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  #101  
Unread 06-12-2013, 03:24 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Bob Zemco's account remains active so that's entirely possible serafin5 - meanwhile we can quote him - I found another comment Bob posted specifically re: Jupiter in a Pitted Degree Interestingly, Bob tells us that 'Pitted Degrees' are also referred to as 'Welled Degrees' and in most of the Latin texts as Deep Degrees
Thanks JupiterAsc for the info on degrees! I'm not sure if you are familiar with "skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html#"? Deborah Houlding has a "Compiled and Annotated Table of Degree Influences" which is soooo awesome! This is a comprehensive list of every sign and every degree of every sign saying if it's dark or smokey or welled, etc.; you should check it out.

Blessings to you!
Serafin5

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  #102  
Unread 06-12-2013, 03:54 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
Thanks JupiterAsc for the info on degrees! I'm not sure if you are familiar with "skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html#"? Deborah Houlding has a "Compiled and Annotated Table of Degree Influences" which is soooo awesome! This is a comprehensive list of every sign and every degree of every sign saying if it's dark or smokey or welled, etc.; you should check it out.

Blessings to you!
Serafin5
Thank you!
The link you provided at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html is very useful serafin5

As well I purchased a software program that I obtained directly from the programmer, Rumen Kolev, who is also a well known expert on Ancient Babylonian astrology at
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1

Just by hovering the mouse over any natal chart degree,
the program displays immediately in real time onscreen whether the degree being hovered over is 'shadowy', 'light', or 'empty'
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  #103  
Unread 06-13-2013, 05:18 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Problem with the skyscript list is that the numbers (degrees) given have NOT been corrected for our modern sign numeration! Now, skyscript DOES append a note that the degrees given in their tables must be taken back 1 degree to match modern sign numeration; however I wonder why skyscript has not simply adjusted their tables to the modern numeration?? (as I have done, here on AW in my table of elevated and pitted degrees)
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  #104  
Unread 06-13-2013, 05:21 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Problem with the skyscript list is that the numbers (degrees) given have NOT been corrected for our modern sign numeration! Now, skyscript DOES append a note that the degrees given in their tables must be taken back 1 degree to match modern sign numeration; however I wonder why skyscript has not simply adjusted their tables to the modern numeration?? (as I have done, here on AW in my table of elevated and pitted degrees)
Oh no, that really ***** Dr Farr! So basically it is rendered obsolete only because who wants to be guessing right?

JupiterAsc: That's an awesome program you have there especially since that list at skyscript may not be accurate. Does anybody know of another possible list either online or perhaps in a book? ASAP, when I have the cash too, I need to buy the William Lilly "Christian Astrology", however I was gifted with a new "Kindle Fire HD" and may hopefully find that and other books really affordable to purchase and download. Wish me luck.

Thanks guys!
Serafin 5

PS JupiterAsc: At some point I may be getting a new laptop so until then maybe you can advise me about that software you mentioned ok?
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  #105  
Unread 06-13-2013, 07:31 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
Oh no, that really ***** Dr Farr! So basically it is rendered obsolete only because who wants to be guessing right?

JupiterAsc: That's an awesome program you have there especially since that list at skyscript may not be accurate. Does anybody know of another possible list either online or perhaps in a book? ASAP, when I have the cash too, I need to buy the William Lilly "Christian Astrology", however I was gifted with a new "Kindle Fire HD" and may hopefully find that and other books really affordable to purchase and download. Wish me luck.

Thanks guys!
Serafin 5

PS JupiterAsc: At some point I may be getting a new laptop so until then maybe you can advise me about that software you mentioned ok?

serafin5 - good news - Skyscript has a FREE TEXTS ON THE WEB links page
- scroll down the alphabetical list for totally FREE William Lilly Christian Astrology online text.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html
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  #106  
Unread 06-13-2013, 11:35 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
serafin5 - good news - Skyscript has a FREE TEXTS ON THE WEB links page
- scroll down the alphabetical list for totally FREE William Lilly Christian Astrology online text.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html
Oh that is wonderful! I will check that out I just hope it will be a compatible download for my Kindle

We'll see!
S5
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  #107  
Unread 06-14-2013, 04:14 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

The skyscript degree list CAN BE used, IF you follow the note to the list and take every degree listed back by 1 (to match our current charts) I just question why they haven't simply corrected their list to our current sign numeration (like I did here, with the elevated and pitted degree list)
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  #108  
Unread 06-14-2013, 03:25 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The skyscript degree list CAN BE used, IF you follow the note to the list and take every degree listed back by 1 (to match our current charts) I just question why they haven't simply corrected their list to our current sign numeration (like I did here, with the elevated and pitted degree list)
I agree; I wonder if one can't possibly PM one of the Mod's there or Deborah Houlding herself and ask if this can be done? It would sure be nice too cause then I and others could print it out to keep. We'll see.

Thanks a ton!
Serafin5
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  #109  
Unread 08-08-2013, 09:42 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
Thanks JupiterAsc for the info on degrees!

