Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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greybeard

Well-known member
Consider this Zuri

Look at your own Ascendant. Chances are that in tropical you will have one sign rising, in sidereal another. Now the basic sign descriptions are about the same in both systems. So which Ascendant describes you best?

If, because of the 23 degree displacement between the two zodiacs, the sign/house relationships are offset, this also changes the lords of the houses. For example, in tropical I have cancer rising and moon in the 4th is lord of the horoscope; in sidereal I have gemini rising with mercury its lord in the 8th. There should be little difficulty determining which of the two depicts you most accurately because the descriptions they provide are quite different.

The same is true of the derivative houses. If I have an empty 2nd house with tropical Saggitarius on the cusp and Jupiter in the 10th well-conditioned, and have sidereal Scorpio on that cusp with a severly afflicted Mars in the 12th....the pictures these produce are not at all the same and one will be true, the other false.

A person is free to believe what they wish. We can base our opinions (everybody has one) on what we like, what feels good....Or we can establish ourselves in knowledge by trying things out amply enough to give us a sound basis for our choices. You are correct: the major question is, which is effective? Now the question becomes, have you tested and compared sufficiently to reach an informed decision as to whether one system is more effective than the other?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Consider this Zuri
Look at your own Ascendant. Chances are that in tropical you will have one sign rising, in sidereal another. Now the basic sign descriptions are about the same in both systems. So which Ascendant describes you best?...
Click to expand...
Consider also whether your time of birth is reliable - notations of times of birth are notoriously unreliable for very good reasons - such as for example, human error, clock error and so on :smile:
 
Moog

Moog

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Consider this Zuri

Look at your own Ascendant. Chances are that in tropical you will have one sign rising, in sidereal another. Now the basic sign descriptions are about the same in both systems. So which Ascendant describes you best?

If, because of the 23 degree displacement between the two zodiacs, the sign/house relationships are offset, this also changes the lords of the houses. For example, in tropical I have cancer rising and moon in the 4th is lord of the horoscope; in sidereal I have gemini rising with mercury its lord in the 8th. There should be little difficulty determining which of the two depicts you most accurately because the descriptions they provide are quite different.
Click to expand...

And is it the same in all house systems? I believe you favour placidus.

You can't really go just on the ascendant though. You can look at the asc ruler in the 12th and go, oh this person loves their privacy or being in hospital or whatever. But it won't seem true, because they have Sun in the 1st house ruling the 10th, with Rahu in the 10th, or similar, and they are running Sun dasha.
 
Moog

Moog

Well-known member
We're dealing with a very slippery subject. Not only do we have to assay the differences between zodiacs, we have to also distinguish house positions between systems, account for aspectual modifications of planetary expression, account for potential birth errors, and think about temporal expressions of various pieces of the chart as they come to the fore within a person's life.

It's not a trivial thing.
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
Let's see....
In my own example
You would have trouble distinguishing between

1. Cancer Asc--Moon 4th--sign of Moon-- aspects of Moon
2. Gemini Asc --Mercury 8th--sign of Mercury--aspects of Mercury

"insufficient data"?

Run Spot, run. See Spot run.

Error in recording birth time is a constant in astrology and has no bearing here; it applies equally to all charts, systems.

Not only do we have to assay the differences between zodiacs, we have to also distinguish house positions between systems, account for aspectual modifications of planetary expression, account for potential birth errors, and think about temporal expressions of various pieces of the chart as they come to the fore within a person's life.

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theV

theV

Well-known member
My chart fell back some sign in Hindu I am virgo in western bur leo in hindu I am sagi moon in western but scorpio moon in hindu
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
The sidereal zodiac is about 23-1/2 degrees "behind" the tropical. You simply add or subtract that value to convert.

Example from today's chart at the moment of writing this:

Sun in tropical at 23 Scorpio 47'50"
Sun in sidereal at 00 Scorpio 45'20"

Difference as of today: 23*02'30"...This is using the Lahiri Ayanamsa, which is the ayanamsa officially recognized by the government of India. Other ayanamsas will yield slightly different results.

