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  #276  
Unread 04-17-2012, 02:27 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Most of the commonly used quadrant house systems (not all) are actually divisions of the equator, with the "results" of the division expressed in celestial longitude, that is, along the ecliptic. But the divisions are actually equatorial and then projected onto the ecliptic.
This is a point I was trying to make in another thread. The Ascendant and Midheaven longitudes are first located on the ecliptic and a perpendicular is dropped to the celestial equator from each one, creating the Right Ascension Ascendant and MC. Using trigonmetry, the distance between these points along the equator is calculated and then divided either according to time or space (depending on house system) into three segments, after which a perpendicular is raised from each of the two intermediary points on the equator to the ecliptic, thus providing the zodiacal degree on each house boundary. I understand from reading an old book by Charles Jayne that L. Edward Johndro used this method to perform SA directions: first convert each planet's ecliptical longitude into Right Ascension, apply the Solar Arc increment to those positions, and than convert the new RA positions back into ecliptical longitude. This is also why Pluto with its exaggerated orbit can be in the 1st House by zodiacal longitude but its "rising point" as measured in Right Ascension can actually be in the 12th House when it is at its maximum northern celestial latitude. Some quadrant systems use the Prime Vertical instead of the celestial equator. For all practical purposes, Tables of House (and now computers) do all of the heavy lifting for us so the most we ever have to learn is double interpolation. As I understand it, Right Ascension is mainly used by astronomers to keep track of the diurnal motion - rising, culminating, setting - of all celestial bodies. While researching Right Ascension last year I found some excellent diagrams of the various quadrant systems in the Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology.

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  #277  
Unread 04-17-2012, 05:26 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Additionally, when we take the signficator of a house (like in horary this used much more), we are then simply looking at what that planet is doing with or to other planets to find an answer. Whereas, in natal astrology the placements of the planets seem to be emphasized. Therein, might be part of the conundrum when we speak about planets being in the 12th. They may actually still be in the ASC according to older rules. Perhaps the 12th is not directly above the ASC but farther up....

Also, this may be where the signs and houses started, at one point in recent (modern) history to be the same thing, like Aries=the 1st and Pisces the 12th, etc. Perhaps there is some division that we are not seeing there as well that distinguishes, along with the cusp of the houses, the difference between the ASC and the 12th.
But - what about all the births when the ascendant was in beginning of signs and planets were in the previous sign?

There must be many people born with ascendants at 0 to 10 degrees of a sign and planets in the previous sign. In that case are the planets not considered to be in the 12th house - even in whole house system?

My saturn was 20 degrees risen above the eastern horizon when I was born - would you consider that as the 1st house? Saturn was in 15 gemini and my ascendant is 5 cancer. Are you saying that the ancients would consider gemini to be my 1st house? That does not make sense! They are very clear about rising and setting planets and what that means.

Lets suppose: The chaldean king was born with jupiter at 21* aries and ascendant at 10* taurus. So would the ancients still consider jupiter to be in the 1st house? Would the king not be considered lucky anymore? Jupiter would not be considered as "rising" anymore?

Chaldea (modern day Iraq) is land bound on the east and west and somewhat mountainous - planets had to be risen quite a bit before they became visible on the eastern horizon - so they had to definitely be in the 12th house.

Last edited by Carris; 04-17-2012 at 05:32 AM.
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  #278  
Unread 04-17-2012, 08:23 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

In the example given, whole sign (ie, Hellenist astrology, not Babylonians or Egyptians) would consider the 1st house to be all of the sign of Taurus, and the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be in the 12th whole sign house.
But the ancients also considered the concept of "rising bow" and "descending bow" (see for example al-Biruni, 1058 AD), which were segments (!!) consisting of 3 houses:
+Risng Bow (considered auspicious as a segment, vide al-Biruni, also Maximus, etc) segments were houses (whole signs) 1,2, 3, and also 10, 11 and 12
+Descending Bow (considered unfortunate or difficult as a segment) segments were houses (whole signs) 4,5,6 and 7, 8, 9

So, in the given example, the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be:
a) in the 12th whole sign house
b) in the Rising Bow
...giving a mixed indication (delineation-wise) with a slightly more favorable cast to it because of the "benefic" quality of the planet concerned (Jupiter)
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  #279  
Unread 04-17-2012, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
But the ancients also considered the concept of "rising bow" and "descending bow" (see for example al-Biruni, 1058 AD), which were segments (!!) consisting of 3 houses:
+Risng Bow (considered auspicious as a segment, vide al-Biruni, also Maximus, etc) segments were houses (whole signs) 1,2, 3, and also 10, 11 and 12
+Descending Bow (considered unfortunate or difficult as a segment) segments were houses (whole signs) 4,5,6 and 7, 8, 9