I'm not sure if you are familiar with http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html#note ? Deborah Houlding has a "Compiled and Annotated Table of Degree Influences" which is soooo awesome! This is a comprehensive list of every sign and every degree of every sign saying if it's dark or smokey or welled, etc.; you should check it out.

Blessings to you!
Serafin5
HOWEVER the notation requires some explanation
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The skyscript degree list CAN BE used, IF you follow the note to the list and take every degree listed back by 1 (to match our current charts) I just question why they haven't simply corrected their list to our current sign numeration (like I did here, with the elevated and pitted degree list)
A likely explanation is - because the heading reads TRADITIONAL Degree Influences - emphasizing their Traditional origin
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Please be aware that I am NOT a traditionalist! I AM AN ECLECTIC, and I value elements from all points of view, Modernist, Traditionalist, Hellenistic, even some from Vedic! The 2 most influential authors upon me were Paracelsus (from the 15th century) and the great pioneer of Modernist thought, Charles Carter.

I like to post information that is not generally or easily available, hence this thread regarding the old concept of celestial topography. I use these things, but I think I am always careful, in my posts, to point out that I am not advocating or otherwise proselytizing any particular school or "model" of astrological practice.....
BobZemco also highlighted the notation
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
That would depend on the system of reckoning:

0 to 29 or 1 to 30.

0 to 29 is a modern thing used mostly to make it easier for software programs to calculate charts
.


Critical Degrees are a corrupted version of the Vedic Moon Mansions. It could be possible these are "Planetary Mansions."

I've also heard the Degrees of Fortune and Pitted Degrees are Planetary Nodes, but I don't really see how unless they are the points where the Planetary Nodes would conjunct the Antiscion/Contra-Antiscion when in a given Sign.
dr. farr - thanks for clarifying with more detail
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Right, it is through the entire degree.

One thing, though, is the translation of much of the older degree numbers to the numeration we use in our charts today. We use 0 through 29:59; the old numeration was 1 through 30
.


That means, when translating a degree in an oldtime list, to our current sign numeration, we must subtract from the oldtime list;


ie, exatation of Moon at 3 Taurus in the oldtime lists translates to the 2nd degree of Taurus being the exaltatio degree of the Moon in our current sign numeration.


We can easily get misled about a degree and its meanings/connections if we do not take this into account, when referencing the oldtime degree lists.
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  #110  
Unread 08-08-2013, 09:26 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The skyscript degree list CAN BE used, IF you follow the note to the list and take every degree listed back by 1 (to match our current charts) I just question why they haven't simply corrected their list to our current sign numeration (like I did here, with the elevated and pitted degree list)
So your list is directly from Ibn Ezra and the skyscript list is from William Lilly? I see they are slightly different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr
......ARIES
+ Elevation: 18

- Pits: 5 - 10 - 16 - 23
Shifting Lilly's table, the aries pits would be 5-10-15-22-28

That gets me to the next question, are they referenced to the solar system or beyond? If the later, then they would slowly move over time in the tropical system from precession (like stars). That could lead to differences in observations over centuries (assuming they are just a list of observed rule exceptions compiled over time).

Then again, I've always wondered if the effects of stars actually have anything to do with the stars themselves. The effects might be sourced from within our solar system, but the stars simply provided a convenient point of reference at the time. I suppose there is also the strong attraction to the romantic lore associated with the constellations.
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  #111  
Unread 08-08-2013, 09:43 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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That gets me to the next question, are they referenced to the solar system or beyond? If the later, then they would slowly move over time in the tropical system from precession (like stars). That could lead to differences in observations over centuries (assuming they are just a list of observed rule exceptions compiled over time).

Then again, I've always wondered if the effects of stars actually have anything to do with the stars themselves. The effects might be sourced from within our solar system, but the stars simply provided a convenient point of reference at the time. I suppose there is also the strong attraction to the romantic lore associated with the constellations.
If the Tropical system took precession into account - then it would be the Sidereal system

Tropical system uses the Sun's Equinox and Solstice points, ignoring the constellations

INSTEAD of the constellations/distant stars an imaginary mathematical point named zero degrees Aries is Tropical marker for the Spring Equinox EVERY year... tropical therefore does not notice precession

Sidereal system is pegged to the stars/constellations and takes precession into account
so at the Spring Equinox each year the Sun is acknowledged to rise against a different degree/constellation that is demarcated by the fixed stars/constellation

video link explains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related

discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=66316
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  #112  
Unread 08-08-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
I sure miss seeing Bob Zemco's posts! There was a time that I didnt understand them at all but he inspired me to learn and leave my comfort zone. I've wanted to thank him ever since too.
No need to thank. I always thought your posts were passionate with a sense of humor, making them enjoyable to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Interestingly, Bob tells us that 'Pitted Degrees' are also referred to as 'Welled Degrees' and in most of the Latin texts as Deep Degrees
The Arabs and Persians translated it as "Welled."

