.

Click to expand...

most people are widely encouraged towards what i term a "referential" vantage - "as a culture, we communicate through known reference, so if you want to be understood, talk what we already know"

the great principle of the universe and of magic is creation. if the "little" people (as the cryptocracy terms them) were encouraged to manifest their creative abilities, then authority would be in a right mess.

the interesting thing about Creativity, is that, like mathematics, you can invent things, and they are true.

you can invent things, and they are true.

and you can apply these orders to interpretation of precedent event and they are still true. amazing! this is true creativity. it is why magic is so easy (and so foolish and difficult to discourage).

lilith.. lilly, as affectionately referenced by forum members.. lil, little.. is a predominant trend in cryptocratic thought. this angry, vengeful spirit can afflict anyone with "valid" persecution because we are all experiencing subjectivity in life. cryptocratic delight.. a superweapon.

it's like peanuts, americans find a way to mix it into everything.

and this is a trend you will continue to see.. "meet lil, she's oh so interesting and such an innocent" bottomless insatiable pit of spite and vindictiveness.

the great work.. spreading misery for everyone...

Fawahar, I use the Tree of Life also, but a simpler version I learned in the late '60's. Only 10 nodes, numbered and labeled: 1)the Crown; 2)Wisdom; 3)Understanding; 4)Mercy;
5)Severity; 6)Beauty; 7)Victory; 8)Glory; 9)Foundation; and 10)Incorporation (learning that is internalized). Using basic numerology, it's a repeating loop, wherein 10 combines the whole, expressed as 1+0=1. So, starting at the Crown, and following the connecting paths downward, you reach the 10th node, incorporate what you've learned from the journey, and are "transported" back to the Crown. Then you begin again: Life is Learning and Learning is Life.
I apply the numbers 1 through 12 to the Astrological Signs, beginning with Aries. Aquarius and Pisces, by adding the digits, (1+1=2 and 1+2=3) can join Taurus and Gemini at nodes 2)Wisdom and 3)Understanding, respectively, but their true natures are outside the scope of the Tree. I see the tenth Sign, Capricorn, as containing the first 9 Signs within it. Aquarius and Pisces are on a different journey, and aren't fully included in the "1-to-10-and-back-again" repeating-loop.[IMO]

waybread, noraleader, david; thanks for the nice input guys, appreciated.

conspiracy theorist said:

Hmmm, interesting theory.

Could you demonstrate how you would use the dark moon liltith- gemini connection in a natal chart example?

Click to expand...

Yes, I remember one old example, actually it was my close friend who really was not a fan of astrology, yet at one celebration under the corruption of wine spirits we went to discuss his natal chart. Throughout the all thing one was absolutely amazing, the fact that he had Jupiter and Dark Moon conjunct withing a degree in cancer. All this action was lurking around his DC as he could not guarantee me the exactness of his birth hour. I tried my best to set his AC and MC properly but in my mind it was still wobbling like ± 10 degrees. In the end It made a lot of sense the Jup/Darkmoon conjunct to be exactly on his DC. There was not too much other things happening to them, just one wide opposition of Uranus. What was happening with my friend and in his life I found was very due exactly to this astrological collision. He was expression of the constant battle of the true moon(considering the sign of cancer) and the dark moon(being placed there) where the battlefield was his lore of relationships mostly(I know two of his past mates and his wife). That actually really drove me to set DC there. And Jupiter was not only giving strong input and fueling the sides like grand mafiozo selling guns to both parties, but was emphasizing the so-created cruel duality of his personality, which only a well balanced person could stand.

The placement of Dark moon in other charts goes more easy usually, just pointing where the murderer side and un-delayed gratitude side of personality lies. In one particular example I had bet on Lilith to be the reason for a carrier of a person, but as I reckon it was solely example. I had a client with Libra positioned Sun and Lilith both in 3rd house(lilith ruled), she was a modern dances teacher, with the charm of a mistress.

I mostly emphasize and advice people to look at their Dark Moon placement by house and sign and try to be less serious about the activities and areas connected with the placement, as on karmic level Lilith is the one that shows which things should be blown away and made renew in the current lifetime. Even if its hard to accept. Maybe Virgo Lilith is the hardest placement to accept this my advice, I can say from my observations. This two energies are highly contrary. As Virgo is prudent is Lilith Vigilante.

Thanks for your well-considered opinion of Lilith (Dark Moon). I have it in the Cancerian Rulership group along with everything Lunar, including the Lunar Nodes. Hecate would be somehow related to Lilith, according to your description; and the Sirens as well.
What attitude towards a Sign would you say correlates to Lilith's placement in that Sign? For example, my Natal Lilith is in early Capricorn in H11. How does this affect my attitude toward Capricorn in general?