So, in the given example, the king's Jupiter would have been considered to be:
a) in the 12th whole sign house
b) in the Rising Bow
...giving a mixed indication (delineation-wise) with a slightly more favorable cast to it because of the "benefic" quality of the planet concerned (Jupiter)
Hemisphere emphasis in 1058? Seems like it must be a vestige of the solar myth about the daily death and rebirth of the Sun.
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  #280  
Unread 04-17-2012, 02:35 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

In the interpretations by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, the risings of the planets are mentioned again and again: "If a child is born while Venus is rising, his life will be quiet, rich, wherever he goes he will be loved, he will live long. . ." (Gundel, 1933). "If a child is born at the instant of Jupiter rising and Mars setting, he will be lucky and will see the fall of his enemy" (Shulman, 1978).

The historians of astrology unanimously point out that rise, and increasingly with the Greeks also culmination, were considered to be the most important positions in the planets' diurnal motion (Boll, Bezold, Gundel, 1966; Henseling, 1924, van der Waerden, 1966, ). According to Plato, who believed the celestial bodies to be the visible gods, the gods were filled with a special joy at the instant of the planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, as well as upon meeting a planet with whom they were "on friendly terms" (Gundel, 1966).
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  #281  
Unread 04-17-2012, 03:22 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

heliacal rising: its when the planet becomes visible before the rising of the Sun, and it increases in light and it is very fast. In this moment as all the new things it is moist in temperament and very strong in the birth chart.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/the-sun-a...f-the-planets/

this is about planetary phase, not about house positions.......
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  #282  
Unread 04-17-2012, 04:06 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
heliacal rising: it’s when the planet becomes visible before the rising of the Sun, and it increases in light and it is very fast. In this moment as all the new things it is moist in temperament and very strong in the birth chart.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/the-sun-a...f-the-planets/

this is about planetary phase, not about house positions.......
No - it is about the houses. And by rising they mean the 12th house. I know because I got this historical material from a document about Gauquelin's work - which is definitely about the 12th and 9th houses.

"The historians of astrology unanimously point out that rise, and increasingly with the Greeks also culmination, were considered to be the most important positions in the planets' diurnal motion (Boll, Bezold, Gundel, 1966; Henseling, 1924, van der Waerden, 1966, ). According to Plato, who believed the celestial bodies to be the visible gods, the gods were filled with a special joy at the instant of the planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, as well as upon meeting a planet with whom they were "on friendly terms" (Gundel, 1966)."

culmination point in midheaven - this is about houses


Last edited by Carris; 04-17-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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  #283  
Unread 04-17-2012, 04:14 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Did the Babylonians even use a house system? I thought theirs was primarily a visual astrology
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  #284  
Unread 04-17-2012, 04:44 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

carris,

is the quote in your last post from (Gundel, 1966) in some way related to your earlier post where you quote from a very old document? if so, would you care to offer a link or book where all this is articulated and convinced you that it is about house position and not about planetary phase? thanks

much older source carris quotes further up in this thread.. "If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long.
If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long."

here is a bit more connected to the above passage with the malefic planets
32) If a child is born when Mars has come forth, (then) ......, hot (?) temper (?).
33) If a child is born when Saturn has come forth, (then his life? will be) dark, obscure, sick, and constrained./263/ . .

http://www.smoe.org/arcana/diss1.html
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  #285  
Unread 04-19-2012, 12:24 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Maybe the 12th has to do with "instant karma" as a form of spiritual growth? Since atleast the three of us are experiencing our 12th planets in this way. I wonder if other 12th people experience their 12th planets in a similar way.

It could also be seen in terms of the axis - since the 6th requires hard work to maintain our earthly selves, maybe the 12th requires this kind of "hard work" (i.e. to always have to be kind, compassionate, considerate, etc. Not allowed even an inch of deviation) to maintain our spiritual selves.