The Latins translating Arabic/Persian texts used the word "Deep."

That led to the post-Latin astrologers, especially the English like Lilly, translating "Deep" into "Pitted."

Connotatively, there isn't much difference in meaning, so I think that everyone from the Arabs on pretty much captured the basic symbolism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
I agree; I wonder if one can't possibly PM one of the Mod's there or Deborah Houlding herself and ask if this can be done?
What, you want them to get off of their pedestals to let the Little People learn something?

Just don't see that happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
A likely explanation is - because the heading reads TRADITIONAL Degree Influences - emphasizing their Traditional origin.
It's Egyptian.

What is it based on? I have no idea.

There is a point --19 Scorpio -- that is "cursed." The North Scales (Zuben Aschemali) sit at that point now due to precession.

Another "cursed" point is 22 Leo. The connotation is that one enslaves one's self, or the idea of being your own worst enemy. Unlike the cursed point at 19 Scorpio, this point is precessing through the Equinox, so you'd treat it like a star (even though there is apparently nothing there...or nothing that Hubble can see....or nothing that Hubble saw that they want us to see).

Aside from that, there are two different sets of Degrees, apparently one being the original Egyptian and the other from the Arabs. I think Abu-ali and al-Qabisi might have modified them (and if so, their reasoning for doing so is lost to "The Ages" apparently).

A few tips on delineation....

1] do your delineation first, and then modify your judgment. Your procedure for chart delineation is correct....so long as it's thorough...I delineate from the Planets, others go Topic-to-Topic, and still others go House-to-House.

2] pay strict attention to the symbolism, based on the Planet/Point you're examining.

3] the Bright, Dark, Smoky and Empty Degrees are minor refinements, in the context of the Planet and what it signifies in the chart.

Without any further comment.....

The reason I never got back on the Martin-Zimmerman Chart is because the second I called it up, Virgo-rising, Moon chasing Jupiter, and Empty Pitted Mercury in Pisces.

"Empty" in Horary, Ingress, Mundane Event Charts means exactly that....Empty...as in Stupid....as in ****-for-brains....as in Zero Upstairs.

[Be wary of Moon or Mercury in "Empty" Degrees in Natal Charts"]

Anyway, that tells the whole story: Martin got stupid, chased after Zimmerman, and by doing so, dug his own grave.

....again, no further comment [on this thread] about that.
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  #113  
Unread 08-09-2013, 03:10 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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No need to thank.
Actually, yes there is. The knowledge you and some other dedictated members share here is actually quite amazing. If you know you are reaching people, maybe we can keep you around. I'm pretty sure you've seen this?

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42191



Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
What, you want them to get off of their pedestals to let the Little People learn something?

Just don't see that happening.
Er. Remember we were talking about how the software often gets it wrong and so it's important to know what you are doing apart from it? Ok, so the table at skyscript agrees with my software, which by the way agrees with the pits or wells that you have also pointed out in charts. As an example, a recent post in the traditional forum has Moon at 22 Leo 57, which is the 23rd degree of Leo. The skyscript table and the software agree that the 23rd degree of Leo is pitted. (This is not a case where you concurred.)

In the "will we win our lawsuit thread," we have Mars at 24 Taurus 35, and both the 24th and 25th degrees of Taurus are welled. Well that doesn't help. However, we also have Mercury (Stan and Bran?) in welled degree at 16 Gemini 46...the 17th degree of Gemini. Which is welled in the table but the 16th and 18th are not.

Am I seriously missing something here? (And no, it wouldn't be the first time if I were) This is like, you are born and up until your first birthday you are in your first year, and then your second year. Or, this is the first degree of a sign (0-1) and after that you are in the second degree?

0 in math isn't a number, as far as I remember (and yes, I suck at math) but rather a place holder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
There is a point --19 Scorpio -- that is "cursed." The North Scales (Zuben Aschemali) sit at that point now due to precession.

Another "cursed" point is 22 Leo. The connotation is that one enslaves one's self, or the idea of being your own worst enemy. Unlike the cursed point at 19 Scorpio, this point is precessing through the Equinox, so you'd treat it like a star (even though there is apparently nothing there...or nothing that Hubble can see....or nothing that Hubble saw that they want us to see).
There was quite a bit of concern about a year ago here (sorry, I tried but I can't find the thread without spending a couple of hours looking) about 15* Leo. I wonder two things...if this somehow morphed to 15*, and why 22* Leo specifically? Again, I'm short on research time, but I wonder if there were exact degrees of detriment, the same as there were exact degrees of exaltation/fall.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Aside from that, there are two different sets of Degrees, apparently one being the original Egyptian and the other from the Arabs. I think Abu-ali and al-Qabisi might have modified them (and if so, their reasoning for doing so is lost to "The Ages" apparently).
Again, this is probably misremembering and pretty dumb, but didn't the Arabs "invent" zero? Or did they co-opt it from India?

