No such thing as a bad chart?

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petosiris

Banned
Also at worst you have two deterministic influences - your temperament and the environment. You are just a human after all that can die at any moment from a gazillion things and is dependent on many more, but you still have your own nature determined by biology to counteract certain harmful societal or upbringing influences, because you are not a blank slate. No one should confuse the two, since if that was the case, the completely passive person shouldn't be held responsible for anything.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
petosiris said:
I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we possess free will to choose our family or environment, but more like I can choose to go the doctor even if I am predestined (which in itself is a unfalsifiable concept) to have a certain disease.
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Someone said, and it's a commonly-held view, that we choose our life.
 
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petosiris

Banned
petosiris said:
If you mom told you are a blank slate, then that is unfortunate. People with an internal locus of control on average report greater happiness, independence and show more success. :sad:
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I admit that itself may be predetermined, but that means it's more healthy to do somethings as if they are undetermined, which should be a false belief? :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
psycles3 said:
If you do not believe that you chose your time, date and place of birth before you were born, i can see why you might think there are "bad" charts. Life as a human being is chosen by your soul, as are your parents and health, wealth, skijulls and proclivities. Have faith that you know/knew what you were doing.
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You don't KNOW these things. You BELIEVE them. I hold my own beliefs, and they work for me, thank you.
 
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petosiris

Banned
psycles3 said:
If you do not believe that you chose your time, date and place of birth before you were born, i can see why you might think there are "bad" charts. Life as a human being is chosen by your soul, as are your parents and health, wealth, skills and proclivities. Have faith that you know/knew what you were doing.
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Uhm, choosing rape, murder and abuse. Some souls are quite masochistic. :unsure:
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
I do not believe in free will, in the sense that I have the power to change myself and my destiny by dint of will.

I can choose chocolate over vanilla. That sort of free will is a mirage.

If there really were free will, astrology would have been discarded as useless long long ago.
 
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petosiris

Banned
greybeard said:
I do not believe in free will, in the sense that I have the power to change myself and my destiny by dint of will. I can choose chocolate over vanilla. That sort of free will is a mirage.

If there really were free will, astrology would have been discarded as useless long long ago.
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Not really. Astrology, even traditional, can function with partial determinism. I don't think you can predict whether I am going to get vanilla over chocolate, since the universals of astrology probably only have partial influence on particulars. Ptolemy says:

''And yet, since it is obvious that, if we happen to have cooled ourselves against heat in general, we shall suffer less from it, similar measures can prove effective against particular forces which increase this particular temperament to a disproportionate amount of heat. For the cause of this error is the difficulty and unfamiliarity of particular prognostication, a reason which in most other situations as well brings about disbelief. And since for the most part the resisting faculty is not coupled with the prognostic, because so perfect a disposition is rare, and since the force of nature takes its course without hindrance when the primary natures are concerned, an opinion has been produced that absolutely all future events are inevitable and unescapable'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1A*.html#3

In other words most things are outside of our control, but that doesn't mean that everything is outside of our control.

Also astrology is capable of being useful with free will:
But, I think, just as with prognostication, even if it be not entirely infallible, at least its possibilities have appeared worthy of the highest regard, so too in the case of a defensive practice, even though it does not furnish a remedy for everything, its authority in some instances at least, however few or unimportant, should be welcomed and prized and regarded as profitable in no ordinary sense. - ibid.

In other words one can go visit the doctor in the case of impending danger.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Manilius had something to say about fate vs. free will too.

Of course he was a Stoic. But then so am I.
 
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petosiris

Banned
greybeard said:
I have no cause to know whether it will be chocolate or vanilla.

Nor have we cause to quibble over mistaken assumptions.
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You have causes that make you a human. The emergent human is not entirely reducible, since the whole is something different from the parts. The human can then also be a cause.
 
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petosiris

Banned
On topic, in Valens there is a thing that is called the ''basis/foundation of the nativity'', generally indicated by the state of the triplicity rulers of the sect light, or the nativity itself.

''<Forecast> according to the basis of the nativity for the rich, the middle class, the toilers, the poor, and the craftsmen.''

''On the contrary, generally one star is found to be ruler of the basis of the nativity (i.e. noble, average, base-born) from its beginning (or that one star activates the influences of the rest). Another star is the ruler of the remaining factors.''

''Another person became a ruler, preeminent among the masses. When the same chronocratorship happens again, and if the basis of the nativity is good, he will receive great and distinguished offices. If the basis is average, the native will associate with rulers or he will have the appearance of rule or preeminence.''

''If this transmission coincides with the first chronocratorship, without question there will be inheritances and great benefits proportional to the basis of the nativity.''

''If the basis of the nativity is found to be characteristic of one living an inactive, isolated life, varied and surprising activities during the transmission of the chronocratorships or in the configuring of transits should not be forecast. Furthermore, those who are entirely fortunate will not be harmed by malefics entering operative places, nor will the humble be helped by benefics—all because of the overall predisposition <of the nativity>, which partial influences cannot change.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
 
ardentika

ardentika

Well-known member
I think you need to dig into science and psychology because you are ramming your head in a wall.

Scientifically is proven that your brain/unconsciousness makes a decision about 5 seconds before you think you made it. That in a sense proves predestination . However , your subconscious mind is still you. How you deal with that is your choice.

A life without free will seems depressivr to me and victimized . I trust my subconscious mind and I trust it loves me and wants the best for me hence I try to surrender to it .

I highly doubt some God makes decisions for you lol. It's just easier to not have free will cos then you don't need to take responsibility for your mistakes and failures . So many people chose that perspective . Sadly that's not the case.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
One day I mailed an important letter. I ran a chart on the mailing. Saturn rising and Rx...the question is dead.

A few days later the letter came back undeliverable: It was a dead letter.

If the universe takes an interest in a letter, I suspect it also notices you and me.

Question: Was that chart about the letter itself, or about the outcome of the action of mailing the letter?
 
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