Also RIR, your venus is in a Gauquelin sector - do you have a venus type of career or vocation? Or do you have to work in a venus like way?
I have several planets in the plus zone.
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  #286  
Unread 04-19-2012, 06:00 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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I have several planets in the plus zone.
With Saturn and Neptune in my 12th, I often feel that I am prone to instant karma, and agree that it is part of my plan for accelerated spiritual growth in this lifetime. I think this is part of plan of 'collective awakening' as well, and that the generation of the conjunct of Uranus and Neptune will also experience something similar...
For me, Saturn [limitations and responsibilities] must be overcome by spiritual understandings [Neptune]. I might add that Neptune also relates to 'surrender and yielding'; as such I have had to learn to accept and discharge my karmic energies, without resisting them.
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  #287  
Unread 04-20-2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Maybe the 12th has to do with "instant karma" as a form of spiritual growth? Since atleast the three of us are experiencing our 12th planets in this way. I wonder if other 12th people experience their 12th planets in a similar way.
********************

Yes I have to agree in my case that planets <Sun, Uranus, Pluto conjunctions> in my 12th house have been a constant form of spiritual growth, I seem to be drawn to this no matter what I do, and it started with unfortunate incidents that happened in my early childhood.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3691
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  #288  
Unread 04-20-2012, 01:26 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by BOOGY99 View Post
********************

Yes I have to agree in my case that planets <Sun, Uranus, Pluto conjunctions> in my 12th house have been a constant form of spiritual growth, I seem to be drawn to this no matter what I do, and it started with unfortunate incidents that happened in my early childhood.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3691
Thanks Kimbermoon, Boogy99

Now thats 6 of us who experience this "instant karma" aspect of the 12th house - looks like there might be something to it. Does the karma seem to come in the form of the 12th planet? For example a 12th saturn chastizes harshly. Perhaps a 12th moon would chastize through emotions, feelings, moodyness. Whereas eaygoing jupiter and venus would be gentler.

Do you also find this to be true about your 12th house planets: The Gauquelin 12th seems to harness qualities of its planets for goodness and service of mankind eg. The qualities of mars (energy, aggression, impatience, impulsiveness, courage, dynamism, injuries) is harnessed and channelled for the benefit and service of mankind as doctors, surgeons, sports persons, military people, business executives. Similarly, the discipline, patience, structure, depth, caution, responsibility, stability, endurance of saturn is harnessed to make scientists and physicians that serve mankind.

What you say about being drawn to the 12th could be true because of your sun in the 12th: "The Sun is our ego, the part of us that censors our "inner child", reasons things out, and makes final decisions. Its the "boss" of our chart..." and "....Though one might think that the traits of their Sun would come easy to them, the truth is, the Sun shows what we are learning to be." http://cafeastrology.com/sun.html
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  #289  
Unread 04-20-2012, 09:24 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

12th house moon doesn't chastize, usually.
Tend to wallow in emotional pools ~ resubmerging with reborn understanding and forgiveness/letting go is key to their emotional well being.
saturn conj. moon in 12th might chastize through squashing of feelings ~ playing on piscean weakness but even so, with betterment in mind. or do you mean more like flaggelation?
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  #290  
Unread 04-21-2012, 12:16 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I am very glad to see a thread that questions what the 12th house truly means. i would not call myself an astrologer by any means. I am a student and an experiential learner, so I spend time pondering my chart and the charts of those i know well.

I have Chiron and Saturn in my 12th house and I must say the vague interpretations I get for these placements feel all wrong. I have a "spiritual wound" and repression? What does that even mean?

Have I been hurt and repressed by religion as someone suggested? Yes - but isn't that a 9th house matter?

Do I self-injure and repress myself? Well, I guess we all trip ourselves up from time to time, and we all repress. It's called self-discipline. If we didn't, the world would be an unpleasant land of pure id! All that "you do it to yourself" stuff sounds like it belongs in the 1st house to me.

What does make sense to me is that the 12th house represents mystery and secrets, and what we can't explain or control. Maybe that's why we can't put our finger on exactly what "it" is. Have I been hurt deeply by something I could not control, explain or ever understand - and been more hurt by the inexplicable nature of it all than the actual wrong? Oh Yes. Do I tend to nurse those wounds in secret? Yes. Do I often hold back because some inexplicable feeling - call it instinct or intuition - tells me I should? Yes. Have I observed a heightened awareness that we are all ultimately mysteries to one another activated by those who put a lot of planets in my 12th house? Yes.