Wouldn't the reason have been in advances in mathematics?
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  #114  
Unread 08-09-2013, 05:57 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
No need to thank. I always thought your posts were passionate with a sense of humor, making them enjoyable to read.



The Arabs and Persians translated it as "Welled."

The Latins translating Arabic/Persian texts used the word "Deep."

That led to the post-Latin astrologers, especially the English like Lilly, translating "Deep" into "Pitted."

Connotatively, there isn't much difference in meaning, so I think that everyone from the Arabs on pretty much captured the basic symbolism.



What, you want them to get off of their pedestals to let the Little People learn something?

Just don't see that happening.



It's Egyptian.

What is it based on? I have no idea.

There is a point --19 Scorpio -- that is "cursed." The North Scales (Zuben Aschemali) sit at that point now due to precession.

Another "cursed" point is 22 Leo. The connotation is that one enslaves one's self, or the idea of being your own worst enemy. Unlike the cursed point at 19 Scorpio, this point is precessing through the Equinox, so you'd treat it like a star (even though there is apparently nothing there...or nothing that Hubble can see....or nothing that Hubble saw that they want us to see).

Aside from that, there are two different sets of Degrees, apparently one being the original Egyptian and the other from the Arabs. I think Abu-ali and al-Qabisi might have modified them (and if so, their reasoning for doing so is lost to "The Ages" apparently).

A few tips on delineation....

1] do your delineation first, and then modify your judgment. Your procedure for chart delineation is correct....so long as it's thorough...I delineate from the Planets, others go Topic-to-Topic, and still others go House-to-House.

2] pay strict attention to the symbolism, based on the Planet/Point you're examining.

3] the Bright, Dark, Smoky and Empty Degrees are minor refinements, in the context of the Planet and what it signifies in the chart.

Without any further comment.....

The reason I never got back on the Martin-Zimmerman Chart is because the second I called it up, Virgo-rising, Moon chasing Jupiter, and Empty Pitted Mercury in Pisces.

"Empty" in Horary, Ingress, Mundane Event Charts means exactly that....Empty...as in Stupid....as in ****-for-brains....as in Zero Upstairs.

[Be wary of Moon or Mercury in "Empty" Degrees in Natal Charts"]

Anyway, that tells the whole story: Martin got stupid, chased after Zimmerman, and by doing so, dug his own grave.

....again, no further comment [on this thread] about that.
Thanks for the compliment Bob! (I'm blushing ) I am sincerely glad you are back and I hope you stick around for awhile!

S5
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  #115  
Unread 08-09-2013, 06:12 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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....didn't the Arabs "invent" zero? Or did they co-opt it from India?

Wouldn't the reason have been in advances in mathematics?
QUOTE

A BRIEF HISTORY OF ZERO

http://www.mediatinker.com/blog/archives/008821.html


'...Once upon a time there was no zero. Of course people knew if they had nothing, but there was no mathematical notation for it. Zero was independently invented only three times.

The first recorded zero is attributed to the Babylonians in the 3rd century BC. A long period followed when no one else used a zero place holder. But then the Mayans, halfway around the world in Central America, independently invented zero in the fourth century CE....'


'...The final independent invention of zero in India was long debated by scholars, but seems to be set around the middle of the fifth century. It spread to Cambodia around the end of the 7th century. From India it moved into China and then to the Islamic countries. Zero finally reached western Europe in the 12th century.

Before you continue reading the history of zero, please be sure you understand these underlying concepts : Number vs Numeral; Invent vs Discover & Place Value Notation...'



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  #116  
Unread 08-09-2013, 06:41 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I'm pretty sure you've seen this?
No, but thanks for pointing that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Er. Remember we were talking about how the software often gets it wrong and so it's important to know what you are doing apart from it?
Yes, because I got burned by software. Of course, Humans program software, so that explains a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Ok, so the table at skyscript agrees with my software, which by the way agrees with the pits or wells that you have also pointed out in charts. As an example, a recent post in the traditional forum has Moon at 22 Leo 57, which is the 23rd degree of Leo. The skyscript table and the software agree that the 23rd degree of Leo is pitted. (This is not a case where you concurred.)
I reject those charts.

Well, what the heck....



I can kill lots of birds with one stone here. In case anyone is wondering, this is the true Equal House System that Ptolemy describes in his texts.

The Ascendant at 20 Scorpio is in a Dark Degree. The Native was born with jet black hair and a raging case of jaundice, so the Native looked like he'd just stepped off the boat from Mumbai (Bombay) India.

That is what an Ascendant in a Dark Degree means -- some kind of blemish or minor [cosmetic] defect at birth, normally not life-threatening.

Who rules the Ascendant? Pluto? Nope. Mars is the sole ruler of Scorpio.

By the way...which body parts or organs does Mars rule? Uh, the Liver, for one.....you know, jaundice? Yeah, that.

