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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 08-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Cascada Cascada is offline
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Re: Rank of Fame

Thanks, I still am a bit confused though, I guess I'll have to look into it a bit more
Russel Crowe, for example, has Sun in 3rd not even making a minor aspect to the MC. Doesn't really fit in with what has been said but I'm sure there's a lot more to predicting fame than that.

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  #27  
Unread 08-06-2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascada View Post
Thanks, I still am a bit confused though, I guess I'll have to look into it a bit more
Russel Crowe, for example, has Sun in 3rd not even making a minor aspect to the MC. Doesn't really fit in with what has been said but I'm sure there's a lot more to predicting fame than that.
Exactly Cascada - there is much more to predicting fame - remember that we are discussing now only ONE of several methods provided by Omnisphericus and that is only the first method Omnisphericus outlined! Also we are cautioned that 'the subject is not easy to grasp'!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascada View Post
.....The subject is not easy to grasp, but I will try to clarify it in the following comments.

Note also that Omnisphericus continues by then examining another method he is illustrating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
1. "God's Man" - this is the level where in a situations of chaos, there is a man who stands bold and from God send to save the people. Something similar to the Messiah concept.

The requirements are to have masculine lights and both on angles.
Or at least one is angular and masculine, of which case all the planets are Oriental to the Sun (if it is the Sun), or Occidental to the Moon (If the Light angular happens to be the Moon). This is the principle of Doryphory.

And, if the attendant stars themselves should also be in angles, or configured with the MC, the said persons will become great, powerful and mighty in the world and even yet more abundantly so if the configuration made by the attendant stars above the Earth be dexter.

If the planets are oriental to the Sun they need to be in the following sign to it. If the Moon, in the one preceding it.


2. Chieftains/Presidents - leaders of nations.

3. Governor - this can be a governor of a state, or a chief officer in big corporation.

4. Civil Leader - these are people who would not attain some great eminent of rank, but their importance would be seen behind the scenes.

5. Undistinguished - these people are never doing something particularly above the level of ordinance.

6. Base - these people are born to suffer obscurity and adversity.

.

Well, Zoller in his courses changes this rule and takes as Doryphory every planet which is oriental to the Sun and in aspect with it. Vice versa with the Moon. Zoller mentions that this is step lower (as a sub-grade) in the hierarchy.

What he does to calculate the rank of a person is to make a compound Almuten of the places of the planets which are in aspect to the Lights and are oriental/occidental according to the rules.

So lets try this with the example of Brad Pit who's chart is given above in the previous post.
But before doing it I need to mention that Zoller applies the rule of orientality/occidentality such as follows:
Inferior Planets (Venus/Mercury) are Oriental when they are Behind the Sun, and Occidental when they happen to be Before the Sun.
Superior Planets are Oriental when they are Before the Sun and Occidental Behind the Sun.

Lets now look at the chart of Brad Pit and make Compound Almuten for Rank.
Venus and Mercury are oriental, all other are occidental
So, for the Oriental planets we look aspects with the Sun, for the Occidental ones, aspects with the Moon.
Venus and Mercury do not make aspects to Sun.
From the Occidental planets only Jupiter makes an aspect to the Moon.
So we would take only the Almuten of the place of Jupiter.
The Almuten is the Sun.
So, it happens to be that Sun is the Compound Almuten for Reputation.

It is interesting to notice that in his conclusion Zoller talks about why sometimes rules seem that it doesn't work.
As I understood Zoller I think he is of opinion that this is because something is terribly wrong with the whole system of hierarchy in the world we live today.
I need to re-read him again, and I will talk about this more in the later posts.

The subject is not easy to grasp, but I will try to clarify it in the following comments.
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  #28  
Unread 06-13-2013, 01:26 AM
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Re: Ptolemy's 6 Levels of Ranks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
It is interesting to notice that in his conclusion Zoller talks about why sometimes rules seem that it doesn't work.
Well, for starters, Ptolemy did not cast a Natal Chart to determine Rank. He used a Conception Chart, which I discussed here a few years ago.

Gosh, I don't know, how about the Lot of Sudden Advancement?

Otherwise known as the Lot Of Those Suddenly Made Lofty?

It is simply the Lot of Saturn (Saturn to Fortuna).

Doesn't Saturn indicate stability (or not)?

Don't famous people fall from grace into obscurity? Don't the wealthy sometimes lose everything? Sometimes what a chart promises is lasting, sometimes not.

How about the Time of Man?

I can think of another 50 reasons why "it doesn't work."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
As I understood Zoller I think he is of opinion that this is because something is terribly wrong with the whole system of hierarchy in the world we live today.
Too bad. With rare exceptions, people are social creatures and need to live in social communities....with an hierarchy. There are a small number of chiefs, a lot of indians, and a few people who can play either role.

It has always been that way....and always will be that way so long as people exist.

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
I need to re-read him again,...
Please do, because it doesn't sound like any Robert Zoller I know.
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  #29  
Unread 06-13-2013, 01:11 PM
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Re: Ptolemy's 6 Levels of Ranks

Nice to read you again, Bob!
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  #30  
Unread 06-13-2013, 09:43 PM
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Re: Ptolemy's 6 Levels of Ranks

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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Well, for starters, Ptolemy did not cast a Natal Chart to determine Rank. He used a Conception Chart, which I discussed here a few years ago.
Give me a reference, page and quote from Ptolemy, so we can discuss that further on.

Quote:
Gosh, I don't know, how about the Lot of Sudden Advancement?
Gosh, what about it?

