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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #201  
Unread 12-29-2014, 03:06 PM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Yes, the notion that the Hellenes were predominately using Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac is simply wrong. They were using Babylonian tables which were Sidereal. Valens himself used something other than the Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac to measure his longitudes as evidenced by his comments on the position of the Equinox. Of course, this doesn't make either zodiac any more 'right' than the other, but we should at least try to split the significations derived from the Sidereal from those that are Tropical. As far as I can see, that potentially doesn't leave Tropical astrologers much to work with, but they've been fine so far. I guess the next few generations will really see the difference as we get a larger and larger degree dufference


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  #202  
Unread 12-30-2014, 03:48 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

As to which zodiac Valens used, I think it is important to think philosophically about such statements as "equally rising", "equal power" and the ascensions of the zoidia. While some statements suggest sidereal thinking, it is a mathematical fact that zoidia are equally rising (or have the same ascensional times) only in a tropical zodiac of 0 degrees. It is also however true that there are some mathematical misconceptions about the ascensions as shown in the tables which conspicuously round off to 60/180 degrees. The actual correct values of course depend upon latitude.

One has to be careful about the statements about system A, or system B (offsetting the zodiac by 8, 10 or even 15 degrees). Valens often states things that he doesn't actually do (such as loosing of the bond to the trigon instead of the opposition). I have gone through several of Valens chart examples in Delphic Oracle (software that I wrote) and even though many examples have planets off by several degrees, often some planets are conspicuously correct if one considers 0 degrees (tropical).

The problem is that in Valens time, the issue of zodiac (sidereal or tropical) was not well defined, so although they used star positions to help fix positions, their thinking was actually a mix of both.
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  #203  
Unread 12-30-2014, 08:42 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I agree, there was definitely a mixture of both ideas, but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries. The accuracy of theit calculations compared to modern software doesn't change that.
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  #204  
Unread 12-30-2014, 09:20 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
...but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries...
Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...
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  #205  
Unread 12-30-2014, 09:40 AM
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Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...
Yes, I'm aware of that. I have no problem in pointing out mistakes of past authors while bearing in mind that I am fortunate to exist in a time if bountiful source material and ease of accurate calculation. That said, I was specifically talking of Valens with my comments about the Equinix and also I do acknowledge tge Hellenes were mixing apples and oranges with their use of equal risings and antiscia and such things. As I said though, if you choose a Tropical zodiac and its mathematical peculiarities, then you have a hard time explaining other sign attributes.
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  #206  
Unread 01-29-2016, 12:42 PM
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Question Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 1521 orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?
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  #207  
Unread 01-29-2016, 06:23 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 1521 orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?
Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).
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  #208  
Unread 01-30-2016, 03:13 AM
zuojun1991 zuojun1991 is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by zoidsoft View Post
Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).
Thanks for your answer! Really appreciate it.
I agree to pay attention to all of Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune. But some guys in this post before said hyleg and alcocoden show the least longevity which can be prolonged by modern medical treatment. I'm a little confused. And bounds forming constitution never showed up in this longevity topic!
If my sun can't be hyleg, neither my masculine moon in 1st house. I'm conjunctional, so Asc can be hyleg, which conjucts lord sun. Sun is alcocoden, which conjuncts Jupiter (combustion) and Moon (rays). Sun gives the most longevity. Though Jupiter is combustion and moon rays, jupiter has triplicity and moon conjuncts Regulus and both in first house. I assume they can at least add some yrs.
So my longevity could be 120+? Or even 150+?
Virgo Fortune in 1st house conjuncts virgo Mercury (ruler, joys) and Venus. Can they add some more? BTW, Aquarius saturn in 6th house aspects no planet.
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Last edited by zuojun1991; 01-31-2016 at 11:50 AM.
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  #209  
Unread 01-31-2016, 11:12 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Have added my chart.
Chart needs to be uploaded
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  #210  
Unread 01-31-2016, 11:51 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thanks, uploaded this time
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  #211  
Unread 02-18-2016, 01:40 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Hi,Curtis
Just purchased your Delphi Oracle, it's amazing!!! I'm so excited.
The transit Uranus in 9th house trines my ascendent Leo sun just these days. And the profection goes to my 1ST house this year. I'm becoming a little muscular and long trip is calling all the time.
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  #212  
Unread 02-18-2016, 01:44 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

There are video's on my youtube channel showing how I use the program researching various charts:

http://www.youtube.com/zoidsoft
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  #213  
Unread 02-18-2016, 01:56 PM
zuojun1991 zuojun1991 is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thanks
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  #214  
Unread 02-25-2016, 01:35 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I'm confused. how is Amy Winehouse's moon the hyleg if its in detriment?
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  #215  
Unread 09-01-2016, 12:59 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron? Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me
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  #216  
Unread 09-01-2016, 02:16 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron?
Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me