When you go around the horn and delineate body parts, you do it the exact same way. A Planet in a Dark Degree in partile aspect to the Ascending Degree is going to have some kind of blemish/defect at the location signified by the Planet. While I'm on the subject, for Exalted Planets, think big. Literally. Like Jupiter Exalted in the 3rd House is probably going to be large broad shoulders or really big hands (use the Bound Ruler for refinement).

Does everyone understand how that works?

The sole ruler of Scorpio is Mars --- who is Below Earth in a Diurnal Chart where he should be (+1); Oriental of Sun where he should be (+1); who is in Sign sextile to Sun and thus strengthened (+1); who is domiciled in Aries (+1); who Rejoices in the 6th House (+1); and who is in a Masculine Quarter and Sign, and so in Hayz (+1) and so very competent to do the tasks given to Mars in this Chart.

What exactly has Mars been tasked to do?

Mars in the 6th labors to acquire professional skills....but not just any professional skills, rather very unique professional skills that are of Mars Quality blended with the subtlety of Scorpio.

Because Mars is in the 6th? Nope. Because Mars rules the 6th? Nope. Because Mars rules the Ascendant? Nope.

Because Mars rules both the Ascendant and the 6th House, and Mars is located in the 6th.

When Taurus rises and Venus is in Libra in the 6th, it is very similar to this, so that's why we're looking at this.

Except there's just one problem....28 Aries is a Pitted Degree.

How do we modify our judgment? The unique knowledge Mars seeks takes its toll placing Mars in danger health-wise. Mars will also go to great lengths to acquire knowledge. In fact, Mars has spent a lot of money to acquire some unique skills, placing the Native at a financial disadvantage on occasion.

The Ascendant Ruler in the 6th is generally bad news, except here, the Ascendant Ruler also rules the 6th. When the ruler of the 6th House is in the 6th House, that is good (usually).

But, again, Mars is Pitted. So while Mars is very strong and highly competent to protect the Native, being Pitted results in the Native experiencing many injuries, albeit largely superficial injuries or injuries which are non-life-threatening.

What else about the Ascendant Ruler?

The Ascendant Ruler tells you the Native's function on this Earth. And that is what? Well, where is the Ascendant Ruler? In the 6th House.

The Native's function on this Earth is to serve others.

In fact, the Native has never done anything except acquire special unique skills of a Mars/Scorpio Nature so that the Native can place himself in the service of others.

When the Native wasn't serving his community, he was serving customers at a fast-food restaurant, and when not doing that, serving the student body as president of that student body, and when not doing that, serving his country, and then serving his community again as a police officer and detective, and then even though in private/self-employment, still serving his community by rooting out fraud liable to the tax-payers, and when not doing that, escorting film crews in Serbia, and so on and so on.

Note the prevalence of Mars Qualities in the Native's service, especially those related to the military and law enforcement, and then the subtlety of Scorpio with terrorism/counter-terrorism and undercover operations (and the occult).

But Mars is Pitted....so the Native will dig his own hole/cause his own problems, because he is duty-bound to serve others, bringing harm and misfortune to the Native. For example, the Native observes several vehicles, one of which is known to be a support vehicle for a certain truck-mounted radar unit used by large caliber (not missile) anti-aircraft weapons (generally 20 mm to 76 mm). Native orders personnel from the operations and intelligence section to return immediately to the command post and report, while Native goes to verify what he saw, because the Native had just tasked an air cavalry platoon to conduct aerial reconnaissance of the area, and the presence of anti-aircraft weapons would make the Native look stupid and incompetent. Anyway, somehow the Native ends up in a sudden meeting engagement with a small enemy patrol that quickly devolved into hand-to-hand combat. It's noteworthy that Mars rules the brain, in particular, the medulla oblongata and other parts of the primitive brain, such as the amygdala. When a person is subjected to trauma, the amygdala takes over the sympathetic nervous system, and starts shooting out hormones to shut down the hippocampus --- which thinks...reasons...interprets sensory input...and that's way too slow for survival. As the trauma intensifies, the hippocampus is completely shut down so that the amygdala can have the body operating strictly on primitive reflex, and that is what causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

And, yes, some people say Planets in Cadent Houses are weak and do not produce much.

I think not.

This Chart also has Saturn in a Pitted Degree.

Saturn is Oriental, but Below Earth and so not in-Sect (yet in a Masculine Sign and Quadrant so not totally Out-of-Sect). Sun is in an applying trine to Saturn; Saturn is in Aquarius -- which helps temper Saturn's malefic nature --- but Saturn is Retrograde, and joined to the Tail. Saturn rules Siblings and Parents....Native is estranged, but voluntarily so, because Native wishes to neither impose nor be a burden on his family, yet that causes Native to suffer....again, Native dug his own hole there.

23 Leo is not a Pitted Degree.

That would be impossible.

Native's Lot of Fortune is at 23 Leo in the 10th Sign, ruled by Sun. This will also illustrate why Whole Sign, idiot Equal Sign and Ptrue (Ptolemy) Equal Sign House Systems should not be used.