Quote:
Otherwise known as the Lot Of Those Suddenly Made Lofty?
OK what about it?

Quote:
Doesn't Saturn indicate stability (or not)?
Why do you ask? How is this relevant to the discussion?

Quote:
Don't famous people fall from grace into obscurity? Don't the wealthy sometimes lose everything? Sometimes what a chart promises is lasting, sometimes not.
And?

Quote:
How about the Time of Man?
You speak about the Ages of Man. Ok what about the Ages of Man?

Quote:
I can think of another 50 reasons why "it doesn't work."
Me too..

Quote:
I need to re-read him again,..
Quote:
Please do, because it doesn't sound like any Robert Zoller I know.
It sounds exactly like Zoller, but it depends which Zoller do you actually know?!

Omni
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  #31  
Unread 06-13-2013, 11:26 PM
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Who then is 'the real Zoller'?

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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
.....Please do, because it doesn't sound like any Robert Zoller I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post

It sounds exactly like Zoller, but it depends which Zoller do you actually know?!

Omni


Curiouser and curiouser – so who is 'the real Zoller'???

I found clues at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/vi...859555cf034248 which discusses Zoller's illness/health issues 20 June 2010 - three years ago now and the most recent post was made there almost a year ago on 24 August 2012

QUOTE:


Deborah Houlding:

'….based on my knowledge of a number of astrological associations that were made with New Library around the same period of time, my belief is that Robert Zoller made a business deal with them, and then later regretted it but was bound by the contract.

So I think it's a legitimate site, with a legitimate right to sell his work, but I'm pretty certain that Robert Zoller is no longer happy about the arrangement, and so no longer endorses the product. I'm speculating but its not hard for anyone involved to give a more official clarification if I'm wrong.....'


Chris Brennan:

'….from talking to Zoller the issue is he hasn't been paid for any of the products that have been sold through New Library for years.

So, while they have legitimate right to sell his work because he signed a contract, Zoller himself is no longer involved and is not receiving any profits from his courses or books. I don't know New Library's story.

That being the case, anyone who signs up for the course through them is being taught with Zoller's materials, and they are basically learning from his course, but they are not being taught by Robert Zoller himself.....'


Clelia Romano:

'....Robert Zoller wrote the CMA and DMA at request of New Library, particularly Luke Andrews, they both corrected issues in Tools and Techniques.

Luke Andrews studied traditional astrology but astrology is not his first interest, although he is skilful scholar - he corrected my examination test - writing important things besides all my answers, and I have them in my mind still now.

Luke Andrews corrects the examination tests and Zoller himself confirmed personally in 2007 that these were elaborated by Zoller. I chose not to opt for tuition 2004, because I heard that Zoller was not stable to give lessons since that time....'


So then, it seems that since
2004 Zoller himself has not given lessons
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 06-13-2013 at 11:54 PM. Reason: added quote for clarification
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  #32  
Unread 06-13-2013, 11:57 PM
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Re: Ptolemy's 6 Levels of Ranks

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Originally Posted by Prisma View Post
Nice to read you again, Bob!
I second that! I always learn so much reading and re-reading those posts too.

Also, may I wish you Bob a belated happy birthday?!

S5
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  #33  
Unread 06-14-2013, 12:09 AM
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Belated Many Happy Solar Returns Bob

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
I second that! I always learn so much reading and re-reading those posts too.

Also, may I wish you Bob a belated happy birthday?!

S5
serafin5 I agree this interesting thread is one to re-read frequently.

I also found some more info shining light on the 'which Zoller is which' phenomenon - apparently there are two websites, one is Zollers the other is not

Vicki commented 16 August 2012 on that same thread I just linked to,

QUOTE:

'....As far as I can understand it New Library have a legal right to sell Robert Zoller's course ( whether they have a moral right is quite another matter).

Robert Zoller seems now to be selling his Diploma course on his own site but for a figure that I would never have been able to pay even though all the work he has done over the years no doubt warrants it.

I feel very fortunate to have been able to study Robert Zoller's course even though I purchased it in complete ignorance of the circumstances prevailing.
...'
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  #34  
Unread 06-14-2013, 01:08 AM
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Re: Belated Many Happy Solar Returns Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
serafin5 I agree this interesting thread is one to re-read frequently.

I also found some more info shining light on the 'which Zoller is which' phenomenon - apparently there are two websites, one is Zollers the other is not

Vicki commented 16 August 2012 on that same thread I just linked to,

QUOTE:

'....As far as I can understand it New Library have a legal right to sell Robert Zoller's course ( whether they have a moral right is quite another matter).

Robert Zoller seems now to be selling his Diploma course on his own site but for a figure that I would never have been able to pay even though all the work he has done over the years no doubt warrants it.

I feel very fortunate to have been able to study Robert Zoller's course even though I purchased it in complete ignorance of the circumstances prevailing.
...'
Wow, amazing info! Looks like I've got a lot more studying to do (facepalm). Thanks for being such a supportive friend Jupiter!

S5
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  #35  
Unread 06-14-2013, 01:28 AM
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Re: Rank of Fame

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Give me a reference, page and quote from Ptolemy, so we can discuss that further on.
Moderator Edit

Book III Chapter 2 The Conception And The Parturition


"The actual moment, in which human generation commences, is, in fact, by nature, the moment of the conception itself; but, in efficacy with regard to subsequent events, it is the parturition or birth.

