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  #1  
Unread 06-07-2013, 02:13 PM
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The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year. I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past - perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure. I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.

Any help much appreciated,

Best wishes,

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Unread 06-08-2013, 07:56 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Do you mean the oktatopon, because otherwise I have never heard of an 8 sign zodiac. Do you have a source for it?
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Unread 06-08-2013, 09:36 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year. I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past - perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure. I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.

Any help much appreciated, Best wishes,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Do you mean the oktatopon, because otherwise I have never heard of an 8 sign zodiac. Do you have a source for it?
Rumen Kolev has written papers on this subject and has even written software with modules for the study including amongst many other interesting options, the Oktatopon Konrad has mentioned - Rumen Kolev's website provides an email address and here's a link to a page illustrating the software http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...d=27&Itemid=43

QUOTE:

'…..containing many modules for research in
Ancient Mesopotamian Astrology as practiced from 5,500 BC to AD 75.
The Babylonian Zodiac,
The Sphaera Hermetica,
The Celestial Pentagram of Venus,
The Circle of Petosiris,
The Oktatopon,
Heliacal Calendar,
Paranatellonta,
Parapegma,
Heliacal phases of stars and planets,
2D images of the zodiac with the stars,
The Hermetic Zodiac with all 3 kinds of projection of the stars (simple, paranatellonta and ortus).....'


'….Ancient Mesopotamian Astrology, according to the tradition, is coming directly from the illumination of the first Hermes, the prophet Enoh, Lord Enmeduranki from pre-diluvial Sippar in 5,500 BC. Being behind the mist of 7,500 years, we can see but only the outlines of that Original Astral Revelation. However, drawing from Akkadian texts, we can completely recreate the last reconstruction made by the third Hermes in around 770 BC. ….'
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Unread 06-08-2013, 10:35 PM
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Hi. Thanks very much both of you. I've sent a message to him, so hopefully he'll get back to me.

Best wishes
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Unread 06-09-2013, 05:56 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

If it is the oktatopon you want to find out more about, I found this article a little while ago: http://www.horaryastrology.info/2010/11/octatopos.html
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Unread 06-09-2013, 06:20 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Oh, gosh. One of the Hellenistic astrologers might have used it. There is some debate as to whether he really intended an 8-house system, or whether part of his text was corrupted because elsewhere he gives the full 12-house system. I am thinking either Manilius or Vettius Valens. I can look these up tomorrow if you can't find the right source.

It wasn't horoscopic but many cultures used an 8-fold division of the solar year. They not only divided up the calendar by solstices and equinoxes, but also by the intersticial dates. To wit:

Around Feb. 1: Candlemas, St. Brigid's Day, Imbolc
" May 1: May Day (big as a pagan festival, strangely adopted by communists)
"August 1: Lughnasadh, Lammas
Around Nov. 1: Halloween, All Saints Day

May Day was celebrated as the first day of real spring in northern countries, where March 21 was still very cold. Apparently in warmer Ireland, Feb 1 was the spring date.
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Unread 06-09-2013, 07:28 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Thanks Konrad and Waybread. I read the article, Konrad, and was disappointed to find that although there are 8 segments in the system discussed, they have the same meanings as the first 8 houses of our present 12 sign system. I was hoping to find an 8-segment system (of houses and/or signs) in which the first two signs/houses fit with our general understanding of the first quadrant of the cycle, and in which the first 4 signs/houses fit with our general understanding of the first hemisphere of the cycle, and so on. In other words a cycle of signs or houses which mirrors the lunation cycle.

Such a system would have four personal signs instead of six, and wouldn't represent the elements or modes as we understand them. The system described in the article must attribute the fire and cardinality of the first house to the first 45 degrees of the cycle, since its meaning is the same as that of the first house as we understand it today.

Thanks Waybread - yes the points midway between the cardinal points are certainly important in many religious calendars. I guess I really need to find an 8-segment system which was fairly established, at least for a while, because I'm interested in the what the meanings of 45 degree segments of the wheel, in the same way that we are generally mainly interested in 30 degree segments of the wheel.

Best wishes
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:26 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Hi miquar.

I don't have any information on the 8 house system (though I'm very much interested myself.) I did want to point out though that you mentioned the fire and cardinality of the first house. Cardinal I'd agree with, but the elements weren't associated with astrology until much later. Ptolemy does not mention them at all, and I believe the general consensus is that the elements weren't associated with the triplicities/trigons until Valens. I think the elements and a lot of the reasoning behind today's astrology originated with the Greek astrologers/scientists adapting astrology to Aristotle's world view.

