Can I trust this guy?

Tried posting in relationship astrology but haven't had any responses so will try here. With this fellow's chart alone rather than the synastry chart, so hope that makes it easier.

Basically my heart has been saying it's OK to trust this guy, that he's ultimately focused on spiritual goals and is developing along that path. YET... I've seen a few instances where he seems to just make up his own ethics to suit himself. I've asked him to explain what he believes in morally, but he can't or won't. When I asked who he respects, trying to get a sense that way, he couldn't come up with anyone. (Or wouldn't -- he's also quite argumentative and easily feels "pushed" even by what I think of as innocuous questions like that.)

The trigger for posting today was when he told me yesterday that on day 2 of his new job, driving from one work location to the next, he stopped for some personal business. He thought 10-15 minutes of the company's time, not a big deal.

It's this willingness to push the envelope and to, as I interpret it, make up ethics-to-suit-me that I find worrying.

Any thoughts/insights?

With that chart, I cannot see any clear reasons why you should not trust this guy - except for the Venus and Mars square, which can indicate being very selfconcerned and not very interestied in other peoples need or wants, this aspect has said to be "selfish"-aspect.

But on the way you told about your conversations, I would say, do not trust this person. If he cannot say anyone who he respects, and he feels easily threatened, sound to me very bad. It can indicate that this person has very low selfesteem and may try to push other people around (or do not respect others) to feel better about themselves.

I would say that do not trust this person, but if in time he proves to be trusted, then it's okey. But now it seems a little too alarming...

Hey,

This first place I looked for "questionable ethics" and "trust issues" was his Pluto. Pluto is recieving a lot of aspects in this chart so it seems to be a place that we can gather some information. The fact that Pluto is conjunct Uranus makes me think that whatever his stance is around deception, manipulation, and respect, is going to blow hot and cold. This isn't a HUGE deal since I wouldn't necessarily say that Uranian influences have the innate desire to hurt, but just to constantly disrupt and change... this could be a positive thing since change might mean he is always refining and bettering his take in these matters. Plus, both are in Virgo in the 3rd house... he might be able to reason and analyze his way into cognitively rationalize his so-called untrustworthy behaviors, but they don't seem to come from a place of emotional malice or anything like that.

Pluto is however, making a square to mercury, which means he might be deceptive in what he says. Again, however, this involving light and airy gemini, like cool Virgo, so his trust stuff is going to stay on a mental level. I bet he is good at chess.


The trine Neptune makes to Pluto might mean he is capable of even deceiving himself and believing his own lies. Does this make him a liar? Not sure. The question of honor comes in with both Mars and Saturn. Saturn is trining Jupiter, so this guy seems like he truly has the capabilities of being an upright citizen. Mars is trining his sun so he is probably won't rely on immature displays of anger to get his way. That bit could go either way. He could be wonderfully direct, or maybe when he, when he needs to lie, might fall back on some other aspects.

He certainly is capable of lying (mercury square pluto) but I think what you're seeing is more of his shy Capricorn moon in the 8th house trining Pluto. This guy is probably deep, just afraid to show his true colors.

I'm seeing more issues with rage and anger in relationships (two tee-squares involving Mars, Venus, Moon, and Saturn) and defense mechanisms (cancer ascendant). If anything this guy is EXTREMELY terrified of being vulnerable and might lie or act like he doesn't give a f*ck because he is afraid of someone getting to his core. I don't think he would offensively lie, but rather do it defensively.

That said, you are looking at someone with a happy Sun, Jupiter, and Neptune. He might be a bit grandiose, proud, and imaginative. I would think he is the type to believe his own lies, and not to lie to be cunning or hurtful.

Hope this helps some.

Mod!

Modcleopatra said:

he might be able to reason and analyze his way into cognitively rationalize his so-called untrustworthy behaviors, but they don't seem to come from a place of emotional malice or anything like that.

The trine Neptune makes to Pluto might mean he is capable of even deceiving himself and believing his own lies.

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It's not so much a question of outright lying, and there is definitely no malice in his actions. It's can he really see the consequences of his actions and how they might be harmful to others?

In other words, the disconnect is between seeing how doing what benefits him can be detrimental to others (e.g., taking company time for personal business, taking wood from someone else's property because "it will just rot there", etc.). His trespasses aren't huge, but they have in several cases gone just on the far side of the law. So there's also the risk of legal action, losing a job, etc. He tells himself (and me) that he won't get caught, it's not a big deal, etc.

I'm seeing more issues with rage and anger in relationships (two tee-squares involving Mars, Venus, Moon, and Saturn) and defense mechanisms (cancer ascendant).

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That's right on. We've worked through a lot in that area, pretty satisfactorily with the help of that strong Neptune and meditation.

WEll....Hey....I am not sure what you are asking? Do you feel this aspect of his could progress? You may want to progress his chart? And look a t long term transits. The only thing that stood out for me was the mercury in the 12th house of secrets in an intercepted gemini and its square to pluto/jupiter in the fifth. This outlet might manifest as sort of erratic behavior or thinking manifiesting through the fifth house. The 3rd house jupiter in Leo might lend toward a more boastful expression...maybe it is more an enlargement of himself through communication. What is desconcerting is saturns squares to both venus and mars. Saturn is his 7th house ruler venus intercepted in the 2nd and mars intercepted in the 1st....he may have trouble with expressing various aspects of himself and then things come out in odd ways....just some thoughts....what you may want to loook at is your own chart and see what answers you can find there....