If you want to convert from tropical to sidereal you subtract 23*02' from all chart factors; from sidereal to tropical you add the same value.

Now, if you want to determine for yourself which zodiac seems more "accurate" look at yourself in the mirror. Does "Sun in Leo" or "Sun in Virgo" describe you best? Adjacent signs such as these two are quite different in character. Virgo is Common Earth; Leo, Fixed Fire.

You can do the same thing for your Moon and Ascendant, and with the combinations of the three points you should develop two very different portraits of yourself, one of which you will feel actually describes you.
 
Z

Zuri

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Consider this Zuri

Look at your own Ascendant. Chances are that in tropical you will have one sign rising, in sidereal another. Now the basic sign descriptions are about the same in both systems. So which Ascendant describes you best?

If, because of the 23 degree displacement between the two zodiacs, the sign/house relationships are offset, this also changes the lords of the houses. For example, in tropical I have cancer rising and moon in the 4th is lord of the horoscope; in sidereal I have gemini rising with mercury its lord in the 8th. There should be little difficulty determining which of the two depicts you most accurately because the descriptions they provide are quite different.

The same is true of the derivative houses. If I have an empty 2nd house with tropical Saggitarius on the cusp and Jupiter in the 10th well-conditioned, and have sidereal Scorpio on that cusp with a severly afflicted Mars in the 12th....the pictures these produce are not at all the same and one will be true, the other false.

A person is free to believe what they wish. We can base our opinions (everybody has one) on what we like, what feels good....Or we can establish ourselves in knowledge by trying things out amply enough to give us a sound basis for our choices. You are correct: the major question is, which is effective? Now the question becomes, have you tested and compared sufficiently to reach an informed decision as to whether one system is more effective than the other?
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's because I was born on a zodiac sign cusp, and born only nine minutes later than the previous Ascendant. However, a tropical astrologer and sidereal astrologer have separately reviewed my chart. There is about 90% agreement between them regarding my chart. Therefore, I'm not seeing this huge difference when reviewing the totality of my chart analysis under the two systems.
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
Quite possible.
If both systems work...and I'm sure they do,
Then the results they give should correspond.

It's what I've been saying all along...If it works, use it. The test is consistent and reliable results.

Astrologers arguing over these things is pointless.

You have tested the two systems by using astrologers to do it, and have found they both yield similar results. Case closed.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Error in recording birth time is a constant in astrology and has no bearing here; it applies equally to all charts, systems.
Click to expand...
Good that you agree that 'error in recording birth time is a constant in astrology'!

NEVERTHELESS the fact that it 'applies equally to all charts, systems' DOES NOT in any way negate the fact that ascendants that are incorrect/inaccurate because of incorrect/inaccurate notation of time of birth make it impossible to assess 'which ascendant describes you best'

- and furthermore, that's precisely why there is an astrological technique known as Rectification :smile:
 
NancyS

NancyS

Well-known member
byjove said:
Hello, may I ask how northerly/southerly you are positioned in the world? The vast majority of equal house users that I know of are in northern Europe, especially the UK. Also, is it popular where you live?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Byjove,

I live in the tropics (Hawaii), so the houses here are pretty even no matter how you slice em. I way born considerably north of here in the summer, so my MC would be early in the 9th house in an Equal system.

Not sure what's popular here in the low latitudes. Also I'm not quite sure what to make of all of this, all I know is "up" is "up"; and the confusion multiplies when one thinks about declinations, etc.

~Nancy
 
Moog

Moog

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Let's see....
In my own example
You would have trouble distinguishing between

1. Cancer Asc--Moon 4th--sign of Moon-- aspects of Moon
2. Gemini Asc --Mercury 8th--sign of Mercury--aspects of Mercury

"insufficient data"?
Click to expand...

You do seem ostensibly more Geminian than Cancerian. And the 8th certainly would link to a strong intellectual interest in occult science.

Nothing about your surface as it presents itself here suggests Moon in the 4th as an ascendant ruler, though it wouldn't really, would it, to be fair.

