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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #151  
Unread 10-11-2013, 07:10 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

The methodology and concepts discussed on this thread all arise from Traditional Western astrology, and Uranus, Pluto (and Neptune) were not yet discovered when this technique as originated: so, the answer from the historical and Traditionalist perspective is no.

(However, just because a method was developed at one time in history, does not necessarily mean it cannot be used with additional factors at a later time: so from my perspective the answer to your question is yes: however, such an application is outside of the material allowed to be discussed on this particular Forum-which deals exclusively with Traditional Western astrological matters-and so no further comment will be made, here)

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  #152  
Unread 10-11-2013, 07:10 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

This is a traditional method so modern planets were never exist to the ancient astrologers for their examination of effectiveness.

If you only use traditional planets, it will work well, I believe. When I read regular charts, I see both traditional and modern always see the same thing.
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  #153  
Unread 10-11-2013, 07:22 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thank you dr. farr and poyi....

I'm sure you both know why I am asking....but I want to find my own answer so no one has to tell me. I appreciate the guidance.

My next question is this: must the alcocoden make a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg, or are there exceptions?
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  #154  
Unread 10-11-2013, 07:29 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlane69 View Post
Thank you dr. farr and poyi....

I'm sure you both know why I am asking....but I want to find my own answer so no one has to tell me. I appreciate the guidance.

My next question is this: must the alcocoden make a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg, or are there exceptions?
I think that will be the case as by logic, it has to have major aspect to be powerful enough to Give Life and Sustain Life. Minor aspect of course has it own value particularly in the modern practice. However, in the traditional practice, this Model is built upon such principles so therefore following the original rules. Then once you mastered the model with the original principles, you may explore further.

It is the same with weather prediction and gaming prediction from what I heard. There are rules for each predictive model and rules are developed for capturing the trend of energy flow.
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Last edited by poyi; 10-11-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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  #155  
Unread 10-11-2013, 08:07 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I am studying the paper written by Bernadette Brady on this matter. I have my moon at 6 degrees 34 minutes Capricorn second house, in novile aspect to Venus at 17 degrees 14 minutes Aquarius. I am not sure if the minor aspect of moon/Venus applies in my case as Venus is ruler of term degree at 6 degrees Capricorn; her paper does not state exactly what aspect they must make, but instead just says an aspect. If this is not the case, then I would look to the Ascendant, as my Mars at 5 degrees 22 minutes Leo trines my Ascendant at 27 degrees 25 minutes Scorpio. The Ascendant would make more sense, and is in a grand trine to my Sun at 27 degrees 55 minutes Pisces, fourth house, in conjunction to Jupiter at 26 degrees 10 minutes Pisces also in fourth.
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  #156  
Unread 10-11-2013, 08:37 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Ah, silly me....just discovered my software does traditional.....duh....
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  #157  
Unread 10-11-2013, 06:28 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlane69 View Post
I am studying the paper written by Bernadette Brady on this matter. I have my moon at 6 degrees 34 minutes Capricorn second house, in novile aspect to Venus at 17 degrees 14 minutes Aquarius. I am not sure if the minor aspect of moon/Venus applies in my case as Venus is ruler of term degree at 6 degrees Capricorn; her paper does not state exactly what aspect they must make, but instead just says an aspect. If this is not the case, then I would look to the Ascendant, as my Mars at 5 degrees 22 minutes Leo trines my Ascendant at 27 degrees 25 minutes Scorpio. The Ascendant would make more sense, and is in a grand trine to my Sun at 27 degrees 55 minutes Pisces, fourth house, in conjunction to Jupiter at 26 degrees 10 minutes Pisces also in fourth.
Novile is not a Ptolemaic aspect

Ptolemy distinguished four major aspects between zodiac signs:
sextile, square, trine, and opposition

William Lilly included the conjunction
as well as partile or platick as discussed at
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html
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  #158  
Unread 10-13-2013, 05:48 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Novile is not a Ptolemaic aspect

Ptolemy distinguished four major aspects between zodiac signs:
sextile, square, trine, and opposition

William Lilly included the conjunction
as well as partile or platick as discussed at
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html
Thank you Jupiter for your guidance....
I did not understand this is quite different from modern practice. Please forgive my novice ability in these matters....but I am learning quickly.
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  #159  
Unread 10-14-2013, 03:12 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
From the other thread Culpeper mentioned this thread had brought me here.