I have been curious about whether the 8 house system would somehow be related to the planetary joys and exaltations.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 04:19 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

We find the elements connected with the signs, etc, in Manilius (over a century before Ptolemy and Valens) Elemental considerations arose (at the latest) with Plato, and were an integral component of the Hermetic outlook which (largely) shaped the systemization of Greek astrology, via the Alexandrian syncetism (200 BC-300 AD period) Actually, Aristotle modified the 5 element Platonic model to the 4 element formal which came to dominate Western elemental thinking by the time of the Roman Empire, and of course, Ptolemy's astrological model was built upon this more literalist Aristotelian foundation (rather than upon the earlier analogical/symbolic model of Plato, and, indeed, of Pythagoras as well)
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Unread 06-10-2013, 04:30 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Thaks, dr. farr. I knew I was messing a few things up. Aristotle was a student of Plato.

Re the 8 house system...do you have any pointers/references? I was considering that the Egyptians, who (I'm probably mis-remembering again) got their astrology from Thoth, who later became Hermes, might have something to say??
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Unread 06-10-2013, 04:39 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Hi Miquar...best of luck with your book Let me know when it is published !
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Unread 06-10-2013, 04:48 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Except for the 8 fold division of the sky (solar division) mentioned by Waybread, and the ancient Chinese division of the heavens into 4 giant constellations (of 90 degrees each, each of the 4 further sub-divided into 7 smaller asterisms called sieu, ie Lunar Mansions) I too am unaware of any historical 8 sign astrological model.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 09:39 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Thanks tsmall. Yes I guess they couldn't have thought of Aries as a fire sign at that time, though I do believe that the four elements that we use in the West today have been implicit in the meanings of the twelve signs since the wheel was first divided in this way.

Thanks also dr. farr. I'll assume that there was never an established 8-segment sign system then, as I'm sure you would have come across it during your studies over the years.

Do you know if meanings were attributed to the 90 degree constellations that you mentioned, or whether only the individual lunar mansions were given meaning? I'm interested in any systems of attributing meaning to the zodiac which are based on division of the circle into 180, 120, 90, 60 or 45 degree segments.

Thanks for your encouragement astrologer02. I'm hoping that I'll have finished writing the book by the end of this year and am aiming to have it available by the Jupiter Uranus Pluto t square of Spring next year. I'll ask someone on the forum to review it for others, and also post some excerpts on the 'advertising' board.

Thanks again for all help on this thread x
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Unread 06-10-2013, 09:29 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

I would suggest checking out Manilius, Astronomica. (If not on line, you can get a print copy from your nearest university library or via Interlibrary Loan at your nearest public library branch. I have the G. P. Goold, transl., Loeb Classical Library edition.)

Manilius gives different accountings of house systems ("temples") in different parts of Astronomica. In one part (book 2: 968-970) he seems to talk about "the octatropos" but some scholars believe that the author's carelessness or subsequent corruption of the text accounts for the last four missing houses.
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Unread 06-11-2013, 03:45 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Right: editor Gould, et al, has shown that the "octotropos" referenced in the text was a later corrupted addition interloped into the book by an anonmyous writer.
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Unread 06-11-2013, 07:43 PM
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Thanks Waybread and dr. farr. I think I'll steer clear of the octotropos.

Best wishes everyone.
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Unread 06-11-2013, 09:44 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year. I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past - perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure. I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.
Beware strange web-sites foisting bizarre theories on the unsuspecting.

This is just a misunderstanding by people who couldn't figure out the doctrine brought to us by an Eastern Greek....as opposed to the stupid Western Greeks. Eastern Greeks -- we're talking Lydians and Phrygians here...lived in Central Anatolia....yeah, modern Turkey.

Eastern Greeks were a conduit for information from Mesopotamia via the Sumerians. The Eastern Greeks passed on knowledge in math, science, astronomy and astrology first from the Amorites (mistakenly referred to as "Babylonians") and later from the Babylonians (mistakenly referred to as "Chaldeans") to the nucleus of what would later become "Western Civilization".....

This Eastern Greek -- Nechepso was his name -- espoused a doctrine of 8 power regions in the Chart, and you know them as Angular and Succeedent Houses/Signs.

That, is the source of the 8-Sign Zodiac Nonsense, in spite of the fact that Nechepso never said there were 8-Signs, rather he said there were 8 regions of power in the Chart.

Keywords are "Willing" (Angular), "Hoping" (Succeedent) and "Receding" (Cadent).

This doctrine impacts Natal, Mundane, Revolution, Horary and Electional Astrology.

A Planet will do whatever it will do....good or bad....if in one of the 8 power regions. Naturally, a Planet's condition will affect its ability to do whatever it will do.

This doctrine caused some confusion, leading some of the later astrologers, mostly Hellenistic --- like Dorotheus, but even Zael used it, to adopt the 7-Sign/House System of power, which was the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 12th Houses/Signs.