Just my experience and grist for the mill. Your mileage may vary and all that.
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  #291  
Unread 04-21-2012, 06:19 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
12th house moon doesn't chastize, usually.
Tend to wallow in emotional pools ~ resubmerging with reborn understanding and forgiveness/letting go is key to their emotional well being.
saturn conj. moon in 12th might chastize through squashing of feelings ~ playing on piscean weakness but even so, with betterment in mind. or do you mean more like flaggelation?
I don't know if its flagellation exactly - but there are immediate, severe consequences whether emotional or external. Actually, we are experiencing what Gaer described:

"...I would interpret my own 12th house experiences as incredibly intense. I can never shake a very strong feeling that "the hour of midnight is about to arrive", and by that I mean that the time for change is NOW. For me wrong actions, including any kind of cruelty or selfishness, have immediate, powerful consequences. I literally get sick when I lose my temper unfairly, lash out at people impatiently, or - worst of all - appoint myself judge and jury in a way that tells me I have the right to look down on other people."

"...Sort of a cold-hearted judge, condemning other people whom I did not see as worthy of being respected or deserving compassion/mercy. Everytime I go in that direction in this life, I get totally slammed. I see other people getting away with it, although I am sure that ultimately it will destroy them too. For me it feels as though I get no breaks in that direction, and it feels RIGHT that I don't get them. At some point we become aware of incredible faults, and ignorance is no longer a defense. We feel that they are deeply ingrained, habits, and suddenly they just don't work any more. We HAVE to change."

"...Look at my chart, then consider someone with the 12th house placements I have who is not compassionate. I think we all have to learn compassion, but I had a mega-dose of experiences coming my way that would show me I had no choice but to change. I went through deep depression, but I coped. At about age 30, I was knocked on my butt, and in the years that followed, during the Saturn transits to my 2nd house, I felt as if everything had been taken away from me. It was a very "internal" experience."

And RIR:

"...Venus in 2626’ Leo in the twelfth house and Virgo on the Asc.....tendencies of intolerance, arrogance, superiority, and judgment... Fortunately I have learned early on how destructive these traits can be, and I have humbled myself tremendously, although I have a ways to go still. I receive no leniency in this area either; when I resort to these old habits, I am immediately chastised, whereas, like you said, other people seem to get away with it. "

Also StillOne, Kimbermoon, Boogy99 and I have experienced this "instant chastising" effect. So thats why the 12th is about spiritual growth - it forces us to see the importance of compassion - and saturn shows this to us in a very harsh but very effective manner.

VestaMoon

Thanks! Yes, all of us 12th house people feel the same way about our placements - the traditional interpretations are all wrong - or maybe times and situations have changed so much that they no longer hold good. People in ancient times probably didn't have the knowledge and resources to be "compassionate, selfless, spiritual" - thats all. But if you see my post quoting chaldean astrology - they considered planets in the 12th to be the strongest and most influential in the chart. And Gauquelin also found this to be true in his statistical research. He found saturn in 12th in charts of prominent scientists and physicians. Are you a scientist or a physician or work in a scientific way?

Last edited by Carris; 04-21-2012 at 06:39 AM.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 07:20 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

The human environment does change; human nature does not.

The spirit and the flesh cannot be divorced. Without flesh the spirit cannot grow, for it is unmanifest.

"...traditional interpretations are all wrong." That may or may not be so. My experience leads me to disagree. But whatever the case, I would be slow to cast out tradition. 2000 years of tradition is quite likely to hold some merit. Perhaps it is our understanding that is thin.

May I suggest the essential meaning of the Twelfth House? It is -- Loss of the Ego. It is the abandonment of the illusion of personal power. It is the house of Submission, and of Humility. It is Sacrifice of the Self to the Higher Self.

But all those traditions about prisons and monastery cells, hospitals and asylums, bereavement and mourning, and the destruction or loss of the self are not wrong. Those things are the means by which we meet our arrogance, and learn humility.

Mohandas K. Gandhi said something to the effect that "No man can attain to spiritual enlightenment without first becoming more humble than the dust beneath his sandals." And by the way Gandhi was killed by his Twelfth House Mars, the assassin. I use a different chart than is commonly employed for Gandhi.

There is no spiritual enlightenment, no salvation, but by the Grace of God. And that cannot be won or earned. It is given by grace. When Jesus was asked how he performed his miracles, he replied, "It is not I who do these works, but my father who doeth them through me." And Jesus also said "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." That is a very 12th House idea; it expresses the essence of the house.