In every case, however, where the actual time of conception may be ascertained, either casually or by observation, it is useful to remark the effective influence of the configuration of the stars as it existed at that time; and, from that influence, to infer the future personal peculiarities of mind and body. For the seed will, at the very first, and at once, receive its due quality, as then dispensed by the Ambient; and, although in subsequent periods its substance is varied by growth and conformation, it will still, by the laws of nature, congregate, during its growth, only such matter as may be proper to itself, and will become more and more imbued with the peculiar property of the first quality impressed on it at the time of conception."

...and now I'll just cut to the chase....

Book III Chapter 3 Twins

"With respect to the probability of the birth of twins, or a greater number at once, the same places must be observed, as those mentioned in the preceding chapter; that is to say, the places of both luminaries and the ascendant."


Removal by Moderator


That's followed by the section on "Monstrous Or Defective Births"

Removal by Moderator

How stupid do you think Ptolemy was?

Ptolemy is using a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins, or monstrous or defective births?

Really?

Kind of daft, don't you think?

Why would you cast a Natal Chart to determine if a birth was a single birth or multiple births, or if the child was born with birth defects?

That would be a waste of time....you can just look and see....right?

So, logically then, if Ptolemy is not using a Natal Chart, then what chart is he using? He's using a Conception Chart.

I understand your confusion....it took me a few readings before I realized that whoever assembled Ptolemy's work changed the order of the chapters, probably because they did not understand.

Note that Chapter 3 and its two sections, "Fortune Of Rank" and "Twins"
logically follows Chapter 2....."The Conception And The Parturition."

Someone moved those, and then renumbered the chapters. I'd say further that if you had Ptolemy's original work in hand, you would find there is no Chapter IX "Monstrous Or Defective Births", because that is actually the third section and follows section two: "Twins".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Gosh, what about it?
You'll have to study the Lots and learn how to incorporate them.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
How is this relevant to the discussion?
Well, we are talking about Astrology, are we not?

One of the weakest areas of Astrology is chart delineation, and I don't care if you're talking about Traditional Astrology --- real astrology -- or any one of the psycho-babble nutter flavors of Modern Astrology, not to mention people don't understand what Astrology is about.

The chart represents your life. It is as unique as your fingerprints or DNA, so when you see stupid people asking questions like, "Who has this Planet Square that Planet in their chart?" or "Who has this Planet in that Sign?" you know there are insects and small brainless aquatic creatures that know more about Astrology than those idiots.

The Houses/Signs represent topical areas in your life. When you delineate a topic, like 6th House Health, you will look at the condition of all relevant Planets --- are they Direct/Retrograde, Fast/Slow, Increasing/Decreasing in Light, Dignified, Occidental/Oriental, Day/Night and such, and then you will make a judgment about the Planet and its ability to perform.

Then you will look at the Degree and modify your judgment based on Pitted, Azieme, Bright, Empty, Increasing etc.

And then you will modify your judgment further still by looking to see if the Planet is joined to its own Node; to the Head/Tail; besieged by Malefics; aided by Benefics; Combust; Under Beams; Blocked; Received etc.

Now you will make a judgment about the native's health overall.

But you're not done yet. You need to look at the relevant Lots and their rulers and modify your judgment.

Suppose the Lot of Chronic Illness is impeded? Isn't it possible for someone to have a chronic illness like Diabetes Meilitus, but live an otherwise healthy life?

But, of course!

After you've made your judgment, you're still not done, because you have to modify your judgment based on the overall strength of the Chart, and to do that, you'll look at the Chart Ruler, Ascendant Ruler and Sect Ruler.

Suppose you judge a person to be very healthy, does that mean they'll never get ill? No. When you look at the Time Ruler, the Year Ruler (from the Revolution) and the Profected Ruler (from the Profection Chart) you might see that in a particular year, they are in terrible condition and the 6th House and related Lots are activated.

You might conclude they have a minor illness that lays them up, but they recover. If you had previously judged the person to be in ill health generally, then this might be the illness that kills them.

And all of that has to be tempered and viewed in the context of Social Station and Culture.

9,000 years ago, wealthy people in urban centers could summon a doctor in a matter of minutes. People who lived in rural areas -- wealthy or not -- would die before a doctor got to them.

What's changed? Nothing. People in urban centers --- wealthy or not -- can be at a major medical center in a matter of minutes, but those in rural areas would die before the volunteer fire department showed up, or die en route to the county hospital, or die even after being stabilized at the county hospital and transported to a major medical center. And then of course a country with a GDP of $750,000 isn't going to be buying very many $50 Million machines-that-go-"ping" like Americans have in their hospitals.

Two men born in the same minute at locations only 3 kilometers distant: one became king, but the other did not. Social Station.....one was born into nobility. Even though the other did not become king, he was born into an upper class family, and became an industrial magnate....the king of his industry. Had he been born into a middle class family, he would not have been an industrial tycoon, but he would have been prominent amongst the middle class in whatever he did. And if he had been born into a lower class family, he still would have been king of the paupers.

The fact that a chart might promise fame and notoriety does not mean such fame and notoriety will come from birth....you'll have to look at the Ascendant Triplicity Ruler and relevant Houses/Signs which indicate stages of life (eg the 10th House is Middle Age while the 5th House is After-Death).

Some people become famous at death, others after they die.

The reason we look at Saturn and the Lot of Saturn is to see if people are suddenly thrust into the lime-light, for how long, and also to see if people change Social Classes, and when in their life they might move up...or down....in Social Class.

Saturn always indicates the potential for change, and also durability for anything, be it wealth, fame, career, love or health. Granted, it is easier to see in Horary and Electional Charts, as well as Mundane Charts, and to some extent in Revolutions and Profections, than in Natal Charts.