Surely you can see the confusion --- the MC can fall in the 9th, 10th or 11th House/Sign, and so how can you have a king with a 9th House MC or MC Ruler in the 9th?

And what about the 2nd House of Wealth?

That leads to weird things like the 15° Rule )Ptolemy) where a Planet within 15° of the Ascendant (or MC) is considered to be in the Asc/MC.

That's what happens when subtle (and not so subtle) nuances get lost with the transmission of knowledge over time. I don't think Nechepso & Co or Ptolemy & Co are necessarily wrong....in fact, I'm not even sure they were talking about the same thing, and there's every indication that the Asc/MC were treated separate and apart from the House/Signs.

Even so, they all still pretty much say the same thing, that there's a distinction between looking at the Chart as a whole, and looking at Topics.

Suppose the Chart Ruler is in the 7th House....that's Angular, and (assuming it is otherwise in good condition) you could conclude that nearly all of what the Chart promises will be fulfilled --- it's just a matter of determining when (use Profections and Revolutions).

Now suppose the Chart Ruler is also the Wealth Ruler.....would you draw the same conclusion?

No....it's Angular in the Chart, but not to the Topic of Wealth....the 7th House would be Cadent to the 2nd House/Sign, and in fact the Topic Ruler can't even "see" the House/Sign it rules, and so it is powerless to do anything, regardless of its condition.

You can also view it as Public (Angular), semi-Private/semi-Public (Succeedent) and Private (Cadent).

Are all powerful men and women in the spotlight? On stage? In the news?

No....well, then you might want to look and see where the Topic Ruler (in the this instance the MC Ruler) is located. Same for those who have wealth...of any kind...how many times have you seen the modest person....only to discover much later that they have a rather fair amount of wealth (to a lot of wealth)?

You can also view look at those power regions in terms of "longevity." Some people retain their wealth and/or health their whole lives, while others see their health/wealth fade with age....or lose their friends....don't age gracefully....have fewer enemies....fewer employees...their power fades....their zeal for things religious, ideological, educational or philosophical wanes.

You're looking at something Cadent in the Chart; if not the Topic Ruler, then the Lot; or a Succeedent Topic Ruler/Cadent Lot; a Cadent Lot Ruler; an Angular Ruler but in poor condition with the Lot or Lot Ruler Cadent....it's there.

Anyway, if you want to research astrology, especially ancient astrology, then I would suggest the proper venue is a library -- like a university library, and not the internet
[deleted trolling comments - Moderator]
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Unread 06-11-2013, 09:51 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Holy Cr@p, Bob Zemco!

People have been speculating over your demise for months. People have looked for you on the internet, searched for you other places. To no avail.

And now Suddenly as if you had never left, and we were all gone in never-never land, you suddenly post!

Welcome Back, Dude!

(Sorry for hijacking the post)
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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:55 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year. I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past - perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure. I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.
Beware strange web-sites foisting bizarre theories on the unsuspecting.

This is just a misunderstanding by people who couldn't figure out the doctrine brought to us by an Eastern Greek....as opposed to the stupid Western Greeks. Eastern Greeks -- we're talking Lydians and Phrygians here...lived in Central Anatolia....yeah, modern Turkey.

Eastern Greeks were a conduit for information from Mesopotamia via the Sumerians. The Eastern Greeks passed on knowledge in math, science, astronomy and astrology first from the Amorites (mistakenly referred to as "Babylonians") and later from the Babylonians (mistakenly referred to as "Chaldeans") to the nucleus of what would later become "Western Civilization".....

This Eastern Greek -- Nechepso was his name -- espoused a doctrine of 8 power regions in the Chart, and you know them as Angular and Succeedent Houses/Signs.

That, is the source of the 8-Sign Zodiac Nonsense, in spite of the fact that Nechepso never said there were 8-Signs, rather he said there were 8 regions of power in the Chart.

Keywords are "Willing" (Angular), "Hoping" (Succeedent) and "Receding" (Cadent).

This doctrine impacts Natal, Mundane, Revolution, Horary and Electional Astrology.

A Planet will do whatever it will do....good or bad....if in one of the 8 power regions. Naturally, a Planet's condition will affect its ability to do whatever it will do.

This doctrine caused some confusion, leading some of the later astrologers, mostly Hellenistic --- like Dorotheus, but even Zael used it, to adopt the 7-Sign/House System of power, which was the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 12th Houses/Signs.

Surely you can see the confusion --- the MC can fall in the 9th, 10th or 11th House/Sign, and so how can you have a king with a 9th House MC or MC Ruler in the 9th?

And what about the 2nd House of Wealth?

That leads to weird things like the 15° Rule )Ptolemy) where a Planet within 15° of the Ascendant (or MC) is considered to be in the Asc/MC.

