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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 09-10-2016, 07:42 PM
amberline amberline is offline
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Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Hello everyone! Please excuse this dilettante question, but as I'm a newbie to traditional astrology, I still struggle with the basics, so I'd appreciate any help on this. So the question is: how do you deal with combust planets in a natal chart - considering them as both general and particular significators (eg. Mars is a general sigificator of war, conflicts, injuries, young men etc., but in a chart with Aries/Scorpio on MC it becomes a significator of profession, fame, reputation and so on too).
I mean, I know that at least in horary combustion is one of the most serious debilities, it shows hidden matters, things that cannot see or be seen properly, however it's hard for me to apply these rules on natal delineation (don't even know whether they can applied this way :P)... I assumed that combust planets' effect in natal would be somehow diminished or problematic, but I know quite a few exceptions from this rule (eg. i know personally 2 females with Mars out of sect combust, and they both are really, really choleric (though both their charts are rather earthy/melancholic), getting mad pretty easy; one of them used to be a professinal athlete, too). Well generally speaking, I kind of struggle with understanding this combustion thing /perhaps caused by the fact I personally have no planets combust/under sunbeams/, so I would be really grateful for any advices how to read it - thank you in advance and please excuse my English

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  #2  
Unread 09-15-2016, 06:24 PM
Jescilito Jescilito is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

It's all about context. There is no single answer to this question.
For instance, when your delineating a chart, the best way to start is on one specific area of life. You follow rules outlined by a solid trustworthy author, and you work your way around the different areas of life. It will mean something different for a man, as opposed to a woman.

Its no doubt an affliction, but you have to consider many factors together so that other details may balance out the affliction. Their may be other problems that hinder it further. It may be a planet in its own house and exaltation therefore the planet can still perform a bit.

On a basic psychological level, you could say that Sun diminishes the strength of a planet when its close. Its nourishing from a far.
Even though Sun diminishes its strength, Sun takes on a bit of that planets virtue as well.

Someone with Sun conj Mars, may seem quite Martial.

Also there varying sets of rules for determining temperament depending on what source you go by, Sun is only one piece of that puzzle.
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  #3  
Unread 09-16-2016, 11:16 PM
DavidMcCann DavidMcCann is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Morinus rejected the idea that combustion was an affliction. His argument was that he had a combust Mercury and if you were reading his book you could see there was nothing wrong with his mind! Others with combust Mercury included Edison and Wittgenstein.

I'd judge a conjunction with the Sun like any other conjunction. Do the planets have a similar nature (Sun and Mars) or do they lack compatability (Sun and Nepture)? What sign are they in?
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  #4  
Unread 09-16-2016, 11:48 PM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post

Morinus rejected the idea that combustion was an affliction.
His argument was that he had a combust Mercury and if you were reading his book
you could see there was nothing wrong with his mind!
Others with combust Mercury included Edison and Wittgenstein.

I'd judge a conjunction with the Sun like any other conjunction.
On this Traditional board, judgement is traditional
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post


Do the planets have a similar nature (Sun and Mars)
or do they lack compatability (Sun and Nepture)?
What sign are they in?

no planet is visible when conjunct Sun
unlike
"any other conjunction"

also the thread is posted on our Traditional board
on which as the rules clearly state

Neptune is irrelevant
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  #5  
Unread 09-17-2016, 12:17 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

I know we're on the trad board, but just to clarify a point. If you use the outer planets, it makes no sense to use combustion.

The greatest affliction is because a planet becomes invisible when it's combust. The outer planets are always invisible, even when they're not combust.

See the flaw in logic of using both?
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  #6  
Unread 09-17-2016, 12:25 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

I know we're on the trad board, but just to clarify a point.

If you use the outer planets, it makes no sense to use combustion.


The greatest affliction is because a planet becomes invisible when it's combust.

The outer planets are always invisible, even when they're not combust.

See the flaw in logic of using both?
The logic is definitely not combust
not even under the beams and is completely visible

Thanks for that salient point Oddity, succinct as ever
Combustion only makes sense within the context of visible planets

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Unread 09-17-2016, 12:39 AM
DavidMcCann DavidMcCann is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On this Traditional board, judgement is traditional.
I quote Morinus and you tell me off for not being traditional. Do you not know who he was?!
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  #8  
Unread 09-17-2016, 01:18 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post

I quote Morinus and you tell me off for not being traditional.
Do you not know who he was?!

I wonder if you realise that you also said

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post

I'd judge a conjunction with the Sun like any other conjunction.
Do the planets have a similar nature (Sun and Mars)
or do they lack compatability (Sun and Nepture)?
What sign are they in?

