Modern Astrology IS "Traditional"

IleneK

IleneK

Premium Member
david starling said:
Sounds like the Term-lord arrangement preempts, or at least strongly competes, with the concept that the Signs themselves contribute Qualities to the Significators. It also ups the stakes on finding the right Ayanamsa for Siderealists,....
Click to expand...

Like this is none of my business since I am staying out of this conversation for the most part.

But David, this is such elementary concept.
I don’t know much about traditional astrology, am very new and quite limited in scholarlyship. But to my understanding, the term lord elucidates, refines, augments a sign’s influence on asignificator. The term lord does not “preempt” or “compete”; the term lord IS a constituent part of the sign.

It is hard for me to understand why you would choose to assert yourself so strongly in the discussion of traditional astrology when being unschooled in what seems to be such fundamental aspects of how things work in that line of thought. And this is just a gentle FYI (for what it is worth :) ): I think it may be this misplaced strong assertion, reflected by such notions as “competitiveness” or “preemptiveness” or “upping the stakes,” that gives the flavor or appearance of trolling?
 
Last edited:
P

petosiris

Banned
I think it may be this misplaced strong assertion, reflected by such notions as “competitiveness” or “preemptiveness” or “upping the stakes,” that gives the flavor or appearance of trolling?
Click to expand...

Basically, he is making a ''hot topic'' thread disputing the core of traditional astrology and its name, and on top he is bringing up one of the most controversial and personal topics in astrology in every post, usually extraneous. What are his intentions? Is he trying to learn traditional astrology?
 
Last edited:
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
petosiris said:
He did wrote parts of the next book ''just like a father who, weighed down by illness at the end of his life, leaves his last brief commandments to his children before the silence of death creeps on him''. It is not uncommon for people like that to utter warnings and prophetic-like statements.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but he wouldn't have foreseen much beyond his own time, place, and cultural context. He couldn't possibly have imagined our own technologically advanced , information age, interconnected world. Too many enormous dissimilarities to mention.
 
P

petosiris

Banned
waybread said:
Sorry, but he wouldn't have foreseen much beyond his own time, place, and cultural context. He couldn't possibly have imagined our own technologically advanced , information age, interconnected world. Too many enormous dissimilarities to mention.
Click to expand...

It is a simple allegory waybread, it is like saying that Jesus' parables are irrelevant today because he, or whoever wrote them, did not know about the Internet.
 
Last edited:
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
petosiris said:
That is incorrect, or at least only approximate. If the tropical zodiac was based on daylight, you would have had slightly different tropical zodiacs for different latitudes. Anyways, Ptolemy was clearly basing his position on the seasons. Why the day is not equal to the night at the equinox - https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/equinox-not-equal.html
Click to expand...

This is correct for the northern hemisphere within the equator and arctic circle, which is the part of the planet the ancient astrologers worked on.

You know the difference between climatic seasons and astronomical seasons based on the sun's apparent motion.

I have heard the shadow argument before, but it is shaky, most especially since the longest period of daylight shifts dramatically with latitude and completely breaks near the Equator.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I missed the "shadow argument," which is not one I made.



From what I gather, Vettius Valens had it wrong by 4 days and degrees. Perhaps we can define ''easy'' as ''so that by the mid second century dates that are the latest cited in Valens’ treatise his theoretical equinox would be about four days later than the true equinox.'' - Jones, A. (Ed.). (2009). Ptolemy in perspective: use and criticism of his work from antiquity to the nineteenth century (Vol. 23). Springer Science & Business Media.

And by the way, solstices are much harder to observe than equinoxes. Perhaps you can familiarize us with the ancient methods that easily measure the equinoxes and solstices?
Click to expand...

I did so for you multiple times on a previous thread. Were there parts of the explanation you misunderstood or forgot?

As I stated back-when, if you live in an area of much topography with a north-south running land feature like a ridge, it's really simple to track the sun's apparent motion north and south.

Ancient henges are believed to have been observatories, aligned to the midsummer sun.
file:///C:/Users/lguelke/Downloads/1920-Article%20Text-7642-4-10-20171208.pdf
 
Last edited:
P

petosiris

Banned
As I stated back-when, if you live in an area of much topography with a north-south running land feature like a ridge, it's really simple to track the sun's apparent motion north and south.

Ancient henges are believed to have been observatories, aligned to the midsummer sun.
file:///C:/Users/lguelke/Downloads/1920-Article%20Text-7642-4-10-20171208.pdf
Click to expand...

The link you give is on your PC, I can't access it. Anyways if it is so easy to align a few stones, I wonder why Vettius Valens had it wrong by 4 days? I am not sure you are aware how little does the Sun move north in a day. I mean sure, you can tell the equinox roughly, but for the tropical zodiac you require knowledge of the exact degree.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Basically, he is making a ''hot topic'' thread
disputing the core of traditional astrology and its name, and on top
he is bringing up one of the most controversial
and personal topics in astrology in every post, usually extraneous.
What are his intentions? Is he trying to learn traditional astrology?
Click to expand...
If he can afford reasonably priced excellent translations of ancient texts
some only now available as recently translated as this year :smile:
then a good source is https://www.bendykes.com/


HOWEVER


david starling said:
I get my Astrology
from the Muse herself, along with information
from other Astrologers
which I carefully consider, based
on what my connection with the Muse reveals to me.