The ability to change, as well as durability, is important when looking at the 1st House, and related issues like alcoholism, addictions of all kinds, so-called "battered women," spouse abusers (male and female), child molesters, sexual offenders, criminals, "evil people", freaking mean people and so on.

That also applies to the mentally ill, in addition to those who are not mentally ill per se, but are otherwise emotionally unhealthy and engage in destructive behaviors, like relationship-jumpers and such.

Change is impossible, without the potential to change, or without an indication of instability or a lack of duration...Saturn, dude.

You can look at that when delineating 3rd, 4th and 5th House topics, like relationships with siblings, kin, parents and children. 12th House issues like your enemies.

Look at the 10th Sign, the MC, Rulers and Saturn/Lot to see if people will change careers/professions...if ever....twice, thrice or many times, all the time.

Those things will also tell you when someone will achieve fame or notoriety, peak in their profession, how long those things will last in their lives and so on.

Hopefully, you understand the relevance now.
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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."

Last edited by wintersprite1; 06-14-2013 at 05:10 PM. Reason: personal attacks removed
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  #36  
Unread 06-14-2013, 03:38 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

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[/FONT]
Quote:
Book III Chapter 2 The Conception And The Parturition

"The actual moment, in which human generation commences, is, in fact, by nature, the moment of the conception itself; but, in efficacy with regard to subsequent events, it is the parturition or birth.

In every case, however, where the actual time of conception may be ascertained, either casually or by observation, it is useful to remark the effective influence of the configuration of the stars as it existed at that time; and, from that influence, to infer the future personal peculiarities of mind and body. For the seed will, at the very first, and at once, receive its due quality, as then dispensed by the Ambient; and, although in subsequent periods its substance is varied by growth and conformation, it will still, by the laws of nature, congregate, during its growth, only such matter as may be proper to itself, and will become more and more imbued with the peculiar property of the first quality impressed on it at the time of conception."
Why did you stop quoting? Let me continue with the quote.
But in the case of those who do not know [the moment of conception], which happens for the most part, it is fitting to follow the beginning for the moment [of birth], and it is necessary to attend to this, as it is the greatest and the very beginning and is lacking with respect to the conception only in this—that the circumstances prior to birth can be foreknown through that beginning. For even if one may call the one “beginning”[1] and the other, as it were, “inception,”[2] its magnitude becomes second [in rank] with respect to time, equal and even more perfect in potentiality, and the former might almost with justice be named the genesis of the human seed, and the latter the genesis of a man. For the new-born babe takes on at that time very manly additional [characteristics] which did not belong to it before when it was in the womb—indeed, those individual characteristics which are of human nature alone.[3] And as for his bodily figure, even if it seems that the surrounding [nature] at the time of birth contributes nothing to his being such and such, it does contribute to his coming into the light in accordance with a familiar figure of the surrounding [nature], since after the completion [of his bodily figure] nature gives an impulse to exit at a condition of similar type to the one which did the initial shaping of his parts. Thus, it is reasonable to suppose that the figure of the stars at birth is indicative of such [physical] matters, not however as entirely productive [of them], but rather as of necessity and by nature highly similar to the productive power.


Quote:
...and now I'll just cut to the chase....
You can cut all you want.

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Quote:
Ptolemy is using a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins, or monstrous or defective births?

Really?

Kind of daft, don't you think?

Why would you cast a Natal Chart to determine if a birth was a single birth or multiple births, or if the child was born with birth defects?

That would be a waste of time....you can just look and see....right?

So, logically then, if Ptolemy is not using a Natal Chart, then what chart is he using? He's using a Conception Chart.


The problem with your exposure - even though conception chart is very much important as I will show in my quote from Abū Bakr – is you setting things in stone just like that. I know that you are an army person and you want to command and set things into stone just because they sound logical to you, but your definitive conclusion here is way out of hand. You want to tell me that the whole later tradition was just wrong by using natal chart and not conception chart just because they didn’t get Ptolemy just ‘the way you are getting it now’. Come on!


Abū Ali in his ‘On Nativities’ speaks about this thing.
Chapter 1.2: On the projection of seed into the womb
The earliest sages, who were of sound intellect and were proven in the significations of the stars, said that the projection of seed has a likeness, in the signification and status of the native, above all the significations taken from the Ascendant when the native goes out from the mother’s uterus. For the projection of seed into the womb is just like the heat of fire, which exceeds all hotness of baths, and just like the string in a bow, iron in a spear, a sword in the hand, and just like the weight in a wheel; and it is the root from which the said tilings are extracted and established. Therefore, if you knew the hour and day of the projection of seed into the womb, and the places of the planets in the months which signify that seed, then you will be secure regarding what judgment of yours you could establish and make firm. Which if you were ignorant of this, perhaps you would be deceived. Therefore, I wish to hand down the status of the falling of the sperm, from the day on which it fell up to the day on which he will go out from the mother’s uterus, and the quantity of his stay in the womb, and the order of the planets with him, by the command of God, just as the sages stated and preserved in their books.


It is true that this is important, if one knows the conception hour. What I don’t like in your exposure is your assumptions and your ‘all or nothing at all’ attitude. Above where you stopped quoting (probably intentionally) from Ptolemy, he goes on to say that if one doesn’t know the hour of conception should use the natal chart because “it is necessary to attend to this, as it is the greatest and the very beginning and is lacking with respect to the conception only in this—that the circumstances prior to birth can be foreknown through that beginning”.