Now finding Hyleg the most dignified planet in my natal chart is a bit tricky as normally I would choose between Mercury or Jupiter. But perhaps Mars is the One. Mars actually rules my Sun, Mercury, Saturn, 3rd and 8th house while mutual reception with Mercury and exalted by Moon.

What do you guys think?

Attachment 42893

So far through the good god of Googleldo, I found these readings.

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf
http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical...the_Hyleg.html
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html

As per palmistry and my Chinese astrology and 8 characters reading. I expect to live a relatively long life, but with ongoing health illness due to complete lack of fire element in the 8 characters which signifies the heart and part of circulation same as Western Leo. Which in natal Leo is the 12th house cusp. Saturn does conjunct Sun in lose aspect but under combustion, and ruler of the 5th and 6th. I have always have heart issues, if I ran a little longer distance my vision will turn golden yellow due to hypoxia and usually go to 120 bates a minute. The worst situation was when I was in severe period pain with heavy bleeding it cause my blood pressure dropped to 80/40s range with heart rate of 140s I almost collapsed at work. Had many chest pain and palpation every couple of weeks due to WPW syndrome.

I think learning about Hyleg and Alcocoden will enlighten my understanding of medical astrology.
Poyi,

I use Janus 4 software for my calculations. It also does traditional charts I have discovered in the last couple of days. According to Janus, your Hyleg is Mars according to Ptolemy, and Moon according to Bonatti. I know I am new at this, but would put my money on Mars as your Hyleg. Others may disagree, that's fine. If Mars, then Mercury is surely your Alcocoden. You have Venus in sextile to Mercury. Mercury in Scorpio gives middle years. Plus lesser years and middle months for Venus.
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  #160  
Unread 10-14-2013, 03:57 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thank you very much for checking that for me I also thought Mars as Hyleg in my chart. From personal observation when transit Uranus (modern outer) at antisicon of natal 25 degrees Mars in Virgo I had this minor in damage but major in life changing accident. I am fascinated and think that there is room for further research crossing both traditional and modern methods like what dr Farr always does. I have now trying to always read a chart in both traditional and modern way to look for common points.

There are a lot of death prediction methods developed and used by many different cultural background of ancient astrologers. With the right attitude, any tool can be useful for positive purposes. This is highly subjective as you can see the recent arguments, but simply as part of our life to learn about right and wrong. We all need to find our own answers.

Thank you once again of using your software to help me to find my Hyleg.
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  #161  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:04 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Although I no longer use the accepted (Western) traditional methods to estimate hyleg, I will state that in the past I found the Bonatti method superior to Ptolemy in estimating the "giver of life", ie, in giving (or coming close to giving) the planet as hyleg which in "real life" did seem to really have those properties relative to the native...
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  #162  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:09 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

So dr Farr you reckon Moon is the Hyleg in my chart instead? but then the complex relationship of moon exalted Mars is a tricky one to be clear cut rather Ptolemy or Bonatti got it more right. I guess my natal planets made it even more confusing which method to be more effective.
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  #163  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:14 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.
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  #164  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:18 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Come on! dr Farr just spit it out will you?! What is the method then lol?
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  #165  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:25 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Pars hyleg + Foundation of the horoscope + ashtakavarga analysis (and that's all I will say, here)...
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  #166  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:25 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.
Would you consider starting a new thread for this topic using modern methods?
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  #167  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Pars hyleg + Foundation of the horoscope + ashtakavarga analysis (and that's all I will say, here)...
I see...thank you
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  #168  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:50 AM
fastlane69 fastlane69 is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Thank you very much for checking that for me I also thought Mars as Hyleg in my chart. From personal observation when transit Uranus (modern outer) at antisicon of natal 25 degrees Mars in Virgo I had this minor in damage but major in life changing accident. I am fascinated and think that there is room for further research crossing both traditional and modern methods like what dr Farr always does. I have now trying to always read a chart in both traditional and modern way to look for common points.