Alcabitius and Porphyry place Sun [& Mercury] in the 7th House, albeit in the 8th Sign [Gemini], so both Mercury & Sun are active in 7th and 8th House matters.

Three times the Native has appeared on national television in the US, once in Germany, once in Serbia, and once in Slovakia --- although that shouldn't really count, since Native attended an historic meeting between the presidents of the Czech and Slovak Republics (the first since Czechoslovakia split into two States), but did not speak on camera (uh, naturally, Native is standing alongside talking with police officers -- they interviewed the police chief).

The Native was interviewed several times on local television in connection with investigations that uncovered various frauds related to State-funded insurance programs, as well as private insurance programs. Additionally, the Native was interviewed on local television for his role in uncovering illegal election campaign activities, including the scheme that attorneys used to fund elections for county judge positions.

On top of that, Native is an highly decorated veteran and has also received civilian awards and recognition....and that's related to Sun in the 7th (and 8th) and ruling the Lot of Fortune in Leo in the 10th Sign.

Note the MC is in the 11th Sign Virgo --- signifying the military (sorry folks--- the 11th House is the Military, not the 6th House), those things that support government, support officials in varying capacity in both public and private service, and those things involving communities and groups.

While I'm at it, Sagittarius rules the 2nd House, and its ruler is in the 5th Sign House -- showing the Native derives his wealth through his own means....self-employment.

And what does Native do for self-employment?

Jupiter.

Jupiter is Wisdom....yes, consulting.

Native has an highly specialized consulting practice with very select clientele.

Note that Moon --- ruling the Cancer 9th House is applying to Jupiter in Pisces, reinforcing the consulting/wisdom. Also note the applying trine Venus in Cancer makes to Jupiter.

This is an excellent example of what we mean by Benefic and Malefic.

Mars is Malefic, yet very well placed in the Chart (albeit Pitted).

The Native is successful, but through hard effort, with trials, tribulations, many difficulties, lots of suffering....it's never easy.....that,...folks... is the essence of Maleficence

See the contrast with Moon, Venus and Jupiter?

Those things involving the 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th Houses come easy to the Native, without lots of strings attached, and without suffering or hard work, without any dry white toast or anything else negative.

That....is the essence of Beneficence.

The Malefics (Saturn & Mars) in their best condition will do good, but with plenty of hardships and difficulties. The Benefics in their best condition will do good without all the grief.

Is the Native wealthy or rich? No. Why not?

Gemini Sun square Jupiter ruling the 2nd, that's [one reason] why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
In the "will we win our lawsuit thread," we have Mars at 24 Taurus 35, and both the 24th and 25th degrees of Taurus are welled. Well that doesn't help. However, we also have Mercury (Stan and Bran?) in welled degree at 16 Gemini 46...the 17th degree of Gemini. Which is welled in the table but the 16th and 18th are not.
Doesn't matter.

Mercury is besieged by Benefics, not to mention Mercury is traveling from a Benefic to a Benefic.

If Mercury is not Pitted, then Mercury is very fortunate here....if Mercury is Pitted, then Besiegement negates the effects.

The same holds true for Planets in the Fortune Degrees. If the Planet is besieged by Malefics, that will negate the effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Am I seriously missing something here? (And no, it wouldn't be the first time if I were) This is like, you are born and up until your first birthday you are in your first year, and then your second year. Or, this is the first degree of a sign (0-1) and after that you are in the second degree?
No, it just the difference between cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
0 in math isn't a number, as far as I remember (and yes, I suck at math) but rather a place holder.
Well, that's kind of controversial.

Just when you thought it was safe to go out into the streets since the Grecophiles are dying and retiring from universities, we get thrown for a loop.

Now we have the idiot Babyloniphiles replacing the Grecophiles.

"Really dumb" just got replaced with "dumb." I'm hoping before I die we can at least replace "dumb" with "stupid." On the bright side, at least we're moving the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
There was quite a bit of concern about a year ago here (sorry, I tried but I can't find the thread without spending a couple of hours looking) about 15* Leo. I wonder two things...if this somehow morphed to 15*, and why 22* Leo specifically? Again, I'm short on research time, but I wonder if there were exact degrees of detriment, the same as there were exact degrees of exaltation/fall.
One of the Pole Stars is at 15 Leo: Dubhe. It's a Fortunate Star. I don't know anything else about it, and I don't use it.

I'm not exactly impressed with it (hence the use of quotes).

Patton's Sun was at 19. And then George C. Scott who played Patton in film and won an Oscar had Mercury at 19 Scorpio.

And then Monty -- a British general -- had Jupiter at 19 Scorpio....as did Charlton Heston, but Heston never played Monty in a film (although he did play an astronaut).

Kevin Costner and RFK both have Saturn at 19 Scorpio, and Costner never played the part of RFK in film (but he did play the role of postman and a guy that dances with wolves).

I don't pretend to be intimately familiar with charts, but it doesn't appear that they're exactly "cursed."