Abū Ali gives methods for knowing the hour of conception, but this doesn’t mean that they didn’t use the natal chart. What Abū Ali describes in this chapter is a process of planetary influence during the period of gestation, chapter that is very mystical in its character, and we are certainly missing some precious details of this practice, which can’t be catch through reading the chapter only. I have spoken with several astrologers who are into Arabian astrology and they think as I think too, that this is somehow related to the Gnostic teachings (and probably neo-Platonic) of the incarnation of the souls.

You assume that you are catching Ptolemy and that no one else ever thought of this chapter and this matter, Moderator removed .
[U]

Moderator Removed
Quote:
it took me a few readings before I realized that whoever assembled Ptolemy's work changed the order of the chapters, probably because they did not understand.
Moderator Removed

Quote:
Note that Chapter 3 and its two sections, "Fortune Of Rank" and "Twins"
logically follows Chapter 2....."The Conception And The Parturition."

Someone moved those, and then renumbered the chapters. I'd say further that if you had Ptolemy's original work in hand, you would find there is no Chapter IX "Monstrous Or Defective Births", because that is actually the third section and follows section two: "Twins"
.
What is your source for this 'change in order'? Of which critical edition you speak and of which translation?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus [IMG]file:///C:\Users\ILESPA~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
Gosh, what about it?

Quote:
You'll have to study the Lots and learn how to incorporate them.
Moderator Removed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus [IMG]file:///C:\Users\ILESPA~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
Why do you ask?
Moderator Removed Yeah, you are full with assumptions, but you nailed this down. You got it right actually Moderator removed .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus [IMG]file:///C:\Users\ILESPA~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
How is this relevant to the discussion?
Quote:
Well, we are talking about Astrology, are we not?


Removed by Moderator
[/FONT]
Quote:
One of the weakest areas of Astrology is chart delineation, and I don't care if you're talking about Traditional Astrology --- real astrology -- Moderator Removed not to mention people don't understand what Astrology is about.
Moderator Removed


Quote:
The Houses/Signs represent topical areas in your life. When you delineate a topic, like 6th House Health, you will look at the condition of all relevant Planets --- are they Direct/Retrograde, Fast/Slow, Increasing/Decreasing in Light, Dignified, Occidental/Oriental, Day/Night and such, and then you will make a judgment about the Planet and its ability to perform.
Moderator Removal And what are my all the postings around this forum, if not implementing that astrology of which you are speaking in the quote above?


Omni,

[1] arche. A true source or beginning, one which also rules over what comes later in the manner of a cause.

[2] katarche. The general word for an electional or horary beginning in Greek astrology. This is an extremely important remark for it indicates that Ptolemy himself would regard the natal chart not causally, but rather as a significant moment in an ongoing process or ritual, one which can be used to divine later events. (See translator's preface to The Astrological Record of the Early Sages in Greek.)

[3] While life begins at conception, Ptolemy seems to be arguing that what makes one truly and individually human comes about from the moment of birth. Such a doctrine would have interesting consequences for the current debates concerning abortion and when a foetus becomes a human being. [RH]

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 06-15-2013 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Removal of personal attacks
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Unread 06-14-2013, 05:25 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Please knock off the personal attacks. This debate can and should continue and respect of all members comes first. I will continue to remove attacking remarks and eventually remove postings if need be.
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Unread 06-14-2013, 07:29 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Yes, in original Ancient Greek, have you? Or you rely on bad translations?
I chose a translation that everyone has access via the internet. In the future, just for you, I'll choose translations that are only accessible by visiting the British Museum in London.

Regardless, the translation is not at issue, but nice attempt to deflect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Why did you stop quoting?
Because it wasn't necessary to prove my point, but nice try at deflecting.

Was Ptolemy using Natal Charts to predict multiple births, or birth defects?

It's a simple question, and the answer is "No.' Ptolemy -- like others -- was using a Conception Chart to determine Multiple Births, Monstrous Births and Rank of Fame.

One thing you can infer is that the Conception Chart is more powerful and provides a clearer picture of the Native -- at least for certain topics, and so it was preferred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
The problem with your exposure....
....is that it fills in all of the gaps....the bits and pieces that you left out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
....even though conception chart is very much important as I will show in my quote from Abū Bakr....


We're talking about Ptolemy, not Abu Bakr, but nice attempt to deflect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
...– is you setting things in stone just like that.
I never set anything in stone.

You said Ptolemy used Natal Charts to determine Rank of Fame.

I pointed out that Ptolemy used Conception Charts, and that Ptolemy's work had been edited --- probably because those issues conflicted with someone's personal or religious beliefs, or because they were attempting to justify something.

The purpose of Astrology is to know the Future, not know the Past.

Going through all the motions to cast a Natal Chart to predict Twins is stupid, even more so since it would be after-the-fact.

You're ignoring the context of the time period...men in the Middle Class through Nobility often had multiple wives....hence the purpose of knowing at conception if a child will rule or wield power of any kind....knowing the gender of the child....and knowing if it will be a single or multiple birth.

There's no evidence Ptolemy used Natal Charts to determine Rank of Fame, and the fact that Ptolemy goes to great lengths to lay out a method to erect a Conception Chart using a Natal Chart says a great deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
I know that you are an army person...
22 years ago...but nice attempt to deflect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
...but your definitive conclusion here is way out of hand.
My analysis is spot on....and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
You want to tell me that the whole later tradition was just wrong by using natal chart and not conception chart just because they didn’t get Ptolemy just ‘the way you are getting it now’.
Yes.

Want evidence?

Why did Medieval Astrologers change the method of "Body-Guarding?"

Ptolemy used the Conception Chart to determine Rank of Fame...and his method of Body-Guarding only works with the Conception Chart.