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  #293  
Unread 04-21-2012, 09:02 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I am inclined to agree with Greybeard. Astrology has been around a long time so there must be something in 'old' interpretations - however translating them for a modern society has to be carefully done.

ie - your finished/end up in prison/mental institution - never going to amount to anything! fatalistic.The house of affairs. Like all the houses it has it's shadow side. I wil refresh some postson 12th house planets.

the 12th house of pisces - you cant boast about planets here. ie I am sooo spiritual cos then you just havent connected with that energy. that is something else in your chart.

to connect with people's suffering can suck you in and take you down under deep into the ocean - until there is nothing left of you. it takes a lot of self mastery to seperate from this. hence the house of retreats, convent, monasteries/hospitals - for the person with 12th planets.

I do think that people with planets in 12th H are very often misunderstood.Perhaps moreso today than in history. ie convents and monasteries are closing, a week on a greek island isnt the same really. It is the house of secrets hidden from society. Having planets here may allow you to see what others do not wish to deal with ie prisons etc.The house that is traditionally ruled by jupiter and now ruled by neptune!

I have mars in libra in this house. Great to know about the assasination.

it is a struggle to bring that energy out into the open. so there is dark 'stuff' in the 12th too.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 11:01 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I don't know where most of this service to others is coming from, but that is ruled by the 6th house i.e. the 6th, 7th and 8th houses all have to do with "others".

The 1st, 2nd and 12th houses are the "self" houses. So I guess the 12th House has to do with the "service-to-self" regime? Also x=/=y=/=z (in other words Pisces=/=12th House=/= Neptune), just too let the people who have posted that Pisces is Neptune like in house and sign. Just so others know the difference.

Perhaps many of us don't feel (or haven't felt) "spiritual enlightenment", which is why some of us don't comprehend (or visualize) what others on this board do. I have Jupiter and Venus in the 12th Libra, and I can honestly (and personaly) say that I have never felt anything "spiritual" about me in any way, from the past to the present. I am religious (Christain), but I don't think that's the type of "spirituality being talked about here".

Just my two cents....
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Unread 04-21-2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

This came to mind after I posted.

the chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet. The Monasteries were pillaged and monks murdered.(defenceless people). Now the Chinese did not do this because these people were powerless. (although they had few weapons)

In trying to understand why the chinese would do this. why not just imprison the monks? you get some understanding of the power(hidden) of the 12th house and how this is percieved.

the destruction of people of faith is seen over and over again in history.

I have been reading about the Cathars recently and medieval history. Same scenario.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 12:43 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Gandhi's Mars in Scorpio in the 12th conjunct Venus...His lusty nature was the source of longstanding guilt. This eventually led to his becoming celibate even though married. He was willling to sacrifice anything to achieve his aims. He spent lots of time in jail. Eventually it took his wife. He was devious and subtle; he would take your Empire from you by gathering salt. And at the last, it was a bullet fired from the gun of an unknown assailant that took him down.

These are all the type of things that tradition might suggest for Mars in the 12th House....and none of them are pleasant. What spirituaity there is in these facts only Mr. Gandhi could tell us.

I like to think that I use astrology as a tool to assist myself and others in their spiritual unfoldment. But it is not the responsibility of the astrologer to cultivate the soul of the client. That task falls on the client and no one else.

Astrology is, at base, a psychological charting of the essential nature of an individual as he or she is faced with the myriad possibilities of surrounding circumstances. Astrology is concerned with manifest reality. Its basis is manifest reality. The astrological chart does not distinguish between good and evil; it merely portrays what is.

I worked in a home for unwanted kids. One day we had a staff meeting and discussed our real problems: food, education, water supply, that sort of thing. It was a productive meeting; we resolved some issues. When we were ready to adjourn, a kind Christian lady who worked in the office, overcome by feeling, blurted out "But what about their Souls?" And I could not help but recall Benjamin Franklin's old saying: "It is hard for an empty sack to stand upright."

I had a friend with the Sun in Scorpio, Leo rising, and Pluto square the Sun from the 12th House. At the age of 9 he had been put on a sidewalk in Las Vegas and abandoned by his parents; they just drove away and never came back. Of the 45 years he spent on this planet, 18 of them were spent in prestigious maximum security prisons across the country. Crime and drugs were his life, and he told me once that all of his sorrows in life were due to one thing: his totally self-centered nature. Me, me, me. At the age of 45, his health irremediably and painfully taken from him, he committed suicide. On the day of his death transiting Pluto was at exactly 45 degrees 00 minutes from the radical Sun. It had come out of the 12th House..... He had failed to "kill his ego" on his own; therefore fate came in and did it for him.