If I thought it was important, I'd spend time tracking down the origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Again, this is probably misremembering and pretty dumb, but didn't the Arabs "invent" zero? Or did they co-opt it from India?

Wouldn't the reason have been in advances in mathematics?
That's what I'm told, but I'm not sure how it would be related to advances in mathematics.

I can attest to the fact that my life has definitely been enriched and made better by the number "0" and by the letter "Q."

Just think...if the Arabs had never invented '0' the US would not be $16.9 Trillion in debt right now with no hope of ever paying it off without causing severe financial hardship for nearly all Americans.
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Unread 08-09-2013, 07:37 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
HOWEVER the notation requires some explanation

A likely explanation is - because the heading reads TRADITIONAL Degree Influences - emphasizing their Traditional origin

BobZemco also highlighted the notation

dr. farr - thanks for clarifying with more detail
I do have a question for you Bob in regards to the comments about the "critical degrees" being corrupted versions of Moon/planetary mansions, etc etc? I am especially interested in learning your answer to this as I have both my Sun at 0degs (Pis) and Mars at 29degs (Aqua). All this time I thought these degrees are something to really watch for.

Also, Bob, I'm not able to show your exact quote, and sorry that this question is a bit off the subject ok? But are aspects that are not in the proper sign/element are not considered to be in aspect right? In other words do so-called 'hidden aspects' exist? Example: A trine between 26degs Scorpio and 3degs Aries - Are these planets still trined? Some dude here at AW a while back called me every kind of stupid as he was trying to say he had a Grand Trine in a similar situation as the example.

I'm sorry that I'm not more articulate, I'm a bit nervous as I have quite a lot of questions for you. Thank you so much!

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Unread 08-09-2013, 08:35 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
I do have a question for you Bob in regards to the comments about the "critical degrees" being corrupted versions of Moon/planetary mansions, etc etc? I am especially interested in learning your answer to this as I have both my Sun at 0degs (Pis) and Mars at 29degs (Aqua). All this time I thought these degrees are something to really watch for.
Also Pitted.

The 29 Point has four Pitted Degrees and 5 Dark/Empty Degrees out of 12 Signs. In other words, in 9 out of 12 Signs, a Planet at 29 is going to be slightly debilitated by being Dark, Empty or Pitted. And then some of those 9 are Dark & Pitted, or Empty & Pitted.

29 Aquarius is a Bright Feminine Degree, while 0 Pisces is a Dark Masculine Degree. No real problems there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
But are aspects that are not in the proper sign/element are not considered to be in aspect right? In other words do so-called 'hidden aspects' exist? Example: A trine between 26degs Scorpio and 3degs Aries - Are these planets still trined? Some dude here at AW a while back called me every kind of stupid as he was trying to say he had a Grand Trine in a similar situation as the example.
Really?

A Grand Water/Fire Trine? Kind of an oxymoron. That's like Duplicity instead of Quadraplicity.

Ideally, you want a Planet in an Element applying to a slower second Planet in the same Element applying to an even slower 3rd Planet in the same Element. That is a Grand Trine.

And all Planets are Direct.

The original concept as espoused by Moderns was that the "energy" flows in one direction in the shape of a triangle.

Can't flow in one direction if one of the Planets is Retrograde...or two of them are Retrograde (lots of good laughs on this forum)....that defeats the entire purpose of having a Grand Trine to begin with, but some people are special-snow-flake-star-child-Indigo-people.

I suppose you could have a Grand Trine if all 3 Planets were Retrograde and applying, but that is something you really wouldn't want in your chart.
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  #119  
Unread 08-25-2013, 06:58 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

So I have Saturn in Scorpio 8 degrees 30, Jupiter in Sagittarius 14 degrees 27. Not sure if Moon nodes degrees counted, Gemini North Node at 16 degree 13

So ruler of my 5th house Saturn, ruler of my 4th and 7th house Jupiter and NN in the 10th by dr farr's guide are all in pitted degrees.

I think my love life, family life, work life should all be doomed now and very unlike to have any luck with children too.

I should become a nun and just forget about all the worldly relationships

Anyhow, taking life as it is.
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Unread 08-25-2013, 07:28 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

It is a bit hard for me to accept I have to disregard all the essential dignities of Jupiter being in his own sign, in 4th house, at IC, being contra parallel North node.

So after analyzing all above just because of a Pitted degree, everything is ruined now. I supposed from a traditional point of view. My grandparents' wealth were taken away by the government during war, parents were divorced I had a horrible childhood. I was divorced my ex was not a good man, in the old time all these are very very doomed. I used to think it was the South node conjunction did that.

For the north node in the 10th house, in the old time if I was cleaning up people's butt and dealing with infection, wounds, urine and blood high impact physical and mental labor, that is a pretty bad job as well. Happens that in modern time I earn well as a nurse and live well independently.

For the Saturn, ruler of my 5th house, I will be 30 soon and still have no children, in the old time that is very misfortune as a woman couldn't produce a child by that age her husband and in laws would give her hard time. These days, not really matter.