Medieval Astrologers were mistakenly trying to apply Ptolemy's method to Natal Charts.....and it didn't work....so they came up with a new method of Body-Guarding....and when that didn't work, centuries later they came up with another method of Body-Guarding.

So, yeah, there are three methods of identifying Body-Guards and the reason is that Medieval Astrologers were forced to develop an alternative method since Ptolemy's did not work with Natal Charts.....and when that failed, they developed a second method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Common!
Common? Sense? That's what I'm bringing to the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Abū Ali in his ‘On Nativities’ speaks about this thing.
That would all be fascinating if it was even remotely relevant, but Abu Ali is not the issue here...Ptolemy is, but nice attempt at deflecting.

To the extent that Abu Ali might be relevant, then you have unwittingly provided evidence that Ptolemy's text was already altered before Abu Ali received it....possibly altered by Pseudo-Ptolemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
What I don’t like in your exposure is your assumptions and your ‘all or nothing at all’ attitude.
On the contrary, I pointed out that just because a chart may show the potential for fame or high-standing rank, that potential cannot be fulfilled unless other factors in the chart support it. I also pointed out that fame and rank are not permanent...they can change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Above where you stopped quoting (probably intentionally) from Ptolemy, he goes on to say that if one doesn’t know the hour of conception should use the natal chart because “it is necessary to attend to this, as it is the greatest and the very beginning and is lacking with respect to the conception only in this—that the circumstances prior to birth can be foreknown through that beginning”.
Ptolemy's work has been altered....I have provided clear and compelling evidence to support my claim. Sections of Ptolemy's texts have been moved around and even chapters renumbered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
You assume that you are catching Ptolemy and that no one else ever thought of this chapter and this matter, we were sleeping and you are enlightening us here.
Ptolemy is blameless. Ptolemy did not alter his own texts after he died...that's kind of silly, right?

Someone else altered the texts, probably in an attempt to justify something. Someone wanted a particular person to rule, and changed the texts to alter the method of determine Rank of Fame in order to support a fraudulent claim.

Such things have often happened throughout history. John the Bishop of Rome forged documents in order to mislead Emperor Justinian into making John the head of all bishops, and chief prosecutor of heretics. That happened in 533 CE, and John effectively became the first pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Yeah, YOU confused me, just as you try to confuse people around here with your ‘revolutionary award winning ideas’.
What is so confusing?

Did Ptolemy cast a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins, yes or no?

It's a simple question.

I'll rephrase the question:

Who here on this forum would cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict the birth of twins?

Who would
cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict if the child will have birth defects?

Who here on this forum would cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict the gender of the child?

Okay, so, what, a female child is born and you're going to cast a Natal Chart to determine the gender of the female child?

Got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
What is your source for this 'change in order'? Of which critical edition you speak and of which translation?
I am the source.

I was a cop, a detective, a private investigator and a paralegal, so it's not like I don't know how to conduct forensic analysis...not that it matters since it only requires common sense.

Ptolemy is discussing the Rank of Fame, immediately followed by Twins....
"With respect to the probability of the birth of twins, or a greater number at once, the same places must be observed, as those mentioned in the preceding chapter; that is to say, the places of both luminaries and the ascendant."

And the preceding chapter is what? The Fortune of Rank.

Again....I ask......is Ptolemy using a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins?

No, Ptolemy is using the Conception Chart to predict the Fortune of Rank and to predict Twins and also to predict Monstrous Births.

They didn't have printing presses in those days...works were copied by hand, and very obviously someone copied Ptolemy's work and edited it by changing the order of the texts.

That much is overwhelmingly clear.

If Ptolemy's method of determining Rank of Fame using his method of identifying Body-Guards worked with Natal Charts, then why were Medieval Astrologers forced to change the method of identifying Body-Guards?

And Medieval Astrologers did not change the method once, rather they changed it twice.

Why?

Because Ptolemy's Body-Guards didn't work with Natal Charts...Medieval Astrologers were forced to abandon that method and invent a new method....which ultimately failed and required that they invent a second method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
And how’s that that you are full with presumptions that I do not know how to incorporate them? Who thought you to be like this? Bad education or bad temper?
Your own comments....just to refresh your memory, you said....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Gosh, what about it?

OK what about it?

Why do you ask? How is this relevant to the discussion?

And?

You speak about the Ages of Man. Ok what about the Ages of Man?
...in response to my mention of the Lot of Sudden Advancement, the role of Saturn/Lot of Saturn, and the Time Ruler.

I merely provided additional critical information to forum members by making them aware that:

1] in spite of what the chart portends for fame and fortune, a person can suddenly advance in social class and standing, or in their profession, or become famous and renown, if the Lot so indicates; and

2] a person's rank, fame, standing or social class is not permanent or lasting, unless the chart promises that, and to make that determination, one looks at the condition and placement of Saturn in the chart; and

3] some people achieve rank and fame from the moment of birth, but for others it will not occur until later in life, and that the Time Ruler, as well as the placement of relevant Planets in the Houses indicating the stages of life can assist in making that judgment (and certainly Revolutions and Profections); and

4] finally, all considerations have to be weighed against a person's present rank, social stating, status and culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Yeah, you were sent from the heavens to teach us what astrology is.
Well, that would be impossible since there are no heavens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Good morning. And what are my all the postings around this forum, if not implementing that astrology of which you are speaking in the quote above?
I don't know. I don't read all your postings.

I only know it's kind of daft to tell someone they are destined for fame, without also telling them when in their life they will acquire such fame, under what circumstances, and how long their fame will last.