Outer planets are irrelevant on the traditional board

however I then quote your entire post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post

Morinus rejected the idea that combustion was an affliction.
His argument was that he had a combust Mercury
and if you were reading his book you could see there was nothing wrong with his mind!
Others with combust Mercury included Edison and Wittgenstein.

I'd judge a conjunction with the Sun like any other conjunction.

Do the planets have a similar nature (Sun and Mars) or do they lack compatability (Sun and Nepture)? What sign are they in?
fact is, traditionally as Oddity then underscored
but you chose to ignore Odditys comment on your remark re: Nep for some reason

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

I know we're on the trad board,
but just to clarify a point.

If you use the outer planets, it makes no sense to use combustion.

The greatest affliction is because a planet becomes invisible when it's combust.
The outer planets are always invisible, even when they're not combust.

See the flaw in logic of using both
?

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  #9  
Unread 09-17-2016, 08:30 PM
Jescilito Jescilito is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Combustion is an affliction, but I simply can't consider it as bad an affliction as some make it out to be.

Even though I practice traditional astrology and I use the outer planets like fixed stars.

I'm under the impression the idea of combustion is only in part due to visibility and even among traditional astrologers there was disagreement.

Even Lilly states that a planet must be in the same sign as Sun for it to be combust, though not all astrologers agree on that. I myself don't agree with this.

So if, Sun is at 28 Libra for instance, and Venus at 01 Scorpio, Lilly would not consider Venus combust because It's in a different sign. Regardless of visibility, or proximity to Sun.

I would say an outer planet or a fixed star for that matter are afflicted when Combust.

In fact a close enough conjunction to Sun is beneficial, again regardless of visibility.
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Unread 09-17-2016, 08:42 PM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

Combustion is an affliction, but I simply can't consider it as bad an affliction as some make it out to be.

Even though I practice traditional astrology and I use the outer planets like fixed stars.

I'm under the impression the idea of combustion is only in part due to visibility and even among traditional astrologers there was disagreement.

Even Lilly states that a planet must be in the same sign as Sun for it to be combust, though not all astrologers agree on that. I myself don't agree with this.

So if, Sun is at 28 Libra for instance, and Venus at 01 Scorpio, Lilly would not consider Venus combust because It's in a different sign.
Regardless of visibility, or proximity to Sun.
The word "combust" infers "burning"
so it makes sense that the closer to the Sun the more "combust"
whether in a different sign or not
but as you say, there are different opinions on this issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

I would say an outer planet
or a fixed star for that matter
are afflicted when Combust.
outer planets are irrelevant on this board as it is Traditional board
and
as the rules state clearly:

'.....Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.....'

However fixed stars are a tradtional methodology

so
would be useful to have your reasons re: fixed stars being afflicted by combustion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

In fact a close enough conjunction to Sun is beneficial
again regardless of visibility.

Oddity mentioned that the greatest affliction of combustion is invisibility
however you are probably thinking of "cazimi"
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  #11  
Unread 09-17-2016, 08:53 PM
Jescilito Jescilito is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

And when a planet is cazimi, it's not visible.
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  #12  
Unread 09-17-2016, 11:48 PM
Jescilito Jescilito is offline
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


However fixed stars are a tradtional methodology

so
would be useful to have your reasons re: fixed stars being afflicted by combustion


Lets think about it.

Other than visibility, where is the logic in saying a fixed star can't be combust?

Why in fact, by the very logic of combustion being an affliction due to visibilty, it should apply to a fixed star as well true?

A star Conjunct Sun would certainly not be visible!

I think to a degree, Sun will take on virtue of any planet or fixed star it's conjunct to. Like any planet would, Only unlike a souly benefic planet, Sun hinders to a degree.

Again I don't think combustion is in any way a complete destruction of the planets potential. I think you have to weigh out the factors.
For an example of a Combust planet performing well.

Look at Lilly.

Venus co rules the 7th by interception of Libra,

Taurus on the cusp of the second.

So Venus rules the Second, co rules the 7th, and is completely combust, however strong in Taurus in the 2nd.


"Within months of Wright's death, the newly widowed Ellen made it clear that, having married twice for money, she was now looking to marry someone who would be loving and look after her, regardless of her suitor's status. Lilly took the "audacious" step of proposing himself, and despite her initial protestations that at 25 years of age Lilly was too young, they married in September of that year, keeping their marriage secret from her friends and family for two years.
Lilly describes a contented marriage with Ellen, which continued for six years.Upon her death she left everything to Lilly, of which he reports "it was considerable, very near to the value of one thousand pounds"."
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Last edited by Jescilito; 09-17-2016 at 11:51 PM.
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  #13  
Unread 09-18-2016, 12:13 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

Lets think about it.