And also Jupiter rules higher education and aboard, foreigner, and moral standard. I have great luck oversea, finished double bachelor degrees in second language, living aboard, making friends with foreigner, dating a foreigner, open mined with all different values and learning, and I haven't commit to any crime or got low moral standard, I also had excellent relationships with old people and my own grandfather, teachers and authoritative people. For Saturn ruling my 5th house, I have very clean record of my romantic life, never slept around. Only had 2 partners at my age, the first one I was with him for 8 years. The current one is going strong even on long distance.

I do wonder how these Elevated and Pitted degrees apply to modern society.

Interesting enough to test on some actual chart.
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Last edited by poyi; 08-25-2013 at 07:36 PM.
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Unread 08-25-2013, 11:15 PM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Really?

A Grand Water/Fire Trine? Kind of an oxymoron. That's like Duplicity instead of Quadraplicity.

Ideally, you want a Planet in an Element applying to a slower second Planet in the same Element applying to an even slower 3rd Planet in the same Element. That is a Grand Trine.

And all Planets are Direct.

The original concept as espoused by Moderns was that the "energy" flows in one direction in the shape of a triangle.

Can't flow in one direction if one of the Planets is Retrograde...or two of them are Retrograde (lots of good laughs on this forum)....that defeats the entire purpose of having a Grand Trine to begin with, but some people are special-snow-flake-star-child-Indigo-people.

I suppose you could have a Grand Trine if all 3 Planets were Retrograde and applying, but that is something you really wouldn't want in your chart.
The Grand Water/Fire Trine Oxymoron Duplicity - excellent novel title
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:29 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Elevated and pitted degrees MUST be regarded as modifying FACTORS, not as all powerful final arbiters: a pitted degree tends to modify a planet in it toward balance, an elevated degree amplifies the + and mitigates the - influences/situation of that planet. Pitted degrees also tend to BLOCK: they can delay the manifestation of a planetary influence or of a Lot which falls in the pitted degree-eg Marilyn Monroe's Lot of Suicide was very prominent in her natal chart: but did she have many attempted suicide episodes throughout her life? NO-only 1 episode (her actual suicide)-why? Because the natal Lot of Suicide was IN A PITTED DEGREE-it was BLOCKED-and it took time (36 years in her case) to manifest.

These degree-qualities need to be understood well before we can successfully use them: unfortunately most of the available books today, including Traditionalist texts, do not go into the degrees and their modifying qualities, or even mention them in many cases!
I consider the elevations and pitted degrees quite important as MODIFYING factors in contemporary charts, and certainly no one can accuse ME of being reactionary or anything even approaching a "purist" Traditionalist-that's for sure!!
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:42 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

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Elevated and pitted degrees MUST be regarded as modifying FACTORS, not as all powerful final arbiters: a pitted degree tends to modify a planet in it toward balance, an elevated degree amplifies the + and mitigates the - influences/situation of that planet. Pitted degrees also tend to BLOCK: they can delay the manifestation of a planetary influence or of a Lot which falls in the pitted degree-eg Marilyn Monroe's Lot of Suicide was very prominent in her natal chart: but did she have many attempted suicide episodes throughout her life? NO-only 1 episode (her actual suicide)-why? Because the natal Lot of Suicide was IN A PITTED DEGREE-it was BLOCKED-and it took time (36 years in her case) to manifest.

These degree-qualities need to be understood well before we can successfully use them: unfortunately most of the available books today, including Traditionalist texts, do not go into the degrees and their modifying qualities, or even mention them in many cases!
I consider the elevations and pitted degrees quite important as MODIFYING factors in contemporary charts, and certainly no one can accuse ME of being reactionary or anything even approaching a "purist" Traditionalist-that's for sure!!

That makes a lot more sense to me now. Thank you for sharing your ideas and be so erratic as usual lol.

Cause I do see a lot negative impacts by the pitted degrees early in life for sure, especially thinking about the traditional value and common expectations in the past in general. But then I don't see the total END of the Jupiter as an example. I totally agree there might be a delay or blockage instead of it functioning badly throughout the whole lifespan. It will be interesting to see how it turns out as I growing older.

Again, in my Chinese chart, it also suggested very delay fortune in life. The matter is if I could survive the first half part of life .
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:51 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

If Pitted degrees meaning delay and blockage in the early part of life. I have got another point to make.

During the time when this method was common used. Most of the people didn't have long lifespan. So perhaps, the astrologers never really get to see if the Elevated and Pitted degrees lost it functions as it claimed later on in life.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 06:04 AM
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Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

That is certainly possible: indeed this might be a factor in the absolute and unconditional statements often found in the ancient authors about such and such indications regarding such and such planets in such and such situations: the tendency to absolutist and unconditional declarations in oldtime literature, West and East, is decidedly present-perhaps the relative short span of life, particularly so during the Middle Ages, MIGHT have been something of a factor in some such absolutist/unconditional pronouncements during those olden times...an interesting thought!
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