When delineating the 2nd House, you can know if someone will acquire wealth, how much wealth relative to their social class or standing, the source of that wealth, when in their life they will acquire the bulk of their wealth.....and how long they will retain that wealth, and when they might lose all or part of their wealth...and Saturn will play a big role in that.

I mention that, because you can use your 2nd House judgment to assist with your 10th House judgment, since wealth and prominence/fame are often (but not always) related.

Note that from the 6th House you can judge someone's general state of health, if their health will change, when in their life they may move from a condition of poor health to good health, or good health to poor health, the circumstances, and how long their good or poor health will last.

Sometimes health issues cause prominent people to step down, and that's especially true for athletes and entertainers, and they are relegated to obscurity.

Did I mention the 2nd, 6th and 10th Houses trine? Imagine that.
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Unread 06-14-2013, 08:50 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Just a short reply cause I don't have the time to go all over again through your points, or rather say miss-points.

I am sick of so called modern astrology Ptolemaic adorers who think that everything begins and ends with Ptolemy, while in the same time haven't read anything further from him. Ptolemy, then Alan Leo, end of story.

Second of all, until you sit down and learn Ancient Greek, or at least, take Schmidt's translation and study it diligently alongside the preface made by him, also the footnotes upon some difficult Greek words, you will never be able to understand Ptolemy, and will sound smart for people here who are not so much in to the matter, and will receive 'likes' of your posts from the same.

You must understand that Greek was not Ptolemy's first language and his Greek is extremely difficult, for reading, and not to speak for translating.
Also, you probably never heard, but Ptolemy WAS NOT practical astrologer, and he just made up his Ptolemaic terms since he - as he points out - 'found them in some old book' (which one?), when Egyptian set of terms are much older and of wider usage among Hellenistic astrologers.

I can see that apart from Ptolemy, you haven't read any other Hellenistic astrologer and not to speak about Arabian or medieval. You seem smart for people who are not into the matter and the problem is that people like you spread the disease of poorly understood tradition, like you are demonstrating here with the conception chart - you took that one single element of Ptolemy and made it the whole your philosophy of astrologizing, in the same time paradoxically, using natal charts around the forum.

Your eclecticism and proclaiming your self as a 'source', is a sign of lost humbleness. Once humbleness is lost when approaching the tradition, you are done. No more learning, cause you think that you are 'already there', you 'already know'.

Omni,
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Unread 06-14-2013, 10:02 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Dear Sirs
Omnisphericus and Bob Zemco

I know I may be out of line here but instead of trying to prove superiority you Both should put all that energy to good use by helping members on here who could use the help of two so knowledgeable astrologers like yourselves. Be practical, it is the only way to prove what actually works in astrology.
By the way, I have a B.A in ancient greek literature and modern greek. If you need any help in any translations, I'd be glad to help.

Just my humble opinion

Peace,
Christine





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  #41  
Unread 06-14-2013, 10:25 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Dear Sirs
Omnisphericus and Bob Zemco

I know I may be out of line here but instead of trying to prove superiority you Both should put all that energy to good use by helping members on here who could use the help of two so knowledgeable astrologers like yourselves. Be practical, it is the only way to prove what actually works in astrology.
By the way, I have a B.A in ancient greek literature and modern greek. If you need any help in any translations, I'd be glad to help.

Just my humble opinion

Peace,
Christine
Socrates:
I am the wisest man in the world because i know one thing. That i know nothing!

Hi chris10

Thanks for that sensible and timely post of which - being a stickler for detail - I would alter just one word

i.e. the word 'should'

- btw simply this is only my tedious opinion
that I would prefer a slightly different phrase:

that JMHO both Bob Zemco and Omnisphericus
'COULD choose to be practical in order to assist members determine what works in astrology' if that is what both would like to do.

And since both these two knowledgeable astrologers have given plenty of time and energy for free to our forum, methinks that is their top priority.
I for one appreciate both their opinions

So in alphabetical order then

Thank you Bob Zemco and thank you Omnisphericus

So endeth today's lecture
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  #42  
Unread 06-15-2013, 05:01 AM
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Re: Rank of Fame

A guy like me could care less what Ptolemy did or didn't do-personally I think that IF we had close indications of the actual time of conception the conception chart would give us the fundamentals of everything we need to know about the basic trends of the individual (like an event chart can do for an event!) However, I believe also that the "rank of fame" and other life factors, can well be delineated from a natal chart, using the various techniques (including Vedic ones, especially the ashtakavarga methods!) available to us from several of the historical authors...

Last edited by dr. farr; 06-15-2013 at 05:04 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 06-15-2013, 10:11 AM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
A guy like me could care less what Ptolemy did or didn't do-personally I think that IF we had close indications of the actual time of conception the conception chart would give us the fundamentals of everything we need to know about the basic trends of the individual (like an event chart can do for an event!) However, I believe also that the "rank of fame" and other life factors, can well be delineated from a natal chart, using the various techniques (including Vedic ones, especially the ashtakavarga methods!) available to us from several of the historical authors...
Some follow Ptolemy, others follow Valens, others prefer Dorotheus and so on and so forth - that's not unusual for astrologers to have preferences for different methods. There's plenty of room in the astrological world for different opinions

Nevertheless, dr. farr, although you prefer Vedic/ashtakarvarga methods in this particular case the OP is delineating Rank of Fame by using the methods of Ptolemy, therefore JMO to focus on Ptolemy is obviously an inescapable and very relevant matter for the purposes of this thread discussion.


btw for those who are unaware or unfamiliar with the idea of a 'Conception chart' there's a thread discussion on the subject at:
'The Pre-Natal Epoch, Also Known As The Trutine of Hermes
'
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."