There are a lot of death prediction methods developed and used by many different cultural background of ancient astrologers. With the right attitude, any tool can be useful for positive purposes. This is highly subjective as you can see the recent arguments, but simply as part of our life to learn about right and wrong. We all need to find our own answers.

Thank you once again of using your software to help me to find my Hyleg.
Very welcome....anytime.
The reason I give Mars as Hyleg in the traditional chart...
Mars at term ruler and scores a 2 in my software. Also angular in first house.
Moon at triplicity ruler but in detriment in fifth, a succedent house. Moon scores -2 in my software.
If Moon is Hyleg then trine from Venus at home in Libra. Venus scores a 5, but no dignity in Hyleg's place. That leaves Mars or Mercury. Mars exalted and term ruler, so...Mercury no dignity in Hyleg's place. You make the call. Moon below, succedent, feminine...this is where the art comes in, and I don't have the talent....yet.
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  #169  
Unread 10-14-2013, 05:08 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

But if Mars Alcocoden, the greater years for Mars, and lesser years and months for Venus.
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  #170  
Unread 10-14-2013, 05:25 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.
Or we could just use the Magic 8-ball...
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  #171  
Unread 10-14-2013, 05:58 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Oh Yeah!!
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  #172  
Unread 10-14-2013, 06:02 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by fastlane69 View Post
Would you consider starting a new thread for this topic using modern methods?
I might do that in the near future.
These methods though, are not modern at all-the Pars hyleg and Foundation-of-the-horoscope (they are both "Lots") go back at least to around the 8th century (and both are briefly mentioned by Bonatti although not used by him in his hyleg calculations), and ashtakavarga-a Vedic evaulative method-goes back at least to the begiining of the CE (if in fact not as far back as the Vedas themselves)!
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  #173  
Unread 12-02-2013, 01:18 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I'm very confused on the hyleg for this chart. (15. 04.1965, 3:30am, GMT+1; 44N49, 20E28)

Birth is nocturnal, so it should be the Moon, which in fact is in a hylegical house (7th) and in female quadrant (although not in female sign), however the Moon is peregrine, so does it qualify? I read that the Hyleg should not be in any way debilitated, so a peregrine body just seems inappropriate.

If this doesn't matter and I take the Moon regardless, the only options for alcochoden are Venus and Mercury, yes? But which do I choose? Venus in opposition to Moon is very large orb; Mercury on the other hand in a partil opposition. So I would take Mercury because the aspect is more precise, is that correct?

The sun could be Hyleg as is also angular (1st house), exalted (so in a healthy position), masculine sign. But it combusts the planet which would be alcochoden (venus) in a partil aspect. Besides that, this is the only aspect the sun makes, unless we count a very wide orb opposition to the Moon - which in this case can't be alcochoden anyway, as it has no dignity in the degree of the Sun.

So, do I take the Moon or Sun as Hyleg? Or neither? Which planet do I choose as alcochoden?

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  #174  
Unread 12-02-2013, 01:37 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Oh and forgot to mention that the Sun, as can be seen, is ruler of the 6th house, and I read that the ruler of a malefic house (6,8,12, sometimes 4th is also taken as bad) cannot be Hyleg.
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  #175  
Unread 12-02-2013, 06:08 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I would use the ASC in this chart, neither the Sun or the Moon are in any state to qualify. I don't pay much attention to the whole Alcocoden thing, but the Hyleg is important as its directions will not only show the death and illness of the native, but also their general state and life experience.
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