I guess what I'm asking is, Am I looking at a lifetime of courting disaster with jobs, the law, etc. with this fellow? Every once in a while he'll do something that is outright illegal. Not malicious, never doing direct harm to someone, and in his mind sometimes actually beneficial (E.g. I'm taking the wood from his property because otherwise it would rot on the ground and be wasted.)

My sense is the further one goes on a spiritual path, the less one is able to make even small transgressions (whether it's taking wood or taking 15 minutes from your employer). And he clearly IS on a spiritual path. So I'm not understanding how he sees these things as OK.

I get the sense if he wants to do something badly enough, he will find a rationalization to support it. When I ask him to describe his ethical beliefs or guideposts or whatever you want to call it, he can't or won't describe any -- it's "what's right for the time". Yes, everything is fluid, yet without ANY moral or ethical code that can be articulated, I worry that he'd be able to reationalize pretty much anything he wanted to.

I'm concerned about how that might manifest in a long-term relationship.

I posted an answer in the relationship site..you can look there.

Hye Libradragon,

This guy has his planets scattered all around his chart,meaning his interests are also scattered all around the place.He may not be able to tell you exacly what he stands for because,well,he may not know it himself!With a 12th house Sun,no wonder spiritual growth is something big for me;the fact that he has already realised that's the path he needs to follow is something you can hold to.It's just that he may not be sure about what to believe in.Having Jupiter(philosophy,morality,ethics)in the3rd,the house of learning,may mean he will spend a good deal of time trying to work out moral issues and distinguishing right from wrong.Taking a stand and holding it is simply something that comes hard for him,as his Gemini planets like change and innovation,his detrimented Saturn(morality and ethics,just like Jupiter)in Aries don't know how to act according to society's rules and his 3rd house Jupiter keeps him in a constant search for an unique philosophy that suits him.

Saturn has a lot to do with duty and responsability,and how we fit into society and it's rules,and he has his Saturn in detriment,in the house of social awareness,which means he doesn't always agree with the established rules,or he may think he can bend some rules simply because.

However,I don't see this as the chart of someone who isn't trustworthy,in that 'evil' sense;he may sometimes be very cranky and even cold(detrimented Moon opposing Venus in Cancer),hidding strong emotional needs under the surface and having sudden outbursts of bad temper every once in a while(Moon square Mars),but he has a loyal,kind heart and has his own,unique charm(much of it connected to his talkative,curious Gemini planets and the aura of mystery given by his Venus trine Neptune).He is just someone who needs to workout his spiritual path and find his own way into society's rules.He may need to learn certain concepts such as private property,illegalicy,etc,and it will take a lot of time for you to *tame* his rebelliousness and get some common sense into his head,but,whenever he's preparing to perform his next illegal at,it may work if you get him to walk in the other person's shoes.

It seems like he is just starting his long walk towards spiritual fullfilment;his journey make take a boost when Neptune goes through his Saturn(if it haven't already...I lose track of the ephemerides).The question is:are you ready to be patient and help him walk his path?

Lissa said:

This guy has his planets scattered all around his chart,meaning his interests are also scattered all around the place.He may not be able to tell you exacly what he stands for because,well,he may not know it himself!...It's just that he may not be sure about what to believe in....Taking a stand and holding it is simply something that comes hard for him... Saturn(morality and ethics,just like Jupiter)in Aries don't know how to act according to society's rules and his 3rd house Jupiter keeps him in a constant search for an unique philosophy that suits him.

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If you knew how right-on this is, you'd be amazed.

he has his Saturn in detriment,in the house of social awareness,which means he doesn't always agree with the established rules,or he may think he can bend some rules simply because.

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Whoa, that's right on again. Bullseye. I struggle with how to express my own discomfort when he chooses to bend the rules without triggering in him feelings of being judged. Discomfort with consequences if he gets caught, and that people will, by association, assume I'm also ready to bend rules.

However,I don't see this as the chart of someone who isn't trustworthy,in that 'evil' sense;he may sometimes be very cranky and even cold(detrimented Moon opposing Venus in Cancer),hidding strong emotional needs under the surface and having sudden outbursts of bad temper every once in a while(Moon square Mars),but he has a loyal,kind heart and has his own,unique charm

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Absolutely.

He is just someone who needs to workout his spiritual path and find his own way into society's rules. He may need to learn certain concepts such as private property,illegalicy,etc,and it will take a lot of time for you to *tame* his rebelliousness and get some common sense into his head,but,whenever he's preparing to perform his next illegal at,it may work if you get him to walk in the other person's shoes.

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EXCELLENT idea. He prides himself on being sensitive to people, and this might be a helpful way to approach without trigggering defensiveness.

It seems like he is just starting his long walk towards spiritual fullfilment;...The question is:are you ready to be patient and help him walk his path?

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This is a VERY fair assessment. Yes, I'm quite willing to be patient and helpful (he's helping me with my own stuff at the same time). I've been looking for insights as to why these blips occur, and if there's hope they might subside wih time. You've hit lots of nails right on the head here, and I find it quite encouraging.

Part of me thinks, if you don't like what's in front of you, give it up. But another part has seen how much progress he has already made (me too) and is very hopeful that this eventually, after a few years of really working at things and a lot of initial discomfort, could be tremendous. (He has given up smoking, drinking, and swearing since we've been together, and he says he feels much better for those changes.)

It's so helpful to read what others are seeing in the chart to help in making that decision whether or not to risk it. There's an awareness that the branch might break but there's a nice big fruit out there.