"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey.


– details viewable at http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

The prenatal Epoch idea is so well known that astrology software allows the user to calculate their likely prenatal Epoch. The idea of the prenatal Epoch is also useful because it is often decisive in chart rectification
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  #44  
Unread 06-15-2013, 11:26 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

Hi chris10



Thanks for that sensible and timely post of which - being a stickler for detail - I would alter just one word



i.e. the word 'should'



- btw simply this is only my tedious opinion


that I would prefer a slightly different phrase:



that JMHO both Bob Zemco and Omnisphericus


'COULD choose to be practical in order to assist members determine what works in astrology' if that is what both would like to do.



And since both these two knowledgeable astrologers have given plenty of time and energy for free to our forum, methinks that is their top priority.


I for one appreciate both their opinions



So in alphabetical order then



Thank you Bob Zemco and thank you Omnisphericus



So endeth today's lecture


Hi JUP thanks for that


That's much better


I'm sure both astrologers weren't annoyed by my silly post,
they are Both too Great to bother with such an insignificant instance.


To be honest my post was just a knee jerk reaction/response (natal Mars in Aries )

I'm not good at at sugarcoating (scorpio in 3rd, Saturn on MC) and

I can't stand seeing people arguing especially when it leads nowhere (my natal Sun trine moon and venus trine mars like balance and peace)
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Unread 11-16-2013, 06:32 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Rank of Fame

Omnisphericus, thanks again for all the great threads you put into this forum

I am even more convinced after reading the charts of Brad Pitt and Obama that we must use the whole house system.

Who could vote for Jupiter being the the 5th house for Brad Pitt?
He has become famous, and it is for entertainment, Jupiter is expanding his 5th house.
He has indeed also surely expanded HUGELY in terms of having children, again 5th house

Still learning and having fun at it.
I'll keep using the whole house system.
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  #46  
Unread 11-18-2013, 07:38 PM
may28gemini
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Re: Rank of Fame

Don't forget Brad Pitt loves kids and have a bunch of them (natural and adopted). I think those with Jupiter in the 5th will always be surrounded by young ones, no matter what.
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Unread 11-18-2013, 09:02 PM
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
Omnisphericus, thanks again for all the great threads you put into this forum

I am even more convinced after reading the charts of Brad Pitt and Obama that we must use the whole house system.

Who could vote for Jupiter being the the 5th house for Brad Pitt?
He has become famous, and it is for entertainment, Jupiter is expanding his 5th house.
He has indeed also surely expanded HUGELY in terms of having children, again 5th house

Still learning and having fun at it.
I'll keep using the whole house system.
Keep in mind that NOT EVERYONE who has natal Jupiter in 5th necessarily has ANY children AT ALL or is a famous entertainer

None of the other kids born within moments of Brad Pitt
at that same hospital or location
with very similar planetary alignments
including Jupiter in 5th
are famous
Only Brad Pitt is

THE CONDITION of natal Jupiter in 5th
as well as the house and sign location of the dispositor of natal Jupiter in 5th
plus CONDITION of that dispositor
plus location of arabic parts
are the determinants of whether or not Jupiter is able to fulfill it's natal significations or promise

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Don't forget Brad Pitt loves kids and have a bunch of them (natural and adopted). I think those with Jupiter in the 5th will always be surrounded by young ones, no matter what.
Not necessarily, as already explained
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  #48  
Unread 11-18-2013, 09:47 PM
may28gemini
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Re: Rank of Fame

Yup, I know things have been explained, and some have been explained to death but I still don't agree.
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Unread 11-18-2013, 10:07 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Rank of Fame

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Keep in mind that NOT EVERYONE who has natal Jupiter in 5th necessarily has ANY children AT ALL or is a famous entertainer

None of the other kids born within moments of Brad Pitt
at that same hospital or location
with very similar planetary alignments
including Jupiter in 5th
are famous
Only Brad Pitt is

THE CONDITION of natal Jupiter in 5th
as well as the house and sign location of the dispositor of natal Jupiter in 5th
plus CONDITION of that dispositor
plus location of arabic parts
are the determinants of whether or not Jupiter is able to fulfill it's natal significations or promise


Not necessarily, as already explained
Yes, that's what OP has enlightened us about (although some of it I still have to read a bit more about) ... but I'm just pointing out that it is more likely that his dignified Jupiter is in 5th house and not the 6th.
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  #50  
Unread 11-19-2013, 02:15 AM
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Not necessary all people have Jupiter in 5th will have many children. For example an exalted Jupiter in cancer, can be fond of speculation and it is also the house of risk taker if exalted this person with other natal supportive conditions can gain through speculating sports and games. Children is only one manifestation of 5th, can very well be great in bed, art, creativity of any kind and the condition of the hobby. A house of creation not necessary only mean a physical birth and children. To most people it would be just making love and making babies but to other more talent individual it can be manifested as a creation of art, like many famous movie stars, while for an astrologer could very well be developing a fantastic gaming model to gain trough speculation. The link with 9th house will be speculating through oversea sources. Well this is real life example. Must read the whole chart don't be so fast on judgement about Jupiter in 5th.

5th is just meaning creation of life force and the brilliant shine of the life force as the home of Leo. Some can put their life force on a project to express their ego and some can use their physical body to make babies to extend their Ego/life force through children. Not always be an alive object.

Last edited by poyi; 11-19-2013 at 02:19 AM.
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