Other than visibility, where is the logic in saying a fixed star can't be combust?

Why in fact, by the very logic of combustion being an affliction due to visibilty,
it should apply to a fixed star as well true?

A star Conjunct Sun would certainly not be visible!

No fixed stars are visible during daytime whether conjunct sun or not

by the way
conjunctions to fixed stars are noticeable when conjunct by LATITUDE and/or DECLINATION
and not solely by Longitude
"additional tables pdf" above top left of astro.com chart
provide latitude as well as declination and longitude

REGULUS is one of few if any fixed stars on the ecliptic

VISUAL ASTROLOGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

I think to a degree, Sun will take on virtue of any planet or fixed star it's conjunct to.
Like any planet would, Only unlike a souly benefic planet, Sun hinders to a degree.

Again I don't think combustion is in any way a complete destruction of the planets potential.
I think you have to weigh out the factors.
For an example of a Combust planet performing well.

Look at Lilly.

Venus co rules the 7th by interception of Libra,

Taurus on the cusp of the second.

So Venus rules the Second, co rules the 7th, and is completely combust, however strong in Taurus in the 2nd.


"Within months of Wright's death, the newly widowed Ellen made it clear that, having married twice for money, she was now looking to marry someone who would be loving and look after her, regardless of her suitor's status. Lilly took the "audacious" step of proposing himself, and despite her initial protestations that at 25 years of age Lilly was too young, they married in September of that year, keeping their marriage secret from her friends and family for two years.
Lilly describes a contented marriage with Ellen, which continued for six years.Upon her death she left everything to Lilly, of which he reports "it was considerable, very near to the value of one thousand pounds"."
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Unread 09-18-2016, 01:35 AM
Jescilito Jescilito is offline
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[QUOTE=JUPITERASC;723971]No fixed stars are visible during daytime whether conjunct sun or not

by the way
[COLOR=Navy][B]conjunctions to fixed stars are noticeable when conjunct by LATITUDE and/or DECLINATION
and not solely by Longitude
"additional tables pdf" above top left of astro.com chart
provide latitude as well as declination and longitude

REGULUS is one of few if any fixed stars on the ecliptic

So by your logic, if Mars has a maximum southern latitude of roughly 6 degrees, and Venus greatest northern latitude 9 degrees,
Leaving roughly 15 degrees separation, that would mean they could occupy the same degree tropical longitude and not be conjunct?
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  #15  
Unread 09-18-2016, 02:08 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescilito View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
No fixed stars are visible during daytime whether conjunct sun or not

by the way
conjunctions to fixed stars are noticeable when conjunct by LATITUDE and/or DECLINATION
and not solely by Longitude
"additional tables pdf" above top left of astro.com chart
provide latitude as well as declination and longitude

REGULUS is one of few if any fixed stars on the ecliptic

VISUAL ASTROLOGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao
So by your logic, if Mars has a maximum southern latitude of roughly 6 degrees
and Venus greatest northern latitude 9 degrees,

Leaving roughly 15 degrees separation
that would mean they could occupy the same degree tropical longitude and not be conjunct?

Exactly - conjunct by longitude, but not parallel















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Unread 09-23-2016, 05:11 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

Ok, gang, for the record, there is no reason to disqualify a post simply because it contains a reference to an outer planet. The purpose of the traditional board is to encourage learning of traditional techniques, not to shut down conversation because someone who uses traditional techniques might also be interested in the outer planets. Derailing threads to have a discourse on what constitutes traditional astrology excludes, by its very nature, that kind of discusion.

Planets that are combust are not visible. Planets that are cazimi are a different matter. David, you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
Morinus rejected the idea that combustion was an affliction. His argument was that he had a combust Mercury and if you were reading his book you could see there was nothing wrong with his mind! Others with combust Mercury included Edison and Wittgenstein.
Morinus wasn't wrong; what is left out of this quote is that while every traditional author going as far back as we have recorded disjoined the houses Mercury rules when combust (because let's face it, Mercury is burned so often he's fairly well used to it) from the intellect. The impact of a combust Mercury would be evidenced in those very houses ruled by Mercury. It has long been noted that the closer Mercury is to the Sun, the "smarter" the native is. But it doesn't stop the burning, unless the combustion occurs when Mercury is in his Chariot.
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  #17  
Unread 09-23-2016, 05:12 AM
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Re: Combustion in natal chart - any ideas?

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Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
I quote Morinus and you tell me off for not being traditional. Do you not know who he was?!
Yes, we do know who Morinus was. And you have to admit, he was a radical for his time, no?
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