We Astrologers each have our own such connection, and what is revealed to each as True
varies from one to another.
Anyone looking for Absolute Truth
that applies to all, in exactly the same manner, should try Modern Science, or a Religion.
Click to expand...
In preference to studying traditional texts
or completing a course of traditional astrology study
he has this forum
other astrologers
and a Muse

david starling said:
Brother Sun, Sister Moon.
Click to expand...

canticle-fb.jpg

david starling said:
I know of no Ancient Moon goddesswho was featured as a mother.

Isis was, in my estimation an Earth Mother, with an affinity for the Moon, and relates to Taurus.
Jupiter was the father of the Olympian gods, and kept order among his clan.

Jupiter as father-figure has worked well for me
.
Click to expand...
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Explain, please.
Click to expand...

You first. Your analogy was totally inapt. Ask a believing Christian if you don't believe me.

On the matter of the sun's apparent motion, I don't get what you don't get. I live in the Canadian Rockies. My husband and I have a nice year-round view from our deck of the sun setting on the ridge to the west, across the valley. (At least when we're not choking in forest fire smoke, like we've been lately.) We often remark around the solstices at how far north (or south) along the ridge the setting sun seems to have moved. It wouldn't take much extra trouble for someone to go to the solstice places that we observe on the ridge crest and mark them with monuments or bonfires, as was often done in traditional societies. If I were really obsessive I could track the setting sun's motion on a sketch of our ridge and thereby make a primitive solar calendar.

Your horoscope is, after all, topocentric.

It's also easy to determine that the sun's apparent motion is faster at some times of year than at others. Right now (from mid August to the equinox) we're in a period of more rapidly shortening periods of daylight, whereas it's a slower process from the summer solstice to mid-August.
 
Last edited:
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
petosiris said:
The link you give is on your PC, I can't access it. Anyways if it is so easy to align a few stones, I wonder why Vettius Valens had it wrong by 4 days? I am not sure you are aware how little does the Sun move north in a day. I mean sure, you can tell the equinox roughly, but for the tropical zodiac you require knowledge of the exact degree.
Click to expand...

I think I see the problem. I've never suggested that you could calculated a horoscope in this way. Merely that the dates of the eqinoxes and solstices are not difficult to determine.

I don't think anyone suggested that lining up the standing rocks of the major henges was easy. Have you been to Avebury or Stonehenge?
 
P

petosiris

Banned
I think I see the problem. I've never suggested that you could calculated a horoscope in this way. Merely that the dates of the eqinoxes and solstices are not difficult to determine
Click to expand...

You do realize that Jones found that Valens has his theoretical equinox 4 days before the real equinox because of chart calculations and a given date. I don't think you know what you are talking about. The Sun has an average motion of about 59 minutes per day, not deviating by more than 5 minutes either way. If you know the date of the equinox, you know that is the first degree of Aries in the Ptolemaic zodiac, or the eighth degree of Aries in Valens'.
 
Last edited:
D

david starling

Well-known member
The internet has information about Hellenistic Astrology. Here's some insight regarding the Thema Mundi:
horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/6/11/the-thema-mundi/
There are other links as well, including a formal debate between Mods and Trads, which looks promising.
 
Last edited:
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
The internet has information about Hellenistic Astrology.

Here's some insight regarding the Thema Mundi:
horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/6/11/the-thema-mundi/
Click to expand...
THEMA MUNDI - previous discussions on our forum :smile:
example
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099

tsmall said:
I did a forum search, and couldn't find this topic as a discussion of what the Thema is, which doesn't surprise me since it seems to belong only to the realm of traditional astrology...but I wanted to post it here because so many members seem hesitant to visit that forum.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Thema is mythically considered the chart of the world, and literally was historically used as a teaching tool for astrologers. In it you can find the reasons for the domicile rulers, the exaltations, the planetary joys, the nature of the aspects, sect...on and on it goes.

And here is one picture I found that graphically shows the Thema

So, let's consider. Most astrologers (as far as I know both traditional and modern) consider Aries to be the "natural" first house. Why? Especially if Cancer rises in the Thema, that would make Cancer the real "natural" first house, ruled by the Moon, and when we think of people...how we evolved out of the sea (water), how we have always considered the Moon as the mother...this makes sense to me. Leo as the natural second house? What does the second signify? The resources that support the body (ASC/1st?) Further, ancient astrology considered that the Moon did represent the body...again this makes sense if cancer rises.

I don't have a lot of time right now (hey, three girls and a zoo and all that) but am interested to hear any other members ideas on this?
Click to expand...
 
Top