You folks can talk "spirituality" until you're blue in the face. The reality of the 12th House is very real, and it is a place of sorrow and suffering. The 12th House contains some beautiful things. But that beauty is rooted in suffering, loneliness, treachery and sadness. You learn compassion through personal suffering. You learn about human weakness by having your own weakness exposed. So go ahead and pretty up the 12th House...fill it with flowers and hanging tapestries, and pretend it's a delightful place to live.....But be aware, things are going to go Bump in the Night despite your illusions and unrealistic expectations.
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Re: The Twelfth House

hi greybread.. thanks for your 2 posts here.. leo is a pretty self centered sign and i would attribute a good chunk of the sun/pluto square and the transit of same pluto back to the leo emphasis.. i think astrology is quite capable of mixing up where an energy is coming from.. that is my take and sorry to hear of the loss of your friend in those hard circumstances.. we all have something to work thru.
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
And Jesus also said "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." That is a very 12th House idea; it expresses the essence of the house.
If we look at the horoscope as "A Tree", 1st house is where the original seed first sprout, AC, the 4th house as IC "the Root", the deepest part of "the Tree" where life's sources is generated.

Then the 7th house DC representing where one life meets another life. With the support of the original life "the Seed", "the Root" and "the other Life" we can reach to our highest point at the 10th house, MC.

As this tree grows older becoming more matured, then the tree becoming old and weak (when our heart is soften and humble), then the tree shall form seeds to extend it's own life.

Without the death of seed coat, the central part of the Seed, Embryo will never be released to see the sunlight, so new life will not be formed. The death of seed coat, I believed is located in the 12th house, where the New Seed meets the original "Seed", the fruits of your life.
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I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World

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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
I don't know where most of this service to others is coming from, but that is ruled by the 6th house i.e. the 6th, 7th and 8th houses all have to do with "others".

The 1st, 2nd and 12th houses are the "self" houses. So I guess the 12th House has to do with the "service-to-self" regime? Also x=/=y=/=z (in other words Pisces=/=12th House=/= Neptune), just too let the people who have posted that Pisces is Neptune like in house and sign. Just so others know the difference.

Perhaps many of us don't feel (or haven't felt) "spiritual enlightenment", which is why some of us don't comprehend (or visualize) what others on this board do. I have Jupiter and Venus in the 12th Libra, and I can honestly (and personaly) say that I have never felt anything "spiritual" about me in any way, from the past to the present. I am religious (Christain), but I don't think that's the type of "spirituality being talked about here".

Just my two cents....
care to show your chart? corresponding houses to orientation in time and space, the personal houses are 1-4, the social houses are 5-8, and lastly the universal or transpersonal houses are 9-12.

The Universal, or Transpersonal signs and houses are post-moral. Here, the perspective has widened and broadened to include me and you and everybody, everywhere, all the time. The Universal orientation relates to anyone or anything in the past, present or future. It believes in the principals of law, order, justice, and doing what is right because it is right. It is concerned with the highest ethics, not personal or social morality.
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Pluto square the Sun from the 12th House.
Thanks for this story greybeard. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I think this goes to show what the potential is for energies emanating from the 12th house. As you said, there was a square aspect prevalent in this case involving the Sun and Pluto. If I'm not mistaken, the square aspect is one of the most challenging, if not the most challenging aspect to have. It affected this individual profoundly. As we saw, Scorpio was also a part of this and so we can see that signs certainly matter as well as planet placement.

I really do believe that the 12th is vast and don't believe it plays out the same for everyone. I think signs, planets and aspects here can change this house exponentially in various ways.

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
You folks can talk "spirituality" until you're blue in the face.
I still believe for some, that this is a spiritual house. As stated above it depends on the particulars involved. Also, potentially in combination with generational planets posited elsewhere in the chart we can see aspects appear which will trigger spiritual awakening from this house.

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
hi greybread.. thanks for your 2 posts here.. leo is a pretty self centered sign and i would attribute a good chunk of the sun/pluto square and the transit of same pluto back to the leo emphasis.. i think astrology is quite capable of mixing up where an energy is coming from.. that is my take and sorry to hear of the loss of your friend in those hard circumstances.. we all have something to work thru.
Indeed, it seems leo would most definitely be very challenged by a square from pluto...
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