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  #217  
Unread 03-12-2017, 04:00 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I have a question about this topic. Can someone help me?
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  #218  
Unread 03-14-2017, 04:22 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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I have a question about this topic. Can someone help me?
Whether or not someone can help you depends on the question.
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  #219  
Unread 09-22-2017, 12:43 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

In my chart sun can be hyleg and alcocoden but mars is in the same sign aries is. Mars the alcocoden in this chart?
Thanks
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  #220  
Unread 01-09-2018, 09:22 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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I can not decide if Mars is mine Hyleg or Mercury. Help please -.-
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  #221  
Unread 05-15-2018, 03:51 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
One has to be careful about the statements about system A, or system B
Take care children, sidereal longitudes are dangerous! The equally rising table comes from the Babylonians. As you said, they are clearly round off for a klima and schematicism in a sidereal zodiac. It does not mean that they were tropical astrologers, just that they were also observing the seasons and daylight. (That means they were taking seasonal/''tropical'' considerations in a sidereal zodiac. The Babylonians calculated the rising times not for the calculation of horoscope, but for calendrical reasons according to Francesca Rochberg.) For example in the sidereal zodiac today Aquarius and Pisces are counter-antiscia (like-ascending) and Aries and Leo are antiscia (like-empowered). Those are extensions of the aspect doctrine which also has like-engirding signs like Aries and Scorpio. I remind that the antiscia the majority of Hellenistic astrologers used is clearly non-tropical - having Gemini and Leo as antiscia rather than Cancer and Gemini, because the equinox was thought somewhere within Aries, rather than at the interstice.

As for the calculations of ancient horoscopes - From the first century to the first half of the fourth there are no more than one or two data points that could be interpreted as tropical longitudes, and these are just as likely to be errors. - p. 17 - Jones, A. (2010). Ancient rejection and adoption of Ptolemy’s frame of reference for longitudes. In Ptolemy in Perspective (pp. 11-44). Springer, Dordrecht.

I am sure one error is in Valens, as I was only able to get the tropical chart. However it is clear from the rest that he is using sidereal longitudes.

Quote:
3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.
Is it ethical to predict marriage, children and good times for one who is going to be under threat in a certain period before it?

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  #222  
Unread 05-15-2018, 04:14 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Take care children, sidereal longitudes are dangerous! The equally rising table comes from the Babylonians. As you said, they are clearly round off for schematicism in a sidereal zodiac. It does not mean that they were tropical astrologers, just that they were also observing the seasons and daylight. (That means they were taking seasonal/''tropical'' considerations in a sidereal zodiac.) For example in the sidereal zodiac today Aquarius and Pisces are counter-antiscia (like-ascending) and Aries and Leo are antiscia (like-empowered). Those are extensions of the aspect doctrine which also has like-engirding signs like Aries and Scorpio. I remind that the antiscia the majority of Hellenistic astrologers used is clearly non-tropical - having Gemini and Leo as antiscia rather than Cancer and Gemini, because the equinox was thought somewhere within Aries, rather than as the beginning of it.

As for the calculations of ancient horoscopes - From the first century to the first half of the fourth there are no more than one or two data points that could be interpreted as tropical longitudes, and these are just as likely to be errors. - p. 17 - Jones, A. (2010). Ancient rejection and adoption of Ptolemy’s frame of reference for longitudes. In Ptolemy in Perspective (pp. 11-44). Springer, Dordrecht.

I am sure one error is in Valens, as I was only able to get the tropical chart. However it is clear from the rest that he is using sidereal longitudes.

Is it ethical to predict marriage, children and good times for one who is going to be under threat in a certain period before it?
The furore raised by MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628&highlight=morality
inspired the creation of
Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those
In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...light=morality

Paul_ decided to Close his Account and states his reasons
on the MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread
however, many of his comments no longer remain
having been deleted
nevertheless
I reiterated Paul_'s remarks that
it is not unusual for members to request information regarding
astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects.
Asking a relationship Horary question
is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions
Obviously then, as Paul_ highlighted
because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset
if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil
/negligible/unlikely
- and given that not everyone believes in astrology
and many are simply curious -
and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer is qualified to tell them
their future relationship prospects

THEN
(A) are astrologers morally justified
in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
if that is their opinion of the chart in question?

AND IF
an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship
within the next few months or so

AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED
and the client became depressed
Then
(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting
that future relationship prospects are excellent?
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  #223  
Unread 09-07-2019, 01:21 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Hi there. May I ask what we do if the Alcocoden makes no aspect whatsoever to the Hyleg? The aspect that scores the highest point is triplicty i.e - Mars has triplicity in Pisces, but Mars is in weak position in 12th house and also by sign? What then if there is no aspect, may someone advise? Thanks in advance.
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