Error in recording birth time is a constant in astrology and has no bearing here; it applies equally to all charts, systems.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you agree, it is always relevant.

Not only do we have to assay the differences between zodiacs, we have to also distinguish house positions between systems, account for aspectual modifications of planetary expression, account for potential birth errors, and think about temporal expressions of various pieces of the chart as they come to the fore within a person's life.

{Deleted by moderator}
Click to expand...

Whoever originally said that certainly must be a handsome young man :lol:
 
R

Rian

New member
I've looked at a few variations of mine and my gf's charts, placidus, equal houses, whole signs, and sidereal, and have been to the renowned professional astrologer Charlotte Benson. She's the one who first introduced me to Vedic astrology. It's sidereal, and I think uses equal houses. It really opened me up to a whole new realm of astrology, namely because it shifts everything over almost one sign from the placidus method. But it makes perfect sense, because the placidus system bases their houses off of imaginary boundaries, but the sidereal method bases them off of real interstellar bodies. But more importantly than that, is that the new chart, makes even more sense to me. I can relate to the new sign positions so much better now, it's incredible. Not even that, but my girlfriends chart makes so much more sense now as well. The one downside to using vedic astrology though was that the chart was square, and did not show any aspects, so we'd have to reference a natal wheel chart constantly.

But, something else was off. I could relate to the placidus system's house placements better. I figured there was also something off about using whole sign, or equal houses. I never liked the idea. It just seemed like cutting corners to me. Houses would get moved around, and planets rearranged, just for some extra simplicity. I want them to be where they're supposed to be, even if a sign overlaps a house or two.

I valiantly made all of the rough calculations in my head, until one day, I discovered astro.com's free chart calculator. This can get very customizable. It allows you to create the popular natal wheel chart (which shows the detailed aspects), while using sidereal calculations (which shows more accurate sign placement), with the placidus house placements (which shows more accurate house placement).

In my opinion, this is the most accurate chart I have ever stumbled upon, and I hope it helps all of you too.
 
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A

Alice McDermott

Well-known member
Rian said:
But it makes perfect sense, because the placidus system bases their houses off of imaginary boundaries, but the sidereal method bases them off of real interstellar bodies.
Click to expand...

Almost the reverse Rian - sidereal astrology is based on constellations - which are just a man made arrangement of stars that was set up centuries ago. Chinese astrologers arrange the same stars in quite different constellations.

Tropical astrology is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. When the Sun (from the point of view of the Earth) is at 00N00 declination on the equator, this point is 0 Aries, when it is at 23N26 declination, this point is 0 Cancer, when it is back on the Equator at 00S00 declination, this point is 0 Libra and when it is at 23S26 declination, this point is 0 Capricorn. The other signs are calculated accordingly.

So tropical astrology is derived from clear mathematical calculations of the Earth's orbit and I think probably maps the Earth's energy field.

You might be interested in Dieter Koch's article on this subject: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm

I valiantly made all of the rough calculations in my head, until one day, I discovered astro.com's free chart calculator. This can get very customizable. It allows you to create the popular natal wheel chart (which shows the detailed aspects), while using sidereal calculations (which shows more accurate sign placement), with the placidus house placements (which shows more accurate house placement).
Click to expand...

The system you have discovered by yourself is a system presented by the great Indian astrologer Krishnamurti Paddhati and is called the "KP" system, you might be interested in googling it and seeing what you think.

Alice
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Alice McDermott said:

Almost the reverse Rian
- sidereal astrology is based on constellations -
which are just a man made arrangement of stars that was set up centuries ago.
Chinese astrologers arrange the same stars in quite different constellations
Click to expand...

QUOTE


'…..man did not see pictures in the night skies
and then circumscribe the constellations
according to artistic vision.
Instead
man noted that people born when certain groupings of stars were rising
or setting
or directly overhead
exhibited certain characteristics in common :smile:


These characteristics seemed animalistic,
bird like,
aquatic
heroic
or ultra humanistic.

Once this correlation was made,
the symbolic mind of man
assigned SHAPE to groupings of stars
for easy reference.