That's what happens when subtle (and not so subtle) nuances get lost with the transmission of knowledge over time. I don't think Nechepso & Co or Ptolemy & Co are necessarily wrong....in fact, I'm not even sure they were talking about the same thing, and there's every indication that the Asc/MC were treated separate and apart from the House/Signs.

Even so, they all still pretty much say the same thing, that there's a distinction between looking at the Chart as a whole, and looking at Topics.

Suppose the Chart Ruler is in the 7th House....that's Angular, and (assuming it is otherwise in good condition) you could conclude that nearly all of what the Chart promises will be fulfilled --- it's just a matter of determining when (use Profections and Revolutions).

Now suppose the Chart Ruler is also the Wealth Ruler.....would you draw the same conclusion?

No....it's Angular in the Chart, but not to the Topic of Wealth....the 7th House would be Cadent to the 2nd House/Sign, and in fact the Topic Ruler can't even "see" the House/Sign it rules, and so it is powerless to do anything, regardless of its condition.

You can also view it as Public (Angular), semi-Private/semi-Public (Succeedent) and Private (Cadent).

Are all powerful men and women in the spotlight? On stage? In the news?

No....well, then you might want to look and see where the Topic Ruler (in the this instance the MC Ruler) is located. Same for those who have wealth...of any kind...how many times have you seen the modest person....only to discover much later that they have a rather fair amount of wealth (to a lot of wealth)?

You can also view look at those power regions in terms of "longevity." Some people retain their wealth and/or health their whole lives, while others see their health/wealth fade with age....or lose their friends....don't age gracefully....have fewer enemies....fewer employees...their power fades....their zeal for things religious, ideological, educational or philosophical wanes.

You're looking at something Cadent in the Chart; if not the Topic Ruler, then the Lot; or a Succeedent Topic Ruler/Cadent Lot; a Cadent Lot Ruler; an Angular Ruler but in poor condition with the Lot or Lot Ruler Cadent....it's there.

Anyway, if you want to research astrology, especially ancient astrology, then I would suggest the proper venue is a library -- like a university library, and not the internet
[deleted trolling comments - Moderator]
A library, preferably an Academic library - good idea
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Last edited by wilsontc; 06-16-2013 at 04:18 AM.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 12:31 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Hey, Bob-- I see you've lost none of your old feistiness!

Just a footnote: Nechepso apparently was one of the pharaohs-- the Necho (aka Neko) who is mentioned in the Bible. (Reference by a credentialed Egyptologist available if I have time to scrounge for it.) Whether Necho could have founded a major Egyptian contribution to astrology is another question. Ancient authors loved to attribute their writings to more authoritative sources such as kings or gods, by way of giving their work more importance.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 06:03 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to write such a long post, Bob.
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Unread 06-14-2013, 06:18 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Great post about the 8th zodiac sign and the house..

Zodiac Rings
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Unread 06-15-2013, 12:49 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

waybread

The new administration set up in Egypt at Assurbanipal’s behest consisted again of the twenty governors and vice-kings appointed earlier by Esarhaddon. At the head of the list was Necho, who received Memphis and Sais as his share—two of the most important cities of the period.
varchive.org/necho I


When the twenty governors reached Nineveh, all save one were put to death: only Necho, vice-king of Memphis and Sais, was allowed to live. Assurbanipal, in need of a reliable ally to govern Egypt and keep it safe from the Ethiopians, chose Necho to be sent back to the country as its sole king. “And I, Assurbanipal, inclined towards friendliness, had mercy upon Necho, my own servant, whom Esarhaddon, my own father, had made king in Kar-bel-matate [Sais].” The king of Assyria secured Necho’s allegiance by “an oath more severe than the former. I inspired his heart with confidence, clothed him in splendid (brightly-colored) garments, laid upon him a golden chain as the emblem of his royalty~.~.~. Chariots, horses, mules, I presented to him for his royal riding. My officials I sent with him at his request.” \
Luckenbill, Records of Assyria II, 905, in Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 297
rahu
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Unread 06-15-2013, 02:59 AM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

Thanks, Rahu! It seems clear that Necho had contact with Babylon. Whether he actually developed the astrology that Hellenistic astrologers said he did is another interesting question. Necho is also credited with having his workers attempt to dig the first Suez canal (unsuccessful) and circumnavigate Africa (possibly successful) so he seems to have been quite a guy.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 09:32 PM
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Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it

there is another problem with necho.
though these accomplishments you mentioned are ascribed to necho, there is virtual no archeological remains. the only remains is a inscription on a votive piece for a apis bull.(i'll have to check on this ). there are no monuments , nothing... all we know is from herodotus.
if he was so powerful why are there no archeological remains?

rahu

Last edited by rahu; 06-16-2013 at 11:06 PM.
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