Some shapes were earthly, human

some creative fantasies

but each shape or constellation
represented symbolically
THE OBSERVED EFFECTS OF THAT GROUP OF STARS
when manifested in the life of a person...' Robert Huntz Granite

Because of a "wobble" of the Earth's axis of rotation, the position of the celestial poles changes slowly with time - which is a phenomenon known as precession. The constellation-free zone is not centered exactly on the south celestial pole, instead the uncharted area is centered on the place in the sky where the south celestial pole would have been around the year 2000 B.C. This date matches the time of the Babylonians and Sumerians. So it seems likely that the Greek constellations originated with the Sumerians and Babylonians. From there, knowledge of the constellations somehow made its way to Egypt - perhaps through the Minoans on Crete who had contact with the Babylonians and settled in Egypt after an explosive volcanic eruption destroyed their civilization, and from there early Greek scholars first heard about the constellations and wrote about them.

The earliest known efforts to catalogue the stars date to cuneiform texts (i.e. Sumerian/Babylonian/Assyrian texts and artefacts)and artefacts dating back roughly 6000 years. These remnants, found in the valley of the Euphrates River, suggest that the ancients observing the heavens saw the lion, the bull, and the scorpion in the stars.

here's a link to an interesting British Museum web page regarding the origins of writing in Mesopotamia
http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/writing/story/sto_set.html


Proof the Babylonian Zodiac was the original astrological zodiac was established 14 May 1949 when the mysterious origins of traditional exaltation degrees of planets in the zodiac (hypsomata) was solved. The figures proved to be sidereal longitudes of planets at their heliacal risings and settings for lunar year 786 BC, the mean value of the ayanamsa being 14.5 degrees. This reduced to the epoch -100 (101BC), equated to 4.6 degrees, thereby agreeing with what was determined from Babylonian and Egyptian records. The fact the ayanamsa for the hypsomata agreed with that from these ancient records set the seal of authenticity on its discovery.

PRIMER OF SIDEREAL ASTROLOGY by Cyril Fagan :smile:
Alice McDermott said:
Tropical astrology is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. When the Sun (from the point of view of the Earth) is at 00N00 declination on the equator, this point is 0 Aries, when it is at 23N26 declination, this point is 0 Cancer, when it is back on the Equator at 00S00 declination, this point is 0 Libra and when it is at 23S26 declination, this point is 0 Capricorn. The other signs are calculated accordingly.

So tropical astrology is derived from clear mathematical calculations of the Earth's orbit and I think probably maps the Earth's energy field.

You might be interested in Dieter Koch's article on this subject: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm


Alice
Click to expand...
Both
SIDEREAL astrology
and
TROPICAL astrology
measure the orbit of Earth around the Sun

~ each simply uses an alternative method of measurement :smile:

i.e.
video illustrates EARTHS MOTION AROUND THE SUN ~ NOT AS SIMPLE AS MANY THINK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related

Hipparchus, when compiling his star catalogue
plotted the positions of the fixed stars from the equinoctial and solstitial points for the year 139BC, approximately
and Posidonius improved on this idea by making the zodiac as a whole commence with the vernal point fixed in 0 Aries.
This was the birth of the modern version of the Tropical zodiac.
Before Hipparchus's time it had no existence,
and it was entirely a Greek innovation
based on Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.) which "...divides the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month
is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." Dr. Robert Powell HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Zodiac-Robert-Powell/dp/1597311529
 
N

nbennett

Active member
I have long been an advocate of the equal house system. In the last 20 years there has been a trend back to Whole Sign houses per the Greeks. Just remember that when they had trouble measuring the degree on the Asc and when most people did not know their birth time, Whole Sign was used as a good enough estimate. With better measuring instruments like the astrolabe, the degree on the Asc was possible. Just consider that the Eq Hses are a refinement to Whole Sign. Another point, even if one uses Whole Sign, is that aspects are always measured from the Asc, which is a default form of Whole Sign. Also remember that the cusp is the apex or center of the house, not the beginning. Most of this is analyzed in my book on Amazon, Foundations of Astrology.
 
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